Episode #159: The Great Omission Part 2 W/Taylor Smith

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This week on the podcast, Taylor
Smith and I finish our

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conversation about the book The
Great Omission, which was

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written by a sectarian Christian
advocating for plural marriage.

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And boy oh boy, do we cover a
lot of ground in our

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conversation.
We talk about how and why

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monogamy became the norm in
Christianity, plural marriage

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and early Protestantism,
population collapse and the role

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it played in the Ukrainian
Russian war and it becoming a

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problem here in the West, The
definition of patriarchy and

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what it really is, the omission
of plural marriage in the King

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James Version of the Bible, the
implications for living plural

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marriage today, and much, much
more.

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Stick around for a fascinating
conversation on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
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notes and get yours today.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
We're back, dude.

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Yeah, been a while not.
Really.

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Yeah.
Yeah, Not really, but yeah, no,

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Too long.
Too long, Yeah.

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So where'd we where'd we leave
off last time?

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Do you remember?
Yeah, so we've been discussing

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the Great Omission by Clyde
Pilkington and it's basically a

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non Mormon's biblical defense
for polygamy.

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And and he uses kind of rational
arguments and just talking about

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the New Testament and how
basically the translational

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decisions that were made, I
believe intentionally kind of

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obfuscate the, you know, cloud
the proper understanding and

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interpretation of a lot of these
things.

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So next, I think we're going to
talk about the just moving along

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into chapter 6, the religious
systems destruction of the

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biblical family.
We kind of we kind of

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foreshadowed a little bit on of
that.

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Is there anything that you want
to maybe recap or or?

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Yeah, I do.
You remember the part that we

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talked about where you talked
about the Jews ran into this

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problem when when the the edict
came down about.

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Rabbi Gershom.
Yeah.

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Can we can we go over that again
and and get what the solution

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was 'cause that was kind of
gurgly in that first episode, so

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I kind of had to splice it out
of there.

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So maybe, maybe we can.
We can.

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Recap that.
Yeah, you bet.

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So that comes from an article
ontime.com/datanomics.

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It, it analyzes 2 kind of
religiously very conservative

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communities, Hasidic Judaism and
the LDS Church.

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And it looks at how they both
have this basically dating

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crisis of, of where there are
too many women and not enough

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men to provide spouses for, for
these, for, for the marriages.

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And so basically the, the
Mormons have handled it well,

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quote UN quote, handled it by
basically glorifying

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spinsterhood and just saying,
hey, you can still contribute to

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the to the work of God, the
church, the Kingdom, if you are

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single and and it's OK to just
basically be single in eternity.

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And the challenge with that is
of course that, yeah, that may

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be, there may be truth to that.
Like, yeah, I'm not saying that

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you have to be married to be
able to contribute to God's

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Kingdom and, and his work and
all that stuff, but marriage is

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an integral part of the of the
plan.

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And you know, certainly you
can't be exalted without

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marriage.
And the other thing is that

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people that just sincerely
desire to be mothers and wives

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are being deprived through no
fault of their own.

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And and so that's been the LDS
kind of solution, quote UN

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quote.
But the Hasidic Jews are kind of

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unique because they're also a
very religiously conservative.

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And by conservative, I'm not
just talking about like

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political or whatnot.
I'm talking, you know, they have

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they, they value large families,
They value family and being

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married and having a lot of
children.

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And they also have, I guess,
lack of a better word, they,

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they just desire to marry within
the group there.

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I think there's a term for that.
I'm just blanking on it.

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But like, they, they want
people, they want Hasidic Jews

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to marry other Hasidic Jews
that, you know, marry.

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They don't want to marry outside
of the covenant, so to speak.

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And so, and so the way that
they've handled it is

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matchmakers.
And I actually wrote a blog

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post.
So the guy, how much of this did

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you end up having to cut out?
Do you want to kind of go over

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everything that we covered last
time around or?

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No, just basically how the Jews
fixed it, right?

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Because.
Because I found that kind of

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fascinating, but it was
something that couldn't

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translate real well.
Gotcha.

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So, so basically the way that
they chose to handle it in and

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in that way is they have
matchmakers and the matchmakers

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tell, you know, arrange the
marriages.

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And so, you know, let's say
you're a 22 year old young lady

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who desires to be married and
there's a 26 year old young man

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who desires to be married.
They ship, they generally won't

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pair people of a different age
with each other because in a, in

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a conservative close group that
marries amongst themselves and

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not outside of the group, it's
very rare or I don't even know

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if it's rare.
It's just basically it's, it's

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inevitable that there will be
women.

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There's, there's going to be a
positive birth rate.

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So there will be more, you know,
10 year olds than 20 year olds,

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more 20 year olds than 30 year
olds as the birth rate is

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positive.
If you're valuing families and

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if you're supposed to marry
within the group, when you allow

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free choices to be made, then
just biologically more women

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choose men on average about four
years older than them and meant

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on average tend to select as
marriage partners women that are

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four years younger.
And that's kind of obvious for

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natural, just biological
reasons.

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Younger women are going to be
more likely to be able to bear

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healthy children.
Older men are going to be more

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likely to be able to take care
of a woman and protect a family.

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And so those are just kind of
the natural reactions.

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But, but if you're trying to
control this and you, you have a

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positive birth rate and you have
this kind of inevitable

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situation where there are there,
if you allow free marriage

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choices to be made, there will
be a surplus of women who just

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kind of miss out.
And, you know, and because let's

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be honest, not all men, there
are fewer men who desire

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marriage and the
responsibilities of life than

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women, right?
And so and so there's just a

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leftover surplus of women who
are deprived if in a, in a

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forced monogamy situation.
So, so basically that's, that's

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it.
The Hasidic Jews, they took away

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the choice.
You know marriage decisions are

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by arrangement rather than by
choice for Hasidic Jews.

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Which?
Yeah, yeah.

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And it's different from marriage
in the, you know, the, in the,

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in the sense that Mormons would
use that.

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So I'm, I'm not saying it's
necessary.

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It's, it's working for them.
You know, they still have

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families and they have
successful marriages.

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Their divorce rates are not even
anything close to what the, you

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know, the rest of even Mormons
divorce rates are So, so it's,

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it's working for them, but it
takes away agency, which whose

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plan is that, right?
That's just not ideal, but it is

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what it is, so.
You know, and the birth rate is

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like, OK, I won't, I don't make
many predictions on, on this

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sort of thing, but I'll, I'll
make one here.

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Not a prophecy, just a
prediction.

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You, you know, more like a Vegas
style prediction than a than

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than than anything like
property.

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Yeah, just a good guess.
I think within the next four to

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five years, we're going to start
encountering a crisis about our,

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you know, population collapse.
There was a fascinating article

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that came out about Russia and
its incursion into Ukraine, and

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there's a lot of people now
saying that that was about

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population, that Russia has been
in a negative replacement rate

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for population and one of the
ways that the Russian government

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thought that they could fix
this.

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I'm not saying this is the only
reason this they invaded, but it

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was one that was somewhat under
the radar that was discussed.

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They could go in and annex those
other parts of Russia that they

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deemed ethnically Russian and
then that would bolster their

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their population.
What they didn't count on was

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the war taking this long.
And so now they're even if they

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even if they walk away with
those other provinces, they're

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still going to be worse now than
they were before they invaded

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because they've lost so many men
in war, right?

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Elon Musk has come out and said,
and you know, Elon's not a

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classical conservative guy,
right?

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Very big on the free market,
that sort of thing.

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But he's come out and said,
yeah, we better start having as

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many kids as we can because the
replacement rate in the United

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States is getting low.
So I would think within about

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four or five years, you're going
to see this creep into the

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States.
It's a trend in all of the West,

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not just America or Russia.
It's a trend that is going those

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bigger socialist countries,
they'll feel it first because

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they rely on the replacement
rate to fund the program.

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So everything's funded from the
past into the future and they'll

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you'll start seeing those,
those.

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That includes the.
US.

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Yep, that.
Includes the US Yep because

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Social Security funds it the
same way right and and that will

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become an issue in the coming in
the coming years I think yeah so

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mark that down write that down I
could be wrong but that's that's

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where I'm going with it so
anyway awesome so OK let's let's

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pick up where we left off then
there.

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All right, perfect.
So, so moving on into chapter 6,

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this is there's a book called
The Mothers by a guy named

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Robert Briffault.
Early Christian moralists who

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accounted marriage as a
necessary evil favored monogamy

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as a reduction of that evil to a
minimum.

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See.
So this is driven by celibacy

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and Roman stuff.
So there's a guy concerning the

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historical perspective,
Professor John Karen Cross

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wrote.
Not only is there nothing in the

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Bible contrary to polygamy, in
early Christian times it was

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common.
Even Charlemagne had several

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lives.
Gradually, priest craft became

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more and more powerful.
The Church imposed not only

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monogamy, monogamy, but the
celibacy of the priests, and

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also church control of marriage.
In 1532, Charles the Fifth made

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polygamy a capital offense, and
the Council of Trent ratified

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the condemnation of the
practice.

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And yet whoremongers and
adulterers go Scott free.

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How wickedly unjust.
Can can we explore that for just

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a second?
So I I want to know why it is

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that the Roman system was so
antithetical to plural marriage.

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00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,600
Rome was a lot.
Ancient Rome was a lot like

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modern America.
OK.

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It's, it's basically it's, it's,
you know, late Republic nonsense

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00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,480
is a term that a guy named Steve
Days kind of uses to describe

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00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,200
this phenomenon.
And, and it's basically it's a

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situation where in late in a
Republic, all republics have an

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expiration date essentially.
And late in a republic's

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00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:12,360
history, the devolves into
decadence.

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00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,480
It devolves into, you know,
hedonism and secularism and and

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the IT loses that moral
foundation that that made the

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Republic possible and strong,
you know, and this is something

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that was basically prophesied by
our own American founders.

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00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,760
John, was it John Adams, I
believe, that said this is or

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00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,560
Benjamin Franklin, I think is
attributed when they were

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00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,840
walking out and some lady at
least said, Mr. Franklin, what

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00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,400
kind of government have you
given us?

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00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,880
And he says a Republic, Madam,
if you can keep it so.

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00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,080
Yeah.
Benjamin Franklin, he understood

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00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,680
the American founders understood
that a Republic, to survive a

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00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,080
Republic must have a moral and
virtuous people.

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And, and so that's, that's kind
of the price of admission if you

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00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,320
want a Republic.
And we know what happens when

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00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,280
you lose that moral and virtuous
foundation of, of the people,

238
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,400
you cease to be a republican,
you become an empire.

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00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,960
And so that was the Roman
history was it basically became

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00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,600
an empire.
And you know, because early

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00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,760
Rome, Roman history with the
Roman Republic, late Roman

242
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,480
history is the Roman Empire,
which later became absorbed into

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00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:32,040
basically a theocracy with the
Catholic Church being the, the

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00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,320
actual de facto rule.
I mean, there were a lot, of

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00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,080
course there were all these
European monarchs, but they all

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00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,960
were held sway by the Pope and
the Catholic infrastructure.

247
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,000
And so the Church was dictating
policy, even though the monarchs

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00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,680
technically wielded the
political.

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00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,080
Power.
Gotcha.

250
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:55,120
OK, All right, that makes sense.
I was just curious why, why it

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00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,640
was the Roman influence that was
so that that carried such a

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00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,160
heavy stick in this idea of of
chastity.

253
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,560
I shouldn't even say chastity.
That's not the right word.

254
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:11,000
But celibacy, yeah, yeah.
And and whatnot.

255
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,440
But I think that kind of answers
the question there.

256
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:15,320
So.
All right.

257
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,840
So, yeah, the, the Roman Empire
has sway on on the early church

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00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:25,120
and that's when celibacy starts
being the, I won't say the

259
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,200
standard, but the the ideal.
And then marriage.

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00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,640
Monogamy is the next best thing.
Yep.

261
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,240
So I'm going to read another
excerpt from James Campbell in

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00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,320
1869.
He says I have demonstrated that

263
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,400
monogamy is not commanded in the
Bible and that it is not the

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00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,680
doctrine of Christianity.
I shall now account for its

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00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,640
origin by proving that it is the
joint offspring of paganism and

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00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,320
Romanism.
The social system of European

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00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,520
monogamy is proved to be derived
from the ancient Greeks and

268
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,600
Romans, especially the latter,
by the early histories of the

269
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,680
nations of Europe, and by an
uninterrupted descent of

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00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,440
traditional customs from them to
our own times.

271
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,280
It is one of those Pagan
abominations which we have

272
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,599
inherited, which the Roman
Church has sanctioned and

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00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,119
confirmed, and from which we
find it so difficult to

274
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,720
emancipate ourselves.
Take monogamy as it is today in

275
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,640
Protestant countries, and we see
that the old Roman 11 is still

276
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,680
in it.
Christianity has not reformed

277
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,720
and purified that system so much
as that system has corrupted

278
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,640
Christianity.
Most of us in these countries

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00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,240
are accustomed to congratulate
ourselves upon our happy escape

280
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,720
from the bondage and the bigotry
of the Papal Church.

281
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,040
Yet we are mistaken.
We've not escaped.

282
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,560
Rome binds us in stronger
shackles than the iron chains of

283
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,160
the Holy Inquisition.
Her shackles are upon our

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00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,480
consciences.
They are intertwined with every

285
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,560
fiber of our social life.
Who?

286
00:17:52,840 --> 00:18:00,200
This was written in 1869.
Whoa, that it's a it's kind of

287
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,120
interesting that they that.
Who was that again that said

288
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,600
that?
James Campbell, we read.

289
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,640
He had some.
OK, he had some other stuff.

290
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,560
Conversation.
Yeah, it's interesting that that

291
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:18,080
he sees that as an issue that
early, right.

292
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,280
And that, that they're still
operating under that Roman

293
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:26,000
system, right.
Wow.

294
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,640
Yeah.
And total the, the, the thing

295
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,200
that, that I find most
interesting that goes along with

296
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:39,000
this is that from the early days
of Protestantism, there was some

297
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,120
flirting with plural marriage,
right?

298
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:45,960
I know Martin Luther solemnized
a plural union, right, 'cause he

299
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,160
looked at the Bible and said, I
can't find anything wrong in

300
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,480
here with it.
It doesn't prohibit it anywhere.

301
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,880
So I think it's valid, right?
And so I find that very

302
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,120
fascinating that it seems like
early on they're looking at this

303
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:06,240
and, and at least the founder of
Protestantism, Martin Luther,

304
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,240
was like, I don't see any issues
with this, but yet it seems to

305
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,720
revert back to monogamy as the
movement continues.

306
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,600
Yes, Yep.
And so let's let's also back up

307
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,680
to another really starting point
for this.

308
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:27,160
How, how did this become so
entrenched in modern Christian

309
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,240
Protestant Christianity?
I mean, we can see how Rome, you

310
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,560
know, they hid the scriptures
from the people and so nobody

311
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,800
could actually study.
But, but Protestants, they

312
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,760
claimed, I mean, Protestantism
is based on the, this concept of

313
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,520
Sola scriptura that you don't
need a priest, you don't need

314
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,480
priesthood.
You just need scripture and, and

315
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:50,000
a man and his Bible can get
closer to God than, you know,

316
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,120
anything else, like a, a, a
priest or an intercessor.

