Episode #153: An LDS Missionary Converts To Discovers Orthodox Mormon Doctrine W/Mason Vogel

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So I started a series of
episodes about people who have

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found their way into Mormon
fundamentalism, and that started

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with a conversation with Adam
Posey.

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Now, that episode got a lot of
lights and a lot of reviews, so

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we're going to move on to Part
2.

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Quick question, what happens
when an LDS missionary discovers

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the forgotten teachings of the
restoration?

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Well, today I have Mason Vogel
on the podcast to talk about

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just that.
We talk about Mason's ties and

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Mormonism, his conversion to the
LDS church, his time as a

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missionary for the church, his
departure from his mission and

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the church, and where and what's
going on in his life today in

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his faith journey.
That's next on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Mason, what's going on?
I'm doing pretty good.

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I'm doing pretty good.
So for for anyone who's watched

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the podcast lately, especially,
you'll notice that I always have

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Mason on now and Mason is
somebody who I got in contact

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with.
Oh gosh, probably what now?

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Year.
Year and a half ago?

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Thereabout.
And he's he's got a pretty

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fascinating story and and this
story will explain how it is he

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got onto the podcast.
But dude, everything going good

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for you?
It's been going great.

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You know, I, I feel like, like
I'm in a good place.

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Good, good.
That's, that's good to hear.

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I mean, we're we're going to
talk about your story tonight,

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right.
We're just going to kind of

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figure out kind of a little bit
about who you are and then how

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you ended up talking to a a
fundamentalist where 10s of

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thousands of people can can hear
you.

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So I mean it, it should make for
an interesting conversation.

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But so Mason, real quick, let's
talk about kind of your your

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upbringing and stuff, right?
Where were you right now?

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You live in Tennessee.
Were you born there?

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No Sir, I was born in American
Fork, UT.

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OK, All right.
So how how long did you live?

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There.
I didn't live there for very

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long.
I lived there till I was about

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four years old.
Then I moved down to Tennessee

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and then I moved a lot from
there.

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So I moved about once every two
years or so just because my dad

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was searching for.
Hang tight.

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What now?
Were your parents Mormon?

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Yes, they are Jack Mormons.
OK.

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All right.
So it was it just a thing of

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like your parents wanted out of
Utah so they weren't necessarily

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in love with with Mormon culture
anymore?

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That came to be part of it
later, but their main motivation

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for moving at the time was just
that there were better career

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opportunities for my father
outside.

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OK.
And what year would this have

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been?
Right around the recession,

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2008, 2009.
OK, all right, cool.

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So so you then go to Tennessee,
but then you bounce around

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Tennessee.
Is that what happened?

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How many places did you say you
were living?

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6 or. 7 I mostly like central
Tennessee, but I also moved up

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to southern Kentucky for a
little bit.

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OK, So what?
What kind of towns would be

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close to central Tennessee that
people might recognize?

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Well, towns just outside of
Nashville like Murfreesboro,

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Knoxville, not Knoxville.
I don't know why I said

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Knoxville, Hendersonville, those
sorts of areas.

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OK, all right.
And growing up, was the gospel

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on your radar at all?
Were your parents teaching you

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anything?
Were you going to church at all?

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Anything like that?
I There were some brief glimpses

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of going to church right at We
went maybe one Sunday every two

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months.
It wasn't like a very consistent

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thing and you know, there there
is a general attitude that it

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was more of a chore than than
something that was genuinely

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uplifting.
OK, all right, so.

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And do you remember feeling that
way too, as your mom and dad are

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loading into the car?
Like, come on, we're off to

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church.
Yes, yeah, especially getting

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all dressed up.
I was not a fan when I was

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getting.
Up, right.

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So growing up, like until you
turn about whatever age, we'll

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say 1415, how familiar were you
with Mormonism?

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Not very familiar at all, not
not even with like the basic

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premises.
OK, All right.

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So when does the when does
Mormonism kind of start to hit

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your radar?
Seriously.

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So that happens got kind of like
you said about when I was 1314,

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there's a lot of stuff going on
in my personal life and I, I had

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already developed kind of a, a
philosophy of, of family, right?

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So I, I believed that family
was, was how we were tied back

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into the generations moving
forward and backward.

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And I I had a strong reverence
from my ancestors and.

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Real quick, where's that
reverence come from 'cause if

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your parents aren't really
steeped in the gospel, it's kind

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of a, it's a very Mormon thing,
right?

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And so if the gospel is not kind
of front and center in your

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home, where, where's that coming
from?

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Well, at the time I was also
very, very like, almost

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obsessively online, right?
Like to to an unhealthy degree.

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And I, I'd always been a bit of
a thinker.

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And so I, I was delving into
these like philosophies, right,

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political philosophies, secular
philosophies, even even to some

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degree religious philosophies.
And I had just, I, I had come to

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the reasonable conclusion that
that's not that, that just made

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the most sense to me.
OK, All right.

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So that that kind of explains
where that comes from.

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So as you start to move forward,
then again, 1415 years old, how

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does Mormonism hit your radar?
You talked about how found you

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know the generations of your
family forward and back are are

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important to you, but but what
what happens from there?

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Well, I, I didn't really have it
on my radar until for one

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Christmas Day, my parents bought
me ADNA kit test, right?

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So I took the little tube, I
spit in it and I waited about a

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month for the results.
But when I got it back, you

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know, there was a lot of stuff
that I expected, like English,

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Scottish, you know, some, some
dramatic bits as well.

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I delved into the history,
right?

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Because I, I, like I said, I had
that reverence from my father's

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and I wanted to know what they
did, who they were.

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And there came a point when
researching the history where I,

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I just came to the conclusion
that there's no possible way

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this could have happened without
divine intervention.

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And so I, I made the
intellectual decision, thinking

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mostly with my mind to just
look, look into the religious

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aspects.
And then from there, there

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developed a lot of spiritual
confirmation, you know, reading

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the Book of Mormon, I, I thought
it was some of the most powerful

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words that I've ever read.
And I especially reading over

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the Doctrine Covenants like I, I
there were some summer nights

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where I was up till like 4 O
clock in the morning just

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studying the the lengthier more
theologically dense chapters in

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the Doctrine Covenants like
Section 132.

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So are is this with the
missionaries or are you doing

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this on your own?
Oh, I'm doing it on my own.

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OK.
All right, all right.

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I was just curious about that.
So you're taking some serious

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initiative on your own and then
are you just reading all this

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online?
Did you go buy a quad somewhere?

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I mean, what'd you do so.
I actually had a quad that was

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given to me when I was about 3
years old that had just

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travelled in this storage bin
from house to house to house to

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house.
And while all this is going on,

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I, I dig it up and I, I find
like I, I just, I, I found the

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quad and I started reading that
one.

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OK, all right.
So So what happens from there?

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Well, to tell you the truth,
it's, it's kind of interesting,

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right?
Because when, when you're

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studying without the
missionaries, you kind of cut

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are confronted with, with a lot
of this counter history to, to

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the correlated history of the
church a lot quicker, right.

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You come into contact with like,
oh, Brigham Young taught that

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Adam is God.
Oh, Joseph Smith was a

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polygamist.
This, this and that the

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secession crisis was, was
something that I looked into

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pretty thoroughly because my 5th
grade grandfather was one of one

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of the claimants, Alfie's
Cutler.

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He, he, his church still
survives today over in Missouri.

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And so I, I looked into a lot of
that.

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But eventually, you know, I, I
came to the conclusion that

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Brigham Young was, was the
proper successor to Joseph

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Smith.
And as I was reading the Journal

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of Discourses one night, because
that was also something that I

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was doing, there is a speech
that he gave where he talked

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about how the descendants of the
people that he's speaking to,

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they're going to go back to the
lands of their fathers and to go

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get rich and be wealthy and to
live lives that are more, more

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like the Gentiles around them,
right?

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But that the work that they
were, that they were doing was

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so important that their children
will remember the gospel and

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then grow up to be Saints again.
And I, I thought about that and

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I was like, if he wasn't a
prophet, if he wasn't the true

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successor to Joseph, he wouldn't
have been able to describe my

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condition so perfectly, you
know?

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Right, right.
And so when, when you discover

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that that you have this
ancestry, right, that goes back

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and then you, you, you talk
about this thing about their

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kids coming back, right?
Essentially, do you kind of feel

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like, oh man, is that me?
Is that kind of what happens?

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What was that like for you?
What does that feel like when,

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when you started making that
connection that maybe I'm, I'm

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part of this, this, this thing
that, that Brigham talked about?

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It, it felt so it, it felt
affirming, you know, it felt

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like all the things that I had
been studying wasn't in vain.

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It felt like I I was part of
something that was far greater

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than myself as well, you know?
OK, so it wasn't so much a fact

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of, you know, I'm super special
or whatever, but it was that

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feeling of I'm this is this is
bigger than me and I've got to

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to really follow this out to to
what it is.

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Yeah, I have.
AI have a responsibility, you

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know.
Right, right.

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OK, so So what happens next?
You, you have this kind of

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epiphany that hey, all this is
true, but you haven't even

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00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,120
started studying with the
missionaries yet.

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Though, So that's, that's where
the story gets kind of

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00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,680
interesting, right?
Because as I mentioned, I'm, I'm

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reading the Journal of
Discourses and at the same time,

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00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,360
I'm kind of keeping up to date
with stuff that's going on in

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the church.
I acknowledge that the church

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has departed from what it's
supposed to be.

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00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:13,360
Right, 'cause you, you, I don't
think you can historically say

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while being intellectually
honest that the, the church is

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00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:20,480
the same then as it is today,
'cause that's just not true.

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00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,200
You know, there's just so many
ordinances that aren't really

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practiced anymore.
The endowment has been mutilated

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00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,680
beyond what what my ancestors
would have recognized.

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00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,080
You know, if, if my ancestors
went through an endowment

225
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,200
session now, they probably
wouldn't realize that it was the

226
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,480
same ordinance, right?
And there's, there's just so

227
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,120
many continuity issues.
But that's besides the point.

228
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:56,160
And in the middle of all of
that, my, my mother actually

229
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,040
invites me to go take a trip to
Utah with her.

230
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,480
And I was, I just turned 16 at
the time.

231
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:10,040
And so I, I agreed and we went
to the airport and we flew over

232
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:15,520
to Salt Lake City and we drove
over to the UNC basin.

233
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:22,800
And during that drive, I just,
I, I felt the harrowing voice of

234
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,760
the Lord speak to me.
And I, I remember this day, I,

235
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,400
I, I felt a feeling.
And then I, I heard words as

236
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:38,320
vocal as I'm speaking them now.
And generally it was, I gave

237
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,400
this land to your ancestors
because they were people that

238
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,440
served me.
And if you don't serve me, then

239
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,560
I'm going to cut you off.
And so that that caused me to do

240
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:56,560
a lot of reflecting.
So as you as excuse me, as you

241
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,800
reflected on that, what do you
think?

242
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,200
What do you think that in in
your mind, what did serving him

243
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:15,440
look like?
Not putting myself above other

244
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:16,960
men.
Oh, OK.

245
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:18,280
OK.
So then.

246
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:25,560
Bringing other people up.
So you you have this experience

247
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,960
here where the Lord is going to
you know, has has spoken to your

248
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:36,240
heart here and said, Hey, look,
your ancestors have this land

249
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,360
because they wanted to serve me.
So now you have to serve me.

250
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,160
So that kind of knocked you down
a peg, right?

251
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,600
And what?
What happens from there?

252
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,600
Well, I, I kind of did a full
course reversal, to be honest

253
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:54,360
with you, Dave.
I, I kind of pored over the

254
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,400
scriptures a lot during that
trip.

255
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,120
And I, I actually had the
opportunity to talk with a

256
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,560
cousin of mine who was a
recently returned missionary,

257
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:09,520
and he had a lot of things to
say about the gospel and how he

258
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:15,800
was glad to go out and serve.
And within about four months

259
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,880
from from that time, I, I had
decided that it was rational to,

260
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,400
to join the mainstream LDS
Church.

261
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,280
I don't fully buy into
everything.

262
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,080
At that time.
It was more kind of like a, oh,

263
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,680
OK.
You know, Dallin H Oaks doesn't

264
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:40,320
seem that bad, right?
Maybe he's our guy, but

265
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:48,240
gradually I, I, I started buying
into everything at that.

266
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:54,520
Point All right, so, so you, you
probably fly back home, right?

267
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:56,680
And then what do you do from
there?

268
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,040
Study.
Do you reach out to the

269
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,040
missionaries at this point?
Or Oh no.

270
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,320
So, so you go through the
scriptures once you kind of get

271
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,960
puffed up a little bit, right?
You get kind of get a little

272
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,880
little arrogant.
The Lord humbles you and then

273
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,000
that causes you to go home and
then search the scriptures all

274
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,680
over again.
Yeah.

275
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,280
And and look at dude, that and
and this is all taking place in

276
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,200
like a two year time period.
Is that right?

277
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,040
Yes.
Holy cow.

278
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,040
OK, so as you're studying,
what's different this time than

279
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,600
the last time?
Well, I would say the biggest

280
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,160
thing, and I, I remember this so
clearly.

281
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:45,440
And instead of reading into the
scriptures, I was trying to

282
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,320
exegetize from them, I was
trying to read out of them,

283
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:54,040
right?
And so it, it was as though a

284
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,200
barrier that had blocked my mind
from receiving further light and

285
00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,720
knowledge had been lifted,
right.

286
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:08,400
And, and now I, I just felt
peace, you know, I didn't, I

287
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:16,040
didn't feel the the same sense
of like, I'm trying to think of

288
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,320
the right letter to describe
that, but like puffed up it.

289
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,120
I had peace and confidence and
hope and I I was filled with

290
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,560
fruits of the Spirit.
OK, All right.

291
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,600
So, so now you find yourself
maybe a little more grounded in

292
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,000
in the scriptures, right?
You've read the scriptures for

293
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,080
what they are, not what you want
them to be, if that would be a

294
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,080
fair, fair assessment.
And then what's, what's your

295
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:49,280
next steps from there?
So I remember I, I was still

296
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,880
reading the Journal of
Discourses as well quite

297
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:57,480
frequently, but I was, I was
kind of browsing YouTube one day

298
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,280
and then I saw that general
conference was going on.

299
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:06,280
So I clicked on the live stream
that was happening then and I

300
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,920
listened to this whole talk.
And I, I, I remember the talk to

301
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:18,400
this day, I think it was the
November 2020 talk by Russell M

302
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,680
Nelson that was about the
gathering of Israel.

303
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:26,680
And I listened to the talk and I
had just read a talk.

304
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,280
I, I think it was Brigham Young
about the gathering, right.

305
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,640
And Brigham Young talked about
it might not have been Brigham

306
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:36,920
Young, but that's besides the
point.

307
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,880
The, the, the old general
authority talked about the

308
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,480
importance of physically
gathering as a people and

309
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:50,560
establishing a community, right?
And then Russell M Nelson was

310
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,720
kind of talking about
spiritually gathering and then

311
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:55,680
kind of redefining the term,
right.

312
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,000
And so I'm listening to this
talk and I'm like, man, this is

313
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,320
not good.
I'm I'm seeing it.

314
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:07,360
Right.
But you, I, I want to

315
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:09,800
reemphasize, you still haven't
reached out to the missionaries

316
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:10,320
yet.
Right.

317
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,360
No, no, I didn't.
I didn't.

