Episode #160: Infusing Meaning In Our Worship Meetings

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I believe that one of the things
that we as orthodox Mormons are

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called to do was to preserve the
truth of the restoration.

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They've been discarded.
Now, while that statement on the

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surface seems pretty
straightforward, it's actually a

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little more complex than we
might think.

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In order to fulfill that part of
our mission, it requires us to

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take a look at what we do and
then make the determination that

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what in our practices are
doctrine versus tradition.

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Then to complicate the subject
even more, we have to ask the

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question, is this a good
tradition or a harmful

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tradition?
Sometimes identifying what is

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tradition versus doctrine is
really made manifest in how we

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conduct our worship meetings.
On this episode, Justin Frankham

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and Adam Posey join me for a
discussion on this very topic.

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Through the course of our
conversation, we cover the good

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and bad aspects of tradition and
how to tell the difference, what

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the Lord has to say concerning
what must be present in our

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worship services, the
differences in Mormonism and

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other religions, and finally,
what we can do to infuse more

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meaning into our worship
meetings.

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That and more on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade Podcast.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Well, we're going to do the
thing again where we get more

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than one person on.
You know, when I first started

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this, I was really nervous that
they wouldn't come through, but

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they've been some of the better,
better episodes I think I've

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had.
But today we're going to talk

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about something that, that, you
know, it, it's kind of funny,

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both of the gentleman that's
here with us, Adam Hosey and

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Justin Frankham, they, they both
talk to me separately at

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different times about infusing
more meaning into our meetings

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As Mormons and as
fundamentalists, we don't

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necessarily have the blessing of
a lot of structure and, and that

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that's a good thing, but it's
also, if it's left unchecked, it

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becomes a bad thing as well.
And so both Adam and and Justin

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have talked to me, like I said,
about being able to infuse more

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meaning into, into our services
as as independent Mormons,

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because it, it gets tough to do
without kind of a bunch of

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structure, but I believe it can
be done.

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We're just going to have to be
very deliberate at it.

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So let's, let's start with you,
Adam, What, what was your

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impetus for this?
What brought this to mind for

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you?
So in some way it was like my

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own ignorance.
So I was born and raised a

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Catholic, right?
And so that's still really like,

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like I got a very Irish family
and that's still really

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important to some of the older
members of my family.

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So my my parents visited.
OK, So for anybody that doesn't

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know, I live down at like the
very bottom of Texas.

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It is a very long flight to get
here.

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You have to connect once or
twice, depending on where you're

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coming from.
Traveling here is a big

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challenge.
Well, for the first time, my

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grandmother, actually, she lives
in Indiana.

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She left Indiana and came to to
Texas.

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She'd never been to Texas.
She flies all the way down here.

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She's 85 or 84.
I mean, she's getting up there

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and she's still very sharp, but
she's just, you know, like she's

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reaching the end.
And so the opportunity for her

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to come down here and to visit
the family and to see everybody

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was was awesome.
But she had to come over a

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weekend and she doesn't miss
Mass.

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OK.
So she's here.

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She's visiting.
My parents have particularly my

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mother just kind of has a, a
chip on her shoulder about the

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Catholic Church for reasons we
don't necessarily have to get

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into now.
So I, I volunteered to take my

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grandmother, right.
It was, it was a bilingual Mass.

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She doesn't exactly speak
Spanish, but it was the only one

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we could find that even had any
English in it in this area.

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And so I said, that's fine.
I'll just, I'll just go with

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you.
And my two older kids said,

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well, well, you know, we've
never seen what Catholics do

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like to see that too.
And so I said, OK, let's all go.

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So we go to this Mass and I know
all the rituals because I grew

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up that way and I haven't been
inside of a Catholic Church in

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20 years.
But it was like everything just

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started coming back to me.
Like, oh, yeah, we do that.

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We do that, We do that, We do
that.

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Well, now, now that I've got
this very modest religious

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understanding, right?
Like I think I don't even get

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close to guys like you and
Justin or our friends Taylor or

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Michael or Jeff Wall or just
these, these these guys that

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just know a lot of stuff about
doctrine and about the tradition

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and about the history and
spirituality.

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I I'm not there right.
I got a little bit, but I have

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just enough that when I sat
through this mass, I could pick

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out all these little components
of meaning that I had never

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known as a child.
And I started paying attention

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as it was going on and I went
whoa.

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Like, there's a lot here where
the, you know, where the they

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call it the community, but it's
the sacrament.

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It's the bread and wine.
Where the bread and wine is, is,

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is is kept.
Where are the priest faces,

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which prayers you kneel to?
The number of times you repeat

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something like I just started
catching all these little

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things, the design of the
church.

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And I'm thinking, well, wait a
minute.

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We as Mormons have this
profoundly deep tradition that

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Hugh Nibbly has proven beyond a
doubt goes way far back.

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How is it that our Sunday
services are not filled with a

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commensurate level of like
meaning?

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Because a lot of times I think
the little subtleties of this

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meaning, although they might be
rigidly structured, Orient your

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soul, your mind, your spirit,
just just get you subconsciously

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oriented to like the atoning
sacrifice of Jesus Christ,

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right?
So my, my thought was like,

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well, wait a minute, we could do
better than this, you know, And

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so then that's when I called you
and just started saying, hey,

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man, here's all these ideas that
I have, you know, like what

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about this thing or what if we
did that?

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Or why why don't we do this?
And I've actually called quite a

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few people and had the same
discussion.

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And what I've got is mostly,
well, that's not the tradition

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and, and, and the Bible and the
Book of Mormon and the Doctrine

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Covenants, they lay out some
specific details of different

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components of our meetings.
But none of it really adds up to

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a requirement to say like be
ritualistic in the way that the

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Orthodoxy, the Orthodox people
or the Catholic people, etcetera

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are.
And so we don't do those kinds

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of things, right.
It seems almost like like, like

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structure precludes the presence
of the spirit in the minds of a

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lot of the people I've asked.
So that was the thing that got

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me to think about it.
And that is so far where I've

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gotten to with the conversations
that I've had with people who

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have seemed interested in this.
Very cool.

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Justin, what was, what was, what
prompted you to have this?

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Because we've talked about this
before now and, and we did do an

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episode on the Eastern Orthodox
Church, but it was from a, a, a

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place of, you know, we can go
back in history and look at

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splits and, and look at schisms
and that sort of thing.

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But I know that you kind of took
a deep dive a little bit on

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there on, on some of the Eastern
Orthodox thing.

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What What prompted some of that
for you?

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Yeah, so you're right.
The main emphasis on that was

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more of just some interesting
patterns and more in the context

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of, you know, schisms and splits
within religious organizations.

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However, one of my big takeaways
from that though, was I I did

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find the way that they
worshipped to be very beautiful.

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And there was there's things of
value in the way that they were

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doing things, in my opinion.
I guess for me though, I was

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thinking more along the lines of
how a lot of those similarities

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and things are more attached to
to our Mormon temple worship.

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However, one of the big
takeaways I had from that whole

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thing was this idea of search
franchises, rather than a single

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monolithic authority
micromanaging every aspect of a

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church's worship, this idea of
more of a franchises where

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different, different churches
could meet the needs of their

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membership in different ways.
And I realized when I started

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going through the scriptures and
looking at this, the framework

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set forth for, for Sundays and,
and, you know, going to church

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and Mormonism is incredibly,
incredibly minimalistic, right?

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There's not a whole lot really
there.

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And Doctrine Covenants, it says,
you know, do this, do, don't do

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that.
And so well, which church is

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doing it right?
You know, because I mean, in the

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LDS Church, things are very,
very organized and patterned in

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a certain way.
And when I became

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fundamentalists, started looking
at the way the fundamentalists

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do things are a lot of that was
really different.

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A lot of things are the same,
but a lot of things are also

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really different.
And when I went to try to try to

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figure out, well, which, which
one is right?

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I mean, it's hard to say because
this the actual scriptures are

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pretty ambiguous about a lot of
how you do that.

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And the most definitive things I
could find, in my opinion is, is

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something from Section 59 in
Doctrine Covenants where it just

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basically says and that thou
mayest more fully keep thyself

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unspotted from the world.
Thou shalt go to the House of

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prayer and OfferUp thy
sacraments upon my holy day.

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For verily, this is a day
pointed unto you to rest from

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your laborers, and to pay thy
devotions under the Most High.

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Nevertheless thy thou shall be
offered up in righteousness and

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all the days and at all times.
But remember that on this the

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Lord's day, thou shalt offer
thine oblations and thy

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sacraments unto the Most High,
confessing thy sins unto thy

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brethren before the Lord.
And on this day thou shalt do no

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other thing, only let thy food
be prepared with singleness of

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heart, that thy fasting may be
perfect, or in other words, that

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thy joy may be full.
Barely.

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This is fasting in prayer.
In other words, rejoicing in

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prayer.
And as much as we do these

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things with Thanksgiving, with
cheerfulness heart, with

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cheerful hearts and
countenances, with not much

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laughter, for this is sin, but
with a glad heart and a cheerful

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countenance, countenance barely.
I say that in as much as you do

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this, the fullness of the earth
is yours.

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And there's more obviously it
continues on.

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But that the main point there
though is, you know, there's

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only a few things in here that
are really kind of specific

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talking about what do you do at
church, You know, and it's

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you're supposed to on the Lord's
Day, you're supposed to have

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sacraments, right?
It says that this is a day also

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for fasting and prayer outside
of church.

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It talks about, you know,
confessing.

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And, you know, I got some
different thoughts on that.

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It's a tightly different topic,
but but basically that that's a

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that's there's not a lot there,
right?

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It's not saying like, you know,
you have to have an opening hymn

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that you have to have assigned
speakers or that you're supposed

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to have the, you know, the
person that conduct is supposed

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to randomly choose people.
Or I mean, it's, there's not a

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whole lot there, in my opinion,
in the, in the scriptures

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defining how this is supposed to
be done.

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And what occurred to me is that
rather than which way is right,

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it's more of, well, which way is
best because I can see different

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people having different needs at
different times.

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A lot of the ways, you know, you
look at how cultures evolve and

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develop and you know, there's, I
think there's a lot of beauty to

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different cultures throughout
the world.

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I think that there's, there's
beauty and finding, you know,

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the way different ways that
people pray in different ways

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that people organize socially
and, and have holidays.

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You know, I spend a lot of time
in Korea and a lot of their

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national holidays totally
different from American

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holidays, but they were very
beautiful in their own way.

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And so to me, it was like, I
think there's a lot of room here

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really to, I wouldn't say
necessarily innovate, but to

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apply the principles in
different ways.

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And I could see a certain
community where something really

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kind of flexible and, and less
organized could be really well.

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And I can see another community
where we're having, you know,

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more strict and specific ritual
even in Sunday could be

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00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,160
appropriate as well.
So I'm not, it's not so much as

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that.
I I think that this needs to be

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applied so much as I think that
there's more room to improve on

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00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,760
these things.
So.

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00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,760
Hold, hold on one second.
I think Justin hits a good point

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00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,240
here, which is in, in the
conversation we're going to

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00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,080
have.
I'm not telling anybody, Hey,

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00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,880
you need to change up your
meetings, right?

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00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,680
That's not I, I don't think any
of us, that's what we're saying.

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00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,720
I think what we are saying
though, is that there may be

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some options available to us,
right?

254
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,840
And fundamentalism is a funny
thing, right?

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00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,520
Because we're, we're doing our
best to hold kind of the old

256
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,520
doctrines, right?
And, but sometimes it's easy to

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00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:40,480
conflate doctrine and tradition.
And I, I think that it's one of

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00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,280
those things that, hey, well,
this is the way this guy did it

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00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,120
and that's the way he did it
before him.

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00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,480
And when you go back, maybe it's
just a matter of, well, that's

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00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,360
just kind of how it was done,
right?

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00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,880
And so again, we're not trying
to say anybody has to change

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00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,200
anything up.
We're just saying that that

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00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:58,880
there could be more flavors to
this.

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00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,680
And all three of us have at
least ventured outside the

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00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,520
Mormon bubble, right?
Adam, correct me if I'm wrong.

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00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,880
You lived in Utah for a while,
right?

268
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,400
No, no, no, no.
Missouri, Missouri.

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00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,680
Yeah, Arizona and Missouri.
No Utah.

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00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,680
OK, Justin, I know, I know spent
a great deal of time in Utah.

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I spent a lot of time in
southern Idaho, which is

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00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,760
northern Utah and Utah itself,
right?

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00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,960
And so, and you know, I, I was,
when I, when I became a Mormon,

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00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:33,000
I was in that bubble, right?
And I remember, I, I, when we

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00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,600
moved to Maryland, I was
shocked, right?

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00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,600
In some ways when it came to
church because I just, you know,

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00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,400
you always hear the line.
The church is the same

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00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,200
everywhere you go now it that's
kind of true, but there are

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00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,640
flavors, right?
Like I we were, we were out on

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00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,360
the Eastern Shore of Maryland
and there's a lot of Baptists

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00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,840
out there.
There was a lot of Pentecostals.

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00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,760
There was, you know, a fair
amount of Catholics, but it it

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00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,320
would be nothing to hear, you
know, a southern Amen come from

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00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,640
the congregation midway through
the through you know what

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00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,440
whoever was given a talk, right,
And that's something as a

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00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,200
Mormon, you're just not used to
hearing.

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00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,240
If you come from Idaho or Utah,
right, And you're you just find

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00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,560
myself looking back going what
what the hell was that?

289
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,480
But but there, you know, the the
vocabulary was a little

290
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,200
different.
I remember a woman got up and

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00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,920
she in a kind of a southern
accent was like, I just got to

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00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,160
say, I love my Jesus, right.
And I was like, well, I suppose

293
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,480
there's nothing doctrinally
wrong with that, but it just, it

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00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,760
was kind of jarring, right,
Because you weren't used to it.

295
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,280
And then I remember when I
became a fundamentalist, you

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00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,800
know, on the website, it was
like, well, come on over, we're

297
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,160
just like the LDS church, we're
going to look really similar.

298
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,920
And I got over, I'm like, no,
you're not, No, you're not.

299
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,400
And and that's a good thing,
right?

300
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,560
And so again, I tell that
saying, Hey, we, we're not

301
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,880
saying anybody has to do
anything different, but more

302
00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:01,000
that as Justin pointed out in
DNC 59, we're, we're kind of

303
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,040
given some leeway with our, with
our Sunday meetings here, right?

304
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,440
It, it seems to be the big point
is keep it holy, have the

305
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,119
sacrament and then it kind, then
the Lord seems to kind of lead

306
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,079
this up to us.
So Adam, I, I didn't mean to cut

307
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:15,240
you off there.
What were you going to say?

308
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:17,720
No, you pretty much took the
words out of my mouth.

309
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,960
I was just going to say, I mean,
yeah, I think I think you hit it

310
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,839
right on the head with the idea
that different congregations

311
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:26,560
with different people in
different places at different

312
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,440
times have different needs.
And what might work for one

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00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,520
group doesn't necessarily work
for another one.

314
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,520
And the Scripture does not
prescribe uniformity in the way

315
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,520
that I think that we wind up
with it or try to go after it.

316
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,160
You know what I mean?
Yeah, absolutely.

317
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,240
Let's do this.
You know, talking about that

318
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,920
uniformity, you know, that's
exactly right.

319
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,880
It doesn't.
But it's funny because so one of

320
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,680
the interesting things when I
was on my mission in South

321
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,280
Korea, one of the differences
that I noticed over there was

322
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,160
they would almost always have a
pitcher of water on the

323
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,960
sacrament table.
And, you know, they'd uncover

324
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,200
that and they'd bless the
sacrament with that picture

325
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,480
there.
And they didn't do that in the

326
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,120
States.
I mean, maybe they do, I don't

327
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:12,800
know.
It's been a while since I've

328
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:13,880
been to an all these
congregation.

329
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,560
But typically, I mean, they
still had trays and little cups

330
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,400
and things like that, but they'd
have that set up.

331
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,640
And they also would have a
pitcher set aside or a tea

332
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,640
kettle.
And I was a major, I was like,

333
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,440
so what's up with this?
This is kind of different.

334
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,600
And I was told, oh, well, this
is in case, you know, we run out

335
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,400
that way we don't have to bless
anymore.

336
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,200
It's still there.
And we can, you know, put some

337
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,160
more cups in the tray and fill
it and pass it around.

338
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,320
And I remember the time I
thought, oh, OK, that makes a

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00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,120
lot of sense.
But my companion was like, oh,

340
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:47,040
this is this is this is heresy.
This, this is wrong.

341
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,560
And, you know, he tried to
convince me that that this is a

342
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,520
bad thing and that because it's
different and it's different for

343
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,040
no good reason, it's not a big
deal if you need to bless more

344
00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,520
water and it almost never gets
needed anyways.

345
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,800
And he was saying he was afraid
that it would turn into

346
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,360
tradition.
And honestly, I could kind of

347
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:10,000
understand that perspective as
well, though, because, you know,

348
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,440
you're at a small little branch
in South Korea with 10 people

349
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,040
there.
They cut a tray with, you know,

350
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,600
15 cups of water and a pitcher.
And it's like, well, why are

351
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,880
they clearly they're not going
to need any more.

352
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,800
But it was like, no, you have to
do this because it starts

353
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:33,360
becoming tradition.
And so I kind of get where where

354
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:36,600
my companion was coming from,
but I think that the answer

355
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,760
isn't necessarily more
conformity, but a release from

356
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,400
that belief in the need for
conformity.

357
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,760
Because even there there was
that that culture tends to

358
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,960
create this, this this kind of
standard.

359
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,720
And then you have to do it.
And then is it symbolic?

360
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,840
Maybe maybe the picture
represents the body of Christ

361
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,720
and these are his parts.
Or, you know, you start

362
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,920
developing theology around
something that was an innovation

363
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,640
that was totally.
Had completely practical

364
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,400
intentions and purposes to then
become something else.

365
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,920
But then again too, I also
wonder, is even that a bad thing

366
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:19,080
to to find greater meaning or
connection and in the things

367
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,040
that we do.
Like when I read a book, I try

368
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,400
to understand the author's
perspective, but I'm also, I

369
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,040
read my own beliefs into what I
read.