317
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,800
And there is truth to that, But
it but it's also, it also leads

318
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:04,040
to idolatry of the scriptures.
And and and, and so let's let's

319
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:08,480
dive back into this.
Are you familiar with the term

320
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,520
Gnosticism Starts with AG.
Yeah, yeah.

321
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,040
That's that's where the idea of
sacred knowledge is the saving

322
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,000
mechanism.
But not only that, yes.

323
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,240
So like esotericism and stuff
like that, but not only that,

324
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,920
Gnosticism was a tradition.
It was like basically a

325
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,760
philosophy of men mingled with
some scripture.

326
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,040
You might say BYU and it, I
don't know.

327
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:37,520
Well, so, but Gnosticism,
ancient Gnosticism basically

328
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,400
viewed that everything physical
was evil.

329
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,400
OK.
OK, the body was, you know, is

330
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,840
fallen and, and, and sinful and
wicked and evil.

331
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,640
And so taken to that logical
conclusion, marriage, which is

332
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,120
the union of, of a man and
woman's bodies is at best a

333
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,280
necessary evil.
Cause of course, if nobody

334
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,960
married and nobody joined their
bodies, then there would be no

335
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,680
children and we'd all die off in
a generation.

336
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,520
But so the ideal upheld in
Gnosticism and so they, they tie

337
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,400
righteousness to how celibate
are you?

338
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,720
And so it, it enshrines
celibacy.

339
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,680
And particularly this is what
initially led to the Catholic

340
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,920
practice of celibate priests.
And, and so like the priesthood

341
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:32,680
at least even if even if the the
low ranking members are carnal,

342
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:37,080
meaning that they are married
and have children like that, at

343
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,440
least the priesthood was going
to be celibate.

344
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,680
And those, the origins of those
types of teachings within

345
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,720
Catholicism which later
certainly influence

346
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,920
Protestantism actually
originated with Gnosticism,

347
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,120
which is a Roman philosophy of
men.

348
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:59,400
So in, in at some points in
Christendom's history, marriage

349
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,200
was barely tolerated and those
married who were most

350
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,560
spiritually minded strove for
abstinence within marriage.

351
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,080
So obviously with celibacy and
abstinence, given such grand

352
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,720
spiritual ground, polygamy was
an excess of evil not to be

353
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,480
tolerated.
Who?

354
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:23,240
So this is from a book called
Attitudes to the Body in Western

355
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,760
Christendom by a guy written by
an author, Frank Bottomley.

356
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,440
He says early in the church's
life a conflict arose about the

357
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,800
nature of evil that wasn't
resolved until the end of the

358
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,520
4th century.
The mainline Christians accepted

359
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,080
the Old Testament of Scripture
and believed that the God

360
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,920
revealed there was ultimate
spiritual reality.

361
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,200
Along with the Hebrews, they
believed that the physical world

362
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,840
was an expression of the divine,
the direct creation of God, and

363
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,160
therefore good.
The Gnostic attitude toward

364
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,520
creation, on the other hand,
sprang out of Persian thinking

365
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,200
that saw 2 equal and opposite
divine creative forces, the

366
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,720
light and the dark.
In the Persian view, both the

367
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,560
light and the dark were present
in the spiritual world and in

368
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,480
nature.
The main purpose of human

369
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,440
morality and religion was to
support the forces of light and

370
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,240
so enable them to conquer
darkness and bring salvation to

371
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,680
the universe.
Ultimately, however, a

372
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,440
perversion of this Persian
viewpoint developed and became a

373
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,360
seductive Christian heresy.
The dark force became equated

374
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:25,520
with physical matter, the
physicality, and with the God of

375
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,600
the Old Testament, while the
light force became equated with

376
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,640
spirit, spirituality,
asceticism, and Jesus Christ.

377
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:37,360
In Gnosticism, matter was seen
as ugly, irredeemable, and evil.

378
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,320
The creation of human beings, in
this point of view was an

379
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,840
imprisoning of pure and Holy
Spirit in vile matter.

380
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,720
If we believe that spiritual
reality is a realm of bliss,

381
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,000
harmony and ecstasy, what the
agnostics called Laroma, then

382
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,480
the mingling of spirit and
matter becomes a cosmic

383
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,480
catastrophe rather than
purposeful, orderly, and good.

384
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,160
So in other words, they're
denying this duality of, of

385
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,720
mankind because we, you know,
Mormonism teaches that we are

386
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,280
basically spiritual beings
having a physical temporal

387
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,240
existence there.
And this Gnostic tradition

388
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,160
throws that completely out the
window and says, no, we are we

389
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:22,400
are are imprisoned in these
physical bodies and we need to

390
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,240
do anything necessary to free
ourselves, free our spirits from

391
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,320
this prison.
And, and so asceticism and like

392
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,520
depriving ourselves and, and
shirking all forms of pleasure

393
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:40,000
and joy and happiness like this
is the that's Gnosticism and the

394
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,880
so gradually the idea developed
when within early Christian

395
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,640
Christianity, specifically the
Gnostic influences that anything

396
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,640
to do with conception or
copulation or sexuality or

397
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,560
genital organs was evil or ugly.
Saint Augustine was a friend,

398
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,000
member of the Manichean sect for
nine years, and although he

399
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,080
eventually disengaged himself
intellectually, he never fully

400
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,040
disengaged himself emotionally.
His book, The Good of Marriage

401
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,880
has some passages on marriage
that are, well, not

402
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,040
unbelievable.
Even normal intercourse within

403
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,480
marriage can be a venial sin.
The quicker married people

404
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,120
abstain from all relations, the
better for their souls,

405
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:21,680
according to Augustine, One of
the early, you know, Christian

406
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,800
fathers.
Not only that, there's another

407
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:30,480
guy trying to remember his name.
There was another of the early

408
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,360
Christian fathers who bought so
much into this, this idea, this

409
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:38,000
philosophy that he castrated
himself.

410
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,600
Do you remember?
Do you happen to remember off

411
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,760
the hand?
I'm just going to Google that

412
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,120
I'm I'm just.
Dude, I may, I may have read it.

413
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,480
That may be one of those things
that I really wanted to forget,

414
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:57,280
but it it's interesting that I I
just can't help but compare and

415
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,680
contrast right?
You have this one ideology that

416
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,920
is really.
Origin.

417
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,520
Origin, OK.
Origin.

418
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,680
OK, it's interesting that you
have one ideology that is

419
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,240
prominent, quite frankly, until
the restoration that your

420
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,720
humanity is by its very nature
unholy, right?

421
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,080
That it prevents you from seeing
God.

422
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:26,120
The Joseph Smith message that he
receives from, from God, right?

423
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:27,880
I'm I'm not just saying it's
his.

424
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,880
We believe he restored restored
this through through divine

425
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:42,600
means is that your humanity does
not have to be doesn't have to

426
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,200
be the reason that you can't see
God.

427
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:52,320
In fact, your humanity is
required to to get to where you

428
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,000
want to go.
And that's a a radical departure

429
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,680
from what what it had been.
But you can see the almost like

430
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,800
the seeds of human destruction
sewn into some of this early

431
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,960
doctrine that that these early
Christians were espousing.

432
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,320
Yeah.
So, yeah, I mean, clearly, it

433
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:19,400
didn't take long for the early
church to lose its way.

434
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,600
You know, Origin himself made
himself a eunuch.

435
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,320
And then in the 12th, so later
on, hope.

436
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,320
Gregory the Great issues an
edict who says that married

437
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,120
people cannot receive communion
after intercourse unless they

438
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:39,840
had first done penance.
Later writers, including the

439
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,760
standard Catholic theological
authors of the 12th century,

440
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,320
argued that passion actually
transmitted original sin by

441
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,680
corrupting the seed with its
heat.

442
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:56,720
So if you're actually passionate
with your wife, the claim is

443
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,800
that that corrupts your seed and
so the offspring are like

444
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,840
hellish chimps instead of
children of God.

445
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:08,400
Holy.
Cow.

446
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:13,560
So going on, Speaking of the
attitude toward marital sex

447
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,320
regarding the obligation of
Catholics at the 4th Lateran

448
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,840
Council, this isn't 12:15.
A guy named Gardelia states that

449
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,760
quote sexual pleasure.
Pleasure with one spouse

450
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,640
remained a venial sin.
Venial sin did not destroy the

451
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,960
saving work of God's grace in
the soul as mortal sin would,

452
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,560
but taking pleasure even in
married relations weakened and

453
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,880
stained the soul, and so
required that the Sinner do

454
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,200
penance on earth or after death.
Pope Gregory the Great had

455
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,680
forbidden this during this
forbidden relations during

456
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,600
nursing, lest the milk be
spoiled or contaminated.

457
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:54,160
Holy cow.
So in so the the conclusion

458
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,080
here, enforced monogamy was the
doctrinal invention of Roman

459
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,360
Catholicism.
Wow.

460
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,400
And in 1563, the Council of
Trent.

461
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,640
So I mean, here's the thing, we,
we can be grateful for our

462
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,480
Christian heritage as like these
councils, they were trying, I

463
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,560
think very sincerely to do what
was right, to try to give

464
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,040
guidance and, and establish the
correct principles to govern a

465
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,200
church.
But they had they, they had some

466
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,280
real misses as along the way as
well.

467
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,960
So 1563, the Council of Trent
reclarified the Catholic

468
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,440
position by declaring anyone who
held polygamy to be lawful, to

469
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,880
be anathema.
And anathema is just, like, a

470
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,080
really strong word for you're
just as evil as it gets.

471
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:46,440
You're just, you know,
irritable.

472
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:52,960
Essentially, religion is the
source of bigamy laws.

473
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,680
So Samuel Chapman is an author.
He wrote polygamy, bigamy and

474
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,280
human rights law.
And in the book he wrote, he

475
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,880
says the roots of bigamy laws
extend deep into the past and

476
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,960
are as much entwined with
established religious

477
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,400
organizations as they are with
social or democratic concerns.

478
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,600
Polygamy is recorded in the
Bible as a practice of the

479
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,760
patriarchs and kings, and the
text speaks of the relationship

480
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,560
between God and Israel, and
later between Christ and the

481
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,480
Church.
In polygamous terms.

482
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,440
Polygamy itself escapes any form
of Scripture condemnation and

483
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,320
instead appears to attract
support.

484
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,240
After the Bible was completed,
as one church or another became

485
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,560
established as rival authorities
in law, and as the Roman Church

486
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,560
itself married the empire,
condemnations of polygamous

487
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,240
behavior began to become more
common.

488
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,520
Bigamy has been a criminal
offence in England and Wales

489
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,520
since 16 O 4, when the first
Parliament of James the First

490
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,720
took action ensuring that anyone
found guilty would receive a

491
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,120
sentence of death.
Remember what we were talking

492
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,760
about, translators?
So in in the Acts of King James

493
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:59,160
in 16 O 4, this is the guy that
commissioned the King James

494
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:00,600
version of the Bible.
Right.

495
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,320
Just this Like any translation
of the Bible, the King James

496
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,480
Version finds it impossible to
conceal the polygamy of the

497
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,040
patriarchs.
But some of the polygamous

498
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,120
references in the New Testament
are rendered with sufficient

499
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,000
ambiguity to let the reader pass
on without noticing their

500
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:23,480
polygamous content.
Wow, may I get one?

501
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,320
You get into biblical history
and it's not cut and dry, right?

502
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,840
We have this idea that that the
Canon of Scripture that we have

503
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,520
the King, the King James
Version, anyway, I should say,

504
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,080
comes down in a pristine line,
you know, with some scribes that

505
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,800
screw some stuff up, maybe some
evil men who wanted to for

506
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,760
power, and it's just clean,
right?

507
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,760
Other than that, that's not the
case whatsoever whatsoever.

508
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,640
And the King James Bible, we
have seen where, where there's

509
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,480
issues there, right?
I'm, I don't want to throw it

510
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,200
all under the bus.
That's not what I'm saying.

511
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,440
I believe it's a valid form of
scripture, obviously right?

512
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,960
But.
Honestly, it's it's my favorite

513
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,960
because it has the the old
Shakespearean, which I think is

514
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,360
the most beautiful form of the
English language.

515
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,520
So absolutely.
But yeah, obviously it has to be

516
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,720
translated correctly, as in with
integrity and not with all of

517
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,000
these biases and other issues
otherwise.

518
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,280
You know, it's interesting that
most of the founders of the

519
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,520
country didn't use the King
James Version.

520
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,320
They either used, I can never
remember this.

521
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,400
I think it's the Geneva Bible.
It might be Gutenberg, but I'm

522
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:39,000
about 85% or 90% sure that it's
it's the Geneva Bible.

523
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,040
And the Geneva Bible was really
hard on kings.

524
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:48,720
I mean, did not like kings.
And so it's interesting that as

525
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,480
as you look at at biblical
literature and biblical history,

526
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,200
there seems to be a few
different flavors out there of

527
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,800
essentially the same text,
right, Depending on how the

528
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,960
translation goes.
But it it that's that's super

529
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,840
interesting that the first guy
who translates the Bible into

530
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,840
English also has an edict to
kill all polygamists.

531
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,840
Yeah, it's nuts.
Yeah.

532
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,360
So obviously, and this is back
to the author, obviously, if one

533
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,200
starts their view suspecting
marriage to be tainted or evil,

534
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,840
it will follow that polygamy is
therefore very tainted or evil.

535
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,480
Whereas if one starts their view
acknowledging marriage is a

536
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,280
loving and gracious gift from
God, it will then follow that

537
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:38,080
polygamy is an added blessing.
Polygamy is not an issue of sin,

538
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,280
it's a religious issue forced
upon society.

539
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,280
It's rejection is rooted in the
viewing of the human body as

540
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,480
evil, ultimately calling all
marriage into question as evil,

541
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:51,360
but especially it's morality.
So in Christendom's historic

542
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,880
Gnostic influenced view,
physical world is evil, physical

543
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,360
body is evil, marriage is a
necessary evil, Polygamy is an

544
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,400
ultimate evil.
Whereas scripture, and we're not

545
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,240
talking about Mormon scripture,
we're talking strictly biblical

546
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,960
scripture.
In In the Bible's divine view,

547
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,520
the physical world is good, the
physical body is good, marriage

548
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,320
is good, and polygamy is
therefore an ultimate good.

549
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:22,000
Yeah, it it really did turn that
that completely upside down did

550
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,480
a 180.
Yeah, so it's religion that has

551
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,159
destroyed the biblical family
and left multitudes of women in

552
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:31,400
forced celibacy, not being able
to fulfill their divinely given

553
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,080
roles of wife and mother.
Now seriously, who are the ones

554
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,360
really being immoral?
What a shameful disgrace.

555
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,239
Proverbs 1822.
Who?