318
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,200
I didn't think it would do me
any good at this.

319
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,520
Gotcha.
And so, but you're still seeing

320
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:22,360
the discrepancy between what was
taught by the old guard and

321
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,560
what's being taught today, and
they're a little different.

322
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,600
Oh, yeah, 100% So.
And I, I actually wrote like a,

323
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:37,120
a kind of response to the talk
pulling from different sources

324
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,640
from like the Journal of the
Discourses and the Doctrine and

325
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,640
Covenants.
And I, I, I talked to some of my

326
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,720
friends about it.
But that, that did leave a

327
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,360
lasting impression because it
was the first time that I had

328
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,120
really listened to a general
conference talk from the

329
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:58,640
mainstream church.
And as much as I knew it

330
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:06,520
deviated from the traditional
Mormon religion, I, it, it also

331
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:12,400
presents itself as a very
cosmopolitan and safe

332
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,520
institution to be a part of,
right?

333
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,400
One that's full of community.
And in a lot of ways, it is full

334
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:26,560
of community, right?
And over time, I think the the

335
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:31,200
need for community outweighed my
spiritual integrity.

336
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:38,120
And I, I I reached out to the
missionaries about a year after

337
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:41,080
that point.
OK, hang tight real quick.

338
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,520
Let's stop there for a second.
So during this time, do you have

339
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,360
LDS friends you're talking to,
anything like that?

340
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,040
No, Sir.
OK, so this is you just solo.

341
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:52,720
Yeah.
OK.

342
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,760
What are you doing that year in
between deciding that, you know

343
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,200
what, there's a community here.
Kind of almost like something

344
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,520
beats nothing.
Kind of an idea, right?

345
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,120
So what happens in that year
between the time you come to

346
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,960
that conclusion and the time you
talk to the missionaries?

347
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,360
So that's, that's when I
actually do start meeting people

348
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:20,280
because like I mentioned before,
I was, I was pretty chronically

349
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:27,360
online and at the time there's
this Twitter space that, that,

350
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:32,040
that it cropped up and I, I met
a lot of people there that, that

351
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,960
kind of made me for, feel more
comfortable with the direction

352
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:42,840
of the church was going.
And then gradually that became

353
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,640
less and less important to me
that, that those aspects of the

354
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:57,040
community and I, I, I kind of
inserted myself into more

355
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:03,240
mainstream centric places and
mainstream centric ways of

356
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:09,040
thinking.
And then I I did that for about

357
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,160
a year and then I reached out to
the missionaries.

358
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,840
So the missionaries come over
and what's that first meeting

359
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,440
like?
I mean, that you had to have

360
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:17,880
blown their minds a little bit,
right?

361
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,280
Because I'm guessing there's not
a whole lot of folks in

362
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,320
Tennessee who are cropping up
going, yeah, I've been through

363
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,240
the Scriptures twice.
I've, you know, listen to

364
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,080
General Conference.
I'm already hanging with

365
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,200
Mormons.
I mean, what, what, what, what

366
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,520
was their response when?
What was that first meeting

367
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,360
like?
Well, I walked up to them in

368
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:40,280
church 'cause my parents didn't
want them around the house and I

369
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,040
was still 17 at the time.
And I told them I wanted to be

370
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,320
baptized right on the spot.
And they were like, hold on, we

371
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,880
need to go through the lessons.
And I, I pretty much told them I

372
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,280
was like, I, I don't think I
really need that, but we can.

373
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,280
And we, we went through them and
it, it didn't last a week.

374
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,280
I was baptized the week after
that and some some some extended

375
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,120
family flew out from Utah for my
baptism.

376
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,680
Gotcha.
What was your parents reaction

377
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,000
when you told them you wanted to
be baptized 'cause you're what,

378
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,240
17 now?
OK.

379
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,480
In, in that time period, you're
17.

380
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,320
Yeah, OK, So what?
What do your parents say when

381
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,880
you're like, hey, I, I think I'm
going to be a Mormon?

382
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:34,520
So they had seen it coming for a
long time because I, I had that

383
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,800
interest in history and I wasn't
shy about it.

384
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,280
But my dad actually had a really
interesting response because he

385
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:46,840
sat me down and he kind of
talked about his history in in

386
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,920
like his family history and as
well as his ties to various

387
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,320
different like strands of
Mormonism.

388
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:59,800
And he talked about, you know,
my, my great grandmother was,

389
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:05,320
was abused by her mainstream
husband and she ran away to join

390
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,680
the FLDS and, and lived as a
plural wife in that community

391
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:09,440
for a little bit.
Let.

392
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,640
Me see if I get this straight
your grandma, so I'm just

393
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,520
throwing dates out there I I it
would be around the 50s she

394
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,400
probably leaves a mainstream the
mainstream and runs to the FLDS

395
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:29,320
for safety well that backfired I
mean for her maybe but later on

396
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,280
down the road she'd have still
been alive that would have

397
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,200
backfired well she.
She left, actually.

398
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,600
She's still alive now, and she
left the FLDS at some point.

399
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,560
OK, All right.
So, so she she she leaves, she

400
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,120
goes to the FLDS.
So in a weird way, your family

401
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:51,920
kind of saved by fundamentalism.
Exactly.

402
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,040
Yeah.
Because the 50s would have been

403
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,360
before anything too nasty was
happening in Short Creek, Right.

404
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,400
And so she leaves the LDS
church.

405
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,240
I would love, I'd love to pick
her brain to find out what

406
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,400
happened in the LDS church that
made her want decide to go to

407
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,200
Short Creek, Right.
I mean, like that's, that's like

408
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,960
bad, right?
I like, I, I don't understand,

409
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,080
but the holy count must have
been horrific.

410
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,960
And so your dad tells you, if
you're going to do this Mormon

411
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,320
thing, not necessarily be a
fundamentalist, but you have to

412
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,440
understand there's kind of more
teachings outside of the church

413
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,400
and that those teachings are
what guided my life, so to

414
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,240
speak, right?
Not necessarily the doctrine,

415
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,040
but how to be a good man, how to
have work ethic, that sort of

416
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,840
thing is.
Is that a correct summation?

417
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,360
Yes.
And he really hits on the point

418
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:46,000
of like, don't be a tool of the
church, right?

419
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,520
That's really his biggest thing.
He's like, look, think for

420
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:57,720
yourself, you know, right.
He, he's like, don't, don't just

421
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:03,240
do whatever the guy in charge
says, be an independent thinker.

422
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,960
But that guy was, he was an
independent thinker.

423
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,880
And there were some parts of his
religion that I think were

424
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,040
weird.
And I remember he, he said that.

425
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,840
But he's like, at the end of the
day, he was a good man and he

426
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,440
taught me a lot of things.
Holy cow, is your grandma still

427
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,080
a fundamentalist?
I don't think so.

428
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,480
OK, not a Mormon at all or.
I don't know.

429
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,960
She's so my grandma, my grandma
is still a Mormon, but my great

430
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:39,200
grandmother and she, she's not
very talkative.

431
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,320
She she's had a she's had a
rough life.

432
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,680
So she's not very warm.
OK, all right, cool.

433
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,760
So she probably is not down to
talk to a fundamentalist online.

434
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:51,680
I don't know.
I'm just joking.

435
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,840
I'm just kidding you.
Can reach out.

436
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:02,200
OK, so so your dad has that talk
with you, right?

437
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,320
As you say, look, this is the
road I want to go down.

438
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,080
I want to join the church that,
you know, the LDS church.

439
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,160
And your dad's like, cool.
But keep this in mind.

440
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,120
Don't don't be, don't be a tool,
as you put it.

441
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,040
Yep.
Excuse me.

442
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:27,880
So from there, what happens?
I so this, this is where a girl

443
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,240
gets into the story because it
needs to get even more

444
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,320
conflated, right?
I, I, I already have the

445
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,760
intention of joining the church
and I'm like super gung ho.

446
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,440
I'm thinking I'm going to serve
2 missions because I'm going to

447
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,080
get double the blessings.
And you know, all all of these

448
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,720
interesting ideas and people are
kind of looking at me like,

449
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,600
whoa, you're taking even people
in the church are like, dude,

450
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,480
calm down, right?
Dude slow down bro, you're

451
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,160
you're out mormoning the rest of
us.

452
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:11,240
Yes, and I, I meet this girl
online and we start, we, we have

453
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,920
the intention of seeing each
other.

454
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,320
She also flies out from my
baptism.

455
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:22,880
And I would say that that
relationship was one of, if not

456
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,040
the main factor behind the point
where I was like, OK, I'm just

457
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:33,760
going to relax on all of this at
the end of the day, right?

458
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,800
If, if I'm able to live my
right, live my life right, have

459
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:46,840
a family and, and have a, a
enjoyable mortal probation where

460
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,200
I don't have to worry about all
of these extra things, then I'm

461
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:55,080
set, right, The easy route,
right?

462
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:02,640
And you know, I, I didn't feel
true to myself for a long time,

463
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,880
but it, that's, that's the way
that it went.

464
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,040
And that's how I entered the
water.

465
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,160
All right, so you go in with
every intention of the world to

466
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,680
be a lifelong member of the LDS
Church, right?

467
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,080
Oh, yes, Sir.
OK, so you get baptized.

468
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,600
What was what was that like for
you?

469
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,240
Underwhelming.
Really.

470
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,320
It was underwhelming.
I have been looking forward to

471
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:36,240
it for at that point about seven
months because there, there were

472
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,000
a lot of delays that that kind
of kept happening before I was

473
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,720
able to talk to the missionaries
and actually get the process

474
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:48,320
finalized.
But honestly, the process felt

475
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,280
better than the actual
experience.

476
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:55,200
And I, I kind of got the feeling
that everyone around me was

477
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,920
trying to get me to feel a
certain way about it that I just

478
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,840
didn't feel.
So it it felt kind of weird.

479
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,400
Gotcha, gotcha.
No, that makes that makes sense.

480
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:15,640
So when when that's all done,
are you, how long are you a

481
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,000
member?
But like, does anyone talk to

482
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,960
you about a mission or anything
like that?

483
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:29,760
So I I went in the day that I
talked to the missionaries and

484
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,720
asked to be baptized.
I talked to the Bishop that same

485
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,320
day.
And from that, that moment, I

486
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,120
told him after I'm baptized, I
want to start filling out my

487
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,160
mission papers and I want a
patriarchal blessing.

488
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,320
And how old are you at this
time, 18?

489
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,000
17. 17 OK, but you can't go on a
mission till you're 18, right?

490
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,160
And he was, he told me that he's
like you, you're going to have

491
00:32:52,160 --> 00:33:00,120
to wait to fill those out.
I'm like, OK, but so, so a

492
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,480
mission was like a, a, a
declaration of intent, right?

493
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,120
I, everyone knew I wanted to
serve a mission.

494
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,080
And honestly, that was part of
the reason I, I got interested

495
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,240
in the church from the
perspective that I had because

496
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,480
it, it offered that opportunity,
opportunity to serve a mission

497
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,320
easier, right?
Right.

498
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,480
And so it everyone was kind of
aware of that intention.

499
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,240
OK.
OK.

500
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,600
All right.
So how long is it before you can

501
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,840
go on a mission?
Are we talking a full year?

502
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,640
Are we talking, you know, six
months?

503
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,320
What are we looking?
At so at that time it was about

504
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,920
because I need to turn 18 and
then graduate high school.

505
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,000
I turned 18 and four months
after I was baptized and then I

506
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,240
graduated and three months after
that I think.

507
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,760
So it was like 6 months, OK.
So what's what's church activity

508
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,440
look like for you during this
time?

509
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,160
Oh, weekly attendance.
I was going every week.

510
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,920
I was going to the youth
activities as well.

511
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,920
They put me on the priests
quorum presidency, which wasn't

512
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,520
saying much because it was all
of five people and I was one of

513
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,560
the only ones that showed up
regularly.

514
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,719
So I was, I was also involved in
in some of those

515
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,040
responsibilities as well.
OK, so you're starting to cut

516
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,760
your teeth, right?
Really starting.

517
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,239
You're you're fulfilling a
calling.

518
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,679
You know, you're you're at this
point, for all intents and

519
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:38,239
purposes, you're an adult,
right?

520
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,040
You're almost 18.
And so you're taking this a

521
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,639
little more seriously.
Now I have to ask a question.

522
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,360
What was it like for you to be
in the priest quorum?

523
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,840
What did, did you did that feel
weird?

524
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,760
Because look, most priests who
were there are there because

525
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,600
their parents are Mormon, right?
And here you come along and I

526
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,320
can kind of relate to this a
little bit.

527
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,240
You come along and you're here
for a completely different

528
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:05,120
reason, right?
It's not because mom and dad

529
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,480
expect it.
It's because you feel this.

530
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,520
What was that like in priest
quorum for you and going to

531
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,680
those youth activities?
Sometimes I felt like I was

532
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:21,760
talking to myself.
OK, it, it, it, it was a

533
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,160
struggle.
Sometimes there are some lessons

534
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,120
where we were able to have like
a good conversation going and I

535
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,160
can tell people were into it.
But most of the time those,

536
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,320
those are like the, the milk and
honey subjects of the gospel,

537
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,440
right?
I always wanted to talk about

538
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,120
the meat.
Like I I need to be more

539
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,600
comfortable with just the milk
and honey sometimes because I

540
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,760
get too focused on the meat and
it it hurts my brain.

541
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,080
But I always wanted to talk
about the meat and nobody else

542
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:51,680
did.
Right, right.

543
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,480
See, when I joined, I joined
when I, I, I joined when I was

544
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:03,040
17, right before I turned 18.
And I didn't even go to priest

545
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,040
corn like, but I was also very
serious about my wife to be

546
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,000
right it we were, we were
looking at getting married

547
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,280
pretty serious.
And I had a really good Bishop

548
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,880
who was like, yeah, don't come
to priest quorum.

549
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,440
Just start going to elders
quorum.

550
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:17,880
I'll let him know that you're
coming.

551
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,000
But you are not going to fit
here, son, because you know,

552
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,320
again, they're they're light
hearted kids, right?

553
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,080
And that's good.
I'm not saying that's a bad

554
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,400
thing, but I was in a just a
little bit different place.

555
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,320
So he was like, you're close
enough to 18.

556
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,120
Go to elders quorum.
You'll probably get more out of

557
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,000
it there.
And then within a year I was, I

558
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,880
was baptized.
I, I mean, married probably less

559
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,960
than that, probably like six
months I was married.

560
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,160
And so at that point I was, I
was off the room, but I can kind

561
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,040
of kind of relate to that.
So you, you kind of work the

562
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,880
program, so to speak, right?
You, you, you check all the

563
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,000
boxes, you do what you're
supposed to, you get your wisdom

564
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,320
teeth out, you do all these
things and then you file your

565
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,520
paperwork, right?
Yes, Sir.

566
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:06,920
All right, how long it take to
get your call back?

567
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,600
Oh man.
So the process to actually get

568
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:16,880
my paperwork done was long.
The the process itself took

569
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,760
about 4-5 months.
There's a garment shortage that

570
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,440
got in the way of me getting
endowed there.

571
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,960
There were multiple things that
got in the way.

572
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,960
But after I finally filled it
in, it took it took about three

573
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,080
months.
So, so when you, what's your

574
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:43,760
parents thinking through this as
you are like, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm

575
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:51,000
going to go on a mission.
To say the least, they were

576
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,280
somewhat concerned.
Right?