370
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,600
And by doing that, I can find a
lot of value in reading a, a

371
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,520
book that generally, you know,
has ideas that I'm completely

372
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,120
opposed to, but it can be
interesting and I can get

373
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:39,960
something from it by, well, I
don't agree with the author's

374
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,760
perspective, but man, if I
connect with my beliefs on this

375
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,880
and my beliefs on that, there's
something interesting there

376
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,000
after all.
And I mean, is that a bad thing?

377
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,080
I mean, it's, I don't think it
is academically.

378
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,600
And so I, I mean, I don't know,
it's some interesting questions.

379
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,480
Absolutely.
What?

380
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,840
Let me ask this question to both
of you and then I want to move

381
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,600
on to what each of your
experiences have been as you've

382
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,360
kind of ventured out Adam's
experience at Mass.

383
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:10,800
And then Justin, did you ever
make it out to a Eastern

384
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,360
Orthodox service?
I can't remember if.

385
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:16,520
I haven't had a chance.
But you've read a lot.

386
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,120
About it, I studied it quite a
bit, yeah.

387
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,680
Yeah.
So I, I would like to get after,

388
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,080
after I asked this first
question, I want to then go to,

389
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,720
OK, what, what would be some
things that you guys have

390
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,240
noticed in those other faith
traditions that you feel like

391
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,960
can, can maybe enrich us as
Mormons right now?

392
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,440
I know a lot of people right now
are cringing super hard, but I

393
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,600
think it's important that we
remember that both Brigham and

394
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,440
Joseph had made a statement,
something to the effect of all

395
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,880
truth belongs to Mormonism,
right?

396
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:54,320
And certainly in our, in our
articles of, of faith that talks

397
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,040
about, we look forward to all
things being revealed to us,

398
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,120
right?
So I, I think this is one of the

399
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:02,920
gifts of Mormonism that we got
to be careful not to shy away

400
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,400
from too quick because we, I do
believe we can learn things from

401
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,480
other folks, right?
And as Mormonism continues to

402
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,680
grow, especially fundamentalism,
it's going to be hard to create

403
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,760
that monolith that the LDS
church it has.

404
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,480
And to be quite honest with you,
I'm not sure that's something we

405
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,640
want to do anyways.
Create a monolith, right?

406
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,360
I think the monolith comes when
the savior comes back.

407
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,360
And until then, we we've all got
to do the best we can.

408
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:37,080
So I want to start here by by
kind of talking about doctrine

409
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,240
versus tradition and what the
danger is in conflating a

410
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,640
tradition with a doctrine.
Whoever wants to jump in first

411
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,240
is fine.
So one of the, one of the, so I,

412
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:56,240
I feel like coming from
completely outside of the LDS

413
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:04,240
world and getting to like having
the doors of so many of the

414
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,880
fundamentalist people open to me
and to my family and people that

415
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,680
want to, you know, bring us in
and have us for dinner.

416
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,400
And, you know, I don't know, sit
by the fire and play music and

417
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,440
talk to us about this or that
thing and, and, and, and, and

418
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:15,960
tell us about their own
experiences.

419
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:23,080
One of the things that I have
come to realize is there is a,

420
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:32,320
there is a long history in this
world of doing things because

421
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,040
that's how dad did it and that's
how grandpa did it.

422
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,120
And later people find out, like
when they really go to study the

423
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:41,520
scriptures that, oh, wait a
minute, that that's something

424
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,760
that we do as part of our
practice, but it's not actually

425
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,440
prescribed anywhere, right?
And I think the danger of that

426
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,080
which Justin was talking about,
what the picture is, that you

427
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:59,520
can imbue some kind of meaning
and require some kind of

428
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:05,520
rigidity that actually has
nothing to do with your

429
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,040
commitment to playing your part
in the eternal plan of

430
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,400
salvation.
So let me give you an example.

431
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,920
One of the things that I had
heard from, I won't name any

432
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,080
names or any groups or anything
like that.

433
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,920
But one of the things that I had
heard from a guy who was a part

434
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,760
of still is in this world, but
was a part of a group that we

435
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,640
would all know was that there
was a time where when the the

436
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,400
guy who presided, right, the one
man in their world would, would

437
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,040
walk into church and everyone
was already there.

438
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,680
And if you were sitting, you
stood.

439
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,520
And if you didn't stand, you
were considered to be in bad, no

440
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,920
pun intended, standing with the
congregation.

441
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,800
And I, that's a great example of
something that like you could,

442
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,760
you could see the value, right?
Especially if you read 132 and

443
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,320
you go, OK, so one man on earth
at a time holds the keys to this

444
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,960
priesthood, yadda, yadda, yadda,
all that stuff.

445
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,360
And you and you and you and you
believe in that.

446
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:05,280
And then he comes in and in some
way to show your respect for the

447
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,320
gravity of the work at which he
is the head, it would make sense

448
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,400
that you, you might stand you,
you could see the idea at play

449
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,040
there.
But the fact that that is in

450
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,720
some way tied to your standing,
I can't help myself, I laugh

451
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,800
when I say that it's tied to
your standing in the work.

452
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,120
Is the dark part right?
Like that is not in the

453
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:30,000
scripture.
You know what I mean, that that

454
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,600
doesn't exist.
So the fact that you don't do

455
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,440
that does not actually make you
on God's bad side.

456
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,440
And so I think that's kind of
like the danger of the tradition

457
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,440
and the reality of the world
that we live in is so much of it

458
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,480
is tradition.
You know, there's, there's,

459
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,240
there's quite a bit in the
Scripture, but, but in the

460
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,560
example of doctrine in the
scripture, but but in the

461
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,240
example of like, you know, what
do we do on Sundays?

462
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,280
Most of that is tradition.
And and that's not to suggest

463
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:04,040
that it's wrong or right, just
that if it came from D and

464
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,320
C-section, whatever, and it
started with thus sayeth the

465
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,600
Lord in my own mind, that
carries a lot more gravity than

466
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,120
well, grandpa did it and great
grandpa did it, etcetera,

467
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:14,640
etcetera.
And that's where we can get

468
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,960
lost, you know what I mean?
Absolutely.

469
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,480
Well, let me OK, now I am going
to name some names and name the

470
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:28,960
group when I just just right
before Thanksgiving, I had, I

471
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,480
was on TikTok, you know, 'cause
like I can't help but scroll

472
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,320
through everything Mormon,
right?

473
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,440
There's times I hate myself for
it, but I can't I came across

474
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:45,080
this one TikTok of of this this
woman telling her of her

475
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:50,200
experienced young woman that she
had just had at a BYU Idaho

476
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,200
devotional.
And David A Bednar was there,

477
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,520
right?
And David A Bednar had picked

478
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,280
out the hymn, and he had told
everybody, I want to sing this

479
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,440
with some enthusiasm.
So everybody stood up to sing,

480
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,080
right?
And as they were singing, David

481
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,520
A Bednar cuts it off in the
first verse and then goes and

482
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,320
tells everybody, if I'm not
standing, none of you were

483
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,800
standing.
And if I'm standing, you all

484
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,840
stand.
And I mean, he was very forceful

485
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,720
about it and then even went and
played a few games with it where

486
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,800
he like would finish talk, but
he would just sit at the like at

487
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,240
the podium for a few minutes
just I guess to test everybody,

488
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:38,840
right.
And it's that sort of stuff that

489
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,360
I I feel like can be a danger a
little bit right.

490
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,800
Obviously I feel like one man
ISM is a bad thing.

491
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,080
I think everyone on here knows
that by now.

492
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:54,280
And so with with that said,
that's where tradition can go

493
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,800
off the rails a little bit,
right?

494
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,840
Where where tradition can be
used as kind of social

495
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,000
conditioning and and that is, is
somewhat disturbing to me.

496
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,320
So, so I agree with you totally.
Adam, what were you going to

497
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,680
say?
So this was in the church like

498
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,720
in the LDS church.
Yes, just recently.

499
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,480
Who?
I'm sorry, I have no background,

500
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,640
who is David Bednar?
David A Bednar is, I believe,

501
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,280
no, he's not the acting
president of the Quorum of the

502
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,480
12 yet, but he's up there,
right?

503
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:22,880
He's up.
There, he's one of the guys, OK.

504
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,600
One of the 12.
Yep, Yep, he's one of the 12.

505
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,400
So, but, but that's one of those
things where I can see it being

506
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,880
very, you know, really
dangerous.

507
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,760
I, I think that maybe the bulk
of our traditions aren't

508
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,920
dangerous, right?
I think they're just that

509
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,160
traditions.
So Justin, do you want to weigh

510
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,080
in on this at all?
Yeah, sure.

511
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,680
Actually I thought of another
example here, kind of.

512
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,600
This is from Korea again, but
it's another way to look at this

513
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,720
because it has, it has relevance
because even here in

514
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,920
fundamentalism, you know, do you
break the bread first or do you

515
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,840
break the bread after the
prayer, right?

516
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:04,720
Different, different ways, 1
cup, multiple cups, how you pass

517
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,000
it.
You know, there's, there's

518
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,840
differences in that.
And you know, I'm kind of

519
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,960
personally, I don't think those
things necessarily matter, but I

520
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,120
think there's danger in the
assumption that they do.

521
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,200
And that's, that's really where
I think things can become a

522
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,160
problem, right?
But the point, the point of the

523
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,680
meeting, the point of the
sacrament especially, you know,

524
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,160
is to create an atmosphere of
holiness, I believe, right?

525
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,520
And so, and this is where things
got a little bit interesting,

526
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,080
right?
So in Korea, when you shake

527
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,400
hands with somebody, you bring
your other hand to your elbow.

528
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,520
When you shake hands as a sign
of respect, you're bringing your

529
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,880
other arm into it.
Not like you really need to hold

530
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,800
the other arm up, but it's it's,
it shows greater respect.

531
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,600
It conveys greater respect in
that culture, right?

532
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,200
It doesn't here in the US,
nobody D be offended if I just

533
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,920
shook their hand and didn't
bring my other arm up.

534
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,800
But I got so used to it, you
know, I come back and start

535
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,480
doing it by habit, sometimes
even, right.

536
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,880
It's just like, oh, that's how
you, that's how you shake hands

537
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,040
with somebody when you want to
convey respect especially.

538
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,360
And because that's a cultural
thing, when passing the

539
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,040
sacrament, the deacons will
bring their left arm to their

540
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,120
elbow and pass with their right
arm.

541
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,120
Like when shaking it, they're
shaking the hand.

542
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:30,880
And you know, that's not
prescribed, that's not in the

543
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,120
scriptures, right?
But at the same time, culturally

544
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,520
it creates an atmosphere among
that culture.

545
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,480
Right of this is being passed
with great respect.

546
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,880
Right.
And so I don't see anything

547
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,360
wrong with doing that because
that speaks to that culture and

548
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,360
that creates a, a more holy
ordinance.

549
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,760
But I also don't believe in the
rigid enforcement of it.

550
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,080
So you, you take that and then
try to enforce that in the

551
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,360
United States or something like
that.

552
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,840
It's not you're going to add
holiness in the United States

553
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,960
where that's not the culture.
It's just a suddenly becomes a

554
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,760
rule for the sake of being a
rule.

555
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:16,280
So yeah, I think there's a fine
line right between changing and

556
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,720
challenging tradition and also
kind of going along with it.

557
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,200
And I think ultimately, I think
that's one of the points.

558
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,520
I think that's actually one of
the reasons why our meet our

559
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:30,080
Sacrament meeting isn't laid out
explicitly in Scripture, because

560
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,440
I, I believe that God wants us
to figure this out.

561
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,560
He wants us to figure out what
speaks most to us in our

562
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,440
congregations, what conveys
these ideas in the most powerful

563
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,160
way.
And he wants, and God wants us

564
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,440
to have that flexibility and
freedom to do those things and

565
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,160
try and see what works, see what
doesn't work, maybe make

566
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:49,640
mistakes even.
That's part of growing.

567
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,320
Absolutely.
Adam, were you about to say

568
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,520
something?
Yeah, I was just going to say,

569
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,480
you know, you, you say a fine
line, right?

570
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:04,400
It, it's, it's, it, it, it's,
it's, it's the, the, the cliche,

571
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,000
the double edged sword, like the
fine line is literally the

572
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,200
blade.
Because on the one hand you're

573
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,680
what you just said was that it's
it's dangerous to believe that

574
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,240
the little minutiae of the
ordinance matter much greater

575
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,120
than they do.
So for example, you know,

576
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,200
whether you use a little cup or
you use a big cup, but it's also

577
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,360
dangerous to believe that they
don't because then that opens

578
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,720
the gateway to how do we change
those?

579
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,760
So it's like, how do you, I
think I think like one of our

580
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,440
tasks, right?
One of the things that I think

581
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:44,320
the Lord wants us to go figure
out is what is, what is the, how

582
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:51,240
do you perform an ordinance in a
way that resonates most

583
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,640
powerfully with the people I'm
performing the ordinance with

584
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,920
without undermining the revealed
elements of the ordinance,

585
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,640
right?
So as fundamentalist, we might

586
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,760
object to many of the recent
changes in the temple

587
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,400
ordinances.
However, we might not have an

588
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,000
opinion about small cup versus
big cup when it comes to

589
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,640
sacrament, right?
So the, the like our eternal

590
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:27,640
challenge from God is how do you
walk on the blade, on the edge

591
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,280
of the blade, right?
Like how do you make sure that

592
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,280
you're not abandoning tradition
like you just said, while

593
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:40,920
simultaneously not being so
rigid as to preclude yourself

594
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,280
from connecting the others, that
connecting with the others who

595
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,440
are participating in these
ordinances and in these

596
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,640
meetings, etcetera, in a way
that you might otherwise be able

597
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,640
to if you just had a little
flexibility, you know?

598
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,760
Sure.
OK, so, so let let me let me

599
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,400
bring this to the real world
then in in the real world of

600
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,080
Mormonism.
And I want to get each of your

601
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,840
guys's take on this.
OK.

602
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,000
Prior to the Spanish flu
epidemic that swept all the

603
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,440
world, Utah included, they were
not spared.

604
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,679
Sacrament was done with the
communal cup.

605
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,840
After the Spanish Flu hit, the
First Presidency came out and I

606
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,840
believe it was, it was either
Joseph F Smith or Hebrew J

607
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,560
Grant, I can't remember which
one, but one of them when when

608
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,000
that hit, they said, OK, we're
going to do away with that and

609
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,960
we're just going to use the
little cups, right, that we see

610
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,840
in modern day LDS church, just
little disposable plastic cups.

611
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,679
Is that something that we should
look at and say, oh, we lost

612
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:48,679
something there?
Or should we look at that and

613
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:53,600
say, Oh no, we're good?
I think you lost something if

614
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,880
there was meaning associated
with the way you were doing it

615
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,600
originally.
I don't think anything really.

616
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,760
I don't think you lost anything
if there wasn't, right.

617
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:08,720
So it so like if if the communal
cup was symbolic of the way that

618
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:11,400
as it was intended to be
symbolic of the way that as a

619
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,240
community you partake in the
sacrament as a symbol of the

620
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:19,000
blood of Christ and you're doing
it together and you're kind of

621
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,640
all in this together.
And in some ways it even makes

622
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,560
it more symbolic if there's
Spanish flu going around because

623
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,360
you're really all in this
together come hell or high

624
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,840
water, life or death.
But if that's symbolic, then

625
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,080
yeah, you did lose something.
But if that was just kind of

626
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,720
like a matter of convenience,
like in the 1830s or whenever

627
00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:39,280
that ordinance was first
revealed or the 1820s or

628
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,600
whatever, I don't know if my
timelines, I'm not a historian

629
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,400
very well.
But then and that was just like,

630
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,120
you know, people couldn't afford
a whole lot of little cups, then

631
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,520
I don't think you lost it.
So I mean, I think it kind of, I

632
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,960
think part of it matters like,
like what's the meaning?

633
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,240
What's like the intent?
What is the symbology?

634
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,480
Like what did you do away with
when you did it?

635
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,040
That isn't just like a matter of
logistics, a big cup or small

636
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,200
cups.
Sure, Justin, you got a thought

637
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,400
on that?
Yeah.

638
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:14,400
So I guess again, culturally, so
in Korea, I'm going back to

639
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,280
Korea, but it's just, it's so
relevant because it's such a

640
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,760
different culture from American
culture that it's, it's really

641
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,240
easy to, to draw some of these
distinctions in a way that

642
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:24,640
matters.
So in, in Korean culture, you

643
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,280
share plates all the time when
you're eating, you know, you'll

644
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,520
have side dishes that are
always, almost always a shared

645
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:32,760
plate.
Everybody's eating out of that

646
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,320
same dish.
And even a lot of main meals

647
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,480
where everybody, you know,
there's one big bowl and

648
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,440
everybody is everybody's
partaking of it.

649
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,200
And so culturally in Korea, the
idea of a shared cup wouldn't

650
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,440
really be that big of a deal
because the communal style of

651
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,400
eating is already relevant in
the culture.

652
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,880
You know, interestingly enough
today though, I could see issues

653
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,600
with a shared cup in that for a
lot of people that's uncommon

654
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,520
and that could be an ick.
And I think in sacrament, the

655
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,480
last thing you want to do is
have the congregation sitting

656
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,520
there thinking, no, no, this is
awkward, feeling awkward.

657
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,760
Instead of focused on, you know,
on Christ and the, and the

658
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,520
sacrament and the atonement,
they're focused on man, that

659
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,520
that 2 year old just slobbered
all over that thing.

660
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,800
And now it's coming to me.
And I could see that being a

661
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,000
distraction.
You know, also though, you know,

662
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,280
with small cups, individual
cups, you know, maybe that's

663
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,160
wasteful.
I mean, maybe that's not great

664
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,880
for the environment to be
manufacturing a whole bunch of 1

665
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,840
use mini cups and something more
sustainable would be worth

666
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,400
considering and thinking about.
It's AI think it's kind of a

667
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,440
complicated topic, a complicated
subject.

668
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,000
And again, I think that's why
even that it's not directly

669
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,840
prescribed.
I mean, we obviously see

670
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,360
instances and and scripture of
an individual cut being used,

671
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,120
but I don't, but I don't say it
declared anywhere as part of the

672
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:54,960
ordinance.
It's not it's not declared as

673
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,400
this is how you do that
anywhere.

674
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:02,200
And so I think, I think
individual communities can

675
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,080
tackle that problem in a way
that that suits their needs.