556
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,320
Whoso finds a wife finds a good
thing, it obtains favor of the

557
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,400
Lord.
The principle of plural marriage

558
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,800
finds its dark side not in God
of the Scriptures, but in

559
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,480
Christendom's Gnostic deception.
Marriage is honorable in all

560
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,360
Hebrews 13 four.
So he kind of, he repeats these

561
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,480
scriptures at the end of
chapters, but I think they're

562
00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:59,880
worth repeating.
Absolutely.

563
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,640
So now let's let's let's move
ahead in church history into the

564
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,320
Reformation.
Got you.

565
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,120
OK, So the early reformers, some
of the early reformers dealt

566
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,240
with the issue like you were
saying, Martin Luther of plural

567
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:14,840
marriages.
In fact, the three leading

568
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,560
figures of the German
Reformation, Martin Luther,

569
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,920
Langfan and Buser, signed the
Wittenberg deliberation, which

570
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,400
was mostly taken up with an
examination of the biblical

571
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,360
authority for a man having
multiple marriages.

572
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,440
They jointly gave their public
blessing to Philip the

573
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,160
Magnanimous of Hesse to marry a
second wife.

574
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:43,040
So Martin Luther.
So this was a different guy

575
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,120
named James Stivers, but he says
I It was not till I read Martin

576
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,880
Luther that my prejudice against
polygamy was disarmed.

577
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,320
Not only did Luther defend
polygamy as a remedy for

578
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,760
fornication, but it was far
preferable to divorce.

579
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,280
Luther's did not stand alone in
these opinions, but was

580
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,440
supported by other and Melanctin
and the Lutheran clergy in

581
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,960
general.
He insisted that whatsoever was

582
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,760
not specifically forbidden by
Scripture was optional for the

583
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,280
Christian.
And not only is there no

584
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,560
biblical ban on polygamy, there
are positive examples of it in

585
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,080
the Patriarchs.
In January 1521, Luther had

586
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,640
written to a friend whose
marital life was wholly asexual

587
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,320
owing to the illness of his
wife, and had been asked whether

588
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,920
he might take a second wife.
Luther had responded that in

589
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,880
this is his words Martin
Luther's writings.

590
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,480
I confess indeed, I cannot
forbid anyone who wishes to

591
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:37,200
marry several wives nor is that
against Holy Scripture Luther

592
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,640
OK, it just more more stuff.
Interestingly, in in view of the

593
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,280
overwhelming forces militating
against Luther giving his

594
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,160
approval to Phil because got to
remember this is pretty much

595
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,760
almost contemporary.
This is just before the King

596
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,480
James Version of the Bible, but
it's this.

597
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,760
It's all within about 80 years
of each other.

598
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,320
And Luther's given decision to
consent to a bigamist marriage

599
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,160
is astounding because at this
time in Germany, bigamy was a

600
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,080
capital offense.
He knew, and Luther clearly knew

601
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,000
from the outset in 1526, that
such a thing could cause a great

602
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,080
scandal.
Right.

603
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:21,120
There's an Italian reformer
named Bernardino Ochino, and

604
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,000
he's he writes that David was
reproached by the Lord for his

605
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,080
adultery, but never for his
polygamy.

606
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:32,200
So again, this is Bernardino
Ochino live 1487 to 1564,

607
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,880
contemporary of Martin Luther.
And he says, indeed, God clearly

608
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,720
says to David that he God had
given him David many wives,

609
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,680
though you read the whole Bible
over, you shall never find that

610
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,240
God has forbade the having of
diverse wives.

611
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,240
In short, God bless the plural
marriages of those holy men, the

612
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:53,120
first fathers of the world.
These are Ochino's nick words.

613
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,560
Moses, far from mentioning such
a ban, sets forth provisions for

614
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,080
the treatment of children in
cases where a man has two wives,

615
00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:02,040
one beloved, the other not.
And from these passages it

616
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,280
follows by the word of God that
all the children are legitimate

617
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,560
from diverse wives by the same
husband.

618
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:16,240
Anabaptist John Milton now John
John Milton was the author of

619
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:20,880
Paradise Lost.
Maybe I guess it may not be

620
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,680
super familiar to everybody, but
but I'm sure some listeners are

621
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,360
familiar with that He was a
supporter.

622
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,160
He was a defender and advocate
for polygamy in his so this is

623
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,840
what he wrote quote for the that
for that the husband is in a

624
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,120
condition to perform his
conjugal duties to the wife

625
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,240
after having taken another to
her is shown by God himself in

626
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:44,440
Exodus chapter 21 verse 10.
If you take him, another wife,

627
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,600
her food, her raiment, and her
duty of marriage shall not be

628
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,320
dismissed, diminished.
John Milton also observes that

629
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,080
God himself, Ezekiel 23 verse 4,
represents himself as having

630
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,680
espoused 2 wives, which would
have been unthinkable had the

631
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,240
practice been intrinsically
dishonorable or shameful.

632
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,160
On the contrary, Milton
maintains polygamy is, quote,

633
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,520
lawful and honorable.
Not that Milton was demonstrably

634
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,480
inclined to polygamy.
He was thrice married, but in

635
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,120
succession after the death of
the 1st and subsequently of the

636
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,400
second wife.
There is nothing particularly

637
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,120
significant about this, except
perhaps that Milton did not like

638
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,680
living alone and was fond of
female companionship.

639
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,440
In fact, he never made any
secret of his delight in the

640
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,040
quote apartment and cheerful
conversation of man with woman

641
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,320
to comfort and refresh him.
For him, the text, the key text

642
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,360
applicable to marital life was
not to increase and multiply,

643
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,920
but that quote.
It is not good for man to be

644
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,600
alone.
Right who?

645
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,160
His marriage is not just about
having children.

646
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,640
Right.
Handyship you it's counsel it's

647
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:50,920
just the joy I mean I feel bad
for guys that that are not

648
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,960
married because literally you're
missing out on one of the

649
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,920
greatest joys that's that there
is available in this life so and

650
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,160
you know if that's their choice
that's fine, but if if somebody

651
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:03,680
sincerely wants to be married
and just.

652
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,120
You can't find a companion
that's compatible like that's.

653
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,000
That's sad.
Yeah, yeah.

654
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:16,680
And so we we have all these
early Protestant leaders who

655
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,560
seem to be on board, right, so
to speak.

656
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,360
What what do you think halts
that?

657
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,760
I mean, do you think that it's
just social pressures of the

658
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,760
day?
Do you think it, you know, it

659
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,760
sounds like in Europe there's
several countries that have

660
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,320
edicts like, hey, you're
practicing plural marriage,

661
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,680
you're done.
Is is early?

662
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,800
Protestantism was the
counterculture, right, like

663
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:52,000
early Protestantism was, was
revolutionizing the religious

664
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:57,240
world, the environment there.
And so, but it was founded upon

665
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,240
education and scriptural
mastery.

666
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:07,840
And it was founded upon all of
these, these principles of, for

667
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,080
lack of a better word, just like
scholarship and and knowledge.

668
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,840
Because coming from the the
background of Catholicism, like

669
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,040
all of those things had been
squelched for generations.

670
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:26,080
And so and so, but
unfortunately, the founders of

671
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,680
the Reformation, like the early
Protestant leaders, they, they,

672
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,040
they did the work, they knew
what they were talking about.

673
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,120
They, they had done the
homework, whereas the, the

674
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:44,320
people who followed them were
sadly more following the man

675
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,240
than the, the scripture and the
principles.

676
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:53,680
And so I think that within a, a
generation or two, I mean, not

677
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,120
saying that there were no other
scholars and no other people who

678
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,440
really studied the Scriptures,
There were clearly, but but

679
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,760
these, the, the founding
generation of the Rif of the

680
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:08,440
reformers were unique in that
they were so well acquainted

681
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,680
with and and familiar with the,
the Scriptures.

682
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:18,720
The Bible.
So here's here, there's another

683
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,360
few names I'm just going to they
have, he has some excerpts from

684
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,000
their works.
But so John, I, I talked about

685
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,640
John Milton, a guy named Martin
Maidan.

686
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:31,880
He he, his claim to fame is he
wrote the hymn Hark the Herald

687
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,520
Angels Sing.
And he wrote a huge weighty

688
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,480
volume on polygamy called
Celithoria.

689
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,480
Anyway, so then there's another
one.

690
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,960
Sir Walter Raleigh and Sir
Thomas Brown.

691
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,280
Hugo Grotius, Samuel Puffendorf,
John Dunn.

692
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,240
Oh, so John Dunn the poet I
don't know if you've heard of.

693
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,320
Yeah.
Interestingly, he wrote

694
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:08,040
favorably of polygamy and King
James's own grandson, Charles

695
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,160
Lewis, Elector of the Rainish
Palatin.

696
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,040
It married a second wife without
apparently divorcing the 1st and

697
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,400
at least sponsored and possibly
wrote a defensive polygamy

698
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,840
himself.
So the poet John Donne, one of

699
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,960
his poems says how happy were
our sires in ancient time who

700
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,480
held plurality of love.
No crime.

701
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,520
So anyway, that's, I think
that's good enough for that.

702
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,960
Let's go, let's move forward.
So anything else do you want to

703
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:45,680
cover?
Anything else?

704
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:46,520
Nope.
That's good.

705
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,200
Let's move into chapter 8, which
this is where he addresses the

706
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:57,800
cultural issue.
OK, so in so in the majority of

707
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,480
the world's cultures, polygamy,
polygyny, which so polygyny is a

708
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,000
specific form of polygamy
because technically polygamy

709
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,160
could be a woman having multiple
husbands, a man having multiple

710
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,880
wives.
You know, it could be more of a

711
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,400
polyamorous type of a situation
where as polygyny is the

712
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:20,040
biblical principle of one
husband, multiple wives.

713
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,520
So anyway, so this in the
majority of the world's cultures

714
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:30,200
today and in throughout history
it is it's a viable and in many

715
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,840
it's circumstance is the ideal
option.

716
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,200
This is from a book called
Plural Marriage for our Times by

717
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,640
Philip Kilbride.
It should be noted that polygyny

718
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,880
as a marriage form is prevalent
throughout the world.

719
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,640
In historical terms, it is
monogamy that is in need of

720
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:50,040
explanation, not polygamy.
That's from another book.

721
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:51,800
All the sources are in this in
the book.

722
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,200
So just by the book, everyone
listening.

723
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:58,600
So of the 1154 Human Societies
in the Human Relations area

724
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:03,080
files of Yale University, more
than 1000 practice some degree

725
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,640
of sanctioned polygamy, and
polygamy is the preferred choice

726
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,520
in 70% of those.
Wow.

727
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,920
So monogamy is by far the
minority in in history and even

728
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,920
modern history.
Even these these are also

729
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:17,840
including contemporary
civilizations.

730
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,080
Through cultural domination,
American European social

731
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,640
structures are projected as
superior and those of other

732
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,160
peoples as inferior.
Interesting.

733
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,200
The pride of Ephraim.
Right.

734
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:39,440
So I'm just going to read a
couple other things.

735
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,560
Let's see.
This is from a book, a 24 volume

736
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,280
set called Understanding Human
Behavior, published by Columbia

737
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,760
House.
A Westerner would find it hard

738
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,320
to reconcile the rivalry and
inbuilt possessiveness of his

739
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,160
monogamous experience with the
life of peaceful polygamy.

740
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,560
To people of monogamous Western
background, polygamy seems an

741
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,440
extraordinary aberration from
the natural state of things.

742
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,960
But man is a creature of his
environment and where the

743
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,480
circumstances of our lives to
depend upon it, Polygamy might

744
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,160
simply become the rule in our
society, as it has in many

745
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,120
others, and what we now see as
emotional prohibitions would

746
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,320
evaporate.
Dude, that goes along with what

747
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,040
I told you that in that last
episode where where that guy

748
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:28,320
basically told me, oh if, if
society collapses, polygamy is

749
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:33,800
the default mechanism.
Yeah, this theme article this

750
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,080
this 24 volume series goes on
and says in some societies a man

751
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,480
may marry several wives.
Western society does allow this,

752
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,760
just in a different way.
In what is sometimes called

753
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,440
serial polygamy, a man may marry
several wives, so long as he

754
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,640
legally divorces the current one
before marrying the next.

755
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,400
Arguably, the Christian form of
polygamy is a more primitive and

756
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,880
callous arrangement for the
man's existing family than

757
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,360
ordinary polygamy.
In polygamist societies, the

758
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,440
first wife and their children
remain viable parts of a viable

759
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,360
social entity.
In serial polygamy, the children

760
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,240
are brought up in a broken home.
The wife is discarded in a

761
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:16,560
difficult social position.
It does seem unjust when it's

762
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,320
put that way, right?
I mean, there's just no other

763
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,000
way around it, right?
I mean.

764
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,720
It's kind of like it's, it's,
it's, you know what it kind of

765
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:28,360
reminds me of?
It reminds me of the Olympics

766
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:36,320
where you had this brave tranny
competing in women's sports, in

767
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:41,400
women's boxing, right?
And you have all these feminists

768
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,520
or people claiming to be
feminists cheering him on and

769
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,000
saying he's so great and so
brave and just historic and all

770
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,440
this.
When you break it down, we're

771
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,280
just, we're watching a dude beat
up a, a, a woman.

772
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:57,920
Yeah.
What's brave about that?

773
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,840
You know, and, and, and I think
it's kind of the similar concept

774
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:08,440
of when you have what's truly
pro woman.

775
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,280
Right.
Polygamy or polygamy?

776
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,880
What's pro Children right or
Pygmy?

777
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:18,720
Yeah, yeah.
Like.

778
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,000
So I don't know if you caught
it, but I did an episode with a

779
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,240
guy named Randall Edwards, who's
an attorney in Salt Lake there.

780
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:29,080
So shout out to him.
Dude's a great, great guy.

781
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:36,920
But we did an episode on what
what some of those early fights

782
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,240
against the Mormons were all
about by the time the Utah

783
00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:43,280
period rolls around and they're
talking about, you know, all the

784
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,160
polygamy in Utah that's going
on.

785
00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:50,960
One of the things they say that
I find fascinating is we don't

786
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:58,320
want to be like the mongrel
races of, of the Middle East and

787
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:03,280
Northern Africa by espousing
polygamy because it'll just lead

788
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:07,960
to, to anarchy and chaos, right?
And I find that it was

789
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,440
interesting kind of founded in
that xenophobic kind of language

790
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,840
that that's what that decision
was couched in.

791
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:21,960
It's it's pretty fascinating.
Yeah, so let's go back to James

792
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:28,120
Campbell again from the 1869
book I am called by the Justice

793
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,520
of God and the Sufferings in
Mankind in behalf of a greater

794
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,680
freedom to marry and a greater
purity of the marriage relation.

795
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,800
Let us have such marriage Laws,
that whatsoever relations any

796
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,040
honorable man shall determine to
form with the other, sex, can be

797
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,680
honorably formed and honorably
maintained.