577
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:01,720
Like I mentioned before, my dad
very much respects intellectual

578
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:06,960
freedom and and the ability to
think independently outside of

579
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:16,600
the like power frameworks pretty
much and the mission that I

580
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,240
experienced was not very
conductive to that we're.

581
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,920
Going to get, we're going to get
to that in a second, but I want

582
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,160
to know what your dad's and your
mom's reaction was.

583
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,840
My, my mom was a lot more afraid
that I was going to get like

584
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,560
brainwashed and come back a
completely different person and,

585
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,480
and be hostile towards the
family and, and want to be

586
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,080
distanced.
And then my dad, he wasn't

587
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,320
necessarily afraid of that
happening because I, I think he

588
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:56,640
trusts my, my ability to kind of
think independently, but he, he

589
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:01,880
did voice that concern as well.
All right, so now we move up to

590
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,360
the time you get your mission
call.

591
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,640
What was that like?
That was actually an

592
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,840
exhilarating experience, right?
I got the text message on my

593
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,400
phone that said your call is
available to be opened up on

594
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,920
missionary.org.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, I

595
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:26,520
hope I get sent somewhere crazy
like the the Democratic Republic

596
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,640
of Congo.
I was going to say, we want to

597
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,720
go somewhere where you can just
convert hundreds of people and

598
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:36,320
just like bust open new new
branches, wards and stakes,

599
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,360
aren't you?
Yes, Sir, that that was that was

600
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,760
my hope and my anticipation.
OK, so did you open your mission

601
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,120
call in front of your parents?
In front of my mother.

602
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,840
My mother was there.
OK, all right, so, so take me

603
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,880
through this cause OK, spoiler,
I know what happens, but the

604
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,840
rest of you don't.
So I'm really anticipating this

605
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,600
part.
So, so like you get your mom

606
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,760
together and you're like, all
right, mom, here we go.

607
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,520
And, and Mason right now he's
thinking about, oh, I'm going to

608
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,640
the Democratic Republic of
Congo.

609
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,240
I'm going to go somewhere down
to South America where the

610
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,920
gospel isn't talked about a lot.
And you're just chomping at the

611
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,600
bit, aren't you?
OK, All right.

612
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,000
So your mom's there.
You're waiting.

613
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,600
You've been waiting with bated
breath.

614
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:28,000
What happens?
I open my mission call, start

615
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,720
reading through, and then I read
the words.

616
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:38,080
You are assigned to labor in the
Utah Provo Mission, English

617
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,320
speaking.
Oh, oh, and what was your OK?

618
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,560
OK, what'd you think in that
moment?

619
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:52,080
Oh no.
Yeah, yeah, dude, you're a

620
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,760
better man than I am.
I think I would have texted back

621
00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:00,120
and be like, try again.
What'd your mom's?

622
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,080
What'd your mom think?
She's.

623
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,160
Probably kind of relieved, yeah.
She was probably kind of

624
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,480
relieved, right, Because because
her, her boy's not going to be,

625
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,160
you know, down there and, you
know, someplace that's

626
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,520
dangerous.
You know, you're, I mean, don't

627
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,680
get me wrong, they're certainly
quote the mean streets of Provo.

628
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,360
I'm just kidding.
There's no mean but but you're

629
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,680
you're going to a relatively
safe area.

630
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:30,640
Yes, Sir.
But how are you feeling about

631
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,400
it?
Completely disheveled?

632
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,040
OK.
Did you like all, like did you

633
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,240
have other guys that were around
your age get ready to be going

634
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:44,240
on missions as well or were you
the only one?

635
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:49,400
I was the only one at the time,
but after I got my call, there's

636
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,160
some other people in the ward
that I think we're excited by

637
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,320
it.
But before you left, did they

638
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:59,360
get their call?
No, they got it shortly after,

639
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,080
all right.
Oh, actually, no, that's that's

640
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,880
a lie.
They got it like the week that I

641
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,280
left.
OK.

642
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,320
And where did they end up going?
Do you remember?

643
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,720
Not anywhere more exciting.
It was like Phoenix AZ or

644
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:14,280
something like that.
OK, All right.

645
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,080
No, that that makes sense.
All right, So what do you do to

646
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:24,120
start getting ready then?
Honestly, by this point, right,

647
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,680
I, I mentioned that I was, I was
crazy gung ho, right?

648
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,320
So by this point, for about a
year and a half, I'd already

649
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,600
been out with the missionaries
like at least two or three times

650
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,080
a week.
I was, I was teaching lessons

651
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,960
with the missionaries.
So I just continued doing that

652
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:47,640
at a upscaled rate because I, I,
I had left my job because I had

653
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,560
saved up enough money to go on
the mission, because I, I was, I

654
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:57,680
was self financing as well.
So I, I saved up enough money, I

655
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,960
left and then I, I just kind of
became like a, a part time

656
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:07,400
missionary in a sense.
I continued to study the

657
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,000
scriptures and that was really
about it.

658
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,280
All right, so the day comes when
you're supposed to go to the

659
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,920
MTC, right?
What's that like with your

660
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:25,000
folks?
It was stressful and it that

661
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,640
that's really the word of it
because we were, we had the

662
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,400
biggest snowstorm that we had
seen in a while.

663
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,760
And I know you, you were living
in Utah for a very long time.

664
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,600
So people knew how to drive in
snow.

665
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:42,320
People down here don't know how
to drive and snow.

666
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,240
They don't know.
So the roads shut down, the

667
00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:51,240
plane stopped flying around.
Everything just goes to crap

668
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:56,080
when it starts snowing, right?
So we had to get up at like 2:00

669
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,000
in the morning and drive to the
Nashville airport.

670
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,680
Everything, it's still snowing.
There's snow all over the road.

671
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,840
Some of them are iced over.
We almost lose control of the

672
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,120
vehicle a couple of different
times and we finally get there

673
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:16,000
at around like 4:00 and my
parents are already in such a

674
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,000
rush that they don't even hug me
goodbye.

675
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,320
They're just like.
Go, go.

676
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,040
They just kick you out the door.
We're like, see you in two

677
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,360
years.
Have you flown?

678
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,160
Have you flown anywhere before
by yourself?

679
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:32,640
I've flown around before, yeah.
OK, so going in the airport

680
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,520
wasn't intimidating by yourself?
No, Sir.

681
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:36,960
OK.
All right.

682
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,440
So you so you you get in.
Was your flight delayed at all

683
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,360
or anything like that?
This, this is a story.

684
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,880
So I mentioned it was snowing,
right?

685
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,480
Not only was it snowing, but so
they they like to have their

686
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,840
flights through Delta.
I think the church has some kind

687
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,040
of deal with Delta, right?
And the Delta kiosk has nobody

688
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:05,960
there and a line of like 200
people that I'm standing at the

689
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,960
absolute tail end of.
But the worst part is there's

690
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:16,240
two lines.
Come to find out about an hour

691
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:20,440
later when the Delta kiosk
finally gets some people in, the

692
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,800
line that I'm standing in goes
nowhere.

693
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:33,640
So I didn't make it to my flight
because the there there's just

694
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,480
no way.
So I called the the missionary

695
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:42,600
travel department and I'm like,
look, I gotta get to the MTC

696
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,480
today.
Like I, I, I got to, I don't

697
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,640
care if I have to have 5
layovers.

698
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,040
Can you just figure out a way
and keep in Utah?

699
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,600
This is at like what they're an
hour behind central time.

700
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,320
So this is about 4:00 Utah time.
I I called the.

701
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,160
Emergency in the morning.
Yes, it's awful.

702
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,200
So I called the emergency travel
line that they had and she's

703
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,200
like I, I don't think I'm going
to be able to get you there

704
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,880
today.
And I'm like, Are you sure?

705
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:21,840
She's like let me check.
And so I'm, I'm on hold for a

706
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,920
minute and she comes back and
she's like OK, I can but you're

707
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:28,800
going to have to go through 5
layovers.

708
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:30,800
Holy.
Cow.

709
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,400
OK, so so where all do you end
up going on the flight?

710
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,000
I don't even remember.
I think I went to two Texas

711
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:45,920
airports, Denver, and no, it was
4 layovers that No 3 layovers.

712
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,320
My bad.
It was 2 in Texas and then

713
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,280
Denver and then I finally
touched down in Salt Lake.

714
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:53,040
OK.
All right.

715
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,520
So, so you get to Salt Lake and
then what?

716
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,200
What happens from there?
Probably exhausted, right?

717
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,360
What time, what time do you get
to Salt Lake?

718
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:07,320
It was about 6.
A lot of traveling, my man, A

719
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:12,160
lot of traveling.
So I get into Salt Lake and

720
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,320
immediately people notice I'm a
missionary at, at the airport.

721
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,800
So there's a bunch of people
that are chatting me up and

722
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,960
they're like, you know, where,
where are you serving?

723
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,600
Right, 'cause I'm, I'm going to
the MTC and I'm like, you'll

724
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,160
never believe this.
About 20, about 35 minutes off

725
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,520
the Saltway, Yeah.
I'm serving in the Utah Provo

726
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,320
mission and they're like, oh,
that's actually really cool.

727
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,680
They they like to send people
out here so they know how a well

728
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,040
structured and church community
looks so they can institute it

729
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:51,440
when they go back home.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

730
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:58,400
But they put me on the I, I'm
actually not tired at this

731
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,880
point.
Like I'm, I'm hyper like this.

732
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,520
This was actually super fun for
me, not not just sitting around

733
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,720
and waiting in the plane part,
but like actually touching down

734
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,120
and then getting everything
ready to go into Provo and go to

735
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,640
the MTC and meet the people that
are in my district.

736
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,160
Because actually when I was
doing it, they had the online at

737
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,040
MTC for a week.
So we talked over like Zoom and

738
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:25,880
everything.
So you got to know a little bit

739
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:27,760
about the people in your
district.

740
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,800
So by this point, I'm, I'm hyped
to actually be with them in

741
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,760
person.
So I'm, I get they, they have

742
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,280
this guy that they typically use
to bring missionaries over.

743
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,520
And there's one guy that was as
late as I was and we're just

744
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,920
sitting in the back of this
guy's car just yeah, where are

745
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,200
you from?
Oh, I'm from, I'm from

746
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,000
Wisconsin.
You know, I'm just shooting it

747
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,840
up.
And eventually we made it to the

748
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,440
MTC.
OK, so what's it, what's it like

749
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,200
there?
Your first night at the MTC.

750
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:12,600
So that was interesting when I,
when I got into the room, I did

751
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,240
not want to go to bed.
And they have like a, a strict

752
00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:17,760
curfew.
I was, I, I just wanted to keep

753
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:24,040
talking with, with like the my,
my, whatever you call it, the,

754
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,400
the people that were in my room,
'cause I roommates, yes,

755
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,920
roommates.
We had like an instant

756
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,560
connection, the four of us,
'cause it was, it was four of us

757
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,960
seated.
They had two bunk beds and we,

758
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,760
we struck it off pretty quick
and it was difficult to, to go

759
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,000
to bed at the time.
But eventually I I made it work

760
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:50,680
because I I had been up at that
point for like a long time.

761
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:56,520
So let let me ask you this.
When you first get there, does

762
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,160
it get real for you?
Are you all of a sudden like, oh

763
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:05,320
crap, we're we're here.
No, honestly, I, I got a feeling

764
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,640
of we're here and it wasn't that
it it, it, it did get real, but

765
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,520
it got real in a very positive
way.

766
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,360
OK, I'm promised.
OK, good.

767
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,400
So so you have you, you get in
there, you go to sleep.

768
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:23,000
What's the MTC experience like?
You know, even even with where I

769
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:27,480
stand now, I think the MTC was
one of the funnest experiences

770
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:32,600
I've ever had, right.
We went during the winter

771
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,600
months, so there was snow all
over the ground and we had

772
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,880
snowball fights, much to the
dismay of the people that were

773
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:47,320
over the MTC.
We built a snowman and, and we

774
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,400
would we would have a a lot of
interesting discussions at the

775
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,440
lunch table.
I actually really liked some of

776
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,400
the food that they had there
that they're had, They had this

777
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,200
like Polynesian BBQ place that
had some really good pulled

778
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,560
pork.
So I I really enjoyed the

779
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,000
experience.
Did you have to pay for it while

780
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:07,400
you were?
There.

781
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:08,800
No, it's free.
OK.

782
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,840
All right.
So they they had a couple

783
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,560
options for you.
You got in there.

784
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,360
Yeah, yeah.
You make some buds, right?

785
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,320
And that sort of thing does does
anything about the MTC

786
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,320
experience really stick out to
you at all?

787
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,640
Is there any moment at which,
cause look, you're coming at

788
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,280
this a little weird, right?
Like you've, you've kind of

789
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,360
already, as you alluded to,
flirted with some fundamentalist

790
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,640
kind of ideas.
So what's it like to be in there

791
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,680
now?
Is there anything as far as red

792
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,520
flags where you're like?
Uh oh, there are.

793
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:45,640
OK, what happens?
So there was already from the

794
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:50,720
very beginning, there was a
strong emphasis on, on like

795
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:52,680
follow your priesthood head,
right?

796
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,880
Whatever your priesthood said,
whatever your priesthood head

797
00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:00,720
says that goes, you need to be
obedient to the, the rules and

798
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:02,360
the counsel of your priesthood
head.

799
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:07,440
And I noticed that a lot of the
people at the MTC are just like

800
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:12,400
using the spirit of God as a
way, a way to like just control

801
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,480
people straight up.
We were at choir practice one

802
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,680
day and the, the conductor
there, there was a little bit of

803
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,960
people talking and he straight
up said, you know, even if

804
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:28,160
you're talking about spiritual
things right now, you're not

805
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,000
going to be feeling the spirit
because the spirit doesn't

806
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,800
strive with people when they're
being disruptive to, to base.

807
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:40,400
He didn't say me, but that was
the gist of what he said, right?

808
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,560
So there were a lot of things
like that that rubbed me very

809
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,080
much the wrong way.
Right, because your dad's

810
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,880
instilled in you this idea of
thinking outside the hierarchy.

811
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:50,440
Yes.
OK.

812
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:52,280
All right.
Anything else?

813
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:58,720
Doctrine, Doctrine, right?
By this point, I had already

814
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:02,320
actually discovered the podcast
and and I I I.

815
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,560
This podcast, Yeah.
Oh, yeah.

816
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,160
All right.
My bad.

817
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,360
All right.
So, so are you listening to the

818
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,880
are, are you listening to this
podcast while you're in the MTC?

819
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:18,680
No, no.
Not on the.

820
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,600
MTVC.
I'm gonna have, you know, the

821
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:28,320
the explicit lyrics label that
goes on like the CDs with

822
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,480
explicit lyrics and stuff.
I'm gonna have to start putting

823
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,080
one of those on here for
missionaries.

824
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,760
Yeah.
You know, don't, don't listen to

825
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,480
this till you get home, kids.
So, so.

826
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:43,000
So you've been listening to the
podcast before you leave, right?

827
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,120
And you're, you're hearing all
this stuff.

828
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,720
So you get there and then you
start hearing the doctrine.

829
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:50,800
What, what's that like?
It's it's.

830
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,920
Just a little weird, right?
Because they're just putting

831
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,160
words, especially into Brigham
Young's mouth, right?