676
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,720
And there should be an openness.
The real, the real solution here

677
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:14,480
is though, is, is recognizing
and having an awareness of what

678
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,480
part of this ordinance is, is
ritualistically prescribed and

679
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,080
what things are being done for
convenience and having awareness

680
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,800
of that.
Because, you know, if it doesn't

681
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,520
matter, then it kind of doesn't
matter, right?

682
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,600
If I'm at a congregation and
they and they bless the bread

683
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,000
before breaking it or break the
bread before blessing it.

684
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,560
And I've got a different idea
myself on what I think's better

685
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,920
if I'm, you know, if I'm in
another congregation, they're

686
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:40,720
doing it differently.
I don't think I don't have a

687
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:43,200
problem with that because I know
that it's not prescribed.

688
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,840
And so I might prefer one or the
other personally, but I'm not

689
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,000
going to.
I don't think that it's invalid

690
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,480
being done differently if if a
different community has a

691
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,720
different reason for doing
things differently.

692
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,320
But I think it requires and kind
of puts the burden on us to have

693
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,560
an awareness and to be aware of
the intended symbology in the in

694
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,560
the, in the ordinance and know
the things that are prescribed

695
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,000
and understand what things we're
doing because it's it's

696
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,360
convenient, because it creates a
better experience.

697
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,600
Because I think again, the, the
point of all this is so that we

698
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,960
have these spiritual
experiences.

699
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:28,840
The ordinances are are created
to guide us to have these

700
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,120
encounters with God, right?
And if there's things that are

701
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,880
getting in the way of that, then
I think it's OK to look for

702
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,720
solutions as long as it's not
violating the ordinance.

703
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,200
Right.
Well, let me, let me, I want to

704
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,560
push back a little bit on both
of you on, on a couple of these

705
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,920
things.
Adam, when, when you when you

706
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,160
were answering the question, you
said if you lose symbology right

707
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,480
now, my question would be, is
that group symbology, you know,

708
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,440
is that a symbol to the whole
group or is that to 1, you know,

709
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,400
a couple people who, who
understand the symbology, right?

710
00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:07,800
We get into kind of some some
choppy water there, right?

711
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,240
So I, I was kind of thinking
about that when you said that

712
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:20,520
symbology only really hits home
in something you do if it's kind

713
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,720
of out of the ordinary, right?
Like there's, there's no real

714
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:26,040
meaning in something you do
constantly all the time.

715
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:32,240
And so in, I think some of that
depends on to go back to

716
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:34,840
Justin's point.
And I feel like I almost sound

717
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,280
like a multicultural liberal
talking about all these cultures

718
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,920
all the time, but it, but it
makes sense.

719
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,440
So like, if your culture is one
in which the shared communal cup

720
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,960
is this thing you use all the
time at your own dinners, well

721
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,160
then maybe it makes sense to
have small individual cups

722
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,640
because it might represent to
you the fact that you

723
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,240
individually are renewing your
covenants with the Lord, that

724
00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:59,280
you made a baptism and not
anybody else.

725
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,440
It's just you, and it's almost
like a symbol of your own

726
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,520
agency, etcetera.
But if you come from a culture

727
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,200
that does not share a cup, that
it may well be symbolic when you

728
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:12,000
do share one, that you as a
group are doing this together,

729
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,400
right?
Like this is religion is a

730
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,640
social activity.
And so I don't know man, I guess

731
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:24,280
maybe group symbology,
individual symbology, I guess

732
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:31,560
the the symbolism in the
ordinance or the tradition that

733
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:39,120
you are performing.
This goes back to the concept of

734
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,040
church franchises that Justin
talked about.

735
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,840
Because like some of the stuff
just isn't going to land in

736
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,240
other places, you know what I
mean?

737
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:49,160
Like, it it just, I think it
just depends on where your

738
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:50,600
church is.
And that's probably the problem

739
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,080
with the monolithic church.
You know, I mean, you said all

740
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,920
truth belongs to Mormonism as
the quote.

741
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,920
And I think that's a really
challenging thing for people to

742
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,760
get their heads around because
I've heard people quote that and

743
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,360
what they think it means is that
Joseph Smith is born and then he

744
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,840
has the vision in the Grove and
then he reveals to us the Book

745
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,960
of Mormon and the doctrine of
covenants, etcetera, etcetera.

746
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,320
And he's and he's revealed
everything like it's all been

747
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:16,400
defined.
So now we're good.

748
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,120
And I don't think that that's
I've actually heard that

749
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,280
interpreted that way.
Like basically, if it wasn't

750
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,320
said during his lifetime or, you
know, by Brigham Young or John

751
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,480
Taylor, then it we don't need to
worry about it.

752
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:35,240
And I think what that really
meant is that the tradition of

753
00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:41,560
Mormonism is the
all-encompassing tradition of

754
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:47,840
the ages restored.
And it doesn't mean that all the

755
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:54,600
things that were written down
between 1821 and 1844

756
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:58,320
encompassed all of everything
that was ever intended to be

757
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:05,280
practiced, just that this
tradition accepts that truth is

758
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,560
truth, and meaning oriented to
truth is meaning.

759
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,960
And in so far as other
traditions possess truth, it's

760
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,400
valid because it's all part of
the same thing.

761
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,520
It's just been corrupted over
time by the offshoots and this

762
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:21,720
and that thing.
Does that make sense?

763
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,960
Yep, Yep.
Justin, one of the things you

764
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,080
talked about was was you know
what?

765
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,960
What lands in one culture might
not land in another.

766
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,040
And I'm, I'm a firm believer in
that.

767
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,520
However, shouldn't, shouldn't
there be something be said for,

768
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,400
well, you know, Joseph Smith was
aiming for something a little

769
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,120
bit different than just going to
church on Sundays, right?

770
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,560
He was looking at making cities,
communities, that sort of thing.

771
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,400
At what point does do we have to
look at this or do you think we

772
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,920
have to and say, OK, there's got
to be kind of a culture

773
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,000
associated with, with Zion,
right?

774
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,520
That's what we're all aiming
towards.

775
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,880
Should that factor into the
equation anywhere?

776
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,240
Right.
Well, see, I don't, I don't

777
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:08,400
really think that it does
actually enter.

778
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,440
I don't I don't believe there's
a one true culture.

779
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,240
I don't believe that's how how
God created us.

780
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,600
I think God finds beauty and and
diversity within a certain

781
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,040
degree, right?
As long as things are in

782
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,880
accordance with eternal law, if
they express themselves in a

783
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,520
manifest multitude of ways, I
think that I think there's

784
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,920
beauty in that.
I think that's, that is almost

785
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:35,440
the definition of beauty to me
is, is, is diversity within,

786
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,200
within certain bounds and
constraints.

787
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:44,160
And so I, you know, there is a
place for conformity and that

788
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,720
has more to do with the theology
and, and the things that are

789
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:49,480
basically brought out through
ordinances.

790
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:56,040
And I think that's one of the,
to me, one of the big ways that

791
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:57,720
see, I think there was a
problem, right?

792
00:44:57,720 --> 00:44:59,960
And this is one of the beauties
of, of the Orthodox Church,

793
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:02,880
probably, probably the Catholic
Church too, is, is, you know,

794
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,400
you go to their Mass or
something like that.

795
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,400
This whole thing is this, this
liturgy, it's this beautiful

796
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:13,120
pattern that's always the same
and it's always the same pretty

797
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,600
much, right?
It's, it's these aspects in that

798
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,680
when you do the same thing again
and again and again, it creates

799
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,760
an opportunity to really reflect
on it and to go deep into what

800
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,440
it's conveying.
And early Mormonism didn't

801
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:30,040
really have that right.
How, however, with the Kirtland

802
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,360
Temple, you know, Joseph
organizes the school of the

803
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,480
prophets and I think that's one
of the first places where you

804
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,720
really start seeing a little bit
more of a of a ritualized

805
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:42,800
practice going on with greetings
and becoming a member, you know,

806
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,600
these foot washing things.
And I think he's building

807
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,640
structure in and ultimately with
the culmination of of the

808
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:58,560
endowment ordinance, we see a
highly structured, very

809
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:02,560
detailed, specific ordinance
that's done in a certain way.

810
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,560
It's and honestly, that's what I
find the biggest, the biggest

811
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,600
thing to me was I'm looking at
at these orthodox masses and

812
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:10,840
things and these meet their
meetings.

813
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,200
And I'm just astounded how
similar they are to the

814
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,280
endowment or other temple
ordinances.

815
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:24,440
And to me, it looks like that
what the the Catholics are doing

816
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,400
is basically an equivalent of of
Mormon temple worship.

817
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,800
And then if you look at like the
Protestant style worship where

818
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,280
things are more flexible and who
know, maybe there's a maybe

819
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:34,920
there's a rock band, who knows,
right.

820
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,840
Or if people are calling out
Amen in the congregation, that

821
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,640
freedom is more, I think, I
believe what was intended for

822
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,800
the, for our, our more regular
meetings where you could have

823
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,080
that diversity and that
expression.

824
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,200
However, you also have other
things like the temple worship

825
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,720
where you conform to the
ordinance rather than having the

826
00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:58,360
meeting conform to maybe a
culture.

827
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,680
And I think there's, there's
wisdom in having both of those

828
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,440
things 'cause we all grow in
different ways.

829
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,960
And there's times in your life
where you know, having things

830
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,280
the same creates stability and
structure.

831
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,120
And we all need stability and
structure in our life.

832
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,840
Having things really open and
liberal, though, creates

833
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:19,040
opportunities for, for, for a
different type of growth and

834
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,680
exploration, for inspiration to
strike at just the right moment.

835
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,920
And you know, somebody, some,
I've had it before all the time

836
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,360
where you're sitting in
Sacramento, even as a

837
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,640
fundamentalist right, where
people kind of generally get

838
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,640
randomly called right from the
congregation to come and say

839
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,600
something.
And you know, you're thinking,

840
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,200
huh, what, what would I want to
say if I get called up?

841
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,720
And I mean, nine times out of
10, even if I don't get called

842
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:45,120
up, somebody gets called up and
addresses the same thing I was

843
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,640
thinking, which shows that it's
allowing the Holy Spirit to be

844
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,120
the correlator to, to guide and
direct us.

845
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,680
And we need experiences with
that as well.

846
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,800
I think in order to grow as, as
children of God, we've got to

847
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,640
learn how to follow that
inspiration, know how to read it

848
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,200
correctly.
And to do that, we need a

849
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,240
playground where we can do that.
And I think that's what our

850
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,640
regular meetings kind of can
become.

851
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,800
But there's also a place for
highly specific ritualized

852
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,320
actions and behaviors for
worship as well to create that

853
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,200
stability and, and to create
that structure that we need as

854
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,200
well.
And so I think we kind of to a

855
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,440
certain degree have the best of
both worlds as Mormons with our

856
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,320
Sunday meetings being flexible
and then but then having these

857
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,720
beautiful highly ritualized
practices in the temple.

858
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,000
See, and I, I, I have, like, I
see where you're going with

859
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,840
that, but I have, but I have,
but I, I don't, I don't think of

860
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,680
it as the best of both worlds
because a lot of these groups, a

861
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,520
lot of these fundamentalist
groups don't have a temple,

862
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,040
which is a problem.
And if you don't have a temple,

863
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,680
then all you're getting is the
Sunday meeting.

864
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:59,280
And a lot of times in those
Sunday meetings, I'm with you

865
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,760
100%.
You got to be guided by the

866
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,880
spirit and there's value in
allowing people to say, give

867
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,000
their testimony or to give their
thoughts on, you know, some

868
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,960
scripture that was really
sticking in the craw that week

869
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,960
or something important to him.
But but a lot of times, and I'm

870
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,840
probably just going to make a
lot of people salty in our world

871
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,160
when I say this, but like a lot
of times, those Sundays feel

872
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,560
like therapy sessions, man.
People get up and they just talk

873
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,160
about how they feel.
And sometimes it's scriptural

874
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,600
and sometimes it's doctrinal.
And some of the most inspired

875
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,600
things I've heard people say
have come in those settings.

876
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,680
But there are also plenty of
Sundays that I can remember

877
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,240
where I left church going.
Yeah, that was good.

878
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,560
But it's different from like
when someone really nails it,

879
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,240
you know what I'm saying?
And I think that that's kind of

880
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:51,680
the beauty of some of this
ritual.

881
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,800
But it's also see the problem in
our world, as far as I can tell,

882
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,640
and and I have the least
authority to be able to opine in

883
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:00,600
the problems of our world
because I've only been here for

884
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,400
a couple years.
So, you know, like take

885
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,280
everything I say with a grain of
salt and just disregard me if if

886
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,120
you know makes you feel better.
But the problem that I see with

887
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,880
our world is people are very,
they're very, very cautious,

888
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,160
like to a fault.
And one of the things they are

889
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,880
cautious about is this idea of
vain and repetitious prayer.

890
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,160
And they seem to think that like
doing something over and over

891
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,120
again, even if it's over, you
know, weeks or months or

892
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,360
whatever.
And it's not just like 100 times

893
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:32,680
in six hours is like somehow
opening the door to like

894
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,120
obligatory ritual and closing
the door to being guided by the

895
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,840
Spirit.
And I don't, I don't agree with

896
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,440
that because the endowment is
scripted, the temple work is

897
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:43,680
scripted, right?
Like there's like there's a

898
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:45,720
script to this stuff.
There's a basic outline at the

899
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:47,920
very least, if we're talking
about say like the dedication

900
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:49,440
ordinance or something, it's a
basic outline.

901
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,120
So, so the idea that like
repeating something is

902
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,240
inherently bad, which I think is
kind of like this implicit idea

903
00:50:57,240 --> 00:51:00,320
that exists in the minds of many
of the people in the

904
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,040
fundamentalist world is it's
incorrect and it's proven

905
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:05,960
incorrect by the by the temple
ordinances.

906
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:12,080
But then, OK, so the reason I
think that like some of these

907
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:16,560
rituals that say the Catholic
Church performs have value is on

908
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,040
those days where we had a day as
a group where we're like, no one

909
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:21,800
really got up and just nailed
it, right?

910
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,000
No one got up and said something
real profound.

911
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:31,040
We may invite the Spirit to be
present and to work on our minds

912
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,640
and on our hearts and our souls
in a way that we wouldn't if we

913
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,240
would do the kinds of things
that very subtly and

914
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:42,080
subconsciously Orient us to our
place in the plan of salvation

915
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:46,600
or to the atoning sacrifice of
Jesus Christ or to the you know,

916
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,000
I don't know the different
levels of glory or to the on

917
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,280
layers of the onion of the
meaning of Scripture.

918
00:51:52,280 --> 00:52:02,200
Like if we could have a Sunday,
like a Sunday template where

919
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:05,520
there were things that were
intended to be meaningful in the

920
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,400
context of our individual
cultures and our individual

921
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,120
groups or our church franchises,
to use your word, I think we'd

922
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,920
have a lot If there was then
like, you know, those rituals

923
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:16,880
existed.
And then we have a space for

924
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,760
people to get up and just give
their testimony or to speak on

925
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,200
something they were guided by
the Spirit to speak about or to

926
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:23,880
give a blessing or dedication or
whatever.

927
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,800
I think we'd have a lot more
impact in those moments where

928
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,440
someone is just kind of like
free form and unscriptedly given

929
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:37,080
the microphone to opine on the
thing that matters to them or

930
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,760
the thing they were inspired to
say at that time.

931
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,320
If we did the work to like
subtly Orient or subconscious to

932
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,520
what we're all there to do,
right?

933
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,840
It's almost like there's this
this continuum between the

934
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:54,120
informality of like a regular
Sunday meeting and the temple.

935
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,120
And it seems to me that there
would be benefit in attempting

936
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,960
to move us a little closer to
the temple ordinance on that

937
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:08,920
continuum in terms of its ritual
symbology, but still stay very

938
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:10,920
firmly in the camp of this is
Sunday.

939
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,960
Does that make sense?
Justin, you want you want to

940
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,240
respond to that.
I I got a few things to start.

941
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:19,440
Go ahead.
Yeah, yeah.

942
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,640
Let me, let me let me comment on
this a little bit.

943
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,840
Let me get a little salty here
to understand.

944
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,080
Well, OK, I'm going to go back
to that.

945
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:30,840
It is the best of both worlds to
have both.

946
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:36,360
First of all, and the real issue
with a lot of fundamentalism,

947
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,000
not having temples or not
practicing temple worship

948
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,760
regularly is a problem.
That's a problem.

949
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,160
I also completely agree with you
that sacrament meetings are not

950
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,240
always the best when there's a
lot of flexibility given.

951
00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:53,640
I've seen a lot of that too of,
you know, people come and they

952
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:57,320
talk about their feelings.
Interestingly, there is some

953
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:02,680
specific instructions given in
Scripture, a lot of instructions

954
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,880
on, on, on what it on what it is
we're supposed to be preaching.

955
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,480
And, and it's very simply we're
supposed to be preaching

956
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:14,200
repentance.
And my understanding of that is

957
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,760
that basically it's not that it
should be fire and brimstone

958
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:20,880
calling people to repentance all
the time, but basically, if

959
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,080
you're going to speak, you need
to be speaking about those

960
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:26,360
things.
You're talking about our place

961
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,800
in the universe, where we,
where, where we are in relation

962
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,400
to God and how we can improve
that relationship, how we can

963
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,360
how we can we come closer to
Christ.

964
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,520
We've all been presumably at
this point, we've all been

965
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,400
baptized, we've committed, we
believe in Christ and we've

966
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,800
committed to this path.
So what is the point of only

967
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,640
preaching repentance to this
generation?

968
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,040
Well, I, I think it's because we
haven't committed to that path.

969
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,160
We've got to now follow through
and following through is one of

970
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,000
the hardest things.
And it's something that

971
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,880
individually I don't think we
can accomplish.

972
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:03,760
I think we actually depend on
each other cooperatively for our

973
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,120
spiritual growth.
And we need people who can, who

974
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,520
can lift us up when we're
struggling and we need to be

975
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,320
able to lift other people up
when they're struggling.

976
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:17,040
And, you know, this is a
different topic, but it's also

977
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,920
maybe a weakness sometimes in
our priesthood quorums where

978
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:24,160
we're not really supporting each
other as individuals and we're

979
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:28,280
more just kind of dogmatically,
you know, pushing these messages

980
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,120
forward.
And it goes again back to this

981
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,880
idea of what I think, you know,
confessing is supposed to be and

982
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:34,440
why we're supposed to be
confessing on Sundays.