798
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,640
By attempting to deprive 1/2 the
women of any lawful and

799
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,880
honorable means of amorous
Pleasure, and by allowing the

800
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:57,080
Men only partial and inadequate
means, it impels a multitude of

801
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,640
each sex, whose secret
Transgression or else to open

802
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,840
profligacy.
Now which social System is the

803
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,600
more honorable and manly, the
more virtuous and pure?

804
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,880
The one more in accordance with
nature and the laws of Nature's

805
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:15,800
God, A pretended and a corrupt
monogamy, or an open and honest

806
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:21,280
ligamy, which manifests the more
base and selfish passion.

807
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,040
The man who espouses the
partners of his love, and takes

808
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,600
them to his home in his heart,
and provides for them and their

809
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,240
children?
Or the man who steals away from

810
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:32,280
his house in the dark and
indulges his dishonorable and

811
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:36,000
degrading passion in secret dark
places, and then abandons the

812
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,040
partners of his guilty pleasure
to a life of wretchedness and

813
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:47,600
shame and want.
Well, and and there's a point to

814
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,880
that too, right?
Clear up to Victorian times, it

815
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:56,280
was considered gentlemanly to
visit the local House of ill

816
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,600
repute, right?
I mean, it was just what quote

817
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,600
boys did.
And I find that rather

818
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,600
disgusting.
And, and I want to be careful to

819
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:11,600
never use something as, as, you
know, noble, as plural marriage,

820
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:18,160
as, you know, a license to just
have a guy be carnal, right?

821
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,320
Obviously sex is a part of
marriage.

822
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:29,360
There's no way around it.
But but I don't want to give

823
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,080
anyone the the idea that hey
man, this is just a way for you

824
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:37,920
to get satisfied without any
real work because this does take

825
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:46,440
work. 100% Well, and not only
that, like the the people who

826
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:52,480
the the people who would accused
a man who believes in or is

827
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,960
interested in in living the
plural marriage principle of

828
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:01,760
being motivated only by lust.
Like what does that say about

829
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,200
that person?
I think it says more about that

830
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:09,640
person and it says about the
practice because because one of

831
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:15,720
one of the most God ordained
motives for marriage, at least

832
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:23,160
for a dude, is gratification of
the sexual urge, right?

833
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,320
And and it's not Christianity
that has a problem with that.

834
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,520
It's Gnostics, Gnosticism,
right?

835
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,000
Gnosticism is, is the problem.
It's not Christianity, it's not

836
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,200
the scriptures.
And so we need to kind of

837
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:44,040
reframe that narrative as well,
the guy that any man who is

838
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:51,640
against polygamy, I think if he
fights against it, then that

839
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,400
says a lot more about his, you
know, probably marriage

840
00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:02,800
situation than it says about, I
think it's just a revealing of

841
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:04,280
the true condition of people's
hearts.

842
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,040
No, I think, I think you're
right.

843
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,880
Because I mean, you don't have
to lust a woman to marry her

844
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,600
monogamously.
No, I highly recommend against.

845
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,440
In fact, I think that, you know,
lust.

846
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,960
We shouldn't objectify women for
any reason, even if it's a wife,

847
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,200
even it's you know, that's
that's kind of a no brainer in

848
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:29,920
my opinion.
But but lust, you can have a

849
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:34,520
desire and attraction without
lust and anyone else otherwise.

850
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,840
So they're they're less.
If they're married then I guess

851
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,400
they are admitting that they
married for lust.

852
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:43,560
I mean what else?
What else can you say?

853
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,120
About that, yeah.
Yeah.

854
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:47,400
No, I see where you're going
there.

855
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:53,400
That makes sense, yeah.
All right, so a guy, Samuel

856
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,640
Chapman writes in.
Polygamous groups throughout

857
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,280
history have tended to offer a
better better deal for women

858
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,120
than their monogamous
contemporaries.

859
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,640
Friedman, Bergstrom, and Becker
state that this is not without

860
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,320
reason, as in economic terms it
raises the demand for women

861
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,720
while increasing the supply of
men.

862
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,640
So simple supply demand
economics meaning that men who

863
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:23,960
that men have to do more to
attract women and keep them, and

864
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,640
are therefore inclined to treat
them better than under monogamy.

865
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:32,840
Right.
No, you, you go to BYU, there is

866
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:39,240
a, an absolute deficiency of men
and an absolute overabundance of

867
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:41,960
women.
And so then what happens?

868
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:47,440
Dudes can play, they can be
picky, they can wait, they can

869
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,560
do, you know, they can do
whatever they want because

870
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,720
because they're God, they're
they're the king in that

871
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:57,080
environment.
And, you know, we need to, we

872
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:00,920
need to reframe this.
Men should be the ones having to

873
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:08,120
earn the trust in regard of
women and be able to, you know,

874
00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:10,920
have to have to merit those
blessings.

875
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:15,840
Anyway, you got to kind of work
for it, right?

876
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,840
I mean, showing up, showing up
is not going to just give you,

877
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:21,960
get you a medal.
You, you're going to have to

878
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,120
have to work at being a good guy
and, and a good provider and a

879
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,240
good husband and, and, and all
those things that go along with

880
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:32,240
that.
Despite our society's

881
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:35,440
hypocritical objection to plural
marriage, serial polygamy is

882
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,320
freely practiced and approved by
both civil governments and

883
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,720
religious institutions.
Sadly, even the LDS Church

884
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,000
leaving in their wake the
countless broken lives of

885
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:50,240
deserted women and children.
Really, who is immoral here?

886
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,640
What a shame.
Yeah, so.

887
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:58,600
Now in Chapter 9, so that was
kind of some of the and looking

888
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,600
at some of the negative aspects
of, of, of our cultural

889
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,360
abandonment of polygamy.
Now Chapter 9, let's look at the

890
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,240
benefits and the positive
aspects of plural marriage.

891
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,880
This is from a lady named Doctor
Joyce Brothers.

892
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:23,680
Interestingly, she said this on
Bill Maher's Comedies show in

893
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,320
1994.
She says polygamy is not as bad

894
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,800
as people think.
I would much rather be third in

895
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,400
line of a good man than the only
wife of a jerk.

896
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:40,680
Well.
Put Yeah, hard to argue with

897
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,560
that.
So, based upon our study so far,

898
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:45,960
the most obvious benefit of
polygamy is the provision it

899
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,760
supplies to unmarried women who
desire marriage in children.

900
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,880
No woman would be forced by
default to live in celibacy or

901
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,200
live alone, or be required to
steal another woman's husband in

902
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,440
order to have one herself.
Godly polygamy provides that all

903
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,440
women who want a husband and
family can have them.

904
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,320
It would assure that all women
are cherished and adored.

905
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,400
The repercussions of such a
provision produce an

906
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:12,200
incalculable windfall.
Adriana Blake, the attorney that

907
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,720
we've quoted before, says plural
marriage would improve the

908
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:17,360
quality of men.
The quality of men.

909
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,320
Plural marriage would mean that
a woman would not have to settle

910
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,440
for any man rather than none at
all.

911
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,320
Her choices will not be confined
to those men who are single or

912
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,320
divorced or willing to deceive
their wives.

913
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,280
Assurance that she will have a
place within a family and a

914
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,120
husband and father for her
children means a woman will have

915
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:37,080
more and better choices.
The man who is kind, considerate

916
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:40,800
and caring, gentle and loving is
the man who will attract women

917
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,240
to his household.
Women will want to be with him.

918
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:49,640
And if we look at section what
is it 121?

919
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,920
It's describing it one of the
statements that it's talking

920
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:55,720
about, and this is talking about
priesthood, but I think it

921
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,720
applies to any form of
leadership or parenthood or, you

922
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,120
know, husbandship.
And it basically the the the

923
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:06,080
point that it makes is that the
the.

924
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,800
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925
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,800
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926
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,600
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927
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,040
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928
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929
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:28,560
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930
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:33,120
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931
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,200
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Dave Sanders.

932
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,880
Click the link in this episode
Show notes today.

933
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:44,280
And if we look at section, what
is it 121?

934
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,520
It's describing it one of the
statements that it's talking

935
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,360
about, and this is talking about
priesthood, but I think it

936
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,360
applies to any form of
leadership or parenthood or, you

937
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,720
know, husbandship.
And it basically the, the, the

938
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:04,520
point that it makes is that the,
the, what is the, the point I'm

939
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,440
trying to make is I'm just, I
just blanked on.

940
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:08,920
Oh, yeah, without compulsory
means.

941
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,400
Sorry, my mind just went blank
for a second there.

942
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:16,080
Without compulsory means, it, it
shall flow into thee forever and

943
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,760
ever.
So without compulsory means

944
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,160
means that there's no coercion
involved.

945
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:25,560
It's just basically what the so
'cause reality is, if you want

946
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:29,000
to have a celestial quality
marriage, you have to earn that.

947
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:35,600
You have to BA celestial quality
person if you want a quality

948
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,480
marriage.
And so so she's just talking

949
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:44,920
about the IT.
It will be completely by desire,

950
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:50,280
not by, you know, a lot of girls
stick in their marriage because

951
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,880
they feel like they have to.
They've made a covenant or

952
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,520
whatever.
And, and I'm not saying that

953
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:00,680
covenant should not be taken
very seriously, but covenants

954
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,160
are not unconditional.
I guess that's maybe a way to

955
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,560
phrase that.
If a man is breaking his

956
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:13,600
covenants, being an abusive
piece of garbage, the woman is

957
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:17,840
not under obligation, covenantal
obligation to just be cool with

958
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,760
that and accept that and and
just endure that forever.

959
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:24,280
So with plural marriage
available, more women would be

960
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:27,560
content within the marriage and
would remain because they'd have

961
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,640
the opportunity to choose men
who would treat them well.

962
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,040
Plural marriage means that if a
woman could share a husband, her

963
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:35,720
chances are better of getting a
good one.

964
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,920
The familiar line all the good
men are taken won't be valid

965
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,600
anymore because the good men can
be shared.

966
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,760
Rotten men won't get wives
because women won't have to

967
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:50,080
settle for what's available.
Women will no longer fear that

968
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,040
they will be left out of the
marriage lottery.

969
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,160
They will not have to settle for
who is available rather than the

970
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:59,040
chance of facing life alone.
Plural marriage could improve

971
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,360
the quality of marriage.
The quality of marriage would

972
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,800
improve the quality of life for
women by improving the caliber

973
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,040
of the men they choose for
husbands.

974
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,040
If men were allowed to have more
than one wife, then the good men

975
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,680
who treated women well would be
the successful man in attracting

976
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:15,280
wife.
Where we have a society that

977
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,880
demands A1 to one relationship
for marriage, there simply are

978
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,920
not enough men to go around
Whenever you have a demand that

979
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:25,920
it see exceeds supply and
inflated value attaches to the

980
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,120
item in short supply.
In the present case, the man.

981
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,360
Unattached women compete with
each other to their detriment

982
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,160
for a chance at the marriage
lottery.

983
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,360
Those men who do not treat women
well will do without.

984
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,200
There would be no reason for a
woman to stay in an abusive and

985
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,600
punishing relationship.
She could leave free to find a

986
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:45,920
household that would welcome and
cherish her.

987
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,040
It just gives women more.
Argue with all that.

988
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:52,640
Yeah, it, it, it just gives
women more options.

989
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:56,440
I mean, I don't, I don't know
how, how else to put it right.

990
01:01:56,440 --> 01:02:00,280
I mean, look, I, I've had the
opportunity, not just my own,

991
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,680
but to see other, you know,
polygamous households, right?

992
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,600
And, and just talk about their
lived experience.

993
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:10,760
And one, one of the things I
noticed is that one of the

994
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:16,880
benefits are there's like not
just the opportunity to marry a

995
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:21,080
better man, but an opportunity
to have different roles at

996
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:23,040
different times of your life,
right?

997
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,360
I talked to one woman who was
like, oh, I, I love it.

998
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,520
She's like, right now I'm in a
stage of life where where my

999
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,400
kids are grown and gone.
I can go to work, you know,

1000
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:36,720
somebody else can, can do this.
And, and those roles can often

1001
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:40,800
shift and rotate, right?
So what's interesting is that if

1002
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,480
there was a slide that was sold
about, well, you can have it

1003
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,600
all.
Well, you sure can, but it might

1004
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:51,760
not necessarily be what was
peddled to you, right?

1005
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:59,080
And, and so I'm, I'm, I'm always
very, very hesitant to like be

1006
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,320
like, hey, come on, it's great
over here.

1007
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,480
But I mean, there, there, there
are options, right?

1008
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:08,720
And I, I think it's important
that those get get talked about

1009
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:13,440
a little bit.
Well, and to me it's it

1010
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,640
polygamy, you know, a polygamist
society does not mean that every

1011
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:23,560
man is, is practicing it right.
You know, if, if times are

1012
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:28,320
peaceful and you know, people
are healthy and there's a degree

1013
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:32,200
of safety and stability and
security, and there may not be

1014
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:36,800
an, A, a huge excess of women
who need a, a, a husband.

1015
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:40,360
Like that's an actual ideal
situation, right?

1016
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:46,040
That's, that's what we would all
strive for and, and hope for.

1017
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:51,920
But the, and So what I would say
is people who maybe they would

1018
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:57,000
never live the principle
personally, but they really

1019
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:01,800
ought to never be opposed to
other people consensually living

1020
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:03,800
it.
So even if it's something that

1021
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:07,080
they are personally not
interested in, nobody's I'm not,

1022
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,400
I certainly, I'm not suggesting
that we force anybody to do

1023
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,240
something against their
conscience or what they want.

1024
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:19,440
We need to provide agency to
those who may have different

1025
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:23,000
choices or different values or
different beliefs, like let's be

1026
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:27,080
respectful and honor that.
So we've talked about some of

1027
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:29,760
the benefits that this system
provides for women.

1028
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:34,400
It it just ensures that every
woman who wants to be married

1029
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,520
can be married to a good man.
Right.

1030
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:42,760
Alice Pivot restored headship.
The divine principle of headship

1031
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:48,680
in the family has been destroyed
by Christendom's monogamy.

1032
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:51,760
Men have been emasculated in
their roles as husbands and

1033
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,320
fathers.
Their God ordained placement in

1034
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:57,960
the home has been replaced by
supposed partnerships.

1035
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,560
Divinely established patriarchy
has been usurped by what is, for

1036
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,280
all practical purposes,
matriarchy.

1037
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,200
The family will never function
as designed by God until there

1038
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,200
is a return to biblical
patriarchy.

1039
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:16,800
As unpopular as this is today,
this is God's order of things.

1040
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:19,960
I mean, this is something
everybody understood for

1041
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,760
generations, but somehow we've
forgotten in the last

1042
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,680
generation.
There is nothing quite like

1043
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:32,000
polygamy to emphasize this
crucial aspect of headship.

1044
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,280
He quotes another author, Tom
Shipley.

1045
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:40,840
The unbiblical monogamy only
doctrine is an irreconcilable

1046
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,720
conflict with the Bible's
teaching of the headship of the

1047
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,400
father and husband.
Male headship, when legally

1048
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:49,760
enforced monogamy is in effect,
is a delusive fiction.