832
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:05,880
Like Brigham Young was never
gung ho about whatever whatever

833
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,520
this guy says goes right.
Like he's the closest that you

834
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,840
can get out of the early church
leaders to make it sound like

835
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,480
he's saying that for sure.
But there's there's not this

836
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:21,280
attitude of like, no matter
what, the the head of the

837
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,240
priesthood can never apostatize.
And whatever he says is right.

838
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:28,880
Even if he tells you to throw
yourself into a volcano, that's

839
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,720
what you should do, right.
And I I was getting penalized

840
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:40,040
for kind of odd things as well.
For example, OK, tell me, tell

841
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,280
me what you got penalized for
and then tell me what the

842
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:48,640
penalty process is.
So there's like inspections,

843
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,880
right?
They go to your, your dorm room.

844
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,360
They didn't want you to call it
a dorm room because that that

845
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,720
was a worldly term.
You were supposed to call it

846
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,320
something else.
I don't even remember what it

847
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,600
was.
There's weird little language,

848
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:09,240
things like that, right?
And you're like presiding state

849
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:13,400
president sort of substitute
stand in, comes in and he checks

850
00:55:13,720 --> 00:55:22,200
your room and everything.
And he, I don't even remember

851
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,040
what was out.
It was like my journal was

852
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:25,520
laying on the floor or
something.

853
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,840
And he was like, you need to put
that journal up, boy.

854
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,840
He, he didn't say it like that,
but he, it was very much like,

855
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,240
that's, that's disgusting.
And then, and then this, he did

856
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:41,680
100% say this verbatim.
He's like, you will never feel

857
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:49,440
the spirit in an unclean place.
And I'm like, well, I agree with

858
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,760
you, but I don't agree with the
way that you're, you're

859
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,920
interpreting that, you know?
I both agree and disagree with

860
00:55:57,920 --> 00:55:59,600
that, right?
I, I do think it's easier to

861
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,800
feel the spirit in that, but
there's a lot of people who

862
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:05,120
convert in some pretty horrible
circumstances, right?

863
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,280
This, this idea that that the
spirit's not going to check in

864
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,040
based off of, you know, your
circumstances necessarily,

865
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,800
right?
Is, is kind of a misnomer.

866
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,120
But I, I do believe it's easier
to feel the spirit in a clean

867
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,400
environment, but that's not the
only factor that goes into that.

868
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:27,000
So I, and I got to say this as
you're describing the steak

869
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,680
president that comes in, I, I
imagine like the most mild

870
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,040
mannered drill Sergeant ever,
right?

871
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:40,560
Kind of, you know, a little, you
know, a little overbearing, but

872
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:42,600
nothing like screaming or
anything, right?

873
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,920
Yes, yes.
So, So what were the penalty?

874
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:47,880
I mean, what?
How did they penalize you?

875
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:50,360
I I shouldn't have said
penalize.

876
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,160
That's not the right word.
I wasn't like, I wasn't targeted

877
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:55,600
or or anything.
It.

878
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,160
It was just like.
Just on the spot kind of

879
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:00,720
correction.
Yes.

880
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,680
And then the following Sunday, I
went into church, right?

881
00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:09,880
And he the same guy, right?
I'm wearing a sweater for

882
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,120
context because it's cold
outside.

883
00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:17,680
And you're from Tennessee, where
it maybe gets to 30 on a really

884
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:22,080
bad winter day.
Yes, so I'm, I'm, I'm doing what

885
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:26,000
I think is completely reasonable
and the same, the same guy pulls

886
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,840
me aside.
Well, no, let me back up.

887
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,960
He doesn't just pull me aside.
He, he, he kind of makes this

888
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:36,760
remark in front of everybody
else, but I, I thought was kind

889
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,400
of slanted, especially later.
He's like, just so everybody

890
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:44,760
knows, we need to be able to
invite a very reverent spirit

891
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,840
here by the things that we need
to, the things that we cultivate

892
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,640
and the things that we wear.
And then afterwards he pulls me

893
00:57:52,640 --> 00:58:00,160
aside and he goes, Elder Vogel.
I'm like, yes, he's like, we're

894
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,120
supposed to wear suits to
church.

895
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,680
I I said, Sir, it's cold
outside.

896
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,600
Right, right.
Old.

897
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,200
Sir Icky.
OK.

898
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,120
So are are those the major
incidents that happened to you

899
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,160
at the MTC?
There are other things, but to

900
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:25,120
be honest with you, I I didn't
really keep a very good record

901
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:28,120
of them and they they've kind of
gone from my memory.

902
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,280
I mostly remember the positive
things.

903
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:31,720
OK.
All right.

904
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,120
So how long are you in in the
MTC?

905
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:42,720
I think it's 2 1/2 weeks.
OK, so pretty a pretty quick

906
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:44,080
turn around, which would make
sense.

907
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:45,600
You're not learning a new
language.

908
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,560
You you know, that's plenty of
time, especially if you

909
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,560
prepared, like you said, you're
prepared and like you're

910
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,760
supposed to prepare.
You're you're pretty well set up

911
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:55,480
and ready to go.
Yeah.

912
00:58:55,880 --> 00:59:01,720
And I, I think I'd set myself up
too for, for kind of what would

913
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,320
happen on my mission, because by
that point already I was

914
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,160
bringing people over to my room
and having like late night

915
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,760
studies of Doctrine and Covenant
Section 132.

916
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,520
And I I brought in some.
Contraband.

917
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,320
With me, I actually brought in
some contraband right there was

918
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:23,520
you bring an addendum to the
Doctrine and Covenants that

919
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,560
Christchurch prints out?
So I printed that out.

920
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:31,760
OK, Adam hockey with me, Adam
boys studying the 1886

921
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,520
revelation and the 1889
revelation as well.

922
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:40,760
And I remember because I was in
a a trio at the time and one of

923
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:42,680
my companions wanted no part in
it.

924
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,640
He was like this this is against
the rules, this is bad.

925
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,640
And the other one's kind of
like, well, hold on if.

926
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,040
If it's Revelation.
Can't we learn anything from it?

927
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:58,000
And so he he's reading the 1889
revelation, and he goes.

928
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:05,440
Let not my servants deny my law.
What does that mean?

929
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:12,040
I'm like, well.
OK, so, so let's OK, here's what

930
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,080
I'm going to say.
If you're on your mission, I

931
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:16,920
still think that's a positive
thing, right?

932
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,640
Again, I don't have a major
hatred for the church.

933
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:22,760
I don't.
So if you're going to go on a

934
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:24,480
mission, I think that's a
positive thing.

935
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,640
Go absolutely and obey the
rules.

936
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:34,560
But but if you're going to go
this direction, I, I guess yet

937
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,000
bring some stuff.
I guess I, I don't even know

938
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:41,000
what to say to this.
So, so you're so you're like,

939
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:46,000
you're in there having like deep
doctrine classes where you're

940
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:49,960
whipping out, you know, an
addendum to the DNC, you know,

941
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:55,040
basically the 1886 revelation
and a few others that that that

942
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:59,960
the branch puts out.
And then all of the sudden you

943
01:00:59,960 --> 01:01:03,520
got guys coming around, right?
Dude, are, are you self aware

944
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,320
enough to be like this?
This could get me sent home.

945
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:11,640
Yes.
OK, OK, so you're pushing the

946
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,640
boundaries already, knowing full
well what you're doing.

947
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:17,320
Yep.
So what?

948
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,560
What are your buddies thinking
as they're listening to all

949
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:23,120
this?
So there's there's a conflict of

950
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,240
opinion, right?
I have, I have, I have my, my

951
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:31,800
original companion and then I
have the one that was kind of

952
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,480
given to me because his
companion got COVID and was put

953
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:36,600
in quarantine.
Right.

954
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:41,160
Oh, we're in a trio.
My first companion is very much

955
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:46,440
like very, very.
He grew up in Georgia.

956
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,680
He, he was among the only
members of the church in his

957
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,480
community.
He, he led a kind of sheltered

958
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,000
life and he very much believed
in the prophetic calling of the,

959
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:01,200
the modern general authorities.
So he was not down with pretty

960
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:05,400
much anything.
But my second companion grew up

961
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:09,920
in a very, very tough situation
that led him to have a very open

962
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:16,640
mind that I I thought was very
beautiful and pertinent.

963
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:20,480
And it, it, it was he and I that
typically stayed up and had late

964
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,200
night conversations.
There are other people that came

965
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,880
by.
There was another person in my

966
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,880
district who actually was start
out super opposed to it.

967
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:35,080
He's like, well, we abandoned
polygamy for a reason.

968
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:38,080
And, and I don't understand why
it's of any value.

969
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:44,080
And I was like, well, just read
the revelation that God gave on

970
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,640
the subject.
Open your open your scriptures

971
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,760
to section 132 tonight.
Pray about it and see what

972
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,720
happens.
And that night I had a dream

973
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,880
that the Lord visited him and
and taught him the principal

974
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,320
himself.
And I woke up the very next

975
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:03,600
morning and he came to me at
breakfast and was trying to like

976
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:06,880
talk to me privately, but you're
not really allowed to do that as

977
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,200
a missionary.
So it, it was, it was kind of

978
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,760
awkward because people, people
were listening in.

979
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:16,880
So we, we went and grabbed food.
But when we did, he told me, he

980
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:23,360
said last night it, I, I, it
just clicked.

981
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:27,680
I understand it interesting.
He's like, it's, it's like a

982
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,000
team, right?
What, what team doesn't

983
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:33,440
accomplish more when there are
more people in it?

984
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,800
I'm like, that's actually pretty
true.

985
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,320
Yeah, I didn't, I didn't think
of it that way, But yeah, you're

986
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,320
right.
He's like, I, I see what you're

987
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:45,480
saying now.
I, I, I see the value in it.

988
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,640
And so there's, there's little
things like that that are going

989
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,720
on while I'm in the MTC and I'm
part of me is thinking like,

990
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:53,680
yeah, I'm helping these people
understand more.

991
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:58,840
And the other parts like, oh
man, I'm getting some stuff.

992
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:01,920
OK, all right.
So, so you're, you're already

993
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:05,840
flirting with it in the MTC.
Does anything else happen that's

994
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,880
of of note to the story here why
you're in the MTC?

995
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:18,560
So I, I think it's at that point
that I, I just developed a, a

996
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,640
general attitude of like, it is
what it is.

997
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:29,360
And I I I won't be telling it to
every single person that crosses

998
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:32,000
my path, but I'm also.
You're not going to you're

999
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,400
you're not going to create an
extra lesson in the in the

1000
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:38,440
missionary handbook for for yes,
OK, but probably if we get

1001
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,000
smarter.
Open, I'll talk to them.

1002
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:47,840
Right.
OK, so then you, you get thrust

1003
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:51,960
out into the mission, right?
OK, so so what's that like?

1004
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:55,120
Tell, tell me about your first
night Now, do you still, since

1005
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:58,000
you're in Provo, do you still
say stay in the MTC or do you,

1006
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,320
is there a mission home for
Provo?

1007
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:07,800
So you woke up in the MTC and
you were out by about 12 O clock

1008
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:10,920
in the morning.
They bused you to the mission

1009
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,960
home.
They had like an introductory

1010
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:18,720
thing, a slideshow about the
mission president and his

1011
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:23,200
family, the culture of the
mission, etcetera, etcetera,

1012
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:26,840
etcetera.
And then they, they paired you

1013
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,280
up with your trainer and then
they sent you off to your area

1014
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,760
all on the same day.
For me, my first area was

1015
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:39,520
Roosevelt, Utah.
And the yes, Sir, kind of a call

1016
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:45,600
back, right?
So I I didn't have time to do

1017
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,920
anything except get there and
then go to sleep.

1018
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:53,280
Gotcha, gotcha.
So the next day, you, you now,

1019
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,000
are you in the mission home or
are you with your companion in

1020
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:57,720
your apartment or wherever
you're staying?

1021
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,960
So I'm in my companion in the
apartment, but the coolest thing

1022
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:06,640
about my first area was that it
was a four pad, which meant it

1023
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:09,640
slept 4 missionaries.
So it's 4 missionaries instead

1024
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:11,280
of two.
Interesting.

1025
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,880
OK, so that next morning you
wake up and what you guys do?

1026
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:22,800
I felt awful, I was horribly
sick, but we got to work anyway.

1027
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:27,000
1st order of business on the
list was my companion.

1028
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,960
Took me around and we met most
of the local leadership.

1029
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:36,080
You know your bishops, the one
member of the stake presidency

1030
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:40,600
that was in town at the time.
You know your your elder scorn

1031
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:44,720
presidents generally, leadership
and all the various wards that

1032
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,240
we were over that that I would
need to be acquainted with.

1033
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:50,440
OK.
All right.

1034
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:55,280
And that's your whole kind of
first day pretty much, yeah.

1035
01:06:55,600 --> 01:07:00,280
OK.
And then are you guys feeding

1036
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:02,240
yourselves?
Are you going to members homes a

1037
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:02,960
lot?
What?

1038
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:07,200
What was that scenario like?
So the Utah Provo Mission had a

1039
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:10,680
rule that was passed down from
the area presidency if it said

1040
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:16,160
you can only eat out at a
member's house on the weekends.

1041
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,360
So you're feeding yourself all
throughout the weekdays?

1042
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:24,960
OK, cool.
So do you, do you kind of get to

1043
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:28,000
work doing missionary things
like your second day or?

1044
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:32,040
Oh absolutely.
We we rocked right into it.

1045
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:38,000
I I had been well prepared.
So my companion was like, this

1046
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,320
is a lot easier than I thought
it was going to be.

1047
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:43,160
I was kind of scared, not going
to lie, because it was his first

1048
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,440
time training a new missionary.
Gotcha.

1049
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:48,680
Yeah, so he, he was relieved
that I was an easy one.

1050
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:52,560
His his next one was a little
bit a little bit more trouble

1051
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:56,800
than I was.
So So what did you guys OK, so

1052
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,800
tell me about, you know, the the
next few weeks or months where

1053
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:03,680
you're there in Roosevelt.
Are you guys having success?

1054
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,880
What's what's happening?
We.

1055
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:09,480
Pick up a lot of potential,
right?

1056
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,960
We see a lot of people that that
have potential which in the Utah

1057
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:19,279
Provo mission that this this is
the highest baptizing mission in

1058
01:08:19,279 --> 01:08:25,720
the world actually.
And yes, the reason it is is 9

1059
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:29,439
year old children.
That's it 100%.

1060
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:33,399
That's not like all of the
baptisms, but that's a big part

1061
01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:36,000
of why the baptism rate is so
high.

1062
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:40,720
Because there are a lot of Jack
Mormons who still believe in the

1063
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,760
faith but don't attend church
consistently and so their

1064
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:46,160
children don't get baptized at
8.

1065
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:50,600
When they turn 9, they're no
longer considered members of

1066
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:54,319
record and it becomes a
missionary's job to teach them.

1067
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,479
And it counts as a convert
baptism, so.

1068
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:01,319
So let me ask you this does the
Provo mission tout that record

1069
01:09:01,319 --> 01:09:04,319
that they're the biggest
baptizing mission in the church?

1070
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:08,080
Oh yeah.
Even though the bulk of those

1071
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:13,600
are children.
Yeah, I know.

1072
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,840
It's it's like winning.
It's like winning a championship

1073
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,960
in a shortened season, right?
It's hard for me to like, I'm

1074
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,240
like, OK, I'll give it to you.
But you get an Asterix, right?

1075
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:26,080
Like there's, there's some
conditions here.