983
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,680
I don't, I don't think we're
supposed to be going into detail

984
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,680
about the individual, specific
gory details, but I think we

985
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,680
should be able to be open and
always aware that, hey, you

986
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:46,840
know, we are not, we haven't
made it.

987
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,560
I'm not at the top of, I'm not
at the top of the of Jacob's

988
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,160
ladder.
And, and I'm meeting with, with,

989
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,200
with Elohim and Jehovah, you
know, every Sunday night when I

990
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,960
pray, I'm not, I'm not there
yet, you know, And so repentance

991
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:03,280
matters to me too.
And what is repentance?

992
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:07,440
It's the things that matter most
to bring us to Christ and bring

993
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,720
us to God.
And by preaching repentance,

994
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,040
we're keeping the focus where it
needs to be for those meetings.

995
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,720
And you know, when we're but
when we're talking about, you

996
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:19,920
know, our feelings and stuff
like that, like you're saying

997
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,560
that's it's a quality issue,
right?

998
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,560
But I think it comes from maybe
a lack of awareness or

999
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:30,120
understanding on how what makes
preaching.

1000
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:36,240
And I think that doesn't
necessarily require strict, you

1001
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:40,000
know, more temple style rigid
ordinances in a Sacramento

1002
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,200
meeting.
But again, I don't think there's

1003
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,400
necessarily anything wrong with
having those elements either

1004
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,840
though, but I would be cautious
about thinking that they're

1005
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,640
necessary.
They might be necessary in

1006
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,600
certain congregations, maybe
right for a while, especially if

1007
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:55,360
they don't have a lot of temple
worship.

1008
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,480
That might be a really great
idea, right?

1009
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,520
But as a principal, I think the
main thing is, is better focus

1010
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:06,920
on how to have quality sacrament
meetings, whatever that whatever

1011
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:11,160
that might be.
So we have less talks or you

1012
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,120
know, they're not really talks
and aren't edifying.

1013
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,440
And then also to have more
temple activity.

1014
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:21,840
So, you know, when I was in the
LDS church, it's not prescribed

1015
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,520
like I, when I was in the LDS
church, nobody ever told me how

1016
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,360
often you're supposed to go to
the temple, right?

1017
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,400
They tell you you're supposed to
go to church every Sunday, but

1018
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,160
it's not like they said, hey,
this is this is your temple

1019
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:34,600
schedule.
This is what you need to do to

1020
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:39,800
be in good standing.
And you know, for me though, it

1021
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,120
quickly became a weekly ritual
as well.

1022
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,560
And it was beautiful that there
were temples pretty much

1023
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,160
anywhere you go open every day
of the week.

1024
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,880
So, you know, depending on the
week, there was a way to, to fit

1025
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:57,120
that into my schedule.
And, and I made a, a, a very

1026
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:02,000
deliberate point of doing that.
And it was a very beautiful and

1027
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:06,200
significant part of my, my own
growth, spiritual growth and

1028
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,680
development.
And I think it's a tragedy that

1029
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,280
it's not a higher priority in a
lot of these fundamentalist

1030
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,120
circles.
I think that especially if the

1031
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,600
attitude is, is that, hey, we've
got, we've got even more.

1032
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,440
Well, then you got, you kind of
got to show it, right.

1033
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:29,960
If we, if we've got more than
the LDS Church has, then that

1034
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,760
should manifest in, in ordinance
work and, and the availability

1035
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,800
of, of doing those, because I do
believe it's absolutely crucial,

1036
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,920
these ritualized ordinances and
this and nothing more of the

1037
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,560
endowment.
I guess that's my biggest

1038
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,760
concern, I guess, with the
changes the LDS Church has made

1039
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,600
to the endowment, because by
changing it so much and

1040
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,680
optimizing it and streamlining
it, it's maybe more efficient if

1041
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:58,680
the point is numbers, but it's a
lot, I think less efficient if

1042
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,920
the point is you connecting with
God in a, in a structured,

1043
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:07,760
ritualized manner by optimizing
things and, and, and trying to

1044
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,440
shorten things and make it as
efficient as possible.

1045
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,200
Well, that's not the point.
The point is maybe it's going to

1046
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,400
be 4 hours, but that's four
hours you're dedicating to the

1047
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,160
Lord and that's four hours
that's feeding your soul.

1048
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,280
And if we can cut it down to two
hours, should we?

1049
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:24,760
I think you're losing something
by doing that.

1050
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:31,840
Absolutely.
A couple things I had is it's

1051
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:35,840
interesting, we did see where
COVID did have an effect on the

1052
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,560
temple ordinance in the LDS
church, right?

1053
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,640
And if I'm wrong on this,
someone please reach out to me

1054
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,240
and correct it 'cause I, I'll,
I'll, I'll correct it on here.

1055
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:49,360
But it's my understanding now
and, and I'm trying not to, to

1056
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:52,600
be gentle here, not to reveal
too much, but I think I'm in, in

1057
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,600
OK here.
The tokens used to be passed out

1058
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,840
to every person that was in the,
in, in the endowment session.

1059
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:04,880
So you know that you'd stand up,
they would pass out the token.

1060
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:09,680
And then you would sit back down
when COVID hit, they stopped

1061
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:11,680
doing that.
And instead they just give it to

1062
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:15,360
the witness couple and then show
a picture of it, I guess in the

1063
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,760
video.
And again, if I'm wrong on that,

1064
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,320
someone correct me.
But I, it's my understanding now

1065
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,360
that that's not received by
everybody.

1066
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,160
That's just part of that
streamlining effort, right?

1067
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,720
And so streamlining, I agree
with you.

1068
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,320
When, when I hear that in
conjunction with ordinances, I

1069
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:36,880
start getting pretty nervous.
Now the, the other thing I'll

1070
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,400
say, and Adam, I'm, I'm going to
push back here a little bit.

1071
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,480
You, you'd said, OK, somebody
gets up at church and nails it.

1072
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:45,600
And that, that really
constitutes a good meeting.

1073
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,040
But shouldn't, shouldn't some of
that fall back on us as

1074
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,960
individuals?
Like, look, there's been times

1075
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:55,440
I've gone to church and I can't
remember a thing the speaker had

1076
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:57,200
said.
But because I had kind of

1077
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,800
prepared myself beforehand to go
into sacrament meeting, that

1078
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,840
after the ordinance was done, I
had a stroke of revelation.

1079
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:09,880
Sit in the pews, right?
Shouldn't some of that finding

1080
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:14,360
meaning fall back on us as
individuals rather than say, you

1081
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:19,480
know, it's, it's the, the
structure's responsibility or

1082
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,680
the church's responsibility to
make sure I get something out of

1083
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,400
it?
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1084
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:29,080
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1085
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:33,040
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1086
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,200
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1087
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01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:50,240
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1092
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,040
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1093
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,240
Now the, the other thing I'll
say, and Adam, I'm, I'm going to

1094
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,120
push back here a little bit.
You, you'd said, OK, somebody

1095
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:07,040
gets up at church and nails it.
And that that really constitutes

1096
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:08,920
a good meeting.
But shouldn't, shouldn't some of

1097
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:10,920
that fall back on us as
individuals?

1098
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,520
Like, look, there's been times
I've gone to church and I can't

1099
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,880
remember a thing the speaker had
said.

1100
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,320
But because I had kind of
prepared myself beforehand to go

1101
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:26,600
into sacrament meeting, that
after the ordinance was done, I

1102
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,960
had a stroke of revelation.
Sit in the pews, right?

1103
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,600
Shouldn't some of that finding
meaning fall back on us as

1104
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:39,880
individuals rather than say, you
know, it's, it's the the

1105
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:43,200
structure's responsibility or
the church's responsibility to

1106
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:45,000
make sure I get something out of
it?

1107
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,240
Yes, but.
It's like the one time a week

1108
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,320
when we actually gather
together.

1109
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:57,200
So it seems like the very fact
of our togetherness should do

1110
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:01,360
something more than the
remaining however many 100 hours

1111
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,600
are in the week, right?
So, so, so I don't, I don't

1112
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,560
disagree with you.
You know, you got to be in the

1113
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,320
right mind state to receive the
spirit when you're at the

1114
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:11,760
whatever meeting on Sunday,
sacrament meeting, testimony

1115
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:13,920
meeting, I don't know,
discussion meeting, priesthood

1116
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:18,200
meeting, whatever.
But if you're going to meet once

1117
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:20,720
or twice a week, say twice a
week for priesthood and then and

1118
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:24,120
then sacrament, and each one is
an hour and a half, that's three

1119
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:26,200
hours.
I don't know how many hours are

1120
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:27,680
actually in a week.
Now, this is going to kill me.

1121
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:28,800
I'm just going to do this math
real quick.

1122
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:31,920
So it would be there's 168 hours
in a week.

1123
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,920
So the remaining 165 hours, I
think you should be doing all

1124
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:42,440
that you can to do your part to
be ready and willing and able to

1125
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:48,080
receive revelation through the
Spirit that is pertinent to your

1126
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:50,280
life, into the life of your
family, into the life of the

1127
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:53,880
people you know, in sort of your
locus of responsibility.

1128
01:03:55,040 --> 01:04:02,080
But I think without imparting
the responsibility for me to

1129
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:07,080
experience something onto the
other members of the body, I do

1130
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,840
think that the fact of your
togetherness ought to facilitate

1131
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:13,080
something different than the
remaining 165 hours that you

1132
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,360
possess in the week.
Does that make sense?

1133
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:20,560
It does it does.
I just, I never want to AB you

1134
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:24,920
know, abdicate my my
responsibility for for receiving

1135
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:26,920
revelation on to somebody else,
right.

1136
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,160
I, I always go by a general rule
of thumb.

1137
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:34,480
If, if, if I walk out of
sacrament not feeling fulfilled

1138
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:38,600
in some way, I got to look first
at me and go, OK, what, what

1139
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:43,320
where was I at right.
And then let me and then and

1140
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:47,240
then address that issue before I
try to find fault with a leader

1141
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:49,840
or something like that who was
trying to facilitate that.

1142
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:53,280
So let me say this, I don't
really think about it so much as

1143
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,840
finding fault with a leader or
with any individual that you

1144
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:03,360
know, gives, gives a testimony,
gives a talk, something right?

1145
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:11,160
What I think the, the, it's
almost like because the whole of

1146
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:17,480
the community is greater than
the sum of its parts to have a

1147
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:21,160
community in which your
priesthood meetings or your

1148
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:24,120
sacrament meetings or your
discussion meetings or whatever

1149
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:31,840
consistently like get to this
place of really elevated,

1150
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:39,120
intense, like revelation,
understanding, enlightenment,

1151
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,360
connection with the spirit,
however you want to describe it.

1152
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,600
There's almost like this this
collective.

1153
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,480
I, I really hate this right,
because agency sort of negates

1154
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:51,120
this.
So it's this weird conflict, but

1155
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:53,120
there's almost like this
collective.

1156
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:56,440
That's that's what Zion is.
It's like this collective

1157
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:03,880
responsibility to be prepared in
in unison to like do the work

1158
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:06,760
and receive the and to be closer
to God and to receive

1159
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,960
revelation, etcetera, in some
way where the whole is greater

1160
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:11,560
than the sum of its parts.
You know, one of the best

1161
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:14,680
examples of this is I was at a
priesthood meeting and I'm going

1162
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:16,560
to name names because I think
this is great and I think people

1163
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:19,840
deserve credit.
So with a, a friend of mine, you

1164
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:22,560
guys probably know him higher.
I'm sitting and another guy, I

1165
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:25,000
forget his name.
He was a Foster and he had like

1166
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:30,000
long hair and they, they got
into this discussion about the,

1167
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:33,080
the, the purpose of temple
symbology.

1168
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:36,040
And I won't go into any of the
details about the points that

1169
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:38,440
were made, but but these two
guys like disagreed and they

1170
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:40,440
disagreed in good spirit, right?
It wasn't contentious or

1171
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,520
anything like that, but it was,
it was like this fascinating

1172
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:48,120
conversation to listen to
because everything that came out

1173
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:50,760
of both of these two guys
mouths, I was just like, wow,

1174
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,960
I've never thought about that
that way, you know, and it was

1175
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:56,480
just like one thing after
another after another after

1176
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:59,640
another.
And maybe I just, I don't know,

1177
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,920
maybe I'm just not purified or
sanctified enough to receive

1178
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:06,280
revelation to make me that smart
that quickly.

1179
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:12,160
But like our presence together
and the spirit in that room gave

1180
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:17,800
me so much more about that topic
than I think I would have ever

1181
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,840
got on my own in that same
window of time.

1182
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:24,520
That like, I guess what I, what
I think of is not so much that

1183
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:26,840
it's somebody else's
responsibility to like get my

1184
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,520
brain there, but that, but that
if we are as a group,

1185
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:36,440
sanctified, purified, in tune
with the spirit enough, the

1186
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,160
whole is so much greater than
the sum of its parts.

1187
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:42,200
And I know everyone that sat in
that room that day walked away

1188
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:43,920
with something real powerful,
you know what I mean?

1189
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,160
Sure, sure.
I, I would say this, that was a

1190
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:48,720
priesthood meeting though,
right?

1191
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:54,240
So you're not going to get the
same sort of of interaction in a

1192
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:58,120
in like a sacrament meeting,
yeah, as you would in a

1193
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:01,720
priesthood meeting where you
can, where you have a chance to

1194
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:04,480
respond, right.
Typically we don't see responses

1195
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:06,920
coming out of sacrament.
And I think that's good, right?

1196
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:11,640
Because quite honestly, in a
sacrament meeting like that, you

1197
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:15,400
would want things a little more
orderly than just having kind of

1198
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:17,000
a discussion.
I think there could be a time

1199
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,040
and a place for that as well in
a sacrament meeting.

1200
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:22,160
But I, I, I do see what you're
saying there, though.

1201
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:24,319
We are edified by each other,
definitely.

1202
01:08:24,319 --> 01:08:26,960
So I, I yeah, I I see what
you're saying there.

1203
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:29,120
Justin, I saw you lean in at one
point.

1204
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:30,880
Did you have something you
wanted to respond to there?

1205
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:34,680
Yeah, I yeah, I've got some
thoughts on this too.

1206
01:08:35,319 --> 01:08:38,840
You know, and it kind of
actually goes back to the,

1207
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:42,200
again, the purpose of having
these meetings because

1208
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,399
ultimately, you know, as preset
holders, we could, we could just

1209
01:08:45,399 --> 01:08:48,600
do Sacramento in our own home.
And in fact, there's really

1210
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:50,399
nothing preventing us from doing
that.

1211
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:55,760
The, the purpose and the point,
in my opinion, of, of having a

1212
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,439
congregation meet is so that
they can strengthen each other

1213
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:02,640
because we all have strengths.
We all have weaknesses and point

1214
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,840
of the gospel is to help us
overcome our weaknesses and

1215
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:09,560
magnify those strengths and to
create an opportunity to do

1216
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:13,680
that.
I believe that this sort of

1217
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,600
sandbox is set up.
It's a playground.

1218
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:20,319
I, I think sacrament meeting is
kind of a playground and it's a

1219
01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:22,560
playground where God wants us to
figure out what we're doing.

1220
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:24,120
Figure how do you go down the
slide?

1221
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:25,680
I don't know.
You got to figure it out.

1222
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:27,920
You know, maybe you can climb up
the slide.

1223
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:30,960
Maybe that's fun.
You know, what are we doing here

1224
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:33,720
is we're, we're trying to
support each other in, in our

1225
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:36,080
growth and our development
spiritually.

1226
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:41,439
And so, you know, often if, if I
see a sacrament meeting speaker

1227
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:45,520
and it's just doesn't land, you
know, I think that that's OK

1228
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:47,560
because they're probably
learning something through that

1229
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,680
process themselves.
And they're they're given an

1230
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:52,880
opportunity.
And, you know, I've been given a

1231
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,680
lot of opportunities in my life.
And some of those opportunities

1232
01:09:56,680 --> 01:10:02,760
I didn't take, but I've never
had an opportunity that I took,

1233
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,360
whether I succeeded or failed,
that I didn't learn and grow

1234
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:09,720
from.
And so the very, I mean, because

1235
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:13,160
here's the thing, if we want to
get more highly optimized, you

1236
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:17,640
know, a, a paid ministry would
make a lot more sense with a,

1237
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:20,960
with a speaker who's who's,
who's, this is his job.

1238
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:23,440
So he can basically read
scriptures all day and find the

1239
01:10:23,440 --> 01:10:25,160
most spiritual messages to
share.

1240
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,320
And it's his job to show the
spiritual message on Sunday.

1241
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:30,840
That would, I think that'd be
way more effective.

1242
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:33,600
And we probably could have a lot
more spiritual sacrament

1243
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,880
meetings for, for the whole if
we were to implement something

1244
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:38,320
like that.
But I think it would work

1245
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:43,040
against the purpose, which is US
individuals, whoever we are,

1246
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:45,960
whatever our skill set, whatever
our comfort level is with

1247
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:48,680
things.
It's it's a pattern that allows

1248
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:52,280
us to grow and develop.
It's an opportunity to figure

1249
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:55,720
out maybe public speaking.
It's not, it's not everybody's

1250
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:59,640
thing, right?
But it's an opportunity to give

1251
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,440
that kind of thing a shot and,
and deal with your insecurities.

1252
01:11:02,440 --> 01:11:05,720
And it's an opportunity to maybe
remember that you need to be

1253
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:08,320
more prepared, right.
I mean, I, I wonder if some of

1254
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:10,440
those people who go up and speak
about their feelings don't come

1255
01:11:10,440 --> 01:11:13,760
back down and think, man, that
was kind of embarrassing.

1256
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,400
I wish I had something more
spiritual to talk about.

1257
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:19,800
And then they're looking back
and thinking, oh, maybe, you

1258
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:22,120
know, this last week, you know,
I haven't really read my

1259
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:23,920
scriptures at all.
We haven't really been praying

1260
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,200
very sincerely.
And may I need it.

1261
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:29,360
I want to turn that around.
So I mean, you know, we don't

1262
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:34,400
really necessarily know the
outcome and the effects of even

1263
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:38,040
what appears at its surface to
be a sacrament meeting that just

1264
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:40,680
doesn't land.
We don't know who that's helping

1265
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:44,640
and who that's uplifting.
And again, as far as personal

1266
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:49,400
responsibility goes, I also kind
of, I, I get both sides of that.