1049
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,720
Legally enforced monogamy is in
operation, a logical and de

1050
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:57,120
facto negation of the hierarchy
of the biblical family.

1051
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:01,960
A patriarchal law order without
polygamy is patriarchal in name

1052
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:05,160
only.
Coligeny is patriarchy in

1053
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:11,360
action?
So, OK, I, I want to, I want to

1054
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,720
unpack something here real quick
and this is going to be a side

1055
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:19,800
tangent, but I feel like it's
important pertaining to this

1056
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:24,840
part of the conversation.
The term patriarchy today is

1057
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,880
loaded, right?
I mean, it's, it's one of those

1058
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:31,240
things.
So I want to as a guy who

1059
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:35,640
believes in plural marriage, as
a guy who who says, hey, this is

1060
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:40,360
this is good and there is a
divine order to the family with,

1061
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,800
with the husband standing at the
head of the family.

1062
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:49,480
What does when when you hear the
word patriarchy, you tell me

1063
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,480
what you think that looks like
in a healthy situation?

1064
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,400
You know, there's all these
jokes about how, you know, the

1065
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:02,200
husband is the head, but the
wife is the neck.

1066
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,200
You know, there's all these
jokes about how basically, you

1067
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:13,840
know, you can't ever expect that
you're, you're, you'll be able

1068
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,480
to preside in your home because
your wife will wear the pants.

1069
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,000
You know, there's different
phrases and, and kind of

1070
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,840
expressions in our, in our kind
of vernacular, but, but

1071
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:26,800
essentially they all mean the
same thing, which is that, you

1072
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,720
know, women just allow men to
think that they're in charge.

1073
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:35,520
And this is I, I, I don't, I, I
don't think anybody listening

1074
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:38,080
can deny this.
This is very much just as much

1075
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:42,000
in the LDS Church as it is in
Christianity as it is in

1076
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,160
secular.
Like everybody, women have been

1077
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:49,240
exalted at, at the cost, at what
cost?

1078
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:54,200
At the detriment of men.
And you know, I love women.

1079
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:56,840
I'm not suggesting that we don't
exalt women.

1080
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:00,160
I'm not suggesting that that,
you know, that this was even an

1081
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,600
intentional or a nefariously
motivated thing that women have

1082
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,880
done.
But it is a direct consequence

1083
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,520
of abandoning biblical
patriarchy, the patriarchal

1084
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:14,080
order, and certainly not what
Brigham and Joseph Smith and

1085
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,920
John Taylor in the early Mormon
leaders were, were after.

1086
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:21,840
They would just short shudder at
the modern state of the church

1087
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:26,399
and men and women and families.
But going back to your question,

1088
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:29,640
what do I think that a
patriarchal, a healthy

1089
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:36,479
patriarchal system looks like?
It looks like a man who does not

1090
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:41,640
view his role as a husband, as a
head of his household, as

1091
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:49,720
something to do that gives him
coercive power over anybody

1092
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:54,920
else.
It makes him responsible to make

1093
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:58,359
sure that everybody has a voice
and every voice gets heard.

1094
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:03,000
It makes him the primary
responsible party of who is

1095
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:07,040
going to settle disputes.
You know, cuz there's a lot of

1096
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:11,279
times that there's, there's
conflict there.

1097
01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:15,160
You know, kids are arguing, a
wife is arguing with, you know,

1098
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:18,240
if it's a plural situation,
wives might be arguing.

1099
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:22,640
It's the role of a husband to be
an impartial arbiter that who

1100
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:27,399
loves both parties, allows
everything to be said and who

1101
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:30,319
has earned the confidence of his
wives to the point where he can,

1102
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:34,800
can just basically make a
decision and, and both parties

1103
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,160
will accept it because he is
that reliable.

1104
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:40,279
He has earned that trust and is
worthy of their trust.

1105
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:45,240
So I don't know, I, I didn't
have like a succinct answer

1106
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:46,399
prepared.
That was a good question.

1107
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:49,240
But does that kind of answer
what you're, you know, give,

1108
01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:51,880
give?
I, I think so.

1109
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,960
I think so.
And, and look, I'm going to talk

1110
01:09:54,960 --> 01:10:00,000
about this now from a very
Mormon perspective, because I

1111
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:09,840
feel like Mormons have a, a
proper view of this to frame, to

1112
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:17,120
frame it in.
Every time a man gets priesthood

1113
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:22,480
or priesthood advancement into
another office, almost always it

1114
01:10:22,480 --> 01:10:28,320
isn't accompanied by more
responsibility, more service,

1115
01:10:29,440 --> 01:10:33,280
greater service, more charity,
all those things.

1116
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,840
Now in in Mormonism, we
understand that the term

1117
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:43,080
patriarchy or patriarchal is
kind of a priesthood title,

1118
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:45,120
right?
Yes.

1119
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:53,560
With that being said, it's one
of the higher, higher positions

1120
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:56,240
within the priesthood, I guess,
if that makes sense.

1121
01:10:56,280 --> 01:11:03,280
Oh yeah.
So if the system has been with

1122
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:07,200
patriarchal IR, excuse me,
priesthood advancement, that

1123
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:11,480
there comes more service with
every step.

1124
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:15,840
Why would that be any different?
So as I think about, you know

1125
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,080
what, what would patriarchy look
like?

1126
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:22,240
And it's something I try hard to
instill and and practice here

1127
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:24,720
here in my family.
I'm not always successful.

1128
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:31,800
I try very hard is an idea of
how can I serve my family today,

1129
01:11:32,480 --> 01:11:35,560
right?
Not you're simply here for my

1130
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:42,000
own self aggrandizement, not
from any showy, nasty, weird

1131
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:46,400
sort of a way, but more from how
can I make these people I love

1132
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:51,200
in my home even more happy today
than they were yesterday?

1133
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:57,040
And approach it from a very
service oriented mindset, a a

1134
01:11:59,920 --> 01:12:04,600
provider and a protector and and
all those things that go along

1135
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:07,160
with it.
And I think what we've done is

1136
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:12,920
we've allowed kind of that
radical feminist side of this

1137
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:19,000
equation to be able to take and
redefine what that means to be a

1138
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:22,520
patriarch in your own home or
patriarchy in general.

1139
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:26,440
And, and it's one of those
things that I think deserves

1140
01:12:26,440 --> 01:12:31,600
some attention and maybe to have
it defined back to what I

1141
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:37,440
believe God intended it to be,
which was I'm just here to serve

1142
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:40,480
and love my family, no matter
how many wives or children are

1143
01:12:40,480 --> 01:12:42,880
there.
That's my job as the patriarch

1144
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:46,720
within my home.
God tells us very succinctly in

1145
01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:50,480
the Pearl of great price.
My work in my glory is to bring

1146
01:12:50,480 --> 01:12:55,200
to pass the immortality and
eternal life of man right now.

1147
01:12:55,200 --> 01:13:03,160
If that's the the ultimate
patriarchs goal, I think as

1148
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,480
humans that's what we should
pattern that after as human men

1149
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,120
if if we seek to be a patriarch
in our own home.

1150
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:18,240
Yeah, I would say that the the
the first step that led to

1151
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:24,000
getting so far off the path off
golf course is forgetting the

1152
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,600
true nature of leadership and
headship.

1153
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:31,480
And when you start equating
headship with a positional type

1154
01:13:31,480 --> 01:13:36,720
of authority that gives you, you
know, license to give orders and

1155
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:42,040
expect to be obeyed and gives
you control and compulsive

1156
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:46,640
influence over those around you.
Like whether that's

1157
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:51,880
ecclesiastical or familial or
political or any of that, like

1158
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:54,880
that is that is where things
went off the ropes.

1159
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:58,360
That is where the problem I
think originates with all of

1160
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:01,440
these things.
So, you know, if we're wanting

1161
01:14:01,440 --> 01:14:05,640
to fix things, we need to heal
the proper perspective and

1162
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:10,520
definition of patriarchy, which
which requires us to heal and,

1163
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:15,120
and gain the proper perspective
of polygamy and kind of go hand

1164
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:22,320
in hand and then we just need to
apply it.

1165
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:28,520
So, yeah, I was going to say if,
if, if anybody thinks that

1166
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:31,840
plural marriage is all about the
dude just barking out orders.

1167
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:35,960
Come hang out at my house,
right, Right.

1168
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:40,600
Come, come hang out at my house,
right, Right.

1169
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,880
It doesn't work that way.
There's more of the girls than

1170
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,920
there are of me.
And and here's.

1171
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:51,400
Nevertheless, nevertheless, you
have a responsibility that if

1172
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:55,440
they're if they if they are
maybe perhaps being influenced

1173
01:14:55,440 --> 01:14:58,800
by excessive emotion or if
they're being influenced by the

1174
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,080
like you were there to protect
them essentially from

1175
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:07,800
themselves, right.
And and so yeah, like that, that

1176
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:12,040
sword cuts both directions.
And, you know, and I, I just

1177
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:17,560
don't understand a woman, how a
woman would not want a dude to

1178
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:23,000
protect her from getting out of,
you know, excessively

1179
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:25,520
emotionally involved with this
or that and, and that sort of

1180
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:26,800
thing.
So yeah, I.

1181
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:29,720
And, and, and you're 100%
correct, right?

1182
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,120
And this is where we could have
a conversation.

1183
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:36,000
We won't 'cause it would take
too long, but a conversation

1184
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,760
about, about how the divine
feminine and the divine

1185
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:45,560
masculine really do come into
balance, right?

1186
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:53,080
I'll, I'll just use use use my
my case as an example.

1187
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:58,640
We came out here to Missouri to
visit and we went back home to

1188
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:00,880
Utah.
And I'm like, yeah, I think, I

1189
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:02,920
think we can do this right.
I think this will work.

1190
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:06,640
Let's give it a good year.
Let's settle everything down.

1191
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:11,240
And let's you know, it was a
very rational, it was a very

1192
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:17,120
orderly, methodical man, right?
Methodical, like the way most

1193
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:20,320
dudes like to do it, right?
Yep.

1194
01:16:20,480 --> 01:16:23,800
Girls were feeling something
completely different than I was

1195
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:27,600
completely different, right.
And I was holding my ground.

1196
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:31,560
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, this is what we're

1197
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:35,400
going to do, right?
And there was one night they

1198
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,720
just, I, I'd finished up a
podcast and they came up to the,

1199
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:42,440
to that upstairs office where I
had, and they just sat me down

1200
01:16:42,440 --> 01:16:47,440
and they just said, we are
really feeling like we are,

1201
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:50,880
we're to go sooner.
And I was hesitant.

1202
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:54,760
I was like, no, no, I, you know,
this is the orderly exit, right?

1203
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:59,600
And in my dude brain, right,
this rational makes sense,

1204
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:03,000
whatever.
But in that case, they weren't

1205
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:05,960
tuned to something that I wasn't
right.

1206
01:17:06,480 --> 01:17:10,760
And after I prayed about it
again, I was like, Oh, they got

1207
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:14,240
something here right now.
There's been times where, where,

1208
01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:17,720
where, you know, there is that
thing about, OK, too much

1209
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:19,520
emotion.
Let's inject some logic into

1210
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:22,800
this thing, right?
But, but those are the kind of

1211
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:27,440
balances you want, right?
And, and that can happen in a

1212
01:17:27,440 --> 01:17:31,080
plural, plural marriage.
I've seen it it it does work

1213
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:34,240
still so.
Yeah.

1214
01:17:34,480 --> 01:17:39,400
Well, I mean, at A, at a really
practical level, it, you know,

1215
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:43,120
if this is an eternal principle,
which I believe it is there,

1216
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:51,400
then if it's true, then it will
be supported by reason, by

1217
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:55,840
practical experience, by the
Holy Spirit within us that, you

1218
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:59,000
know, the, the, the, the, the
whisperings of the Holy Ghost to

1219
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:03,880
our, our own heart.
Like if it's true, we then we

1220
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:06,320
can have confidence in those
realities.

1221
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:16,040
So the the idea of I just don't
understand.

1222
01:18:16,480 --> 01:18:21,800
Well, I do understand there are
those who want to exercise

1223
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:28,720
authority over the over other
and you know, they might see

1224
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:33,400
polygamy as an Ave. to be able
to, you know, have all their

1225
01:18:33,440 --> 01:18:37,280
wildest dreams come true of
exercising unrighteous dominion

1226
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:39,200
over others.
And we've seen horror stories

1227
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:40,720
like that with Warren Jeffs and
whatnot.

1228
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:44,040
But it's not the practice.
It's the man.

1229
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:47,400
It's not bigamy that is the
culprit in that situation.

1230
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:52,080
It's a fallen and broken and
evil perspective of leadership

1231
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:55,560
and headship and and you know,
priesthood and all of it.

1232
01:18:56,040 --> 01:19:06,320
So if we can basically get over
our emotional response to

1233
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:12,920
polygamy, we have a chance of
being able to heal some of these

1234
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:17,160
things that have been wrong with
our society forever, for

1235
01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:20,840
generations now.
So, you know, and just to kind

1236
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:24,440
of finish up with this chapter
here, it talks about greater

1237
01:19:24,440 --> 01:19:27,080
family stability, which totally
benefits children.

1238
01:19:29,440 --> 01:19:34,480
It's a it's a safe haven for
older wives, for widows.

1239
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:38,040
I'm just going to read this.
It says the plural marriage

1240
01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:40,520
household can provide a safe
haven as well as solace for a

1241
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:43,160
woman as she gets older.
She will not be left alone

1242
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:46,080
through divorce or or if she
becomes a widow because there's

1243
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:48,760
no need for another wife to
displace her in a divorce

1244
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:50,400
situation.
She'll have her own place within

1245
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:52,560
the household.
Instead of being rejected, she

1246
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:54,720
assumes a position of respect
within the family.

1247
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:58,160
True benefit of plural marriage
is available for the widow.

1248
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:01,320
She is not the only widow.
Wives have been widowed together

1249
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:06,400
like you know.
You know, in hopefully like 50

1250
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:10,320
years, when it's your time to
go, Dave, your ladies will not

1251
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:15,880
have to mourn your loss alone.
They'll have each other and be

1252
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:18,360
together.
With so two of the biggest

1253
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:21,160
problems for widows, loneliness
and depression will have less

1254
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:23,000
opportunity to develop.
For the wise, we'll have each

1255
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:24,720
other.
Her sister and marriage will be

1256
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:26,880
there to support her.
She will not face these times

1257
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:29,080
alone.
If the husband had been ailing

1258
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:31,840
for some time before his death,
all of the burden of care will

1259
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:34,000
not have fallen on the shoulders
of one person.

1260
01:20:34,480 --> 01:20:36,880
The burden of the ailing spouse
will have been shared.

1261
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:45,440
So anyway, there's one last
chapter and it's pretty short.

1262
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:49,360
I'm going to read maybe four or
five paragraphs from it.

1263
01:20:50,160 --> 01:20:52,680
This is his kind of closing
argument.

1264
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:56,160
And then the the index has like
a lot of the sort or it's not

1265
01:20:56,320 --> 01:21:00,080
the appendices, like this whole
book is less than 100 pages

1266
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:01,520
long.
It's more like a big pamphlet.