1076
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,439
So what?
What's that like though, 'cause

1077
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:33,279
like you guys just can't talk to
a nine year old, right?

1078
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,920
That's, I'm guessing, forbidden,
right?

1079
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:37,880
You got to talk to the whole
family, right?

1080
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:43,279
Yep, there's strict rules.
You do not want to be alone with

1081
01:09:43,359 --> 01:09:45,479
a child.
And that's, that's a good thing.

1082
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,479
Let me back up and say, Oh yeah,
that's a good thing.

1083
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:56,440
But in in this process, when you
say you're getting referrals,

1084
01:09:56,440 --> 01:09:59,640
are these parents calling,
calling the missionaries or

1085
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:03,000
calling the local ward saying
hey, my kid really needs to be

1086
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:07,640
baptized but he's 9?
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1087
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:11,320
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1088
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:15,240
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1089
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:17,360
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1090
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:21,800
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1091
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:26,120
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1092
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:30,520
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1093
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,480
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1094
01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:37,920
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Click the link in this episode's

1095
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:42,160
show notes today.
You do not want to be alone with

1096
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:44,440
a child.
And that's, that's a good thing.

1097
01:10:44,440 --> 01:10:47,400
Let me back up and say, Oh,
yeah, that's a good thing.

1098
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:54,640
But in in this process are when
you say you're getting

1099
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,800
referrals, are these parents
calling, calling the

1100
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:01,200
missionaries or calling the
local ward saying hey, my kid

1101
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:03,480
really needs to be baptized but
he's 9.

1102
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:09,760
Most of the time it is extended
family members and ward

1103
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:14,320
leadership.
So like the the aunts and uncles

1104
01:11:14,440 --> 01:11:18,880
of the unbaptized child, or you
know, your Bishop or your elder

1105
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:21,320
squorum president.
People are pretty who are pretty

1106
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:23,840
involved and aware of what's
going on in the community.

1107
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:28,920
OK.
And then when is there an effort

1108
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:32,720
to reactivate the parents as you
did through this process?

1109
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:37,760
So 'cause ideally, I mean,
ideally what you'd want to see

1110
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:40,440
is, is that dad kind of step up
to those priesthood

1111
01:11:40,440 --> 01:11:43,240
responsibilities so he could
baptize his child, right?

1112
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:50,960
How often is that the case?
So the attitude on that is very

1113
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:55,680
much our job is to baptize and
it's the Ward's job to

1114
01:11:55,960 --> 01:12:01,720
reactivate and retain, right?
That that's what was instilled

1115
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:03,680
in me.
And that's that's kind of the

1116
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:05,480
attitude of a lot of people in
the mission.

1117
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:10,640
But I will say more often than
not, you see a nine year old get

1118
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:15,120
baptized and then you see a
brief like reactivation of the

1119
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,880
whole family for maybe a couple
of months to a couple of years

1120
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:21,480
and then they slip back in
inactivity.

1121
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,000
For whatever.
OK.

1122
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,000
And so you're starting to see
this first hand, Yes.

1123
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:33,840
How are you feeling about this?
I, I have a lot of feelings

1124
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:39,920
about it.
Really the, the first thing that

1125
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:44,680
comes to mind is, is just that I
don't feel like I'm really doing

1126
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:49,400
anything of value here, right?
Especially in a community where

1127
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:51,960
everybody knows the church,
right?

1128
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:59,040
I it's not even like we're,
we're in one of the more gentile

1129
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:04,200
heavy parts of Utah, like out,
out in, I forget the name of it,

1130
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:10,880
but you, you know, like eastern
Utah and in, in the deserts S

1131
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:13,880
South of the basin, right.
There are a lot of non Mormon

1132
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:16,240
people there that aren't super
familiar with the church.

1133
01:13:16,440 --> 01:13:20,920
But in the basin, everybody is
like you knock on the door,

1134
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:22,760
people have an opinion about the
church.

1135
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:28,040
Right.
It's very difficult to be like,

1136
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:31,680
hey, I know that missionaries
have talked to you 50 times in

1137
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:36,400
your lifetime and you grew up
next to Mormons and you have a

1138
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:41,280
really decent grasp on what we
believe and how we behave as a

1139
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:45,920
people.
But I am as a 19/20 year old,

1140
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:48,360
inviting you to reconsider your
entire worldview.

1141
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:57,120
You know, it's, it's not
impossible, but very quickly I

1142
01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:01,520
realized how ineffective of a
tactic that is.

1143
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:04,320
Like it's, it's not efficient at
all.

1144
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:11,160
And, and then when you are
getting baptisms right, the

1145
01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:16,080
retention rate is not that high.
And there were meetings that we

1146
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:19,680
had, right once, once every
transfer, which was appeared

1147
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:22,680
about a month and a half, you
would go back to Provo in the

1148
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:26,280
mission home and you would have
a meeting where the mission

1149
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:29,760
president kind of gave you
certain things to consider

1150
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:32,520
throughout, throughout your
work, right?

1151
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:38,000
And there were whole talks that
he gave about retention.

1152
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:43,640
And they were all just so
numbers based.

1153
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:48,080
That was the other thing that
that kind of made my ears pin up

1154
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:50,800
a little bit.
There was so much emphasis on

1155
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:55,040
numbers, right?
We were setting goals for how

1156
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:57,240
many people we wanted to
baptize.

1157
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:02,960
We were, we were setting, you
know, retention goals and all of

1158
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:06,600
these sorts of things.
And goals are not a bad thing at

1159
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:09,480
all.
But it definitely feels very

1160
01:15:09,480 --> 01:15:12,720
different when you're making a
goal about people's eternal

1161
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,720
welfare.
Let me ask you this question.

1162
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:21,800
How are they expecting you to
affect retention, right?

1163
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:28,680
Because really that, that's not
something that I would think

1164
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:30,680
they'd want to pin on you guys,
'cause you guys are going to

1165
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,480
leave, right?
I mean, the missionary show up,

1166
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:38,000
they do the job, they teach,
maybe they baptized and then in

1167
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:41,880
a few months they're getting
transferred, right?

1168
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:44,280
So what?
What kind of onus were they

1169
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:49,200
putting on you for retention?
So there's a couple of things

1170
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:52,000
about retention.
Like like I mentioned, there is

1171
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:54,560
definitely the attitude that
that's mostly a ward

1172
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:57,200
responsibility, but there are
certain things that the

1173
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:00,880
missionary is supposed to do to
strengthen the Ward's efforts.

1174
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:04,880
One of those things was what we
call the twice in Wyatt, which

1175
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:08,200
is basically you get them
baptized and then within the

1176
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:12,680
following week you want to go on
a temple trip with them and then

1177
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,400
if they're a male, have them
baptize you.

1178
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,360
And they actually tracked
statistics about this.

1179
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:24,560
If you if you did this, I think
the number was like they were

1180
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:30,280
63% more likely to be active in
the next year, right?

1181
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:33,440
So there were there were little
things that they had kind of

1182
01:16:33,440 --> 01:16:37,960
identified and then pointed out
to missionaries to be like, hey,

1183
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:40,520
look out for this.
Be sure to do this.

1184
01:16:41,440 --> 01:16:44,360
OK, All right.
That's, that's fascinating.

1185
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:50,360
So how what's your feeling like
knowing that, as you stated

1186
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:53,200
before, a lot of these families
are just going to slip right

1187
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:55,920
back into inactivity?
Are you feeling like you're

1188
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:57,880
doing a good thing?
Do you think that maybe you're

1189
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:00,960
setting a kid up for, for
failure a little bit?

1190
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:04,680
I mean, what's your thoughts?
So my first companion, I

1191
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:09,080
actually had a, a pretty lengthy
conversation about this because

1192
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:14,760
I, I definitely started to get
the feeling that we were, we

1193
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,160
were definitely setting them up
for failure.

1194
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:20,600
And he was like, well, at the
end of the day, they're making a

1195
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:22,800
covenant with God that would
bring them closer.

1196
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:25,440
They're 9.
Exactly.

1197
01:17:25,440 --> 01:17:29,400
They're nine, right?
Look at 9 years.

1198
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:34,720
Look at nine years old.
If it's up to you, you're going

1199
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:37,520
to have chocolate cake for every
single meal you eat.

1200
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:46,160
You were in no position to be
the the lone driving force of

1201
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:49,120
your spiritual destiny, right.
You need some backup from your

1202
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:52,120
folks.
Now are there are there cases

1203
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:55,480
that are different that are that
are you know, you just have that

1204
01:17:55,480 --> 01:17:57,600
one kid who just really enjoys
it.

1205
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:01,400
Yeah, absolutely.
But by and large that kids going

1206
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:05,360
to turn 12 figure out video
games and it's going to be over

1207
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:11,080
if the parents aren't involved.
So the idea that Oh well, we're

1208
01:18:11,080 --> 01:18:14,640
at least let them partake of a
covenant, Well, yes, that is

1209
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:17,960
true, but that could be to their
detriment as well, right?

1210
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:22,760
You've you've moved them from a
neutral place to a different.

1211
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:26,520
One Yep.
And you know it.

1212
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:31,120
I, I pulled out this scripture
and in the Doctrine of

1213
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:35,560
Covenants, it talks about he who
receives the greater light also

1214
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:38,000
receives the greater
condemnation, right?

1215
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:42,240
If we're shoveling these ill
prepared people into receiving

1216
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:45,840
these ordinances that at the end
of the day, they don't fully

1217
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,400
understand what are we doing to
them, right?

1218
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:53,440
We're, we're putting them in a
position where they're making

1219
01:18:53,440 --> 01:18:58,080
agreements that a lot of times
they don't fully wrap their

1220
01:18:58,080 --> 01:18:59,520
heads around, right?
They're.

1221
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:01,560
Children.
Yes.

1222
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,280
Yes.
And not not just the children

1223
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:07,600
there were there were adults
that we baptized too.

1224
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:10,760
It's not like every baptism is a
nine year old, but there is a

1225
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:14,680
very hefty portion that are
right what?

1226
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:20,840
Would you say like 8020?
I'd say like maybe 6040.

1227
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:26,560
OK, OK.
And it's, it's skewed by the

1228
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:30,040
area as well, right?
In like Duchesne, your only

1229
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:32,160
baptisms are going to be 9 year
olds, right?

1230
01:19:33,160 --> 01:19:38,320
Duchesne, during the transfers
that I was there, I think they

1231
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:43,280
baptized like two adults and
then eight or nine kids.

1232
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:46,920
Gotcha there.
There are different areas and

1233
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:50,360
there's kind of kind of a
counterexample of that.

1234
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:55,440
There's a Asian, a Provo, Asian
American area where they're

1235
01:19:55,440 --> 01:19:59,400
interacting with a lot of adult
immigrants, so they baptize a

1236
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:00,800
lot of adults.
OK.

1237
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:03,080
All right.
Gotcha.

1238
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:08,120
Gotcha.
OK, So that's kind of the

1239
01:20:08,120 --> 01:20:11,560
Roosevelt area, right?
And now, is that the only area

1240
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:16,600
you end up serving in?
So I actually opened up an area

1241
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:19,640
on my mission while I was in the
MTC.

1242
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:21,480
And this is this is actually
kind of interesting.

1243
01:20:21,480 --> 01:20:24,640
I should have brought it up
earlier the day, a couple of

1244
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:28,600
days before I left, I had this
dream that I was on a

1245
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:34,440
reservation and I was teaching a
bunch of Native American people

1246
01:20:34,440 --> 01:20:36,280
about the gospel of Jesus
Christ.

1247
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:44,480
And there was like, like the
spirit of ancient me fight there

1248
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:47,320
and I woke up.
Well, hold on, One of my

1249
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:51,240
companions at the MTC was
actually with me in the dream.

1250
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:56,040
And then I woke up and I talked
to that companion that I had and

1251
01:20:56,040 --> 01:21:00,760
I told him, I said at some point
in the mission, I don't know how

1252
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:02,960
it's going to happen, but we're
going to be together and we're

1253
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:07,280
going to be on a reservation.
I dream about it and it's it's

1254
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:12,000
going to play out like that.
And so the area that I open up

1255
01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:17,240
is actually the Roosevelt Native
American area.

1256
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:23,520
So it's specifically like four
people that are of Native

1257
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:27,640
American descent because they
are not active at all.

1258
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:31,720
And the Native American
community within the church has

1259
01:21:31,720 --> 01:21:36,280
voiced the opinion that they
would be more likely to be

1260
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:39,120
active if they had a branch of
their own.

1261
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:41,000
So that's exactly what the
church did.

1262
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:45,640
I was a missionary that
specifically assigned to that

1263
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:49,920
branch and I opened up the area
with a zone leader.

1264
01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:59,080
What was that like?
Out of all I I had four

1265
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:02,840
companions on my mission.
I didn't stay for super duper

1266
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:08,640
long and he was my companion for
two transfers and out of all of

1267
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:16,120
them he was my most difficult.
It it was a struggle opening up

1268
01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:21,840
that particular area with him
because there was very much a, a

1269
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:25,320
close minded attitude towards
the people that we're helping,

1270
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:26,800
right?
Gotcha.

1271
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:36,600
A certain rejection of their
traditions that made it not

1272
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:40,000
very, very difficult to work
with them, right?

1273
01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:45,760
Sure, sure.
So our what kind of what kind of

1274
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:49,760
success do you have on the rez?
So actually a lot, believe it or

1275
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:57,200
not, right, there's this man
that was out in a, a little

1276
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:03,000
place called Rendlet, which was
just outside of Roosevelt, about

1277
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:07,840
2025 minutes away.
Most of the population there

1278
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:14,320
were, were natives.
And I, I, I went up to him and I

1279
01:23:14,320 --> 01:23:18,080
felt kind of inspired to just
talk, talk to him about the Book

1280
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:22,640
of Mormon.
So I did and I pulled it out and

1281
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:27,720
I asked him if if he believed in
Jesus Christ.

1282
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:34,320
And he started talking to me
about how in the sweat lodges

1283
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:38,880
they talk about Jesus and that
Jesus came and visited his

1284
01:23:38,880 --> 01:23:44,240
ancestors.
And that he, he believed that

1285
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:49,920
his cultural traditions were a
reflection of what Jesus Christ

1286
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:52,920
had taught his ancestors and
that there were certain portions

1287
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:56,600
that came from him.
And I was like, that's actually

1288
01:23:56,640 --> 01:23:59,720
awesome because that's what this
book is all about.

1289
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:05,840
And he actually went on to say
that none of this was written

1290
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:08,600
down.
He's like, all of this happened,

1291
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:11,320
but none of it is written down.
And I'm like, what if I told you

1292
01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:14,680
it was written down?
This is it right here.

1293
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:21,520
And he took it and he, he read
it and he, this is the thing

1294
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:24,040
that happens, right?
Because a lot of them are super

1295
01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:27,520
open to the idea that they're
descendants of Israel and that

1296
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:29,760
Jesus Christ visited their
ancestors.

1297
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:35,240
But when it comes to like,
authority claims and what that

1298
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:40,080
means about their broader
traditions, right?

1299
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:43,080
That's that's where things get a
little bit screwy because

1300
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:46,200
they're like, yeah, I believe in
the Book of Mormon, but I also

1301
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:53,160
believe that a, a, a wolf
created the earth, right?

1302
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:56,400
So there's, there's like a weird
dichotomy there where they're

1303
01:24:56,400 --> 01:25:00,160
willing to, yes, this, but also
this.