1267
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:52,720
You know, when I was, when I was
converted, fully converted to

1268
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:55,880
fundamentalism, it got to the
point where I couldn't really

1269
01:11:56,040 --> 01:12:00,200
bear being in LDS meetings
anymore because I'm just biting

1270
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:03,680
my tongue the whole time and it
never lands and the whole time.

1271
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:08,920
And it got kind of wearying
almost to a point dealing with

1272
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:12,120
that, that contradict these
contradictions, right.

1273
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:17,080
But on the other hand, there's
been also plenty of times where,

1274
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:19,600
you know, I've, I've started
watching some general conference

1275
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,840
again here and there, not out,
not at with an intention to see

1276
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:29,960
what's wrong or what's, what's
to find fault and disagreement,

1277
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:33,280
but to actually look for the
things that are still working

1278
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:38,440
and, and see how, you know, the
largest body of, of, of

1279
01:12:38,440 --> 01:12:40,640
restorationists are, are being
fed.

1280
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:45,000
And I found, I found, I found
the spirit sometimes in those

1281
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:48,800
talks and that there was there's
value to be had.

1282
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:51,880
And I mean, I think if the
spirit is with you, even if

1283
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:54,600
somebody says something
completely false, you're still

1284
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:58,360
being fed because the spirit
whispers to you that was wrong.

1285
01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:01,400
Here's how it really is.
And you were still taught you,

1286
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:06,640
or you're still reminded of, of,
of the, of the, of the true

1287
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:09,360
principle or, or gospel or
doctrine, I guess whatever,

1288
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:11,960
whatever you might look at.
I mean, even with the, with

1289
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:17,280
looking into the Orthodox face,
that was one of the things I

1290
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:19,880
could find is like, I found it
pretty beautiful.

1291
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:23,720
And I, I didn't focus on the,
the theological differences,

1292
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:26,120
though.
I was focusing on, on the things

1293
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:29,520
that we shared and seeing those
things inspired me.

1294
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,200
And so, but I think I could
probably feel the same if I went

1295
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:33,840
to a, you know, a Baptist
Church.

1296
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:37,160
I might not agree with all their
theology being presented, but I

1297
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:42,160
thought I could find the spirit
present and that I could, you

1298
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:44,920
know, get spiritually fed
through the experience.

1299
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:49,640
Got you, Adam.
Justin, I just wanted to tell

1300
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,400
you, and I mean this in the
absolute most enduring way, you

1301
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:54,440
need to start your own podcast
and call it the Mormon Hippie

1302
01:13:54,440 --> 01:13:55,680
Man, and everyone's going to
listen to it.

1303
01:13:55,680 --> 01:14:00,280
I'm telling you.
Nice, nice.

1304
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:02,640
There you go to your next
project, Justin.

1305
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:06,160
I don't think I want to speak to
that right now, but we'll see.

1306
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:13,440
You know, it's, and I think
that's what this, this

1307
01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:18,800
conversation is bringing out is
that it's a, it's one of those

1308
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:23,200
things where it, it's kind
again, a razor's edge, right

1309
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:25,240
where where you got to skirt
that thing.

1310
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:31,920
And Mormonism is unique in the
sense that a lot of our most

1311
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:35,600
sacred liturgy comes inside the
temple, right?

1312
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:40,000
Our, our Sunday meetings are
open to all, everyone come on

1313
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:44,720
in, right?
And but the temple is something

1314
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:48,680
different.
And I do agree with you, Adam,

1315
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:56,200
in the sense that there's a
desire to infuse more, more of

1316
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:58,960
symbology into our, our
sacrament meetings.

1317
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:04,640
However, sometimes I've wondered
if, if, if because I've seen a

1318
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:06,960
couple different faith
expressions here within

1319
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:11,280
fundamentalism and without a
temple there, that's where a lot

1320
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:13,680
of that starts to happen.
And so I've always kind of

1321
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:15,320
looked at that pretty
interestingly.

1322
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:18,920
And also, excuse me, I've always
found that very interesting.

1323
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:22,800
And to go along with that, there
is some, some early things that

1324
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:25,400
were said that, that you know,
when, when you're dealing with

1325
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:30,080
things that are your Sunday
meetings and, and what not, that

1326
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,240
stuff that's really geared
towards the Savior, right?

1327
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:38,080
Repentance.
And then as you progress towards

1328
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,680
the temple, that has more to do
with the, the, the work of the

1329
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:45,080
Father, right?
And a, that's where a lot of our

1330
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:49,760
ordinances come in at is, you
know, 'cause you'll never see an

1331
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:55,960
altar in a, in an LDS or a
Mormon kind of setting, right?

1332
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:58,400
Why will the altar is reserved
for the temple?

1333
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,400
And that took me forever to wrap
my head around.

1334
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:07,080
Like I remember talking to, oh,
who was it?

1335
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:10,200
It was right after I joined the
LDS church and I was like, well,

1336
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:12,880
been to a couple other churches.
Where's the altar right.

1337
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,720
There was always what was called
the altar call coming from a

1338
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:18,400
Protestant kind of thing where
you go up to the altar and

1339
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:22,080
you're kind of saved by the
laying on of hands and and that

1340
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:25,360
sort of thing as you accept
Christ in your life.

1341
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:29,360
And I found it odd that it
wasn't in, in, in Mormonism.

1342
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:32,480
Well, it was it was just in in
the temple.

1343
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:36,080
And then you go back in time and
find out that every family

1344
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:39,360
usually had a family altar in
their home, but that was

1345
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:41,920
something that was reserved for
something outside those

1346
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:45,840
meetings.
And so I guess with the absence

1347
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:48,640
of a temple, I could see where
someone would want to reach out

1348
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:52,200
for that a little bit more and
see that more present in a in a

1349
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:53,640
Sunday meeting.
You were going to say something,

1350
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:56,280
Adam.
I, well, I was just going to

1351
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:58,440
say, you know, that's an
interesting idea that we don't

1352
01:16:58,440 --> 01:17:04,120
have an altar because we kind of
do have an altar, even if we

1353
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:07,040
don't mean to, we have a table
and we do sacrament on it.

1354
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:11,440
And if that does not parallel
the purpose and function of an

1355
01:17:11,440 --> 01:17:16,920
altar, I don't know what would.
So in some way we, we do, we

1356
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:19,120
just kind of like casualize.
Is that a word?

1357
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:20,880
I made it in a word.
If it's not a word, it's a word.

1358
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:22,360
Now we can't.
Casualize.

1359
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:24,800
We're we're running with it.
That's a word, yeah.

1360
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:28,440
Yeah, yeah.
No, I, I, I get your point.

1361
01:17:28,440 --> 01:17:29,800
I think you're, you're correct
there.

1362
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:32,440
It definitely is a type of altar
for sure.

1363
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:36,400
I guess.
I guess it comes down to the

1364
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:38,560
type of ordinances being done
though, right?

1365
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:46,480
I suppose that again, thinking
from a largely Mormon mindset,

1366
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:50,760
when you think of the altar, you
think of the one in the temple,

1367
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:53,640
right?
And that just comes from the

1368
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:55,560
vernacular.
You know, you take your, your

1369
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:58,720
wife to the temple and you're
sealed across the altar and, and

1370
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:01,280
that sort of thing.
But you make a valid point.

1371
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:05,720
There is a type of altar already
in there And, and you know,

1372
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:10,440
typically it's just the, the,
the emblems of the ordinance

1373
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:15,280
that's, that's there for that.
And so that's a good example of

1374
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:17,680
the symbology.
So let me, let me just go ahead

1375
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:21,040
and explain this.
So in the Catholic Church, there

1376
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:24,160
are very much the franchises
that Justin described, OK.

1377
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:27,720
So for example, the traditional
and, and also not just

1378
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:30,280
franchises, but there are
varying degrees of what is

1379
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:32,360
called communion with the
Church.

1380
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:37,680
So essentially, if a group is in
is out of communion or is

1381
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:41,760
excommunicated from the body, or
more specifically from Rome,

1382
01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:44,640
then that group is not
considered within the church.

1383
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:45,920
But there are varying degrees of
this.

1384
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:48,640
So there's the Society of Saint
Pius, the 10th or something like

1385
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:51,520
that, that that does the
traditional Latin Mass in a very

1386
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:53,120
specific way and very specific
churches.

1387
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:54,960
And they have these missions
that are designed to sort of

1388
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:59,000
evangelize the Latin Mass in the
Western world or re evangelize

1389
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:00,840
the Latin Mass.
Because for those who don't

1390
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:05,040
know, in 1963 through 5 or
something like that, in the mid

1391
01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:08,040
1960's, the, the, the Vatican is
what calls all the shots.

1392
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:10,320
So the Vatican is like the Roman
version of Salt Lake City.

1393
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:13,240
OK.
And so the Vatican one day says

1394
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:15,360
we need to convene a council
because there's a lot of

1395
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:20,400
dissatisfaction among, you know,
Catholics globally.

1396
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:23,680
And we want to make some changes
to the way that we do things.

1397
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:26,560
And so very similarly to the way
that the LDS Church comes out

1398
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:28,280
and says, hey, we're going to
change these temple ordinances,

1399
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:33,280
the Catholic Church after 1962,
it would be like 636465.

1400
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:35,640
I think some Catholic in your
audience or former Catholic is

1401
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:37,960
probably just going to hate me
for this, but somewhere around

1402
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:41,560
there changes the Mass and it
includes a whole bunch of

1403
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:43,680
different changes.
But there were groups that said,

1404
01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:45,960
no, no, no, no, we don't really
accept the changes of the Second

1405
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:48,240
Vatican Council.
They're in like partial

1406
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:49,920
communion.
And then there are groups that

1407
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:52,280
are in full communion, say for
example, like the Diocese of

1408
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:55,680
Brownsville, TX, where I live,
that are authorized to do

1409
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:58,320
certain things that the rest of
the church doesn't generally do

1410
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:00,320
because it's sort of like a
franchise, the Bishop of the

1411
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:02,040
diocese.
Makes those decisions.

1412
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:05,320
So for example, there is a
traditional Latin Mass here in

1413
01:20:05,320 --> 01:20:07,200
Brownsville and there's one over
in McAllen.

1414
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:10,680
And those are, those are
administered by the diocese.

1415
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:13,520
So there's, there's these Latin
Masses that are administered by

1416
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:16,120
the, the Society of Saint Paul,
the Saint Pius the 10th or

1417
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:18,160
whatever it is, I forget the
exact name of the, the group.

1418
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:22,560
It's abbreviated SXSSSPX.
But then they, they have their

1419
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:25,000
own Latin Mass and it's sort of
like kind of in the church, but

1420
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:26,680
kind of outside the church.
And then there's like Church

1421
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:30,120
Latin Mass, but there's, there's
all these, you know, different

1422
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,960
ways, slightly different ways of
doing basically the same thing,

1423
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:37,280
which has been mostly unchanged
for like 1500 years or 1400

1424
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:41,000
years or something.
And in the Latin Mass, there is

1425
01:20:41,440 --> 01:20:45,080
a rule that there's this,
there's this, this, this box,

1426
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:48,720
they call it the Tabernacle.
And the Tabernacle is where the

1427
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:51,160
Eucharist, which is the bread
and the wine and they bless it

1428
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:54,680
in advance is stored during the
times that Mass is not

1429
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,200
happening.
And that Tabernacle is central

1430
01:20:57,200 --> 01:20:59,440
in the church.
It is central and it is higher

1431
01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:03,000
than the actual physical heads
and bodies of the church body.

1432
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:07,600
And then when mass happens or or
I guess inside of the church,

1433
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:12,440
the altar is placed front and
center to the to the like

1434
01:21:12,440 --> 01:21:15,040
physical, you know, construction
of the building.

1435
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:23,920
And that's because like all of
Mass is 1 long run up to the

1436
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,040
Eucharist, the Eucharist, which
is communion, which is the

1437
01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:28,360
sacrament.
It's like the culmination.

1438
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,880
It's like the whole point of the
reason you came was it all

1439
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:36,320
culminates in this, this it's
like a crescendo to the apex,

1440
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:41,320
which is the Eucharist.
And thus the altar where the,

1441
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:44,720
the, where the ordinance occurs
and the Tabernacle that houses

1442
01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:49,120
the the the the Eucharist after
having been blessed is front and

1443
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:54,200
center in the church.
We have our own altar, at least

1444
01:21:54,200 --> 01:21:57,400
by my argument anyway, because
it does contain on it the

1445
01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:00,320
symbols of the body and the
blood of Christ, and it's

1446
01:22:00,320 --> 01:22:02,680
supposed to represent the
atoning sacrifice.

1447
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:07,120
We stick it off in the side of
our churches and then we do the

1448
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:11,640
ordinance over off on the side
and then we administer.

1449
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:13,960
You know, we have rules about
how we administer with the right

1450
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:16,480
hand, for example, and it must
be administered by a member of

1451
01:22:16,480 --> 01:22:21,640
the priesthood, etcetera.
OK, well, another, like an

1452
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:24,080
example there is like, why would
our altar, because we have an

1453
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:26,040
altar, whether we like it or
not, or we describe it that way,

1454
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:28,280
why we have an altar?
Why would that not be front and

1455
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:30,200
center in the building?
It's like the most, it's the

1456
01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:32,600
reason we're there for sacrament
meeting, you know what I mean?

1457
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:38,480
And then another thing is in the
traditional Latin Mass, the, the

1458
01:22:38,480 --> 01:22:40,800
priest who performs the
blessing.

1459
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:43,640
So the, the, the, the, the, the,
the blessing and the, and the,

1460
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:46,360
and the Eucharistic prayer will
be performed with the

1461
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:48,320
congregation, including the
priest on their knees.

1462
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:50,360
And, and there's, there's a few
different things.

1463
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:51,840
There's, there's on their knees
and they stand and they, they do

1464
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:53,040
some different things
ritualistically.

1465
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:54,840
But generally the prayers are
performed on the knees.

1466
01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:58,880
And the priest is facing east.
And the reason he's facing east

1467
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:00,560
is 2 reasons.
Number one, it is supposed to

1468
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,000
symbolize like the rising sun,
the second coming of Christ.

1469
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:05,880
And 2nd, the idea is the
tradition holds that, that

1470
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:07,640
Christ was crucified facing
West.

1471
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:12,400
And so we face Christ
symbolically in his moment of

1472
01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:14,800
the atoning sacrifice, which is
the purpose for which we are all

1473
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:17,720
there in the performance of this
ordinance.

1474
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:21,160
And because the church and the
altar also generally face east,

1475
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:24,400
and there's like they have a
crucifix that faces W, that

1476
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:26,760
means that the body faces E,
which means that the priest has

1477
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:28,760
his back to the people.
Well, the reason he has his back

1478
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:30,680
to the people is not because he
doesn't care about them,

1479
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:32,560
Maurice, you know, sort of
holier than thou or something.

1480
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:36,720
But the idea is he's leading
them in this ordinance, and they

1481
01:23:36,720 --> 01:23:41,880
are orienting themselves in
physical space in a way that

1482
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:49,000
points you to the atoning
sacrifice, or as the Catholics

1483
01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:52,240
would call it, the gift of the
crucifixion.

1484
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:57,920
And there's so much meaning
packed into all those little

1485
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:02,440
things.
And none of that would be in

1486
01:24:02,440 --> 01:24:03,720
violation.
I mean, maybe I wouldn't, I

1487
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:05,240
wouldn't hang a crucifix in our
churches.

1488
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:07,800
OK, fine.
But like the idea of like, you

1489
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:10,240
know, the table where the
blessing is performed, being in

1490
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:14,640
the center and kneeling and
facing in the direction that

1491
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:17,640
symbolizes the second coming of
Christ during the performance of

1492
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:22,880
these rituals are little tiny
examples of things that why

1493
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:24,280
wouldn't we do something like
that, right?

1494
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:27,640
Why wouldn't we imbue more
meaning rather than last into

1495
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:29,240
the things that we do?
You get what I'm saying?

1496
01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:31,360
Like that's kind of like been,
that was sort of my reason I

1497
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:34,280
called you in the 1st place.
As I said, hey man, there's

1498
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:36,680
nothing that says we can't do
some of this stuff, and it makes

1499
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:38,720
perfect sense.
Sure.

1500
01:24:39,440 --> 01:24:41,760
Justin, I saw you leaning in.
Is there something you wanted to

1501
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:45,640
say and then I won't respond?
There sure.

1502
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:48,320
I personally, I, I, I don't
necessarily disagree with any of

1503
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:50,080
that.
I don't even think there's

1504
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:52,120
necessarily anything wrong with
the with the cross.

1505
01:24:54,840 --> 01:25:00,280
I think it could add more, you
know, relevance and spirituality

1506
01:25:00,280 --> 01:25:04,200
to the ordinance.
My only concern would be

1507
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:09,280
tradition, that becoming
tradition and that becoming an

1508
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:12,720
enforced thing.
And basically maybe you'd say

1509
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:16,200
becoming a Rami emptim and the,
you know, as described in the

1510
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:20,360
Book of Mormon.
Whereas often, often among us

1511
01:25:20,360 --> 01:25:23,240
mortals, you know, when we take
steps to try to become more

1512
01:25:23,240 --> 01:25:28,160
holy, it also can
correspondingly bring a a holier

1513
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:31,880
than thou attitude perspective
to our to our lives.

1514
01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:34,120
So I'd be a little bit concerned
about about that.

1515
01:25:34,120 --> 01:25:39,560
But yeah, you know, and you
brought up orders in the

1516
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:42,560
Catholic Church, which I was,
you know, that's all something

1517
01:25:42,560 --> 01:25:44,640
that I found.
I find very, very interesting

1518
01:25:44,640 --> 01:25:48,800
these different ideas because,
you know, you've got one body,

1519
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:52,280
but the idea is, you know,
you've got the the hospitalers

1520
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:54,240
who are focused on healing
people physically.

1521
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:57,560
You know, you've got the
Carmelites that are taking, you

1522
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,200
know, certain vows, you know,
and not wearing shoes and things

1523
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:08,480
to to to bring about God's work
or got fulfill, you know,

1524
01:26:08,480 --> 01:26:13,000
Christ's Commission to them in
different ways and to approach

1525
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:14,840
their spirituality in in
different ways.