1267
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:05,400
But then he has all of the
source documents that he's

1268
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,600
inciting from in the second-half
of this book, so.

1269
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:15,440
That's a lot of sources, yeah.
So chapter 10 who is immoral?

1270
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:20,240
The single woman's genuine need
for a husband can't be patched

1271
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:23,000
away with a singles ministry or
a lady's fellowship.

1272
01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:25,600
She still goes home to face life
alone.

1273
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:29,840
The mother who is a single
parent will not have her basic

1274
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:34,680
needs met by church, daycare,
Sunday school, Awana's vacation

1275
01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:37,600
Bible school, or even by
assigning her someone to

1276
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:40,040
occasionally visit and help out
around the house.

1277
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:44,880
Neither will her most
fundamental needs be met by WIC,

1278
01:21:44,960 --> 01:21:46,960
welfare, or other social
services.

1279
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:49,840
These are all band aids on a
serious wound.

1280
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:52,480
She needs a husband.
Her children need a father.

1281
01:21:53,080 --> 01:21:56,000
The social and religious culture
that denies a woman the right to

1282
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:58,880
marry is the actual cause of the
single woman and the single

1283
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:02,600
mother's problems at the outset.
This system then sets about to

1284
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:06,120
dress the very wound that they
have inflicted.

1285
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:08,680
Just who is immoral in these
situations?

1286
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:11,560
A man who would love a woman and
marry her?

1287
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:15,080
A man who would cherish, care
for, and protect her?

1288
01:22:15,480 --> 01:22:17,960
A man who would be a loving and
dedicated father to her

1289
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:19,880
children.
Are these the immoral ones?

1290
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:24,680
Or is it an entire society,
religious and secular, who is

1291
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,560
immoral?
A society who denies her the

1292
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,600
open, honest and respectable
right to have a husband?

1293
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:35,800
Who really is immoral?
Here Jesus Himself railed

1294
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:37,800
against the religious leaders of
his day.

1295
01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:41,160
Woe unto you scribes and
Pharisees, hypocrites.

1296
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:44,760
He indicted them for having
omitted the wait.

1297
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:47,560
Here, matters of the law,
judgement, mercy, and faith.

1298
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:51,160
So should our social and
religious leaders be called into

1299
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:53,960
account for their immoral
actions.

1300
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:58,640
First Timothy chapter 4 verses
one through 3 states.

1301
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:02,760
Now the Spirit speaks expressly
that in the latter times some

1302
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:06,240
shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits

1303
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:10,240
and doctrines of devils,
speaking lies in hypocrisy,

1304
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:15,680
having their conscience seared
with a hot iron, forbidding to

1305
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:21,000
Mary.
So the unscriptural limiting of

1306
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:23,600
marriage to monogamy forbids the
scriptural marriage of many

1307
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:25,480
women.
According to Paul, this sad and

1308
01:23:25,480 --> 01:23:27,640
ungodly teaching is a doctrine
of devils.

1309
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:31,880
Shame on Christendom and
Mormondum for their spiritual

1310
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:34,960
arrogance and evil presumption
to condemn what God Himself has

1311
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:38,320
ordained, and for the tremendous
immoral repercussions of their

1312
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:41,840
godless teaching.
Wow.

1313
01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:47,520
In conclusion, the last one is
again from Adriana Blake, the

1314
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:50,880
attorney.
She says the decision to enter a

1315
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:53,000
plural marriage will require
courage.

1316
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:55,680
Friends and family may be
discouraging.

1317
01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:58,600
It seems to be an element of
human nature that we are not

1318
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:01,760
willing to allow our friends to
seek a solution to a problem in

1319
01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:04,800
their lives that is different
from the one we have chosen for

1320
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:08,120
ourselves.
The first Cavalry men through

1321
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:11,120
the pass is the one that gets
all the arrows, goes the old

1322
01:24:11,120 --> 01:24:14,400
saying.
Pioneers in any endeavor are

1323
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:18,240
always targets for criticism.
However, the rewards can be

1324
01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:20,520
great.
Perhaps this book will make your

1325
01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:23,720
choices and your decision easier
because he's basically

1326
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:29,040
advocating you know what?
Oh, there's all sorts of legal

1327
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:35,080
and other risks and hazards.
This is a great omission.

1328
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:39,400
This is a great sin of omission
and we need to repent as a

1329
01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:41,760
people so.
Absolutely.

1330
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:47,960
You know, I, I'll say this too,
I, I don't, while certainly

1331
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:53,800
there's some, some legal
intricacies, right, that have to

1332
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:58,680
be navigated, right, that I've,
that I've dealt with as far as,

1333
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:02,440
you know, OK, if there's a will,
that sort of thing, spelling

1334
01:25:02,440 --> 01:25:06,440
that out, beneficiaries on life
insurance policies, those sorts

1335
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:11,200
of things, by and large, it, the
legalities aren't what they used

1336
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:13,240
to be.
And quite frankly, none of us

1337
01:25:13,240 --> 01:25:17,960
these days really have to worry
about anyone coming to take our

1338
01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:20,720
kids over this right?
If you're not a dirtbag.

1339
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:24,520
And you're not days anymore.
Right, right.

1340
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:27,160
If you're not a dirtbag and
you're not abusing your kids,

1341
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:29,440
chances are you're going to be
just fine.

1342
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:35,720
And likewise, and you know, this
is something I saw personally

1343
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:42,160
with with both of my wives was
there is the the fiercest push

1344
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:45,400
back will come from those who
are closer to you, closest to

1345
01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:48,120
you.
That's just what it is.

1346
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:59,450
But I'll say this.
One of my mother in

1347
01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:17,800
I did enjoy it a little bit that
for six hours because I could

1348
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:21,400
tell everything was really
awkward for her.

1349
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:28,480
But afterwards, I think there
was a softening, right?

1350
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:34,520
There was a softening that
happened towards towards the

1351
01:26:34,520 --> 01:26:37,480
other wife that was I didn't see
coming, right?

1352
01:26:37,480 --> 01:26:39,800
I'm not saying everybody's the
best of friends or whatever

1353
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:44,000
right now, but typically once
somebody that cares about you

1354
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:47,320
finds that, hey, this is what
makes me happy, right?

1355
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:53,480
And this is, you know, what I
have chosen, those things tend

1356
01:26:53,480 --> 01:26:59,200
to loosen up a little bit.
And so I would just say if, if

1357
01:26:59,200 --> 01:27:01,960
you're pulled in this direction,
go in with your eyes wide open,

1358
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:04,920
right?
Don't, don't have on rolls, rose

1359
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:07,680
colored glasses and think, oh,
everything will just fall into

1360
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:10,640
place and it'll be OK and, and
whatnot.

1361
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:16,880
Understand that if you're a dude
who who feels this, feels that

1362
01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:20,520
call from the correct place,
which is your heart, gentlemen,

1363
01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:26,880
and you're, you know, a woman
who, who desires this form of

1364
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:28,920
life.
I mean, go for it.

1365
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:30,640
We only get one shot at this
thing.

1366
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:34,960
And if, if it's what makes you
happy, great.

1367
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:39,120
And to those who who think, you
know, don't want to do this, I'm

1368
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:40,880
not telling you you have to do
it.

1369
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:45,160
I'm not telling you you even
have to condone my lifestyle.

1370
01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:48,640
I don't care.
I'm secure enough in my, in what

1371
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:51,440
I've done.
And so this shouldn't be a

1372
01:27:51,440 --> 01:27:54,280
threat to anybody who doesn't
want to join in.

1373
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:59,440
We're not, we are not out there
banging for litigation to make

1374
01:27:59,440 --> 01:28:01,880
this the only valid marriage
system.

1375
01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:05,960
That's not what we're out for.
We just want to live and, and be

1376
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:11,200
left alone to, to live to the
dictates of our own conscience.

1377
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:14,480
I guess right at the end of the
day, that's, that's just what

1378
01:28:14,480 --> 01:28:18,480
we're after.
But I think I think the times

1379
01:28:18,480 --> 01:28:22,320
are coming where this will be
more socially accepted than ever

1380
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:23,560
before.
So.

1381
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:28,520
So, yeah, marriage let's let's
look at the term because I mean,

1382
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:31,800
it's, it's one of those things
that most people like you don't

1383
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:35,160
need to define or qualify the
term marriage because it's just

1384
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:37,640
familiar and like ubiquitous,
right?

1385
01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:40,920
It's everywhere.
However, living in the modern

1386
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:44,280
USA, we have certain traditions
that have become taken for

1387
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:47,200
granted as being required for a
marriage to be legitimate.

1388
01:28:48,280 --> 01:28:51,160
Specifically, I'm talking about
marriage licenses.

1389
01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:55,840
Have you ever considered the
questions, Are marriage licenses

1390
01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:58,640
required for a marriage to be a
legitimate in God's eyes?

1391
01:28:59,320 --> 01:29:02,960
No.
Are marriage licenses an eternal

1392
01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:07,000
principle?
So let's look at a brief let's

1393
01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:09,040
let's brief look into the
history and development of

1394
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:10,760
marriage.
It's kind of surprising if you

1395
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:12,480
haven't studied and and thought
about this before.

1396
01:29:12,480 --> 01:29:16,080
So in the LDS church, at least
since 1890, the standard for

1397
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:18,240
whether or not a marriage is
regarded as legitimate is

1398
01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:20,720
whether a couple possesses a
government issued marriage

1399
01:29:20,720 --> 01:29:22,840
license, at least within the
USA.

1400
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:27,480
Biblically and historically, and
even legally, this is a strange

1401
01:29:27,480 --> 01:29:31,960
and arbitrary definition.
Today, 10 states in the USA,

1402
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:36,480
namely Alabama, Colorado, Iowa,
Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma, Rhode

1403
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:41,320
Island, South Carolina, Texas,
and Utah, don't require a couple

1404
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:43,800
to obtain a marriage license to
be considered illegally and

1405
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:46,440
lawfully married.
In these states, all that is

1406
01:29:46,440 --> 01:29:49,680
legally required for a couple is
to publicly say that they are

1407
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:52,200
married to each other and to
cohabit with each other.

1408
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:55,360
The legal term for such a
marriage is a common law

1409
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:57,960
marriage.
Being born and raised LDS, when

1410
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:00,000
I first learned about this fact
I was shocked.

1411
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:03,120
But if you think about it, it
makes sense.

1412
01:30:03,440 --> 01:30:05,400
Marriage in the family predate
all government.

1413
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:07,600
Adam and Eve didn't get
permission from the government

1414
01:30:07,960 --> 01:30:10,120
or a marriage license.
Like.

1415
01:30:10,840 --> 01:30:13,880
Hello.
OK so you might be thinking so

1416
01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:16,200
if a state issued marriage
license isn't a God ordained

1417
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:19,640
requirement for a legitimate
marriage, surely at least a

1418
01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:21,400
religious ceremony is required
right?

1419
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:25,280
So question, what came first,
the marriage of Adam and Eve or

1420
01:30:25,280 --> 01:30:26,600
the founding of the first
church?

1421
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:29,720
What about cultures that don't
have organized religion involved

1422
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:31,920
with marriage?
Does that make them all guilty

1423
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:35,320
of adultery?
For example, among Native

1424
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:37,680
Americans prior to European
colonization, government was a

1425
01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:39,920
very fluid and uncentralized
concept.

1426
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:43,200
When a man and woman decided to
be married, they didn't ask the

1427
01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:47,400
chief or anybody to be married.
They for permission.

1428
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:50,960
Like they just had religious.
I mean many tribes had religious

1429
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:53,240
ceremonies that surrounded the
marriage to make it publicly

1430
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:56,160
known that the woman and man
were starting a family.

1431
01:30:56,920 --> 01:31:01,680
But if a couple eloped, IE ran
off into the woods and came back

1432
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:04,560
announcing that they were now
married, it was just accepted as

1433
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:07,360
lawfully binding, as if it was
accompanied by the most

1434
01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:10,280
elaborate religious ceremony and
celebration.

1435
01:31:11,120 --> 01:31:15,840
Would these marriages be less
legitimate in God's eyes because

1436
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:18,760
they lacked a government issued
paper, document or

1437
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:21,520
ecclesiastical endorsement?
Absolutely not.

1438
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:26,040
Scripturally speaking, I believe
it's self-evident that what

1439
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:28,720
constitutes a legitimate
marriage in God's sight is along

1440
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:30,640
the same lines as a common law
marriage.

1441
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:34,960
That a woman not be married or
espoused to another living man,

1442
01:31:35,480 --> 01:31:37,520
that she and her husband
consider themselves married to

1443
01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:40,040
each other and are faithful to
another, and that they have

1444
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:43,240
conjugal relations with each
other, nothing more or less.

1445
01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:48,400
Now there is a difference
between marriage and sealing.

1446
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:52,600
OK, so this book is about
polygamy, the marriage.

1447
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:57,760
As Mormons, we know that there
is much more to marriage than

1448
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:00,640
just marriage.
It's it's about the sealing,

1449
01:32:00,720 --> 01:32:05,360
right?
So, but, but, but The thing is,

1450
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:13,760
whether a marriage is sealed or
not doesn't matter if it it

1451
01:32:13,760 --> 01:32:16,760
doesn't change whether or not
it's a marriage or not, right?

1452
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:20,200
So just because a marriage is
not sealed doesn't make it an

1453
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:22,240
adultery.
I mean, you look at all of the

1454
01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:26,920
people who have been married
today and all throughout history

1455
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:29,560
that didn't get it sealed by the
priesthood.

1456
01:32:30,480 --> 01:32:33,200
Are we ready?
Are we really, like serious?

1457
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:36,360
Would would we?
Would anybody seriously consider

1458
01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:39,480
accusing all of those marriages
of being adultery?

1459
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:42,160
No, because they will.
No, right?

1460
01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:47,400
So marriage is marriage if a
marriage, if a monogamous

1461
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:49,720
marriage is a legitimate
marriage and acceptable in God's

1462
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:54,720
sight by those qualifications
outlined above, why not a plural

1463
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:57,760
marriage?
It absolutely is.

1464
01:32:58,160 --> 01:32:59,000
Yeah.
So.

1465
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:03,960
So in Doctrine Covenant section
132, verse 15, the Scripture,

1466
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:06,840
this revelation does clarify
that if a man marry him a wife

1467
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:10,080
in the world and he marry her
not by me nor by my word and the

1468
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:12,840
covenant with her, so long as he
is in the world and she with

1469
01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:14,480
him.
Their covenant and marriage are

1470
01:33:14,480 --> 01:33:16,880
not a force when they are dead
and when they are out of the

1471
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:19,280
world.
Therefore they are not bound by

1472
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:21,000
any law when they are out of the
world.

1473
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:24,480
So if you want a marriage to
last beyond this world into

1474
01:33:24,480 --> 01:33:27,480
eternity, it must meet
additional requirements.