1304
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:05,400
And that's where it became very
difficult with my companion

1305
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:08,760
because he did not approach that
charitably at all.

1306
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:11,320
And see you, you would have to
approach that, right?

1307
01:25:11,320 --> 01:25:17,080
Because just like with anything,
I imagine that stories all, you

1308
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:19,520
know, they all have some, some
sort of symbology in them,

1309
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:22,640
right?
And and I would think it would

1310
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:25,200
be one of those things that
would be incumbent upon the

1311
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:28,960
mission to really educate the
missionaries and saying, when

1312
01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:31,640
you encounter this, these are
some of the parallels that you

1313
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:33,960
can draw to help drive this
home.

1314
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:36,600
And I feel like none of that was
taken into account either,

1315
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:37,720
right?
No.

1316
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:42,600
So let me, let me ask you this,
as you had guys come in or

1317
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:47,600
families come in, Do you feel
like that the branch was good

1318
01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:50,720
about preserving?
Cuz look, I'm a, I'm a guy who

1319
01:25:50,720 --> 01:25:54,920
believes that when someone joins
the church and, and for too

1320
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:59,760
long, I think it's been this way
that you should come in and you

1321
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:05,040
should give up your, your
identities kind of, right?

1322
01:26:05,040 --> 01:26:07,880
Which in some ways is good.
I want to say this, right?

1323
01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:12,240
It was certainly good to give up
the identity of who I was before

1324
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:14,680
I became a Mormon, right?
There were certain things that

1325
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:17,680
weren't healthy or weren't good
that I had to let go of.

1326
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:20,360
However, I don't think you
should have to necessarily give

1327
01:26:20,360 --> 01:26:25,040
up your whole culture, right?
Not everybody should be cut out

1328
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:27,920
and turned into the same dude
who looks like he lives in

1329
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:32,720
Provo, UT, right.
So with that, was there any sort

1330
01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:37,560
of push to be like, OK, we have
to incorporate their culture

1331
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:42,640
with the gospel so that we, you
know, we, we allow them to be

1332
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:45,960
who they are, but still help
them to realize they're a child

1333
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:49,320
of God, that they have worth
that, that, you know, their

1334
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:55,200
heritage isn't completely at
odds with with the teachings of

1335
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:59,080
the restoration.
Was there any effort by the

1336
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:04,920
local ward or branch, excuse me,
or the mission or the state to

1337
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:11,360
to help facilitate that?
So yes, the the way that it

1338
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:16,840
really began was they were sure
to call explicitly Indian

1339
01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:20,520
leadership, right?
So everybody in the branch, the

1340
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:23,480
elders, Corn president, the
Relief Society president, the

1341
01:27:23,480 --> 01:27:25,680
Bishop Rick, all of them were
Indians.

1342
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:33,480
We sat in on pretty much every
single branch council meeting

1343
01:27:33,480 --> 01:27:37,320
that there was because they had
a lot of helpful tips and to be

1344
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:40,480
honest with you, they were our
in into the community because

1345
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:46,000
most Native American people
aren't really amicable Torrance

1346
01:27:46,280 --> 01:27:50,280
listening to some white collared
white boys that come knocking on

1347
01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:52,800
their door.
So when we had them set things

1348
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:56,120
up for us, people were a lot
more ready to listen.

1349
01:27:56,120 --> 01:28:01,360
But that's besides the point.
They had kind of competing

1350
01:28:01,360 --> 01:28:06,440
philosophies about how to do
that right, because they they

1351
01:28:06,440 --> 01:28:10,120
all the people that were put
into the leadership.

1352
01:28:10,120 --> 01:28:14,000
We're Indian, yes, But at the
same time, they kind of came

1353
01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:17,440
from different backgrounds of
Indian, right?

1354
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:21,200
One of them was half Indian,
half white.

1355
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:25,280
And he talked a lot about how
growing up was hard because they

1356
01:28:25,280 --> 01:28:27,040
would always call him like a mud
blood.

1357
01:28:27,040 --> 01:28:30,880
And there was, there was like a
racial prejudice and he didn't

1358
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:37,800
really like care to adapt a lot
of Native American things into

1359
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:39,360
it.
Like he wasn't opposed to it,

1360
01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:44,960
but he wasn't like, yeah, let's,
you know, make this like, like

1361
01:28:44,960 --> 01:28:47,240
an actual Indian heritage word,
right?

1362
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:51,480
And then there on the other side
of the spectrum, there, there

1363
01:28:51,480 --> 01:28:58,800
was a he's one of the last
remaining like born and bred Ute

1364
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:02,600
speakers, right?
He's like writing books and

1365
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:05,800
stuff because it's almost an
extinct language and he wants to

1366
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:08,360
make sure that it's able to
survive on.

1367
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:11,760
And he's carrying on all of
these cultural traditions and

1368
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:13,680
tales.
And he's doing like you said,

1369
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:18,200
and trying to explain to the
people that he feels don't

1370
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:20,640
understand.
And then the actual symbology

1371
01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:23,400
and how it points to the Gospel
of Jesus Christ instead of

1372
01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:29,200
taking away from it.
So there's there's kind of a

1373
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:32,640
differing philosophy among the
branch leadership about how

1374
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:36,920
exactly to approach that.
But generally the attitude was

1375
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:40,400
to try to integrate elements of
Native American culture into the

1376
01:29:40,400 --> 01:29:42,360
branch, which I thought was
super cool.

1377
01:29:42,800 --> 01:29:48,000
OK, good, good.
All right, so now we're going

1378
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:55,080
to, to get into how you, how
your, your fundamentalist

1379
01:29:55,080 --> 01:29:59,160
leanings start to play a factor,
but I want to take a real quick

1380
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:01,280
break and then we'll jump right
back on.

1381
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:05,200
All right.
So how your, so, so you have all

1382
01:30:05,200 --> 01:30:09,040
these experiences with your, you
know, in, in the mission you,

1383
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:12,160
you've been to Roosevelt, you're
baptizing a lot of children.

1384
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:19,000
You open up this new area for
for the the reservation out

1385
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:24,880
there and you've talked a little
bit about that, but now is this

1386
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:26,720
the last area of your mission
you'll be in?

1387
01:30:27,440 --> 01:30:32,600
Yes, Sir.
OK, so during this time, how

1388
01:30:32,960 --> 01:30:35,160
'cause you have some
fundamentalist leanings, right?

1389
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:40,000
And it sounds like you're,
you're pretty, pretty dead set

1390
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:42,520
on, on, on these, right?
These, these are something

1391
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:44,720
you're going to hold dear, but
you're not necessarily going to

1392
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:49,400
try to preach them, right?
But that's hard to do, right?

1393
01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:52,920
So what?
When do the conflicts start to

1394
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:58,120
happen?
So when they really, really come

1395
01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:02,480
into view is around General
Conference season, right?

1396
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:10,360
What year this it was.
Shoot, it was earlier this year

1397
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:12,720
it was.
April 2024.

1398
01:31:13,160 --> 01:31:20,400
Yeah, April 2024.
And there's a huge push on the

1399
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:24,120
mission for the missionaries to
be inviting people to watch

1400
01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:30,080
General Conference and to boldly
testify that God still speaks to

1401
01:31:30,080 --> 01:31:33,120
prophets on the earth today.
And that these are the people

1402
01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:37,240
that are prophets and they, they
talk to God directly and they're

1403
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:41,800
his mouthpiece.
And they can never if if we want

1404
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:47,480
advice, we can go to them.
And I don't believe that, you

1405
01:31:47,480 --> 01:31:51,920
know, I just don't, I don't, I
don't think that they are.

1406
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:54,720
I don't, I don't think God is
speaking through them.

1407
01:31:55,960 --> 01:32:01,960
I think they've done a lot to to
leading people astray.

1408
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:07,720
I don't necessarily think
they're I'll intentioned, but I

1409
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:12,960
I think the state of a lot of
people in the church speaks to

1410
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:17,160
that.
So how does this begin to

1411
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:22,200
manifest?
Well, my companions will pass it

1412
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:27,200
to me because you know, you, you
want it to when you're on a

1413
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:30,760
mission, you want there to be
roughly 5050 you versus your

1414
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:34,080
companion talking.
And my companion will pass it to

1415
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:37,920
me with, with kind of like this
slant towards I want you to talk

1416
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:40,080
about general conference and
I'll take it a whole different

1417
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:45,440
direction before I do that.
And so it kind of became an

1418
01:32:45,440 --> 01:32:48,440
unspoken thing where he was
getting annoyed at me.

1419
01:32:48,480 --> 01:32:55,560
And eventually it it just kind
of culminated into.

1420
01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:58,120
Hold on, what?
What would you say there?

1421
01:32:58,120 --> 01:33:01,200
Because he's passed it to you
and he wants you to be like, OK,

1422
01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:03,040
pump up our boys in Salt Lake,
right?

1423
01:33:03,040 --> 01:33:05,200
Let him know these are the only
guys.

1424
01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:07,480
What?
What would you say instead of

1425
01:33:07,480 --> 01:33:11,000
that?
I would typically testify that

1426
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:15,840
God has restored His authority
to the earth and that we have

1427
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:19,480
access to talk with him directly
and that we can go to him in

1428
01:33:19,480 --> 01:33:24,120
prayer and we, we can, we can
hear him and that exists.

1429
01:33:24,400 --> 01:33:28,800
I didn't, I didn't testify this
part, but I it, it exists

1430
01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:30,760
outside of any authoritative
structure.

1431
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:35,240
You know, you don't, you don't
need a, a guy, an intermediary

1432
01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:37,240
to be telling us what to do all
the time.

1433
01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:42,760
Sometimes we can just go to him.
And and so did he ever like talk

1434
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:48,720
to you about this?
So I he was very passive

1435
01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:52,240
aggressive.
Which is a which which is that's

1436
01:33:52,240 --> 01:33:58,840
as Mormon as funeral potatoes
being yes, so so when he's

1437
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:01,920
passive aggressive, explain to
to to me what that would look

1438
01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:05,040
like.
It would be we're in a public

1439
01:34:05,040 --> 01:34:09,200
space at at like one of our P
day events with other

1440
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:13,360
missionaries and he'd be like,
oh, Mason has an authority

1441
01:34:13,360 --> 01:34:17,240
problem, but we're working on
that or or little just snide

1442
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:19,840
comments like that in front of
everybody you.

1443
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:22,240
Know what's that doing to you?
How do you feel when that when

1444
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:25,720
those remarks are made?
I don't really care, you know,

1445
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:29,560
like it's, it's, it annoyed me a
little bit, but it's, it's just

1446
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:35,040
like, OK, dude, I get it, Mr.
Zone Leader, you know, like it

1447
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:39,040
is what it is.
I, I'm, I'm still out here, you

1448
01:34:39,040 --> 01:34:41,400
know, I'm still out here doing
what's good.

1449
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:46,200
And at the end of the day, I, I
think you should respect at

1450
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:55,440
least that, right, 'cause I, I
still was trying to do good and,

1451
01:34:55,440 --> 01:35:01,360
and to some extent be obedient
to the rules that I was given,

1452
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:03,840
even though I was trapped in
between this place where I don't

1453
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:07,400
even really believe these are
inspired or necessary for me.

1454
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:10,920
But also, I know what I signed
up for and I don't want to be

1455
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:13,880
dishonest, right?
So I'm, it's, it's between a

1456
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:15,800
rock and a hard place.
You're conflicted.

1457
01:35:16,280 --> 01:35:22,360
Yes.
And so eventually, right, I'm

1458
01:35:22,360 --> 01:35:24,760
thinking about it.
I'm thinking about it.

1459
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:28,360
I'm doing the work, I'm going
about things, and there just

1460
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:33,840
comes a point where I realize
the companion that I have now,

1461
01:35:34,080 --> 01:35:35,920
right?
He's like a model for the

1462
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:41,120
mission.
The, the goal of the mission

1463
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:46,720
isn't necessarily to gain
converts.

1464
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:51,160
That's an ancillary benefit, but
the goal of the mission is to be

1465
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:57,120
a retention for the member
that's served and to train them

1466
01:35:57,120 --> 01:36:02,560
to think in a specific dynamic,
in a specific way that helps

1467
01:36:02,560 --> 01:36:06,440
them to reconcile the authority
truck structure of the church

1468
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:13,840
and as well to be integrated
into the the the kind of Mormon

1469
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:19,560
culture, right?
And I made that realization and

1470
01:36:19,560 --> 01:36:23,000
then I made that realization
that the model that they, they

1471
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:26,840
kind of want to push me into
being is more like my companion

1472
01:36:27,080 --> 01:36:28,760
that, that I'm, I have
currently.

1473
01:36:29,400 --> 01:36:31,040
And I, I don't really like that
guy.

1474
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:37,960
So I'm, I, I kind of realized,
well, why am I here?

1475
01:36:38,120 --> 01:36:43,360
If, if this is what this is for
and I don't want it, you know,

1476
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:47,040
and I pray about it and I pray
about it and I pray about him

1477
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:51,440
And, you know, I, I keep just
getting this feeling.

1478
01:36:51,440 --> 01:36:56,560
But at the same time, I've been
just so gung ho for so long

1479
01:36:56,880 --> 01:37:04,160
about going out and serving and,
and living this kind of monastic

1480
01:37:04,160 --> 01:37:07,600
lifestyle where all I'm doing is
studying the scriptures and

1481
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:09,560
helping people and teaching
people.

1482
01:37:09,960 --> 01:37:13,000
And that's something that you
don't want to give up on, right?

1483
01:37:14,160 --> 01:37:22,040
As flawed as it is and and as
frustrated it made me sometimes,

1484
01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:26,840
there was an aspect about it
that I, I truly did love and

1485
01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:31,320
that I did not want to leave
behind because I loved it.

1486
01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:35,440
But I prayed about it and I
prayed about him.

1487
01:37:36,240 --> 01:37:43,480
And each and every time I felt
the answer was that you need to

1488
01:37:43,480 --> 01:37:49,200
go home, that there there are
things that await you at home

1489
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:52,680
that are more important to your
eternal progression, and you

1490
01:37:52,680 --> 01:37:56,360
will better be able to raise
people up around you if you go

1491
01:37:56,360 --> 01:38:01,480
home.
And this is kind of a theme

1492
01:38:01,480 --> 01:38:04,040
throughout my story.
It took me a minute to listen.

1493
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:09,920
Because join the club, we all
have those, at least those

1494
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:11,920
moments.
And for guys like me, I tend to

1495
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:18,440
argue quite a bit, so I get it.
Yes, and the interesting thing

1496
01:38:18,440 --> 01:38:22,800
that happens around this time as
well is the missionary, my my

1497
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:27,800
second companion in the MTC that
I had the dream about us being

1498
01:38:27,800 --> 01:38:31,680
on the reservation together.
He comes to Roosevelt.

1499
01:38:33,400 --> 01:38:41,160
And so in my mind, I'm like,
well, this thing that I dreamed

1500
01:38:41,160 --> 01:38:43,840
about happened.
Is that a sign that I'm supposed

1501
01:38:43,840 --> 01:38:49,840
to continue staying here?
Was that like, am, am I, am I

1502
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:51,600
supposed to be staying here for
now?

1503
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:55,400
And because I, I had this vision
of this happening and now it's

1504
01:38:55,400 --> 01:39:03,040
come to fruition and I, I
continue to pray about it.