1526
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:18,400
And I think that's actually the
kind of a a cool thing in in in

1527
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:21,840
Catholicism.
And I think that again, like,

1528
01:26:21,840 --> 01:26:23,840
you know, you're talking about a
more ritualized after.

1529
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:28,000
I don't think there's anything
wrong with that at all.

1530
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:33,960
And I could even see, you know,
a church that does their

1531
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:36,720
sacraments in a, in a more
ritualized manner like that to

1532
01:26:37,040 --> 01:26:38,800
bring more emphasis into that
ritual.

1533
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:43,280
And yeah, I think that's
something that maybe people

1534
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:44,600
should.
There's, there's some ideas

1535
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:46,080
there I think are worth
considering.

1536
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:48,920
Absolutely.
I just be cautious that they

1537
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:53,680
don't become overly dogmatized
tradition, right?

1538
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:59,120
And a lot of the benefits from
that highly ritualized Mass, you

1539
01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:01,160
know, and they're, they're
Eucharist the, you know, our,

1540
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:06,120
compared to our sacrament is I
guess is a difference made in

1541
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:10,280
the temple or temple worship.
And personally, I actually kind

1542
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:14,880
of have a feeling that that, you
know, the Mass is more of a of a

1543
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:20,120
carryover from the old
ritualistic temple ordinances

1544
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:23,240
that they, that they had the
fragments that they were able to

1545
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:25,600
piece together and hold onto and
they brought it into their, into

1546
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:28,480
their weekly meeting.
And, you know, there's

1547
01:27:28,480 --> 01:27:30,240
definitely some, some beauty to
that.

1548
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:34,360
It could be very powerful
spiritually, but again, it, it

1549
01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:37,000
also though would take away a
certain aspect of the, of the

1550
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:41,640
sandboxiness I think of, of our,
of our, our Sacramento

1551
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:44,640
ordinance.
And I think that if you look at

1552
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:49,640
the Last Supper itself, this was
a, this was a dinner, right?

1553
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:52,040
I mean, it was a, a Hebrew
holiday, right?

1554
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:55,720
And there was a, it was a semi
ritualized dinner, but also it

1555
01:27:55,720 --> 01:28:00,280
was also kind of a dinner.
And I the, the feelings I get is

1556
01:28:00,280 --> 01:28:04,560
that the sacrament isn't
intended to be, there's a reason

1557
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:07,840
the sacrament isn't an only
temple ordinance, I believe.

1558
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:10,440
I think it's out of the temple
because this is something that's

1559
01:28:10,440 --> 01:28:14,040
intended to be done potentially
even more casually to the point

1560
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:16,960
of with your own family in your
own home, if you feel the need

1561
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:20,000
to, or if you've got friends
coming over and they're

1562
01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:21,840
believers as well.
And it's a Wednesday and you're

1563
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:27,160
gonna, and you know, and you're
gonna watch a game, but you also

1564
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:30,000
wanted to talk theology.
And hey, you know what, maybe we

1565
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:32,720
watch the game and then maybe we
do a sacrament and then we'll

1566
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:35,080
talk some theology and have a
more spiritual meaning.

1567
01:28:35,080 --> 01:28:39,960
I think there's if, if it
becomes overly ritualized, it

1568
01:28:39,960 --> 01:28:42,880
might be harder to do it more
casually, like in your own home

1569
01:28:43,440 --> 01:28:45,920
or in, in other types of
contexts, I guess.

1570
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:49,760
So that would be a, a caveat I'd
be slightly concerned with.

1571
01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:53,040
But I think an opportunity or an
experience or at times to do it

1572
01:28:53,040 --> 01:28:56,160
that way could be really cool.
And I think that's a great idea.

1573
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:00,120
Adam, let me ask you this
question because you were just

1574
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:01,560
there.
You have a grandmother that's

1575
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:05,960
still active in it sounds like
in the in the Catholic Church.

1576
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:11,040
Does the Catholic Church have
what's considered an open Canon?

1577
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:14,480
No.
OK.

1578
01:29:14,480 --> 01:29:18,080
So yeah, well, I'll just, I'll
say no and then I'll let you ask

1579
01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:19,600
the follow up because I'm sure
there's a follow up.

1580
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:25,080
Coming there is so Mormonism is,
is unique and and I think this

1581
01:29:25,080 --> 01:29:30,760
goes back to the symmetry or
the, the, the geometry of or

1582
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:35,920
geography, if you will, of
certain reasons on why things

1583
01:29:35,920 --> 01:29:37,440
are laid out.
Because I was thinking about

1584
01:29:37,440 --> 01:29:38,920
that as you were asking the
question.

1585
01:29:39,400 --> 01:29:45,600
Why is the, the, the, the, the
stand or, or the, the podium, if

1586
01:29:45,600 --> 01:29:47,480
you will, front and center
there?

1587
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:54,640
No other church I can think of
within Christianity puts as much

1588
01:29:54,640 --> 01:30:00,920
weight on personal revelation as
or revelation period as

1589
01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:04,200
Mormonism does.
To the extent that we don't say

1590
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:06,760
that we have a closed cannon,
right?

1591
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:10,360
That that cannon is still open
depending upon, you know,

1592
01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:12,320
meeting certain criteria and
whatnot.

1593
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:17,200
And so maybe the the answer to
that question is, well, the

1594
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:21,640
reason the stand is where it is,
is because our canon's not

1595
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:24,920
closed, right?
And we have instances in DNC

1596
01:30:25,280 --> 01:30:29,800
where the Lord is specific, you
know, when when you know someone

1597
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:34,000
speaks by the spirit, it's as if
it was revelation, right?

1598
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:38,880
So maybe it's a different
emphasis in that, in that in

1599
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:42,840
that camp, I guess, right.
Catholicism versus Mormonism, a

1600
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:44,960
closed Canon versus an open
Canon.

1601
01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:50,560
This idea of both personal and
general revelation still to come

1602
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:52,560
forward.
Does that make sense?

1603
01:30:53,360 --> 01:30:55,600
It does the one thing I would
say.

1604
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:58,320
So I think that that problem,
that is probably part of the

1605
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:01,360
reason.
But I would also say that when

1606
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:06,200
you ask the question, that the
question of does your church

1607
01:31:06,200 --> 01:31:10,280
possess an open cannon probably
mean something different to a

1608
01:31:10,280 --> 01:31:13,200
Catholic than it does to a
Mormon.

1609
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:19,840
You know, I think as Mormons, at
least the Mormons I know, you

1610
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:21,360
know, the the way I would
describe it is like this.

1611
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:23,480
And and the other time I ever
came on your podcast, I

1612
01:31:23,480 --> 01:31:25,040
mentioned this.
You know, I think of scripture

1613
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:27,720
is kind of like a continuum.
There are things that I very,

1614
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:30,320
very obviously define as not
inspired.

1615
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:35,360
You know, I don't know the a Joe
Biden speech is not inspired,

1616
01:31:35,360 --> 01:31:39,240
You know what I mean?
But the Book of Mormon is very

1617
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:42,280
obviously inspired.
It's it's sort of like, you

1618
01:31:42,280 --> 01:31:44,560
know, there, there are things
that I would consider not

1619
01:31:44,560 --> 01:31:46,080
inspired at all.
And there are things that I

1620
01:31:46,080 --> 01:31:49,040
would consider absolutely,
unequivocally inspired.

1621
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:50,800
But then there are things that
are kind of in the middle,

1622
01:31:51,440 --> 01:31:53,560
right?
There are, I don't know, like

1623
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:56,560
you ever read the book of the
law, the Lord by James Strang?

1624
01:31:56,560 --> 01:31:58,920
Like there's some really good
stuff in there.

1625
01:31:59,080 --> 01:32:02,040
And then there's some really
weird stuff about like the

1626
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:04,320
coronation of James Strang and
that kind of a thing that just

1627
01:32:04,320 --> 01:32:07,520
get me like, I don't know, man,
but there's some good stuff.

1628
01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:10,080
Or you read the Quran, right?
There's stuff in the Quran where

1629
01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:12,720
I go, hey, man, I get that, that
makes sense.

1630
01:32:12,720 --> 01:32:15,720
And maybe there's like some
subject on which I had, you

1631
01:32:15,720 --> 01:32:18,080
know, sought for light and I
couldn't quite find an answer in

1632
01:32:18,080 --> 01:32:20,080
our scriptures because they just
didn't spell it out in the same

1633
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:21,600
way.
And then and then you find it

1634
01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:23,640
there.
I have no problem with the idea

1635
01:32:23,640 --> 01:32:27,120
that that's, you know, if, if,
if you pray for confirmation and

1636
01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:28,720
it makes sense and it's
consistent with eternal

1637
01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:31,360
principles and the Lord gives it
to you, I see no reason why the

1638
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:33,600
things that are contained in
there may not also be sort of

1639
01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:36,280
like augmentative truths to the
Canon that we possess.

1640
01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:41,720
And I think that what I just
said is totally acceptable to

1641
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:44,240
most Catholics.
Like, maybe the Pope wouldn't

1642
01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:46,920
admit that, but I think that
what I just described is

1643
01:32:46,920 --> 01:32:50,000
probably something that most
Catholics are completely fine

1644
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:51,800
with.
I don't think anybody would

1645
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:54,600
argue that, like, inspiration is
found literally only within the

1646
01:32:54,600 --> 01:32:56,760
Catholic Bible, which, by the
way, is different from the King

1647
01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:01,240
James that has extra books.
But I think they would probably

1648
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:05,000
say, well, yeah, but like the
actual church is not going to

1649
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:10,640
recognize new bodies or volumes
of official scripture at any

1650
01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:12,600
point in the future.
And that's what they mean by

1651
01:33:12,600 --> 01:33:14,960
closed Canon.
You know, there's there's guys

1652
01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:18,240
like Aquinas and Augustine and
these people that have gone and

1653
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:20,880
written these really, you know,
important, you know, summa

1654
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:23,240
theological and these kinds of
things that have really added to

1655
01:33:23,240 --> 01:33:25,120
the church's understanding of
theology.

1656
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:28,240
And the church will get kind of
like a wink and a nod to, well,

1657
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:31,400
that's not an official doctrine,
but it's pretty good.

1658
01:33:31,400 --> 01:33:38,320
And so it's a closed Canon, but
it's not as inflexible as that

1659
01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:40,840
sounds.
Meanwhile, in Mormonism, the

1660
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:43,880
basic idea is like, no, really,
God will continue to just reveal

1661
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:46,480
things to people forever,
basically.

1662
01:33:46,480 --> 01:33:49,080
And at some point, you know, the
one mighty and strong or the

1663
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:51,280
second, you know, the, the
millennial reign or whatever it

1664
01:33:51,280 --> 01:33:57,840
is, at some point we may get
like really important revelation

1665
01:33:57,840 --> 01:33:59,800
that applies to all the members
of Zion.

1666
01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:05,000
And so it's it's a lot more like
overt and open in the Mormon

1667
01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:08,320
church.
But I don't know that your

1668
01:34:08,360 --> 01:34:14,440
average Catholic really thinks
that like the Bible is the only

1669
01:34:14,440 --> 01:34:20,320
inspired thing that exists.
But that lack of official

1670
01:34:20,320 --> 01:34:24,680
openness would explain why, like
rituals are defined and they're

1671
01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:28,000
not going to change unless the
guy is in charge changing.

1672
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:33,720
Whereas in the Mormon church you
have a lot more latitude because

1673
01:34:33,720 --> 01:34:35,320
we expect you to get personal
revelation.

1674
01:34:38,720 --> 01:34:41,640
Gotcha, sorry, I was about to
talk and I realized my mic was

1675
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:44,240
muted.
Still, I I could definitely see

1676
01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:49,200
that.
I, I do think that I'm a guy, I

1677
01:34:49,200 --> 01:34:51,760
guess and and take it for what
it is.

1678
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:58,320
I've seen where where, you know,
certain innovation has led to

1679
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:02,600
apostasy and I'm always a little
nervous about that right before

1680
01:35:02,600 --> 01:35:06,680
we completely reduce something,
let's make sure all the

1681
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:09,760
unintended consequences have
kind of been accounted and

1682
01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:14,360
accounted for as best as we can.
So but but I get what you're

1683
01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:16,520
saying, right?
I was just saying, well, you

1684
01:35:16,520 --> 01:35:18,080
know, it, it had me thinking,
why?

1685
01:35:18,080 --> 01:35:23,680
Why is that that, that in in
other religious traditions

1686
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:27,440
there, you know, the, the, the,
the altar is front and center

1687
01:35:27,440 --> 01:35:30,160
and then the guy talking is off
to the side and it seems to be

1688
01:35:30,160 --> 01:35:33,680
reversed in Mormonism there.
Justin, I saw you lean in.

1689
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:38,600
What did you have?
I mean, not a whole lot, but

1690
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,360
just thinking about, you know,
from my perspective, is Catholic

1691
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:44,160
Canon open or closed?
I mean, from my perspective,

1692
01:35:45,480 --> 01:35:49,000
it's open just by the very, you
know, in my study in Eastern

1693
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:54,520
Orthodox, realizing that this
whole stood celibacy thing was,

1694
01:35:54,600 --> 01:35:59,440
was not originally a thing and
it became a thing after the

1695
01:35:59,440 --> 01:36:01,960
split and the Catholic and why
did it become a thing?

1696
01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:04,680
Because Catholics had their
thinkers that said, Hey, we

1697
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:07,000
think that that priests should
be celibate.

1698
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:10,240
And and it's, they didn't write
it in scriptures, right, But

1699
01:36:10,240 --> 01:36:13,240
they put it in their creeds and
things and it basically became

1700
01:36:13,240 --> 01:36:15,240
candidates.
So I mean, I mean, there's

1701
01:36:15,240 --> 01:36:17,920
definitely whether they
recognize it or not.

1702
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:21,720
There's definitely innovations
agreed to complete.

1703
01:36:21,800 --> 01:36:24,720
You know, they have a book that
happened just to just to just to

1704
01:36:24,720 --> 01:36:27,080
give you like some real
concrete, I mean, interrupt you,

1705
01:36:27,080 --> 01:36:28,680
I'm sorry.
But they have a book called the

1706
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:30,040
Catechism of the Catholic
Church.

1707
01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:32,440
And it's like the Doctrine and
Covenants for Catholics.

1708
01:36:32,720 --> 01:36:35,520
And it's all the things that all
the councils, the Council of

1709
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:40,480
Trent and Nicaea and the Vatican
City in Vatican 2 and all these

1710
01:36:40,480 --> 01:36:43,040
things have agreed on.
They put it in the Catechism of

1711
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:46,440
the Catholic Church.
And that's the rules of official

1712
01:36:46,440 --> 01:36:48,680
Church doctrine.
Right.

1713
01:36:48,680 --> 01:36:52,000
And I understand the theology
around that is that in these

1714
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:56,520
these councils were appointed by
God and so therefore these

1715
01:36:56,520 --> 01:36:59,200
people in these councils are
appointed by God to get these

1716
01:36:59,200 --> 01:37:01,240
answers.
And so even though it's not

1717
01:37:01,720 --> 01:37:05,040
written as Revelation, the
underlying implication is that

1718
01:37:05,040 --> 01:37:07,920
that's it was God's intended
pattern to be able to answer

1719
01:37:07,920 --> 01:37:09,040
these types of.
Questions.

1720
01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:11,160
Well, there's even a doctrine
that supports that.

1721
01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:14,360
So there's a doctrine in the
Catholic Church called papal

1722
01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:17,840
infallibility, which is the
basic idea that when the Pope

1723
01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:20,840
issues an official, I don't want
to say an official declaration

1724
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:22,760
because that might just piss off
some fundamentalists, you know,

1725
01:37:22,760 --> 01:37:25,320
the official declaration.
But but when the Pope issues an

1726
01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:29,320
official declaration, not one or
two, but at this point I'm like

1727
01:37:29,320 --> 01:37:33,640
official declaration 500, when
when the Pope issues an official

1728
01:37:33,640 --> 01:37:38,880
declaration regarding spiritual
matters, he does so only under

1729
01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:43,720
the inspiration of the Lord, and
thus he is infallible in that

1730
01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:48,000
regard.
Now that doesn't mean that the

1731
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:53,640
Pope is infallible in things he
says, but the basic idea is that

1732
01:37:54,520 --> 01:38:02,800
when he is inspired to issue a
formal opinion and in addition

1733
01:38:02,800 --> 01:38:07,080
to the catechism to call a
council, etcetera on spiritual

1734
01:38:07,080 --> 01:38:10,800
matters, he is doing so at the
hand of the Lord.

1735
01:38:11,680 --> 01:38:15,720
Well, OK, for the sake of
argument, let's say that's true,

1736
01:38:15,880 --> 01:38:16,840
right?
I don't believe that, but let's

1737
01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:19,280
say it's true.
Well, that means he's getting

1738
01:38:19,280 --> 01:38:20,440
revelation.
You know what I mean?

1739
01:38:20,440 --> 01:38:22,080
Like that's, that's literally
what that means.

1740
01:38:22,640 --> 01:38:24,320
There is no other way to
interpret that.

1741
01:38:24,720 --> 01:38:28,040
So I agree with you.
They they may not refer to it as

1742
01:38:28,040 --> 01:38:30,560
an open cannon, but it is, it
has to be, because otherwise you

1743
01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:32,640
wouldn't have the doctrine of
papal infallibility, because all

1744
01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:35,160
these matters would already have
been settled.

1745
01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:43,880
No, I can, I can see that.
I, I, I guess I look at that and

1746
01:38:43,880 --> 01:38:47,720
I think that's what makes Joseph
Smith so unique though, right,

1747
01:38:48,200 --> 01:38:52,320
Is because it's not merely, hey,
we're going to form a council on

1748
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:54,720
whatever comes out of this
council is obviously going to be

1749
01:38:54,720 --> 01:38:57,920
gospel, right?
If we look at the Doctrine and

1750
01:38:57,920 --> 01:39:01,000
Covenants, I can't think of
another book of Scripture, to be

1751
01:39:01,000 --> 01:39:04,840
honest with you, where you hear
the Lord specifically talking

1752
01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:08,960
that directly, right?
Barely, barely.