1475
01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:31,240
Just this applies to monogamous
marriages, applies to polygamous

1476
01:33:31,240 --> 01:33:35,320
marriages.
So just like so if if a

1477
01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:38,240
monogamous marriage isn't sealed
for eternity, it doesn't make

1478
01:33:38,240 --> 01:33:40,760
the marriage adulterous.
If a polygamous marriage even

1479
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:43,280
isn't sealed for eternity, it
doesn't make that marriage

1480
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:46,000
relationship adulterous.
Because here's the thing dude.

1481
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:51,320
There are polygamous groups,
Mormon polygamous groups, who

1482
01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:56,600
think that if you get married
not by their dude that you're

1483
01:33:56,600 --> 01:33:58,480
adult, then then you're an
adulterer.

1484
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:03,280
That's like the LDS church would
accuse anybody who is married

1485
01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:06,680
without their priesthood and
authority of adultery.

1486
01:34:07,080 --> 01:34:09,440
There are polygamous and the and
the like.

1487
01:34:09,440 --> 01:34:12,720
What's worse, stupidity or
hypocrisy?

1488
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:19,360
Like I, I think God has just AI
feel like God detests hypocrisy

1489
01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:22,960
above any other type of sin out
there.

1490
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:25,440
Like hypocrisy just really is a
problem.

1491
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:28,880
And so like as fundamentalist,
we have to be real careful that

1492
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:32,280
we don't fall into the same
erroneous thinking as the LDS

1493
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:38,080
church has.
So if so, just moving on and

1494
01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:40,320
some of my notes.
If a marriage is to last beyond

1495
01:34:40,320 --> 01:34:42,560
this world into eternity, it
must be additional requirements

1496
01:34:42,720 --> 01:34:45,320
applies to monogamous and
polygamous marriages.

1497
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:48,960
If a polygamous marriage isn't
sealed for eternity, it doesn't

1498
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:50,600
make that marriage relationship
adulterous.

1499
01:34:50,600 --> 01:34:54,760
So, so if a monogamous couple,
one is faithful to each other,

1500
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:59,600
two, builds a celestial quality
marriage relationship, and three

1501
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:02,440
desires and is worthy to receive
the sealing ordinance by proper

1502
01:35:02,440 --> 01:35:06,000
authority, yet hasn't had that
opportunity to receive the

1503
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:08,360
ordinance.
Maybe they were raised Baptist

1504
01:35:08,360 --> 01:35:14,680
or Catholic or whatever, or
maybe they just live in a group

1505
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:17,280
that has lost the priesthood.
You know, I think that's a very

1506
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:21,560
real thing too.
Would the God you worship

1507
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:24,760
deprive that couple, that
monocamous couple of the

1508
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:27,440
blessing of eternal marriage and
damned them to singlehood, apart

1509
01:35:27,440 --> 01:35:31,040
from each other for eternity?
Or would the God that you

1510
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:35,040
worship provide them with that
opportunity, either in this life

1511
01:35:35,040 --> 01:35:39,280
or the next, to comply with the
ordinances if they're worthy in

1512
01:35:39,280 --> 01:35:44,440
every other way?
So that's applied to A and the

1513
01:35:44,440 --> 01:35:48,080
crux of the matter, and this is
maybe primarily directed more to

1514
01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:51,480
the LDS audience here.
If a polygamous man and his

1515
01:35:51,480 --> 01:35:55,720
wives are not faithful to each
other, one, or excuse me, are

1516
01:35:55,720 --> 01:35:59,160
faithful to each other two,
build a celestial quality

1517
01:35:59,160 --> 01:36:02,000
marriage relationship among each
other.

1518
01:36:03,440 --> 01:36:06,240
Three desire and are worthy to
receive the ceiling ordinance by

1519
01:36:06,240 --> 01:36:09,480
proper authority 4 but yet
haven't had that opportunity to

1520
01:36:09,480 --> 01:36:11,720
receive that ordinance by proper
authority in this lifetime.

1521
01:36:13,040 --> 01:36:16,280
Because even if you're LDS, if
you think that it has to have

1522
01:36:16,320 --> 01:36:18,440
have the proper priesthood
authority to be to be

1523
01:36:18,440 --> 01:36:22,360
legitimate, it still doesn't
make it.

1524
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:28,080
Would the God that you worship
deprive that plural family of

1525
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:31,000
the blessing of eternal life and
damned them to singlehood apart

1526
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:34,840
from each other for eternity?
Or would God provide them with

1527
01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:38,320
an opportunity either in this
life or the next to comply with

1528
01:36:38,320 --> 01:36:40,400
the ordinances if they're worthy
in every other way?

1529
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:45,720
So a plural marriage
relationship, even if it's not

1530
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:48,560
sealed by proper authority or or
entered into with a priesthood

1531
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:52,040
ordinance, it can't be called
adultery by any scriptural or

1532
01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:57,000
rational definition of the term.
I, I just, I think I've just

1533
01:36:57,000 --> 01:37:01,480
proven that.
And there's a scripture in the,

1534
01:37:01,480 --> 01:37:05,520
in the Old Testament, Exodus
chapter 20, it well, of course

1535
01:37:05,520 --> 01:37:07,400
we know the 10 commandments.
Thou shalt not bear false

1536
01:37:07,400 --> 01:37:10,200
witness against thy neighbor.
But then in Deuteronomy, it

1537
01:37:10,200 --> 01:37:14,640
actually spells out that if you
make false so it and the judges

1538
01:37:14,640 --> 01:37:17,120
shall make diligent inquisition.
And behold, if the witness be a

1539
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:19,800
false witness and have testified
falsely against his brother,

1540
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:23,640
then shall you do unto him as he
had thought to have done unto

1541
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:27,080
his brother.
So shall thou put the evil away

1542
01:37:27,080 --> 01:37:29,600
from among you.
That's Deuteronomy chapter 19,

1543
01:37:29,600 --> 01:37:34,040
verses 18 and 19.
OK, so what's?

1544
01:37:34,120 --> 01:37:36,840
So basically, if you make a
false accusation, what's the

1545
01:37:37,080 --> 01:37:40,720
penalty?
It's whatever the penalty was

1546
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:43,640
going to be for the sin that
you're making the accusation.

1547
01:37:44,440 --> 01:37:46,040
Right.
What is the penalty?

1548
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:48,040
What is the biblical penalty for
adultery?

1549
01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:53,560
Or, yeah, for adultery.
That man that committeth

1550
01:37:53,560 --> 01:37:56,120
adultery with another man's
wife, even he that committeth

1551
01:37:56,120 --> 01:37:58,520
adultery with his neighbor's
wife, the adulterer and the

1552
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:00,800
adulteress shall surely be put
to death.

1553
01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:06,320
So the biblical penalty for
adultery is death, and therefore

1554
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:09,320
the biblical penalty for falsely
accusing anyone of adultery is

1555
01:38:09,320 --> 01:38:14,440
death for the accusers.
So this is a very serious thing.

1556
01:38:16,280 --> 01:38:19,160
So of course we don't.
I'm not suggesting that we, you

1557
01:38:19,160 --> 01:38:22,200
know, start killing anybody who
falsely accuses people of

1558
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:25,480
committing adultery, but I mean,
it's and our governments like

1559
01:38:25,480 --> 01:38:27,960
that just would not fly.
Our governments don't enforce

1560
01:38:27,960 --> 01:38:35,120
the biblical law, but I believe
that God is interested in our

1561
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:38,280
day and he's watching.
And, and so even if our

1562
01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:42,000
government doesn't enforce the
biblical laws, I think that

1563
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:46,240
they're there for a reason.
And Christ himself warned that

1564
01:38:46,240 --> 01:38:48,760
with whatever judgement you
judge, you shall be judged.

1565
01:38:49,080 --> 01:38:54,560
Matthews Chapter 7, verse 2.
So in other words, wise people

1566
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:57,960
would be very reluctant to judge
the relationship choices of

1567
01:38:58,240 --> 01:39:03,280
sincere consenting adults.
And that goes for LDS Mormons.

1568
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:07,440
That goes for, you know,
fundamentalists who think that

1569
01:39:07,440 --> 01:39:11,440
only their guys priesthood is
legitimate.

1570
01:39:12,440 --> 01:39:14,360
Like this just goes all the way
across.

1571
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:23,160
The last thing I want to cover
is Jacob chapter 2, because this

1572
01:39:23,160 --> 01:39:29,960
is the only scriptural place
that that, that this idea of

1573
01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:37,520
monogamy is, is even a thing.
So it's interesting that the the

1574
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:41,720
word chastity is very rare.
It it only appears like three

1575
01:39:41,720 --> 01:39:45,360
times in the New Testament in
the King James Version from our

1576
01:39:45,400 --> 01:39:49,360
our modern kind of puritanical
world Western worldview, the

1577
01:39:49,360 --> 01:39:52,640
word chastity is almost
exclusively tied to the sexual

1578
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:54,640
connotation of virginity or
celibacy.

1579
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:58,160
But from a Hebrew perspective,
the Hebrew worldview has much

1580
01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:05,560
more context and nuance.
So the the the in verse 27 of

1581
01:40:05,560 --> 01:40:09,440
Jacob chapter 2, we find that
the restriction from practicing

1582
01:40:09,440 --> 01:40:12,560
polygamy was actually limited to
the people present at the

1583
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:14,200
meeting where Jacob is
addressing them.

1584
01:40:14,800 --> 01:40:17,600
Because he says, But wherefore,
my brethren, hear me hearken to

1585
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:19,480
the word of the Lord?
There shall not any man among

1586
01:40:19,480 --> 01:40:23,080
you have, save it be one wife
and concubines.

1587
01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:25,400
He shall have none.
So to apply this Scripture

1588
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:28,960
beyond this intended scope is
just untextually supported.

1589
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:34,040
In verse 30, Jacob includes the
caveat.

1590
01:40:34,440 --> 01:40:36,800
For if I will, saith the Lord of
hosts, phrase up seed unto me, I

1591
01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:39,640
will command my people to live
it, otherwise they shall hearken

1592
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:41,880
unto these things.
Can you think of a single other

1593
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:44,440
commandment God's ever given
where he's included a caveat or

1594
01:40:44,440 --> 01:40:47,200
exception?
Like the fact he did so in this

1595
01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:52,480
case is pretty much proof that
monogamy is not an eternal

1596
01:40:52,480 --> 01:40:54,400
Prince of truth or a natural
state.

1597
01:40:54,400 --> 01:40:57,680
It was a commandment specific to
this limited group of Nephites,

1598
01:40:58,000 --> 01:41:00,720
and it was required for them to
obey it until it was rescinded,

1599
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:02,760
IE until God commanded
otherwise.

1600
01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:07,040
Right?
Also also worth mentioning in

1601
01:41:07,040 --> 01:41:12,920
this verse chapter 30 if for
anybody who might have had the

1602
01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:14,920
thinking like I mean this is how
I was raised.

1603
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:17,680
I was raised LDS and and so
anyone who thinks that

1604
01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:21,280
complegamy is the same thing as
adultery unless commanded by

1605
01:41:21,280 --> 01:41:23,400
God.
Let's try a word replacement and

1606
01:41:23,400 --> 01:41:26,200
see what happens for if I will
say if the Lord of hosts raise

1607
01:41:26,200 --> 01:41:29,640
up seed unto me, I will command
my people to commit adultery.

1608
01:41:31,440 --> 01:41:33,480
Otherwise they shall harden
these things.

1609
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:36,200
Like sometimes God can give
commandments that defy our

1610
01:41:36,200 --> 01:41:38,200
limited wisdom and and
understanding.

1611
01:41:39,120 --> 01:41:42,400
But can you point to a single
instance in all of scripture

1612
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:45,680
where God commanded a man to
violate a moral absolute?

1613
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:50,640
Adultery is a moral absolute.
The God of Abraham, Jacob don't

1614
01:41:50,880 --> 01:41:53,680
doesn't command anyone to
violate a moral absolute.

1615
01:41:53,680 --> 01:41:57,440
Therefore, Jacob too actually
proves that monogamy is not a

1616
01:41:57,440 --> 01:42:02,400
moral absolute.
Very good, I like it.

1617
01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:09,240
And then the last thing point on
this is that repeatedly

1618
01:42:09,240 --> 01:42:10,960
throughout the Book of Mormon,
the authors note that the

1619
01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:12,760
Nephites obeyed the Law of
Moses.

1620
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:16,160
What almost all modern Mormons
forget is the fact that the Law

1621
01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:19,240
of Moses requires polygamy under
certain circumstances.

1622
01:42:19,680 --> 01:42:22,000
Right.
The Jacobs restriction of the

1623
01:42:22,000 --> 01:42:25,640
specific group of Nephites to
monogamy is a singular anomaly,

1624
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:29,120
an exception to the rule of
polygamy, which was the natural

1625
01:42:29,120 --> 01:42:31,840
state for all other people who
live the Law of Moses.

1626
01:42:32,360 --> 01:42:35,640
Interesting.
Oh, that's a juicy nugget to

1627
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:38,200
chew on.
You know, because I never made,

1628
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:41,360
I never made the connection with
polygamy to the law of Moses.

1629
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:45,720
But they are instructed to keep
that many times in the Book of

1630
01:42:45,720 --> 01:42:48,640
Mormon.
And that would be, that would be

1631
01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:52,320
one of those things.
Yeah, until of course, until it

1632
01:42:52,320 --> 01:42:55,480
Christ comes and then it says
the law of Moses is done away in

1633
01:42:55,480 --> 01:42:57,600
me and it should not expedite
you should live anymore.

1634
01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:02,040
But up to that point, these guys
were some of the best Jews in

1635
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:05,680
in, you know, outside of Judea,
right?

1636
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:08,560
You know that they were very
faithful at living the law of

1637
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:13,680
Moses.
Yeah, so puts a new connotation

1638
01:43:13,680 --> 01:43:15,480
on it to those who like to use
Jacob too.

1639
01:43:15,480 --> 01:43:19,160
To beat, beat Go got plural
marriage over the head.

1640
01:43:19,720 --> 01:43:21,360
Well, and the other thing I
don't have.

1641
01:43:21,480 --> 01:43:23,040
Maybe I can find the reference
real quick.

1642
01:43:23,040 --> 01:43:29,320
Do you remember what Lehi says?
The the point when God LED

1643
01:43:29,320 --> 01:43:31,920
Lehigh and his family out of
Jerusalem?

1644
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:35,640
You remember why?
Do I remember what?

1645
01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:37,440
Sorry.
What, Why?

1646
01:43:37,680 --> 01:43:42,080
Why did Lehigh say God was
instructing him to take his

1647
01:43:42,080 --> 01:43:45,840
family out of Jerusalem?
Wasn't it because he was going

1648
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:49,080
to be killed?
Well, that was definitely part

1649
01:43:49,080 --> 01:43:51,160
of it.
But this the the verse and I'll

1650
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:55,280
when I say I think you'll
recognize it, he says to raise

1651
01:43:55,280 --> 01:43:57,520
up a righteous seed.
Oh, that's right.

1652
01:43:57,600 --> 01:44:01,600
OK, yeah, Yep.
And what?