1505
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:09,000
And I, I actually went to the
Vernal Temple and that was the

1506
01:39:09,000 --> 01:39:11,560
final, like the, the final
thing, right?

1507
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:15,480
I went through an endowment
session and I was just like,

1508
01:39:17,240 --> 01:39:26,080
man, there's so much missing.
Like once you know and, and

1509
01:39:26,080 --> 01:39:30,840
you've internalized that
information, there's not really

1510
01:39:30,840 --> 01:39:35,720
any going back, you know?
And so I'm like, is this is this

1511
01:39:35,720 --> 01:39:38,640
is the thing that I'm having
people work towards with the

1512
01:39:38,640 --> 01:39:41,840
impression that it's the most
spiritually enlightening thing

1513
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:43,880
ever.
Not to say that it isn't

1514
01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:46,840
spiritually enlightening to a
lot of people, right?

1515
01:39:47,160 --> 01:39:51,600
There's there's great value even
in the endowment today, but it

1516
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:53,560
could be so much more.
Right.

1517
01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:59,400
And instead of being more,
further things are being

1518
01:39:59,400 --> 01:40:02,080
retracted.
And so I kind of have this

1519
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:05,640
realization where this is
supposed to be the pinnacle of

1520
01:40:05,640 --> 01:40:11,000
worship and it's just not.
And I go, I go to the, the

1521
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:14,680
celestial room in Vernal Temple
and I pray about it.

1522
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:22,000
And I, I basically feel the Lord
tell me that this isn't his

1523
01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:26,960
house and that he wouldn't be
able to come here, you know?

1524
01:40:27,480 --> 01:40:29,840
Oh, that's heavy.
That's heavy.

1525
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:35,600
Whoa.
That's when I knew I needed to

1526
01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:37,280
go.
So what?

1527
01:40:37,280 --> 01:40:41,960
What do you do from there?
I started drafting a resignation

1528
01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:49,200
letter that my companion finds.
Oh, yes.

1529
01:40:49,200 --> 01:40:56,120
So how does he find it?
I, I kept my journal physically

1530
01:40:56,120 --> 01:41:01,240
and digitally, right?
So I had this Word document that

1531
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:05,160
was, you know, Mason's journal
or whatever, and there was

1532
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:09,680
several entries.
And I was also writing it down

1533
01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:13,120
in there because I wanted a copy
that I would be able to keep

1534
01:41:13,520 --> 01:41:16,800
after the mission digitally, so
I would be able to send it over

1535
01:41:16,800 --> 01:41:24,400
to people who wanted to read.
And during the device audit, I

1536
01:41:24,400 --> 01:41:29,200
don't know why he felt the need
to, but he opened up the my

1537
01:41:29,200 --> 01:41:34,240
journal through a bunch of
entries and then finally got to

1538
01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:37,600
the resignation letter and then
read the whole way through.

1539
01:41:38,120 --> 01:41:41,080
And there's some pretty heavy
hitting stuff there.

1540
01:41:41,080 --> 01:41:46,000
I'm not gonna lie.
I, I quote the apostles a lot.

1541
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:49,720
There's quotes about how you
know, the church would lose its

1542
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:52,280
authority if it ever abandoned
plural marriage.

1543
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:57,520
There's Adam, Adam God quotes.
There's yeah, there's a whole

1544
01:41:57,520 --> 01:41:59,840
bunch of stuff in there and I
think it kind of broke my

1545
01:41:59,960 --> 01:42:01,560
chain's brain.
Yeah.

1546
01:42:01,560 --> 01:42:03,160
Do you still?
Do you still have that letter?

1547
01:42:03,600 --> 01:42:05,440
I do is.
That something you'd be

1548
01:42:05,440 --> 01:42:09,160
interested in sharing?
Yeah, we'll, we'll post it in

1549
01:42:09,160 --> 01:42:10,920
the show notes if someone wants
to read it.

1550
01:42:11,840 --> 01:42:16,200
OK.
So, so that's so dirty too.

1551
01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:20,240
That's like, it's like 1940s
Nazi Germany, right?

1552
01:42:20,240 --> 01:42:23,120
Like Ziff, you're is going to be
very unhappy.

1553
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:27,240
I can use things, right?
I mean, it doesn't it's, it's

1554
01:42:27,240 --> 01:42:29,880
not fantastic, right?
So what does he do with this?

1555
01:42:29,880 --> 01:42:34,160
Information So this this is kind
of the beginning of the end of

1556
01:42:34,160 --> 01:42:37,320
my mission, right?
It this is after the point where

1557
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:40,480
I know I need to go home.
I'm just kind of setting the

1558
01:42:40,480 --> 01:42:43,920
final things in order.
I wanted to leave on my own term

1559
01:42:43,920 --> 01:42:46,400
so things couldn't be said about
me.

1560
01:42:48,360 --> 01:42:52,280
And he he, so he kind of after
reading it, he just kind of sits

1561
01:42:52,280 --> 01:42:55,240
there for a minute and just
stares off into space.

1562
01:42:55,360 --> 01:42:57,280
And I'm like.
Did you know he was reading it

1563
01:42:57,320 --> 01:43:00,640
at the time?
I had an inkling.

1564
01:43:01,080 --> 01:43:03,920
I had an inkling.
OK, but you didn't go look over

1565
01:43:03,920 --> 01:43:07,360
his shoulder to see what he was
doing, you know, So you guys are

1566
01:43:07,360 --> 01:43:09,600
like sharing a laptop.
Is that kind of the deal?

1567
01:43:10,160 --> 01:43:14,000
So in in our mission, I think
this is a pretty standard

1568
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:17,080
mission practice, but in ours
they're very rigorous about it.

1569
01:43:17,560 --> 01:43:19,240
We have what's called a device
audit.

1570
01:43:19,440 --> 01:43:23,160
And so once every week your
companion needs to take your

1571
01:43:23,160 --> 01:43:26,600
phone and you need to take your
companion's phone and go through

1572
01:43:26,600 --> 01:43:31,880
everything that they have, their
photos, their Word documents,

1573
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:35,200
all all of this stuff.
And the intention really is

1574
01:43:35,200 --> 01:43:38,600
you're supposed to be looking
for pornography or or other

1575
01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:43,000
sorts of things like that, but
there are certain overbearing

1576
01:43:43,000 --> 01:43:47,080
people that use it as an
opportunity to Snoop on people's

1577
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:48,800
business.
Like Elder Adolf.

1578
01:43:50,360 --> 01:43:52,680
Yeah.
Got you.

1579
01:43:53,920 --> 01:43:57,400
And I, I, we actually had a
conversation about this before

1580
01:43:57,400 --> 01:43:59,600
this happened.
And I was like, yeah, do you

1581
01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:01,800
read through your companion's
Facebook messages?

1582
01:44:01,800 --> 01:44:05,680
And he's like, well, when you
sign up to be a missionary, you

1583
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:10,160
forfeit your right to privacy.
I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm glad to

1584
01:44:10,160 --> 01:44:12,800
know that someone who has that
mentality.

1585
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:14,440
So you knew that this was a
risk?

1586
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:18,120
I did.
I, I just, I did.

1587
01:44:18,360 --> 01:44:22,480
Honestly, I thought that the
journal entries ahead of it

1588
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:25,760
would, would leave me safe.
I didn't think he would Scroll

1589
01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:29,040
down to the last one and be
like, I wonder what he wrote

1590
01:44:29,040 --> 01:44:31,760
down in his journal tonight.
You know what I mean?

1591
01:44:31,760 --> 01:44:36,920
And so I did.
I didn't expect it, but at the

1592
01:44:36,920 --> 01:44:39,160
end of the day I didn't know
that it was a possibility.

1593
01:44:39,720 --> 01:44:43,160
OK, so he reads it and then what
happens from there?

1594
01:44:43,160 --> 01:44:44,800
He said he's just staring off
into space.

1595
01:44:44,800 --> 01:44:51,800
He broke his brain.
And then he goes, so is is this

1596
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:54,800
what you wanted to send everyone
when you left?

1597
01:44:55,920 --> 01:45:00,840
And I'm like, maybe?
Were you going to send it to

1598
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:03,200
everybody or were you just going
to give that to your mission

1599
01:45:03,200 --> 01:45:05,760
president or whoever you needed
to retire with?

1600
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:09,760
I was just going to give it to
my mission president and some of

1601
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:11,920
the missionaries that I knew
very, very well.

1602
01:45:12,560 --> 01:45:15,640
OK, gotcha.
I I didn't want to be like boom,

1603
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:19,640
see ya right.
It was more like a a somber like

1604
01:45:20,680 --> 01:45:23,080
I I can't do this anymore.
Here's why.

1605
01:45:23,480 --> 01:45:27,280
So kind of you, you wanted to
explain yourself if, and forgive

1606
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:32,840
me if I'm wrong, if in in in
summarizing this, you wanted to

1607
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:37,760
tell those closest to you on
your mission why you were doing

1608
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:40,400
what you were doing.
So they didn't think, oh, Elder,

1609
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:44,960
Elder Vogel just has a problem
with whatever, right?

1610
01:45:45,080 --> 01:45:48,840
Elder Vogel wants to go drink
coffee or Elder Vogel just

1611
01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:50,840
couldn't cut it or any of those
other things.

1612
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:53,680
You wanted to give a reason to
those who were closest to you on

1613
01:45:53,680 --> 01:45:56,280
the mission of why you were
checking out early.

1614
01:45:57,000 --> 01:46:00,200
Exactly.
OK, all right, So what?

1615
01:46:00,200 --> 01:46:02,000
What does he do with this
information?

1616
01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:08,280
Well, you know, we, he sits down
and we have a long conversation

1617
01:46:08,280 --> 01:46:11,640
where he's based.
He, he tries to counter a lot of

1618
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:18,560
the points I made in, in the the
goodbye letter, the resignation

1619
01:46:18,560 --> 01:46:23,840
letter by saying things like,
well, don't you think John

1620
01:46:23,840 --> 01:46:27,920
Taylor would have just sustained
whatever Wilford Woodruff did

1621
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:30,560
because he held the office of
profit at the time?

1622
01:46:30,920 --> 01:46:34,280
And I'm like, do you know who
Don W Taylor is, Right.

1623
01:46:35,120 --> 01:46:38,240
Well, and not to mention that's
a pretty short sighted view of

1624
01:46:38,240 --> 01:46:41,440
the history, right, 'cause we
know that Wilford Woodruff, he's

1625
01:46:41,440 --> 01:46:44,400
like, yeah, yeah, we're giving
up polygamy.

1626
01:46:44,920 --> 01:46:46,160
Yeah.
Right.

1627
01:46:46,240 --> 01:46:48,720
And then and then he's sending
out guys, right?

1628
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:51,680
And shout out to Michael Ness
for for doing all that research

1629
01:46:51,680 --> 01:46:53,280
that we talked about on this
podcast.

1630
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:57,680
So it's not like Wilford was
going in the exact opposite

1631
01:46:57,680 --> 01:47:00,000
direction that John Taylor was.
No.

1632
01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:05,880
And we we had a lengthy
conversation, but basically that

1633
01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:08,840
was the same day that we were
supposed to like write out our

1634
01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:15,240
emails to the mission president.
And he was writing his e-mail

1635
01:47:15,360 --> 01:47:19,000
for like an hour.
So I don't know what he said,

1636
01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:21,000
but I.
Copying and pasting yours then

1637
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:23,000
Elder Vogel writes for this.
Oh.

1638
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:24,880
No, and we were heading.
Into.

1639
01:47:24,880 --> 01:47:28,520
Provo like two days later.
So I'm like, oh man, I'm going

1640
01:47:28,520 --> 01:47:31,040
to get talking to about this in
Provo.

1641
01:47:31,360 --> 01:47:34,960
This is not how I wanted this to
go, but I didn't.

1642
01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:38,080
I, I'm not sure if the mission
president hadn't read it or if

1643
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:41,120
he didn't really want to talk to
me about it at the time or

1644
01:47:41,480 --> 01:47:47,320
whatever was going on, but you
know, I'm, I'm.

1645
01:47:47,320 --> 01:47:52,120
Kind of getting everything.
Ready to leave, but there's

1646
01:47:52,120 --> 01:47:56,760
still like a lingering feeling
of, you know, I'm, I'm giving

1647
01:47:56,760 --> 01:47:59,080
this up.
So I remember 1 morning.

1648
01:47:59,080 --> 01:48:02,160
I, I wrote a pros and cons list
as well.

1649
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:06,160
And I was like, OK, yeah, I did.
There's no denying this.

1650
01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:11,160
Like spiritually, reasonably,
intellectually, like it's this,

1651
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:17,600
this is the way to go.
And so I actually there's one

1652
01:48:17,600 --> 01:48:19,720
more incident that happens
before this.

1653
01:48:20,080 --> 01:48:28,800
It's our are so on the mission.
You wake up, you have breakfast.

1654
01:48:28,800 --> 01:48:32,280
Well, you work out, you have
breakfast and then you have a

1655
01:48:32,320 --> 01:48:38,040
personal study and a companion
study and then third hour

1656
01:48:38,040 --> 01:48:42,040
studies, if you're still a
trainee or a trainer, if

1657
01:48:42,760 --> 01:48:46,960
whatever.
And during during that period,

1658
01:48:46,960 --> 01:48:51,840
one morning we got done with
personal study and there during

1659
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:55,760
companion study, my companion
just sat there and then fell

1660
01:48:55,760 --> 01:48:59,840
asleep.
And then he woke up and then he

1661
01:48:59,840 --> 01:49:03,560
just kind of was staring off
into space, which I thought was

1662
01:49:03,560 --> 01:49:07,200
weird.
And then we got up to go invite

1663
01:49:07,200 --> 01:49:12,080
our our friend to church and we
went back to the apartment.

1664
01:49:12,480 --> 01:49:15,280
And I'm just on my phone reading
some of the Joseph Smith papers.

1665
01:49:15,920 --> 01:49:20,440
And was that allowable?
We're just OK, right?

1666
01:49:20,960 --> 01:49:25,040
I didn't know at the time,
right, But he.

1667
01:49:25,040 --> 01:49:27,560
Goes What are you?
Doing right?

1668
01:49:27,560 --> 01:49:33,280
Now, and I'm like I'm reading
the Joseph Smith papers.

1669
01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:37,880
And he's like.
Well, this is supposed to be

1670
01:49:37,880 --> 01:49:47,080
companion study time and I'm
like, you were sleeping, you

1671
01:49:47,080 --> 01:49:49,720
know, I'm like he and for
context, he had a.

1672
01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:53,040
Really like he he was.
Sick the day before and it was a

1673
01:49:53,040 --> 01:49:58,120
walking day and I think he got
all kinds of heated up and I was

1674
01:49:58,120 --> 01:50:03,360
being I thought charitable by
just letting him, you know,

1675
01:50:03,920 --> 01:50:08,520
sleep because obviously he
needed more sleep if he's still

1676
01:50:08,520 --> 01:50:13,760
sleeping right.
And he, he just kind of went off

1677
01:50:13,760 --> 01:50:17,000
on me for like not initiating
companionship study.

1678
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:19,440
And then I should have woken him
up and this, this and that.

1679
01:50:19,440 --> 01:50:24,600
And I'm like, dude, God doesn't
want you to not take.