1753
01:39:08,960 --> 01:39:12,200
Thus saith the Lord.
I mean, there is no doubt who's

1754
01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:17,040
talking to you in that moment.
And so I would say that even

1755
01:39:17,040 --> 01:39:21,040
though they in in that instance
where you can say, yeah, well,

1756
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:23,520
they get together and obviously
whatever comes out of that is

1757
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:30,240
the will of the Lord.
It's a little in my mind and I

1758
01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:32,360
don't mean to piss off any
Catholics or whatever.

1759
01:39:32,920 --> 01:39:35,960
There's a difference between,
hey, we got together, we prayed

1760
01:39:35,960 --> 01:39:38,880
a lot about it and this, you
know, we think this is a good

1761
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:42,520
idea versus verily, verily, thus
saith the Lord.

1762
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:47,280
I mean, look, let's let's get
real specific here, right, John,

1763
01:39:47,480 --> 01:39:52,360
or excuse me, Wilford Woodruff
was very careful that, or maybe

1764
01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:55,920
he wasn't very careful.
However, it was that was not a

1765
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:59,480
thus saith the Lord revelation
official declaration number one,

1766
01:39:59,480 --> 01:40:01,160
right.
It doesn't read like that.

1767
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:04,160
It doesn't have that same feel
to it that the rest of the

1768
01:40:04,160 --> 01:40:08,040
Doctrine and Covenants has.
And so in in some ways I see.

1769
01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:13,480
Those that council thing there
being that, that the Catholics

1770
01:40:13,480 --> 01:40:17,200
use those official councils as
kind of a surrogate for that,

1771
01:40:17,200 --> 01:40:21,880
but you don't get the same punch
that you get in say, the

1772
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:23,760
Doctrine and Covenants or
something like that.

1773
01:40:25,840 --> 01:40:28,920
So Justin, anything you want to
add to that?

1774
01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:33,720
I just, I just, yeah, I guess.
I wonder though.

1775
01:40:33,760 --> 01:40:40,720
So going back to the main topic
here, there's a couple, I, I

1776
01:40:40,720 --> 01:40:42,320
guess I have a couple
observations.

1777
01:40:43,200 --> 01:40:48,720
One of them is that the LDS
Church in their meeting seems to

1778
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:56,520
do a, a very good job at, at
teaching the teaching and

1779
01:40:56,520 --> 01:40:58,640
preaching the, the important,
the basics.

1780
01:40:58,640 --> 01:41:02,920
I mean, I think they do a very
good job at fulfilling that the

1781
01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:05,960
command about preaching nothing
but repentance in a way, because

1782
01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:09,760
they focus on, on a lot of the,
the, the basic principles that

1783
01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:12,960
apply to us always.
And it's always valuable to be

1784
01:41:12,960 --> 01:41:15,960
reminded because these things
are foundational to our, our

1785
01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:19,120
beliefs and also our lives and
fundamentalism.

1786
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:24,160
I believe the focus is more on
meat rather than milk.

1787
01:41:24,240 --> 01:41:30,440
Maybe you could say, and I think
that there's a place for meat,

1788
01:41:30,920 --> 01:41:33,320
but the, but the milk's got to
be there.

1789
01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:37,400
It's got to be there.
So like I, so just in regards to

1790
01:41:37,400 --> 01:41:42,240
the, this idea of, of
revelation, right, man,

1791
01:41:42,240 --> 01:41:45,040
sometimes I feel like people
feel like they've got to, if

1792
01:41:45,040 --> 01:41:47,080
they get called up to speak,
then they've got to like

1793
01:41:47,400 --> 01:41:49,400
introduce some new revelation or
something, right?

1794
01:41:49,400 --> 01:41:52,000
They've got to share something
that's never been shared before.

1795
01:41:52,000 --> 01:41:53,800
That's going to be completely
innovative.

1796
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:58,520
And, and I think that is a
completely wrong approach.

1797
01:41:59,720 --> 01:42:03,360
I think that like, well, OK,
here's an example.

1798
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:06,400
On my mission, often we'd have
testimony meetings even among

1799
01:42:06,400 --> 01:42:10,080
the missionaries, right?
And we would just do nothing but

1800
01:42:10,080 --> 01:42:14,040
just share our, our own
testimonies and the context of

1801
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:16,120
the things that we've been doing
and the things that have

1802
01:42:16,120 --> 01:42:17,880
happened.
And they were some of the most

1803
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:20,840
powerful spiritual, you know,
meetings that I had on my

1804
01:42:20,840 --> 01:42:23,880
mission compared to sacrament
meeting, compared to even like a

1805
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:25,560
mission conference and things
like that.

1806
01:42:26,840 --> 01:42:29,440
I haven't really seen a whole
lot of like testimony meetings

1807
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:32,520
among fundamentalists where
people just get together and

1808
01:42:32,560 --> 01:42:34,520
we're going to go around the
circle and just share our

1809
01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:36,800
testimonies and, and, and feel
that.

1810
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:39,480
And, you know, that's kind of a
shame.

1811
01:42:39,480 --> 01:42:41,600
And there's also, like I said, I
think I feel like there's an

1812
01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:44,280
expectation that if you're, if
you, if you're called up to

1813
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:47,200
speak, that you've got to have
something completely brand new

1814
01:42:47,200 --> 01:42:50,080
and innovative.
And I think it's fine if, if

1815
01:42:50,080 --> 01:42:52,520
there's something there, I don't
think there's anything wrong

1816
01:42:52,520 --> 01:42:54,080
with sharing it.
But but then when that's the

1817
01:42:54,080 --> 01:42:56,200
expectation, it creates a
certain kind of pressure, I

1818
01:42:56,200 --> 01:43:00,080
think as well.
And that leads to maybe

1819
01:43:00,120 --> 01:43:03,800
sometimes talks kind of going
off the rails, whether it's

1820
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:07,480
because out of fear of not
having something like that and

1821
01:43:07,480 --> 01:43:13,720
and then devolving into talking
about feelings or, or a feeling

1822
01:43:13,720 --> 01:43:15,240
that, Hey, you've got to do
that.

1823
01:43:15,240 --> 01:43:19,840
And, and some weird ideas start
coming out, some weird doctrines

1824
01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:22,200
start coming out.
And, you know, I think it's

1825
01:43:22,200 --> 01:43:24,800
important to know that it's,
it's the primary and totally

1826
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:27,520
fine to, to get called up on
sacrament.

1827
01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:31,320
Just say, Hey, I want to share
some scriptures about, about

1828
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:34,200
faith and how you gain faith.
And here's some scriptures on it

1829
01:43:34,200 --> 01:43:37,360
that are really beautiful.
And these apply to me.

1830
01:43:37,360 --> 01:43:41,800
And you know, here's, here's my
testimony of, of how I attain

1831
01:43:41,800 --> 01:43:46,480
my, you know, testimony of, of
Christ as my Savior and, and

1832
01:43:46,480 --> 01:43:48,440
just leave it at that.
It doesn't have to, you don't

1833
01:43:48,440 --> 01:43:55,400
have to reinvent the revelation.
You can just you can innovate on

1834
01:43:55,400 --> 01:43:59,000
the wheel.
You know, has it occurred to

1835
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:01,360
either one of you that they just
gave us the worst name?

1836
01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:03,480
Like the LDS church is the ones
that's really focused on the

1837
01:44:03,480 --> 01:44:05,720
fundamentals.
We try to be the MJ, you know

1838
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:06,440
what I mean?
Like.

1839
01:44:09,280 --> 01:44:11,960
No, that's, that's absolutely
100% true.

1840
01:44:12,720 --> 01:44:15,160
Yeah.
No, we, we did, you know, I, I

1841
01:44:15,160 --> 01:44:17,880
do.
I think Justin brings up another

1842
01:44:17,880 --> 01:44:22,680
good point though, right?
Which is teaching the doctrine,

1843
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:27,960
right.
That's a, that is such a, a

1844
01:44:27,960 --> 01:44:34,680
tricky thing to do, right?
Because you have the scriptures,

1845
01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:36,680
right?
We'd all not have a problem

1846
01:44:36,680 --> 01:44:39,840
calling that the doctrine,
right?

1847
01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:44,440
Certainly we can look at Joseph
and Brigham and John Taylor and

1848
01:44:44,720 --> 01:44:47,760
and go, that's the doctrine.
And then maybe it's touched on

1849
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:49,960
by others throughout Mormon
history.

1850
01:44:51,440 --> 01:44:54,800
Certainly guys like Musser, I
think you could probably lump in

1851
01:44:54,800 --> 01:44:58,400
there as well.
But in teaching the doctrine

1852
01:44:58,560 --> 01:45:03,760
and, and let me let me ask you,
I, I want to throw this one

1853
01:45:03,760 --> 01:45:05,800
first at Justin, then at then at
you Adam.

1854
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:11,560
How do you make sure that when
you're in that position of just

1855
01:45:12,040 --> 01:45:15,720
teaching the doctrine, that it's
the doctrine and maybe not the

1856
01:45:15,720 --> 01:45:19,920
doctrine as you understand it,
right?

1857
01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:25,520
Where's the litmus test there?
Because so often I think we can

1858
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:28,280
allow our own biases to creep in
there.

1859
01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:32,440
Right.
Well, I think it's inevitable

1860
01:45:32,440 --> 01:45:34,560
that our own biases are going to
creep in there again.

1861
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:37,360
I think that's part of the
sandbox nature of, of the whole

1862
01:45:37,360 --> 01:45:41,200
experience, the, and the, the
opportunity to learn and grow.

1863
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:47,680
However, I think it's important
to and, and this is, again, this

1864
01:45:47,680 --> 01:45:50,520
is something I saw a lot and,
and when I was, you know, in the

1865
01:45:50,520 --> 01:45:53,640
LDS church and I don't see as
often and fundamentalism is, is

1866
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:56,680
scriptures being shared in, in
the things that you're talking

1867
01:45:56,680 --> 01:46:01,240
about to, to provide a, the
baseline standard.

1868
01:46:01,240 --> 01:46:04,440
And I mean, I, I can't, I mean,
when I was in the LDS church, I

1869
01:46:04,440 --> 01:46:08,600
don't think I ever saw a talk on
Sunday where it wasn't.

1870
01:46:08,600 --> 01:46:10,280
I mean, I guess maybe things
started changing.

1871
01:46:10,280 --> 01:46:14,960
Maybe you're sharing a, a enzyme
article for conference, quoting

1872
01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:18,040
that instead.
But, but typically, you know,

1873
01:46:18,040 --> 01:46:20,760
outside of that, it's mostly,
you know, you see a lot of

1874
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:22,360
emphasis and focus on
scriptures.

1875
01:46:22,360 --> 01:46:23,520
And let's start with the
scripture.

1876
01:46:23,520 --> 01:46:25,760
I'm going to read the scripture
of the congregation to establish

1877
01:46:25,760 --> 01:46:28,400
the baseline.
And then maybe you innovate on

1878
01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:31,680
it and you go off on a weird
place, but at least you share

1879
01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:36,200
that that baseline truth and the
people listening can have the

1880
01:46:36,200 --> 01:46:39,320
spirit and they can understand
it that way or choose not to

1881
01:46:39,320 --> 01:46:42,160
understand it that way.
But it, it to me that shows a

1882
01:46:42,160 --> 01:46:45,600
certain amount of
responsibility, right?

1883
01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:49,240
Because I think, I think when
you're, especially in church,

1884
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:51,960
you, if you hold the priesthood,
especially you're, you're

1885
01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:55,280
essentially speaking in the name
of God.

1886
01:46:55,920 --> 01:46:59,640
And that shouldn't be a light
thing.

1887
01:47:00,960 --> 01:47:05,840
And so how do you, how do you
navigate that?

1888
01:47:05,840 --> 01:47:09,360
I think with a lot of time and
experience, you can get these

1889
01:47:09,360 --> 01:47:11,920
great, great orders like we saw
in the early days and the

1890
01:47:11,920 --> 01:47:16,360
restoration and, and you know, a
few here and there nowadays in

1891
01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:21,200
fundamentalism and in Mormonism.
But you get there through

1892
01:47:21,200 --> 01:47:23,960
experience, right?
And you get that experience, I

1893
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:26,840
think by starting with taking,
saying, OK, this is the big

1894
01:47:26,840 --> 01:47:28,680
responsibility.
I don't want to spread, I don't

1895
01:47:28,680 --> 01:47:32,160
want to preach lies.
And so therefore I'm going to

1896
01:47:32,360 --> 01:47:35,320
lean heavily on the scriptures.
And there's nothing wrong with

1897
01:47:35,320 --> 01:47:38,680
that as a, as a way of, of
speaking and, and preaching in

1898
01:47:38,680 --> 01:47:43,400
in to the congregation at church
to say, Hey, I'm what do I know

1899
01:47:43,400 --> 01:47:45,160
about repentance?
Maybe I don't know a whole lot

1900
01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:46,400
about it.
Maybe I don't have any great

1901
01:47:46,400 --> 01:47:48,800
ideas on it.
So I'll just share some

1902
01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:51,160
scriptures that paint the
picture and I'll just help

1903
01:47:51,160 --> 01:47:54,720
connect the dots and put them in
this order and talk about

1904
01:47:55,480 --> 01:47:58,520
frankly, even even just sharing
the context, right.

1905
01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:01,280
One of the easiest, simplest
ways to give, in my opinion, of

1906
01:48:01,280 --> 01:48:06,240
giving a powerful talk is to
share a scripture, but explain

1907
01:48:06,240 --> 01:48:10,320
the context first and go into
the details about the story

1908
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:14,640
around how this first came out.
What was going on in the society

1909
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:16,240
and the culture in the world at
that time.

1910
01:48:16,240 --> 01:48:18,640
What was the person preaching?
What was he up against?

1911
01:48:18,640 --> 01:48:21,880
What was he facing?
What was his life story that

1912
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:27,320
brought him here to give this,
you know, to give this message.

1913
01:48:27,960 --> 01:48:33,360
And I think when you do that,
it's it's, it's really easy to

1914
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:37,880
have a very powerful spiritual
message that's going to feed the

1915
01:48:37,880 --> 01:48:40,440
congregation very well wherever
you're at.

1916
01:48:40,440 --> 01:48:42,320
And even if somebody's.
I'm.

1917
01:48:42,640 --> 01:48:46,040
I'm way beyond needing to talk
about baptism.

1918
01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:48,880
It doesn't matter though,
because it's still founded on

1919
01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:51,640
these foundational truths and
it's still inspiring the same

1920
01:48:51,640 --> 01:48:54,920
spirits going to testify of the
truth of what you're Speaking

1921
01:48:54,920 --> 01:48:58,640
of.
So to long answer short, I think

1922
01:48:58,640 --> 01:49:02,560
a heck of a lot more scriptures
in our talks, using that as the

1923
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:05,080
foundation of our, of the things
that we speak about.

1924
01:49:05,080 --> 01:49:08,800
And I guess again, that can be
tricky if you're called up on

1925
01:49:08,800 --> 01:49:12,160
the spot and you know, you
haven't opened your scriptures

1926
01:49:12,160 --> 01:49:16,200
in, in the last few weeks and
that that can be a bit of a

1927
01:49:16,200 --> 01:49:18,640
problem, right, which shows the
need to be prepared.

1928
01:49:18,920 --> 01:49:22,480
And, but I think that's also how
you improve that is, is the

1929
01:49:22,480 --> 01:49:27,320
emphasis and focus on preparing
for, for our worship meetings.

1930
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:30,120
And that's something that was
something that I imagined is

1931
01:49:30,120 --> 01:49:33,040
also in the Catholic Church, but
I saw in the Orthodox Church the

1932
01:49:33,320 --> 01:49:36,760
this is around preparation for
for your Sunday meeting.

1933
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:38,960
We're taking are taken very,
very seriously.

1934
01:49:39,040 --> 01:49:41,480
The prayers you say beforehand,
the diet.

1935
01:49:41,480 --> 01:49:44,520
There's a there's a, you know,
these certain days you eat this

1936
01:49:44,520 --> 01:49:47,000
or you don't eat that.
And all of these things are

1937
01:49:47,200 --> 01:49:53,880
culminating throughout the week
in preparation and focus on when

1938
01:49:53,880 --> 01:49:56,200
you go, when you, when you go
to, with the congregation to

1939
01:49:56,200 --> 01:49:59,440
worship together to make sure
you're prepared and, and in a

1940
01:49:59,440 --> 01:50:02,560
spiritual place.
The wrote, even the wrote prayer

1941
01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:05,240
books, which I, again, I, I
also, I, I talked about those, I

1942
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:08,000
believe where, you know, there's
these wrote prayer books.

1943
01:50:08,000 --> 01:50:09,680
And I think there's something
kind of beautiful to some of

1944
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:10,840
those prayers.
And if you got a really

1945
01:50:10,840 --> 01:50:12,960
beautiful prayer, I don't think
there's anything wrong with

1946
01:50:12,960 --> 01:50:15,880
repeating it and really digging
deep into it again, because how

1947
01:50:15,880 --> 01:50:18,560
often do we pray and we're not
even paying attention to what

1948
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:20,120
we're saying or the person
praying.

1949
01:50:21,240 --> 01:50:23,840
But when you do the same prayer
again and again, it's creates an

1950
01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:27,400
opportunity to, to get in that
place of feeling that prayer

1951
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:32,280
and, and really experiencing it.
So anyway, yeah, that's what my

1952
01:50:32,320 --> 01:50:35,640
thoughts on.
Adam, you got any thoughts on

1953
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:38,160
that?
I mean, Justin hit it on the

1954
01:50:38,160 --> 01:50:42,040
head like I'm not very smart.
And so I only ever say things

1955
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:44,320
like this is true if it's in the
scriptures.

1956
01:50:44,760 --> 01:50:49,160
Otherwise I say, well, this is
what I think, but I'm very

1957
01:50:49,160 --> 01:50:53,240
careful to not be like, let me
tell you a statement of fact

1958
01:50:53,240 --> 01:50:56,080
when I know that, like that
ain't a statement of fact, bro.

1959
01:50:58,960 --> 01:51:02,960
Absolutely.
I, you know, I'm a fan of

1960
01:51:02,960 --> 01:51:04,640
ritual.
I really am, right?