1653
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:04,040
Does Jacob chapter 2 verse 30
say?

1654
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:10,280
To raise up a righteous seed.
If I will say that the Lord of

1655
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:12,600
hosts raise up seed unto me, I
will command my people,

1656
01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:14,160
otherwise they shall hearken
unto these things.

1657
01:44:19,080 --> 01:44:21,880
Yeah, no, no, it's definitely
there.

1658
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:25,320
I did an episode with Jacob the
Dream that really, really

1659
01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:30,360
showed, you know it, there's a
lot of implications there that

1660
01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:34,480
polygamy was going on in the
Book of Mormon as we should

1661
01:44:34,480 --> 01:44:39,040
expect to see, right?
Even some stuff that that showed

1662
01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:41,600
that Lehigh was most likely a
polygamist.

1663
01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:44,280
I can't remember what those were
off the top of my head.

1664
01:44:44,280 --> 01:44:45,720
I have to go back and listen
but.

1665
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:48,640
So I, I can tell you, I can tell
you that.

1666
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:54,080
So Lehigh, remember when the,
they're on the boat, they're,

1667
01:44:54,120 --> 01:44:59,680
they're coming across this ocean
and they like Lehman and Lehmi

1668
01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:06,280
will just go stupid and they tie
the you know, Nephi and, and,

1669
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:14,440
and, and Nephi is describing his
mother and it says and my mother

1670
01:45:15,280 --> 01:45:19,360
and he says my parents.
So referring to Lehigh and

1671
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:23,600
Soraya were weighed down with
their Gray hairs almost unto

1672
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:26,080
death, right?
It was, it was, it was.

1673
01:45:26,160 --> 01:45:31,720
And and then it says, and Jacob
and Joseph, their mother did

1674
01:45:31,720 --> 01:45:34,960
suffer exceedingly.
That's right, because she, you

1675
01:45:34,960 --> 01:45:39,080
couldn't give them milk to
nurse, right?

1676
01:45:39,480 --> 01:45:42,560
Like, like that's kind of that's
pretty.

1677
01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:45,440
I mean, it doesn't say it, but
it's pretty darn.

1678
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:47,400
It's pretty darn conclusive,
isn't it?

1679
01:45:47,880 --> 01:45:50,760
Yeah.
No, no, I think it, I think it's

1680
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:54,000
there throughout, certainly in
Mormonism, obviously more than

1681
01:45:54,000 --> 01:45:56,840
132.
It's in, it's in the Old

1682
01:45:56,840 --> 01:45:59,120
Testament, it's in the New
Testament.

1683
01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:06,240
It's it's it really is kind of
ubiquitous within the the

1684
01:46:07,160 --> 01:46:11,960
Christian Hebraic tradition,
whether we want it to be or not.

1685
01:46:12,320 --> 01:46:16,960
It's only our our our modern
sensibilities, I think that make

1686
01:46:16,960 --> 01:46:19,360
it seem so icky.
Yeah.

1687
01:46:20,280 --> 01:46:27,880
And I again, there's there's.
So much good like by their

1688
01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:33,560
fruits you shall know them.
And so, yeah, Warren Jeffs, his

1689
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:36,480
fruits expose him as an evil
SOB, right?

1690
01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:42,080
And but the sad thing is because
he was because everybody doesn't

1691
01:46:42,080 --> 01:46:44,320
like polygamy already.
And he was do practicing

1692
01:46:44,320 --> 01:46:49,120
polygamy, it kind of gives
everybody a pass to equate.

1693
01:46:49,720 --> 01:46:53,800
And so like he did such a
disservice to to truth and to

1694
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:58,120
righteousness.
And, and, and the other thing is

1695
01:46:58,120 --> 01:47:06,360
with like with these you, you
look at a guy.

1696
01:47:06,600 --> 01:47:10,000
Well, I mean you and there's
other guys that we know.

1697
01:47:10,040 --> 01:47:14,960
I'm not going to drop any names,
but I know, I, I personally know

1698
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:18,720
dozens.
Some of the best men alive

1699
01:47:18,720 --> 01:47:21,640
breathe, drawing breath,
breathing oxygen right now.

1700
01:47:22,080 --> 01:47:24,240
And they are living this
principle.

1701
01:47:24,760 --> 01:47:29,360
And so you look by their fruits,
you shall know them well, Yeah.

1702
01:47:29,720 --> 01:47:33,920
And if the fruit is good, let's
let's give credit where it's due

1703
01:47:33,920 --> 01:47:38,240
And, and so like these are these
are really important things to

1704
01:47:38,240 --> 01:47:43,000
consider.
Joseph Smith in he gave a speech

1705
01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:46,520
on August 27th, 1843.
He says those who limit the

1706
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:49,520
designs of God as concerted by
the Grand Council of Heaven

1707
01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:51,440
cannot obtain the knowledge of
God.

1708
01:47:51,920 --> 01:47:54,920
And I do not know, but I may say
they will drink in the damnation

1709
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:57,880
of their souls.
All those who are disposed to

1710
01:47:57,880 --> 01:48:00,840
set up stakes for the Almighty
will come short of the glory of

1711
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:04,120
God to become a joint heir of
the air of the Son.

1712
01:48:04,120 --> 01:48:06,160
A man must put away all his
traditions.

1713
01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:12,320
We look at so many traditions
like till marriage, till death

1714
01:48:12,320 --> 01:48:14,880
do us part.
You look at the other traditions

1715
01:48:14,960 --> 01:48:21,400
of people infallibility and you
look and like as Mormons, we're

1716
01:48:21,680 --> 01:48:26,400
like, there's a temptation to be
like, man, those guys are so

1717
01:48:26,800 --> 01:48:30,840
dumb and so ignorant and ill
informed and all this and we,

1718
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:35,120
and, and yet what traditions
have we not given up?

1719
01:48:35,640 --> 01:48:40,240
And I would say this tradition
of marriage is a huge, massive,

1720
01:48:40,240 --> 01:48:45,480
massive one.
We need to look at, we need to

1721
01:48:45,480 --> 01:48:49,200
revisit our traditions,
including how, what that what's

1722
01:48:49,200 --> 01:48:55,680
a legitimate marriage look like.
And we need to just realize that

1723
01:48:55,680 --> 01:48:59,720
these are the things that God
expects of us.

1724
01:49:01,400 --> 01:49:04,640
And if we want to progress and
be like my God, we have to put

1725
01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:07,760
away all of the things that are
ungod like within us.

1726
01:49:08,360 --> 01:49:14,320
Absolutely.
I'm a guy who likes living in

1727
01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:17,440
the time I'm living in
genuinely, right.

1728
01:49:20,040 --> 01:49:23,920
I enjoyed moving without pulling
a hand cart or riding in the

1729
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:26,240
back of a wagon.
I really did.

1730
01:49:26,680 --> 01:49:29,680
Air conditioning is awesome,
right?

1731
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:37,520
Having said that, sometimes we
can think that we're so far

1732
01:49:37,520 --> 01:49:42,560
advanced that we trick ourselves
out of the most basic of things,

1733
01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:48,200
right?
I've always said having as many

1734
01:49:48,200 --> 01:49:53,280
kids as I've had, I firmly
believe you could stick a group

1735
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:56,480
of boys and a group of girls on
an island and there's

1736
01:49:56,480 --> 01:50:00,520
predictable outcomes.
The girls will pick flowers and

1737
01:50:00,520 --> 01:50:03,000
the boys will hit each other
with sticks and laugh.

1738
01:50:03,840 --> 01:50:06,640
That's just all there is to.
It and maybe throw rocks at the

1739
01:50:06,640 --> 01:50:10,760
girls.
Right, yes, yes, by violin.

1740
01:50:11,440 --> 01:50:15,440
Right, right, right.
It's, it's just kind of a, a

1741
01:50:15,440 --> 01:50:22,240
natural outgrowth of, of things,
but also our, our, the way we

1742
01:50:22,240 --> 01:50:28,280
conduct our families, the way
we, we define marriage.

1743
01:50:30,920 --> 01:50:37,960
We're trying to, we're trying to
put in a square peg into a round

1744
01:50:37,960 --> 01:50:42,680
hole and it doesn't fit and it
doesn't work and it creates

1745
01:50:42,680 --> 01:50:45,840
anxiety and it creates all sorts
of problems.

1746
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:48,920
And again, I'm not saying that
plural marriage is for

1747
01:50:48,920 --> 01:50:51,480
everybody.
So if, if you have those

1748
01:50:51,480 --> 01:50:55,160
feelings, I'm not saying that
that plural marriage is going to

1749
01:50:55,160 --> 01:50:58,920
solve all those.
And if you don't feel that call,

1750
01:50:59,280 --> 01:51:02,640
I'll be the first one to say
don't do it right?

1751
01:51:02,640 --> 01:51:05,080
Don't do it.
If you don't feel called to it,

1752
01:51:05,200 --> 01:51:08,680
do not do this.
And if your, if your first

1753
01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:11,480
marriage isn't healthy, do not
do this.

1754
01:51:11,800 --> 01:51:15,200
Adding, adding another marriage
thinking we'll fix the first

1755
01:51:15,200 --> 01:51:17,760
one.
That is dumb.

1756
01:51:17,960 --> 01:51:20,640
I, I have no, no other words for
it, right?

1757
01:51:21,280 --> 01:51:29,440
But for those that do it, it is
a call back in some ways to

1758
01:51:29,440 --> 01:51:34,680
certain, I don't know, factory
default settings.

1759
01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:41,800
And, and for those of us who
feel that, I think it's

1760
01:51:41,800 --> 01:51:45,600
incumbent upon us that are
living it or are in favor of it

1761
01:51:46,240 --> 01:51:50,040
to, to, to be a little more bold
and just saying, you know what?

1762
01:51:50,040 --> 01:51:56,200
My family is every bit as
legitimate as yours and stand

1763
01:51:56,200 --> 01:51:58,800
your ground on that.
Nobody can take that from you.

1764
01:51:59,280 --> 01:52:03,000
They can try, they can rail.
I mean, they can do all sorts

1765
01:52:03,000 --> 01:52:05,760
of, you know, talking and
whatever.

1766
01:52:06,240 --> 01:52:10,520
But the end of the day, if it
makes you happy, I mean, that's

1767
01:52:10,520 --> 01:52:13,680
what it's about.
And I believe it's divinely

1768
01:52:13,680 --> 01:52:17,240
sanctioned.
It's certainly been a blessing

1769
01:52:17,240 --> 01:52:21,040
in my life.
I, I'll be honest, as a guy, I

1770
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:25,160
pray every day and I work every
day that I might be worthy of my

1771
01:52:25,160 --> 01:52:27,600
wife.
And that's just the truth of it.

1772
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:33,480
And if there's one common thing
that I've seen is that the guys

1773
01:52:33,480 --> 01:52:38,120
who do this and do it well often
kind of feel some similar

1774
01:52:38,120 --> 01:52:43,760
feelings.
And it takes work, but it's

1775
01:52:43,760 --> 01:52:48,120
worth it 100%.
But anyway, Taylor, what do you

1776
01:52:48,120 --> 01:52:51,680
got, man?
Oh bro, that was, I think

1777
01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:53,320
enough.
There's Part 2.

1778
01:52:53,400 --> 01:52:57,360
I'm tired, it's late.
I think I've said my piece.

1779
01:52:57,360 --> 01:53:01,640
I just, I guess I hope that it,
you know, it's CS Lewis's like,

1780
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:06,480
you know, good logic must exist,
if for no other reason than to

1781
01:53:06,520 --> 01:53:09,200
answer bad logic.
I think there's a lot of bad

1782
01:53:09,280 --> 01:53:15,040
logic out there maligning and
just unjustly vilifying this

1783
01:53:15,040 --> 01:53:18,640
sacred and honorable practice.
And so I hope that what we've

1784
01:53:18,640 --> 01:53:25,720
covered tonight and, and and
Part 1 can help those of us who

1785
01:53:25,720 --> 01:53:28,560
do have this testimony to be,
like you said, a little more

1786
01:53:28,560 --> 01:53:34,960
bold and, and not and to hold
our heads high and to just

1787
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:38,240
embrace it, own it.
This is this is our gospel.

1788
01:53:38,240 --> 01:53:42,640
This is this is what we claim to
have a testimony is truth of

1789
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:44,720
God.
So let's start acting like it.

1790
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:49,800
Let's not be wussy about it.
Absolutely dude.

1791
01:53:49,840 --> 01:53:51,480
Good stuff as always.
Let's.

1792
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:55,600
Let's bless as many women and
children as we are reasonably

1793
01:53:55,600 --> 01:53:56,920
capable of.
That's right.

1794
01:53:58,400 --> 01:54:00,640
Absolutely, dude.
Good stuff.

1795
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:04,200
Name of the book again was The
Great Omission by Clyde

1796
01:54:04,280 --> 01:54:05,480
Pilkington.
Is that right?

1797
01:54:06,280 --> 01:54:10,120
That is correct.
And it's available on Amazon or

1798
01:54:10,120 --> 01:54:11,800
you can just Google.
I think there's if you wanted

1799
01:54:11,800 --> 01:54:13,800
bulk orders, there's that
available as well.

1800
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:18,520
So Clyde Elkington, Junior.
Yep, and I and I got a link on

1801
01:54:18,520 --> 01:54:22,200
the first episode to the Amazon
page, so I'll I'll throw that on

1802
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:23,960
there.
Again, I've never met the man,

1803
01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:25,480
but he's got to thank me at some
point.

1804
01:54:25,480 --> 01:54:28,360
Just a little letter saying
thanks for pimping my book bro.

1805
01:54:28,720 --> 01:54:31,160
That's all so.
Hey, we need to work that out in

1806
01:54:31,160 --> 01:54:33,080
advance, Dave.
What were we thinking?

1807
01:54:33,360 --> 01:54:37,080
I know, I know.
I mean, look, I mean, don't get

1808
01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:41,840
me wrong, this podcast has
netted about 300 bucks.

1809
01:54:41,840 --> 01:54:45,160
I'm just saying, you know,
Clyde, you, if you're out there,

1810
01:54:45,160 --> 01:54:47,680
if you're listening, help a
brother out.

1811
01:54:47,680 --> 01:54:50,080
That's all I'm saying.
You, you won't.

1812
01:54:50,720 --> 01:54:53,800
But you know, really if, if, if
I could meet the guy, just shake

1813
01:54:53,800 --> 01:54:56,680
his hand because I think it's a
great, a great book that he's

1814
01:54:56,680 --> 01:54:58,960
put together.
And, and dude, he did his

1815
01:54:58,960 --> 01:55:00,800
homework, right.
All those footnotes.

1816
01:55:01,400 --> 01:55:05,280
Dude did his homework.
So anyway, all right, dude.

1817
01:55:05,320 --> 01:55:08,320
Well, that was good stuff.
Oh yeah.

1818
01:55:09,080 --> 01:55:10,360
All right.
Well, thank you soon.

1819
01:55:11,040 --> 01:55:12,160
All right.
Bye everybody.

1820
01:55:42,360 --> 01:55:42,440
The.