1961
01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:09,920
I think that's why I, I
gravitate towards the temple so

1962
01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:13,040
much.
I think there's not just beauty

1963
01:51:13,040 --> 01:51:17,480
and ritual, but it's a very
solid way that you can make

1964
01:51:17,480 --> 01:51:22,360
connections with deity.
That said, there is like

1965
01:51:22,400 --> 01:51:26,680
official ritual and then there
might be ritual that you adopt

1966
01:51:26,840 --> 01:51:29,960
in your own home or in your own
family, right?

1967
01:51:29,960 --> 01:51:32,400
That I think can also be
beautiful, right?

1968
01:51:34,360 --> 01:51:39,640
I remember I went into to one
person's home and everyone just

1969
01:51:39,640 --> 01:51:41,080
prayed sitting down on the
couch.

1970
01:51:41,480 --> 01:51:43,480
Nothing wrong with that.
That's what you do.

1971
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:46,880
Went to another person's home
and everyone got on their knees

1972
01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:50,320
together.
Doubt for me was even more

1973
01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:51,520
beautiful.
That's what I've tried to

1974
01:51:51,520 --> 01:51:57,520
instill in my own family.
And so sometimes I think we look

1975
01:51:57,520 --> 01:52:03,440
at the rituals that are held
within church or the temple as

1976
01:52:04,760 --> 01:52:07,680
as the only ones, right?
I do believe in, in a

1977
01:52:07,680 --> 01:52:12,480
ritualistic preparation, right?
We, we certainly have scriptural

1978
01:52:12,480 --> 01:52:16,160
foundation for that, right?
If we look at what the priest

1979
01:52:16,160 --> 01:52:19,240
had to do before he entered the
temple, there was there, there

1980
01:52:19,240 --> 01:52:22,720
was some stuff he had to do.
And I think likewise, we need to

1981
01:52:22,720 --> 01:52:25,440
get to a point to where, you
know, maybe we're asking

1982
01:52:25,440 --> 01:52:27,400
ourselves, you know, because
it's easy.

1983
01:52:27,400 --> 01:52:30,040
Let's face it, I think we've all
been there, right?

1984
01:52:30,040 --> 01:52:33,000
You just go to church because
that's what you do.

1985
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:36,600
And I think that's even good,
right?

1986
01:52:36,600 --> 01:52:40,720
Because sometimes that's that's
part of that whole faking it

1987
01:52:40,720 --> 01:52:44,200
till you make it thing, right?
This is just what we do and we

1988
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:46,240
go through the motions.
But at some point, you got to go

1989
01:52:46,240 --> 01:52:49,000
deeper than that.
You're better not going.

1990
01:52:49,400 --> 01:52:52,480
Right, exactly.
And so I, I do think that

1991
01:52:52,480 --> 01:52:54,800
there's value in that in that
too.

1992
01:52:54,800 --> 01:52:57,520
But if we're trying to have that
relationship with deity that I

1993
01:52:57,520 --> 01:53:02,120
think quite frankly is promised
through Mormonism, right, we've

1994
01:53:02,120 --> 01:53:06,120
got to, we've got to dig a
little bit deeper and, and there

1995
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:11,040
takes some preparation for that.
You can't just just do what you

1996
01:53:11,040 --> 01:53:13,640
do and expect to get there.
I think there's got to be a lot

1997
01:53:13,640 --> 01:53:17,440
of work put into that kind of
preparation.

1998
01:53:18,040 --> 01:53:21,600
And, and I see nothing wrong
with with making it, you know,

1999
01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:26,160
kind of a personal ritual to get
prepared to go to the temple or

2000
01:53:26,160 --> 01:53:29,440
preparing to take the sacrament
and have a spiritual encounter

2001
01:53:29,440 --> 01:53:31,520
there.
But it's one of those things

2002
01:53:31,520 --> 01:53:36,880
that that I feel like we as, as
Mormons, definitely need to take

2003
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:40,680
a more active role in and, and
preparing ourselves for that or

2004
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:44,520
else we will be found wanting
something that that we're not

2005
01:53:44,520 --> 01:53:47,720
getting.
So all right, fellas, we've been

2006
01:53:47,720 --> 01:53:50,320
at this for just about two hours
now.

2007
01:53:53,120 --> 01:53:55,280
Adam, what, what do you want to
say in conclusion?

2008
01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:57,080
Or is there anything else you
want to go over?

2009
01:54:02,000 --> 01:54:09,400
I, I want to say that if there's
anything that I am any value

2010
01:54:09,400 --> 01:54:13,800
that I bring to the Mormon
world, it's, it's probably not

2011
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:16,800
all that much.
But one thing is that I come

2012
01:54:16,800 --> 01:54:18,960
from a generally non religious
background.

2013
01:54:18,960 --> 01:54:23,840
Like I have this Catholic stuff
in my head, but I was born and

2014
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:29,400
raised in that and I left when I
was 15 and for 20 years I had

2015
01:54:29,400 --> 01:54:32,800
nothing to do with it.
And so I spent more time as a

2016
01:54:32,800 --> 01:54:36,400
totally non religious, non
believer than I ever did as a

2017
01:54:36,400 --> 01:54:39,080
Catholic and certainly as an
understanding Catholic.

2018
01:54:39,880 --> 01:54:45,800
And I would say that there are
things that we do as

2019
01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:49,240
fundamentalist that we could do
a much better job of.

2020
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:55,360
And one of those things is
resistance to change because it

2021
01:54:55,360 --> 01:54:57,800
is not prescribed in the
scriptures.

2022
01:54:57,800 --> 01:55:01,440
Like to me, the scriptures give
us a baseline.

2023
01:55:02,000 --> 01:55:03,920
There's nowhere in the
scriptures that says this is all

2024
01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:08,080
you can do.
I certainly think it's blasphemy

2025
01:55:08,080 --> 01:55:11,400
and sacrilegious to take away
things that are in the

2026
01:55:11,400 --> 01:55:14,400
scriptures or to deny things
that are in the scriptures, or

2027
01:55:14,920 --> 01:55:21,120
to take away revealed ordinances
from the body of work that we

2028
01:55:21,120 --> 01:55:25,960
are here to do.
But adding something to it that

2029
01:55:25,960 --> 01:55:30,240
doesn't border on idolatry, that
doesn't border on blasphemy,

2030
01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:34,480
that doesn't border on any of
the other things that we should

2031
01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:40,040
very obviously avoid as
dedicated and devout Mormons,

2032
01:55:41,760 --> 01:55:47,880
adding something to it, I cannot
possibly see a way in which our

2033
01:55:47,880 --> 01:55:51,560
Heavenly Father would object to
us going for more and not less,

2034
01:55:51,840 --> 01:55:53,600
doing a better job and not a
worse job.

2035
01:55:54,360 --> 01:55:55,960
And we can we see this in our
daily lives.

2036
01:55:55,960 --> 01:56:00,200
Imagine that you call a guy to
do some cabinets at your house

2037
01:56:01,000 --> 01:56:03,520
and you say, yeah, here's the
quality and grade and style of

2038
01:56:03,520 --> 01:56:05,440
the cabinets that I want.
And then you find out that out

2039
01:56:05,440 --> 01:56:07,800
of the goodness of his heart, he
just did a better job.

2040
01:56:08,200 --> 01:56:12,760
You know, maybe he added a some
kind of detail of refinement or

2041
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:14,440
some kind of finish that you
didn't pay for.

2042
01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:17,880
But you're going to go, Nah,
sweet.

2043
01:56:17,880 --> 01:56:21,120
You're not going to be like,
these are too damn nice, man,

2044
01:56:21,120 --> 01:56:23,280
You suck.
You know, like, it's not how

2045
01:56:23,280 --> 01:56:28,280
that works.
And I think that as

2046
01:56:28,600 --> 01:56:31,080
fundamentalist, we could do a
much better job of acknowledging

2047
01:56:32,680 --> 01:56:35,040
that the scriptures gave us the
baseline.

2048
01:56:36,600 --> 01:56:40,240
We can add more to it and we can
imbue it, our rituals and our

2049
01:56:40,240 --> 01:56:43,880
meetings, etcetera, with more
meaning and with more value and

2050
01:56:43,880 --> 01:56:47,480
Orient ourselves more
specifically and intentionally

2051
01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:51,240
towards the Father and towards
the atoning sacrifice of Christ

2052
01:56:51,240 --> 01:56:52,680
and towards the plan of
salvation.

2053
01:56:54,240 --> 01:56:55,600
And there's nothing wrong with
that.

2054
01:56:56,400 --> 01:56:59,800
That's what I would say.
OK, so I I want to make sure I

2055
01:56:59,800 --> 01:57:03,200
understand correctly here your
in in your thought.

2056
01:57:03,200 --> 01:57:06,280
You you think, hey, we can get
more revelation on this.

2057
01:57:06,280 --> 01:57:09,760
When you say we you don't mean
we you mean him, right?

2058
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:15,040
Him capital H God revealing more
to us and we can strive for more

2059
01:57:15,440 --> 01:57:21,000
as long as it doesn't compromise
what's already been revealed is

2060
01:57:21,000 --> 01:57:25,160
that a fair assessment is a.
Much more succinct way of

2061
01:57:25,160 --> 01:57:26,920
putting that, yes.
OK, perfect.

2062
01:57:27,440 --> 01:57:29,040
Justin, what?
What do you want to say in

2063
01:57:29,040 --> 01:57:31,800
conclusion here?
Or bring up something else we

2064
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:35,360
didn't cover?
Yeah, I'd say I'd build on that

2065
01:57:35,360 --> 01:57:38,080
and say, you know what, even if
sometimes, even if we don't have

2066
01:57:38,120 --> 01:57:41,240
direct revelation for some of
these things, even I'd I'd even

2067
01:57:41,240 --> 01:57:43,280
make it a little even more
flexible and say there's there's

2068
01:57:43,280 --> 01:57:47,320
room for for exploration and a
trying things and seeing how

2069
01:57:47,320 --> 01:57:51,960
they work.
And because I think, like I

2070
01:57:51,960 --> 01:57:54,200
said, I think we're supposed to
learn God doesn't want us to

2071
01:57:54,200 --> 01:57:56,520
just obey in everything.
He wants us to figure stuff out

2072
01:57:56,520 --> 01:58:00,760
for ourselves in certain ways.
But building off of what Adams

2073
01:58:01,160 --> 01:58:03,600
said, I agree, I think we could
probably do, we can all do a lot

2074
01:58:03,600 --> 01:58:07,120
better.
But specifically to me, I think

2075
01:58:07,120 --> 01:58:12,080
that that the solution to that
better specifically is found and

2076
01:58:13,120 --> 01:58:15,560
we need to be we need to be
doing a lot more temple work.

2077
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:18,280
We need to spend a lot more time
in the temple doing ordinances

2078
01:58:18,280 --> 01:58:23,280
there.
That is one of the places where

2079
01:58:24,040 --> 01:58:27,160
by failing there, there's
ramifications and other aspects

2080
01:58:27,160 --> 01:58:29,280
of our worship and in our
services.

2081
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:32,600
And then the other one is in our
services, getting back to the

2082
01:58:32,600 --> 01:58:36,200
basics, getting back to
preaching the mouth of the

2083
01:58:36,200 --> 01:58:40,040
gospel and rejoicing in that and
loving that and enjoying that.

2084
01:58:40,840 --> 01:58:44,280
And so, you know, again,
scriptures, testimony, things

2085
01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:48,120
like that, things that that are
anybody, that things that are

2086
01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:51,240
accessible to everybody that can
bring a spirit and give people

2087
01:58:51,240 --> 01:58:57,320
an opportunity to, to be a
teacher and to share their

2088
01:58:57,320 --> 01:59:01,160
testimony and to uplift others.
And that's, that's what it's,

2089
01:59:01,280 --> 01:59:03,840
that's what the that's what the
meetings are supposed to be

2090
01:59:03,840 --> 01:59:07,440
about.
It's not about trying to trying

2091
01:59:07,440 --> 01:59:11,480
to, you know, innovate and be
the, you know, I've got a brand

2092
01:59:11,480 --> 01:59:13,440
new revelation.
I'm going to wow everybody with

2093
01:59:13,440 --> 01:59:15,880
how great I am.
It's we're all struggling with

2094
01:59:15,880 --> 01:59:17,680
different things at different
times in our lives.

2095
01:59:17,680 --> 01:59:21,240
And it's good to be reminded
even of the simple things.

2096
01:59:21,240 --> 01:59:24,600
It's really good to be reminded
often and frequently.

2097
01:59:24,680 --> 01:59:27,840
And so I agree, I think we can
do better.

2098
01:59:27,960 --> 01:59:31,120
And I think that that better is
going to be found in the temple.

2099
01:59:31,120 --> 01:59:35,320
And, and I think some more milk,
you know, can't all, you know,

2100
01:59:35,640 --> 01:59:38,160
it's all meat.
You know, it can get a little

2101
01:59:38,160 --> 01:59:42,600
indigestion.
So instead of trying to inside,

2102
01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:45,680
instead of trying to, to make
everything meet all the time,

2103
01:59:45,960 --> 01:59:47,960
there's great opportunities for
that here and there.

2104
01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:50,160
And I like, you know, like in a
priested meeting and having a

2105
01:59:50,240 --> 01:59:53,400
discussion with people with
different ideas, that's a great

2106
01:59:53,400 --> 01:59:55,000
opportunity for the for the
meet.

2107
01:59:55,000 --> 01:59:59,560
But the milk we all need, we all
need milk all the time as well.

2108
01:59:59,560 --> 02:00:02,240
We don't evolve past that.
We're not better than that as

2109
02:00:02,240 --> 02:00:03,840
fundamentalists, we're that we
don't need that.

2110
02:00:03,840 --> 02:00:06,560
At the very least our children
need that, right?

2111
02:00:07,280 --> 02:00:09,680
And so.
I think we can do a lot better

2112
02:00:09,680 --> 02:00:12,680
job of inviting the Spirit into
our meetings through having

2113
02:00:12,680 --> 02:00:16,240
regular accessible temple
worship and and bringing back

2114
02:00:16,240 --> 02:00:19,320
the milk and focusing on
testimonies and scriptures.

2115
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:25,160
Absolutely, absolutely.
And and look, in my estimation,

2116
02:00:25,160 --> 02:00:28,200
fundamentalism is only going to
continue to grow, right.

2117
02:00:28,520 --> 02:00:31,120
Based on the emails, I see
everything else.

2118
02:00:31,760 --> 02:00:34,600
And I think we do have to be
open that, you know what, not

2119
02:00:34,600 --> 02:00:36,320
all meetings are going to look
similar.

2120
02:00:36,560 --> 02:00:39,840
And that's OK, right?
That's a good thing.

2121
02:00:39,840 --> 02:00:44,680
And and I am also a believer in
what Washington said about, you

2122
02:00:44,680 --> 02:00:47,440
know, kind of meeting on the
beat battlefield of ideas.

2123
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:49,760
There's going to be things that
you're going to encounter that

2124
02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:52,880
you're like, you know what,
that's just a little too far for

2125
02:00:52,880 --> 02:00:54,400
me.
And that's OK, right?

2126
02:00:54,400 --> 02:00:57,520
Because chances are you'll
gravitate towards somewhere else

2127
02:00:57,520 --> 02:00:59,280
that does kind of meet those
needs.

2128
02:01:00,800 --> 02:01:03,160
But that doesn't mean that
there's not beauty or truth

2129
02:01:03,160 --> 02:01:05,200
there to be found.
And I think we do need to be

2130
02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:09,800
open that as fundamentalism does
continue to grow, we need to be

2131
02:01:09,800 --> 02:01:13,360
open to what other people have
to bring to the table on this.

2132
02:01:14,200 --> 02:01:18,200
Look, Zion, as far as I can
tell, it's a big, big tent.

2133
02:01:18,960 --> 02:01:22,280
And Brigham and Joseph were both
clear.

2134
02:01:22,680 --> 02:01:26,000
There's going to be a lot of
people in Zion that you're going

2135
02:01:26,000 --> 02:01:28,520
to be surprised to see there,
right?

2136
02:01:28,520 --> 02:01:30,280
Even people of different
religions.

2137
02:01:30,280 --> 02:01:33,640
And we have to be willing to to
get along with those folks and,

2138
02:01:33,640 --> 02:01:37,840
and to not just get along with
them, but incorporate what it is

2139
02:01:37,840 --> 02:01:41,800
they do right, And then be
willing also to share with them

2140
02:01:41,800 --> 02:01:45,680
what what we think we do right.
There's no reason we can't do

2141
02:01:45,680 --> 02:01:47,720
that, I think.
And and I think it will, will

2142
02:01:47,720 --> 02:01:50,320
just make all parties involved
so much better.

2143
02:01:51,040 --> 02:01:55,640
So, all right, gentlemen, thank
you so much for jumping on.

2144
02:01:56,760 --> 02:01:58,760
Love both of you guys to death.
I really do.

2145
02:01:59,680 --> 02:02:03,800
It was a good conversation and
thanks for being bold enough to

2146
02:02:03,800 --> 02:02:04,800
talk about it.
Right.

2147
02:02:05,400 --> 02:02:08,680
And I I just want to re
emphasize again, this isn't a

2148
02:02:08,680 --> 02:02:12,280
criticism level that anybody if
what you're doing is working for

2149
02:02:12,280 --> 02:02:17,200
you, fantastic.
Just, you know, keep your eyes

2150
02:02:17,200 --> 02:02:18,560
out.
There could be more beauty and

2151
02:02:18,560 --> 02:02:21,440
more truth to be found to be
gathered into your circle.

2152
02:02:21,520 --> 02:02:24,480
So, all right, gentlemen, I
appreciate it.

2153
02:02:26,120 --> 02:02:29,200
Thank you Sir, it's been fun and
I wouldn't say that I'm bold

2154
02:02:29,200 --> 02:02:31,600
enough to say any of this stuff.
I'm probably just dumb enough to

2155
02:02:31,600 --> 02:02:34,240
say it, that's all.
Dude, that's what this podcast

2156
02:02:34,240 --> 02:02:36,480
is about.
Is a guy dumb enough to talk

2157
02:02:36,480 --> 02:02:38,840
about really uncomfortable
things from time to time.

2158
02:02:39,240 --> 02:02:41,320
So here we are.
Here we are.

2159
02:02:41,680 --> 02:02:43,760
So awesome.
All right, gentlemen, have a

2160
02:02:43,760 --> 02:02:45,720
good night.
Thanks you too.

2161
02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:19,520
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.