1680
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:28,200
Care of your body.
Right, God gave you your body

1681
01:50:28,200 --> 01:50:33,360
to, to, to take care of it.
You're, you're supposed to treat

1682
01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:36,760
it with respect and dignity.
If you need rest, you need to

1683
01:50:36,760 --> 01:50:43,600
take a rest, right?
And then he, he, he just kind of

1684
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:48,680
went off and off.
I I think he was feeling a lot

1685
01:50:48,680 --> 01:50:55,200
of mixed emotions because.
Like I said, I I, I, I feel.

1686
01:50:55,200 --> 01:50:57,080
Like I was a fairly decent
missionary.

1687
01:50:58,720 --> 01:51:01,720
I think he was feeling mixed
emotions from that and the fact

1688
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:04,880
that I was getting increasingly
more difficult to work with

1689
01:51:04,880 --> 01:51:08,160
because it it just wasn't
working out for me.

1690
01:51:08,760 --> 01:51:14,240
And he was like trying to
reasonably convince me that that

1691
01:51:14,240 --> 01:51:20,240
the prophets are are are true
successors to Joseph Smith and

1692
01:51:20,240 --> 01:51:25,440
and trying to employ all of
these like if this, then that

1693
01:51:25,440 --> 01:51:31,360
style of argumentation, dude,
you're, you're not getting it

1694
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:34,840
right.
You, you, you're not catching

1695
01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:40,480
the vision here.
And it, it was just kind of

1696
01:51:40,480 --> 01:51:43,880
awkward and frustrating.
And then at the very end, he's

1697
01:51:43,880 --> 01:51:47,520
like, well, if you're reading
the Joseph Smith papers right

1698
01:51:47,520 --> 01:51:49,000
now, what are you even getting
out of it?

1699
01:51:49,560 --> 01:51:54,240
And I'm like, I'm gaining
historical context for the

1700
01:51:54,240 --> 01:51:59,400
doctrines that we teach to see
how foundational they are and

1701
01:52:00,800 --> 01:52:03,440
whether there's actual backing
to them.

1702
01:52:03,480 --> 01:52:04,840
And he's.
Like that's useless.

1703
01:52:05,160 --> 01:52:07,440
That's useless.
There's no point in that and

1704
01:52:07,440 --> 01:52:12,000
it's not allowed.
I'm like OK dude, OK.

1705
01:52:12,600 --> 01:52:15,440
General rule of thumb if you're
usually not allowed to read the

1706
01:52:15,440 --> 01:52:18,800
founder of the movement.
That you're espousing, that's a

1707
01:52:18,800 --> 01:52:22,000
red flag.
See, the other crazy thing about

1708
01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:26,280
that is we were only allowed to.
Read the Book of Mormon and

1709
01:52:26,280 --> 01:52:29,120
preach my gospel.
Not even Jesus the Christ.

1710
01:52:30,240 --> 01:52:33,040
Not during personal study.
You can read that in your own

1711
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:34,400
free.
Time which is like.

1712
01:52:34,840 --> 01:52:39,320
Lunch.
Dinner and 30 minutes before you

1713
01:52:39,320 --> 01:52:43,200
go to bed.
But during the time that they

1714
01:52:43,200 --> 01:52:46,360
actually designate for your
studies, those are the only two

1715
01:52:46,360 --> 01:52:48,960
books you're allowed to read.
Not the doctrine of Covenants,

1716
01:52:49,680 --> 01:52:56,600
not the Bible, just the Book of
Mormon and the the Preach My

1717
01:52:56,600 --> 01:52:59,320
Gospel that they have set up for
missionaries.

1718
01:52:59,320 --> 01:53:03,480
So there were certain books of
scripture that you were not.

1719
01:53:03,480 --> 01:53:05,680
Allowed to read on your mission?
Yep.

1720
01:53:08,360 --> 01:53:09,960
Wow.
That was.

1721
01:53:10,400 --> 01:53:12,200
That was the first thing that
kind of.

1722
01:53:12,640 --> 01:53:14,400
Hit me because they they said
that on.

1723
01:53:14,400 --> 01:53:19,240
The like the first day on the
mission, I I got up and I was

1724
01:53:19,240 --> 01:53:21,840
like, I love the Doctrine and
Covenants.

1725
01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:24,720
It is my favorite book of
Scripture and I think it's so

1726
01:53:24,720 --> 01:53:27,280
slept on.
And immediately afterwards, one

1727
01:53:27,280 --> 01:53:31,880
of the APS, the assistance to
the president, is like, yeah, so

1728
01:53:32,720 --> 01:53:37,120
we actually can't read that
during personal study, but it is

1729
01:53:37,120 --> 01:53:41,760
very insightful.
And I was like, what is this guy

1730
01:53:41,760 --> 01:53:43,480
talking about?
You know what I mean?

1731
01:53:43,920 --> 01:53:47,320
Right.
And that came down from the area

1732
01:53:47,320 --> 01:53:50,560
of presidency, right?
So that's, that's not like a a,

1733
01:53:50,760 --> 01:53:54,800
it is a mission specific rule,
but it's a mission specific rule

1734
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:59,000
that comes down from Salt Lake
pretty much, right.

1735
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:01,000
So that's.
Crazy to me.

1736
01:54:01,040 --> 01:54:01,960
Holy.
Cow.

1737
01:54:02,440 --> 01:54:04,320
Yeah, because that really tells.
You what?

1738
01:54:04,320 --> 01:54:07,400
The church.
Is supposed to be today, right?

1739
01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:11,080
And so I, I guess I could kind
of understand it doesn't make it

1740
01:54:11,080 --> 01:54:14,000
right, but I, I can, I can kind
of understand it because it's

1741
01:54:14,000 --> 01:54:17,600
like we don't want to conflict
these missionaries, so to speak.

1742
01:54:18,800 --> 01:54:20,840
Too much meat in the doctrine of
governance.

1743
01:54:21,920 --> 01:54:25,640
OK, so you go through that, your
mission.

1744
01:54:25,960 --> 01:54:30,400
Companion, he discovers your
resignation letter, what happens

1745
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:36,440
then so.
We go to Provo.

1746
01:54:36,880 --> 01:54:40,320
We kind of have a standard zone
meeting, zone conference

1747
01:54:40,320 --> 01:54:42,560
meeting.
The mission president doesn't

1748
01:54:42,560 --> 01:54:45,960
say anything.
My dad actually flies out to

1749
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:49,960
Arizona.
And so I'm like, OK, I'm, I'm

1750
01:54:49,960 --> 01:54:52,560
just going to make this easy on
president here.

1751
01:54:52,560 --> 01:54:56,640
I'm just going to have him come
over here and pick me up and

1752
01:54:56,640 --> 01:54:59,240
then I'll go home, right?
So, so you've.

1753
01:54:59,280 --> 01:55:01,000
Kept your dad and your mom in
the loop.

1754
01:55:01,320 --> 01:55:05,080
Yes, OK.
If I'm I'm technically.

1755
01:55:05,080 --> 01:55:07,880
Not supposed to be communicating
with them, but if I'm planning

1756
01:55:07,880 --> 01:55:09,840
on leaving, my family should
know, right?

1757
01:55:10,280 --> 01:55:15,040
Right.
But you know, I, I, I let my

1758
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:16,720
dad.
Know and I'm like OK I'm.

1759
01:55:16,720 --> 01:55:19,840
Going to, I'm going to talk to
my mission president then.

1760
01:55:20,160 --> 01:55:25,800
So I'm like, hey, president, I
need to go home.

1761
01:55:26,120 --> 01:55:30,240
You know, and I, and I, I, I
don't really touch on why I,

1762
01:55:30,240 --> 01:55:32,760
just because this is over
Facebook Messenger and it's

1763
01:55:32,760 --> 01:55:35,720
like, why I'm not going to be
like, hey, president, I'm a

1764
01:55:35,720 --> 01:55:38,640
fundamentalist Mormon.
Now I need to go home, right?

1765
01:55:38,760 --> 01:55:42,920
You know, So I'm just like, I'm,
I, I need to go home.

1766
01:55:42,920 --> 01:55:45,720
And I let him know my dad is an
Arizona and he can pick me up

1767
01:55:45,720 --> 01:55:49,640
tomorrow and we can drive or we
could drive up the Provo and

1768
01:55:49,760 --> 01:55:53,600
give my companion a, a
replacement companion or however

1769
01:55:53,600 --> 01:55:56,720
he wants to do that.
And my mission presence is like,

1770
01:55:56,720 --> 01:55:58,760
hold on, hold on.
There's a whole process that you

1771
01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:00,680
need to go through and this,
this and that.

1772
01:56:00,680 --> 01:56:04,920
I'm like, OK, so wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait.

1773
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:08,440
You're an adult, right?
If you wanted to be.

1774
01:56:08,440 --> 01:56:10,800
Done.
At that moment, there's nothing

1775
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:13,040
preventing you from doing that.
I know.

1776
01:56:14,080 --> 01:56:16,400
That's that's why I was kind of
annoyed.

1777
01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:19,640
Because it was two weeks from
that point that I went home OK?

1778
01:56:19,920 --> 01:56:23,160
So he says there's a whole
process he doesn't try to.

1779
01:56:23,160 --> 01:56:25,800
Counsel with you or anything
first on your concerns.

1780
01:56:26,200 --> 01:56:30,480
So he does, right?
What what happens is.

1781
01:56:30,520 --> 01:56:36,640
He comes in to Roosevelt 'cause
he's already planning to and all

1782
01:56:36,640 --> 01:56:40,240
of our districts get together.
We have breakfast with him and

1783
01:56:40,240 --> 01:56:42,880
then we have one-on-one
interviews with the president,

1784
01:56:42,880 --> 01:56:46,600
right?
And I'm the last one.

1785
01:56:48,080 --> 01:56:49,840
He he.
He specifically wants to.

1786
01:56:49,840 --> 01:56:57,000
Talk to me and we sit down and
he's like, so honestly, I'm kind

1787
01:56:57,000 --> 01:57:00,000
of shocked that you you're
wanting to go home.

1788
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:07,960
You know, it's it's kind of a
lot to process 'cause.

1789
01:57:07,960 --> 01:57:08,960
I thought you're doing well as
a.

1790
01:57:08,960 --> 01:57:15,520
Missionary you know you're
adapting well and and you know

1791
01:57:15,520 --> 01:57:19,520
we you you would have made a
good leader and this this and

1792
01:57:19,520 --> 01:57:25,160
that and he's like so what's
going on and I.

1793
01:57:25,160 --> 01:57:30,360
Basically just tell him.
Straight I'm like, I think the

1794
01:57:30,360 --> 01:57:33,040
church hasn't been what it.
Should be pretty much since.

1795
01:57:33,040 --> 01:57:39,520
1890 You know, I I think issuing
the manifesto was a mistake and

1796
01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:40,840
that.
The words of Wilfred.

1797
01:57:40,840 --> 01:57:43,560
Woodruff were fulfilled when he
told the Quorum of the 12.

1798
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:47,240
If we abandoned this principle,
then we will be forced to

1799
01:57:47,240 --> 01:57:49,960
abandon more because now we
don't even understand the

1800
01:57:49,960 --> 01:57:53,760
character of God.
We don't understand the the

1801
01:57:53,760 --> 01:57:56,520
teachings of our founding
prophets.

1802
01:57:57,320 --> 01:58:00,280
We don't, we don't even
understand our own theology

1803
01:58:00,280 --> 01:58:02,920
anymore because it's moved
around so much.

1804
01:58:05,440 --> 01:58:09,200
And he, he kind of, he, he
basically kind of hits me with

1805
01:58:09,200 --> 01:58:13,280
the, well, where are you going
to go?

1806
01:58:14,040 --> 01:58:18,560
Yeah, He he's like, are you
going to join a polygamous cult

1807
01:58:18,560 --> 01:58:20,440
like that?
That those were his word.

1808
01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:28,160
And I'm like, well, you know, at
at this point, I don't know.

1809
01:58:28,160 --> 01:58:30,840
Where it is.
I just know that it's not here,

1810
01:58:31,760 --> 01:58:33,680
right?
And I, I was, I was frank with

1811
01:58:33,680 --> 01:58:35,680
him, with that.
And he was like, well, there

1812
01:58:35,680 --> 01:58:36,040
are.
So.

1813
01:58:36,040 --> 01:58:39,200
Many things that testify this is
the place, you know, Brigham

1814
01:58:39,200 --> 01:58:42,440
Young said One day there will be
temples that dot the Salt Lake

1815
01:58:42,440 --> 01:58:46,080
Valley name other one other
church that, that that has

1816
01:58:46,080 --> 01:58:49,400
fulfilled that.
And I'm like, maybe it hasn't

1817
01:58:49,400 --> 01:58:54,560
been fulfilled yet, right?
And he's, he just kind of looks

1818
01:58:54,560 --> 01:58:57,240
at.
Man, and he's like.

1819
01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:01,400
I'm not going to.
Try to to.

1820
01:59:01,400 --> 01:59:03,440
Argue with you, but I will tell
you.

1821
01:59:03,920 --> 01:59:07,880
He's like I, I come from a
Lebaron family.

1822
01:59:08,000 --> 01:59:12,520
Apparently his wife was an
Allred and he's like, it didn't

1823
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:17,240
work for for us, but I
understand that you know that.

1824
01:59:17,240 --> 01:59:18,680
Well, it didn't work for my
family.

1825
01:59:18,720 --> 01:59:21,000
Not not him or his wife in
particular.

1826
01:59:21,640 --> 01:59:25,080
They didn't grow up
fundamentalist, but but their,

1827
01:59:25,160 --> 01:59:29,960
some of their family was.
And you know, he, he's like, I

1828
01:59:29,960 --> 01:59:32,560
understand this is part of your
spiritual journey and I, I

1829
01:59:32,560 --> 01:59:35,120
respect that, But I, I think
you're making a great mistake.

1830
01:59:35,720 --> 01:59:40,600
And you know, I, I appreciated
that part of it, but I, I kind

1831
01:59:40,600 --> 01:59:43,720
of thought it was funny that he
was, where are you going to go?

1832
01:59:43,720 --> 01:59:45,920
A polygamist cult, you know,
right.

1833
01:59:47,320 --> 01:59:50,640
So what we we left on?
Good terms.

1834
01:59:50,680 --> 01:59:53,360
And he calls.
Me the next day and he says my

1835
01:59:53,360 --> 01:59:55,200
stake president would like to
speak with me.

1836
01:59:56,040 --> 02:00:01,120
And honestly, out of the whole
process, this was the hardest.

1837
02:00:01,120 --> 02:00:04,440
Part because I.
I do love my mistake President.

1838
02:00:04,440 --> 02:00:08,720
He's a good man.
He's a good man.

1839
02:00:10,080 --> 02:00:11,600
So.
He said.

1840
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:16,880
My my mission president
basically said, hey, he wanted

1841
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:17,920
to.
Share with you some.

1842
02:00:17,920 --> 02:00:20,560
Of his research and I was like,
I'm going to be honest with you.

1843
02:00:20,560 --> 02:00:24,840
I'm, I'm pretty sure about what
I'm going to do, but I'm, I'm

1844
02:00:24,840 --> 02:00:27,440
willing to hear him out, which
is good, right?

1845
02:00:27,440 --> 02:00:29,440
You want to get both sides of
that story?

1846
02:00:29,880 --> 02:00:34,560
Yeah.
And we call my.

1847
02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:36,560
State President calls me and we
talk.

1848
02:00:36,560 --> 02:00:42,360
For about an hour and a half.
And really it just boils down to

1849
02:00:42,680 --> 02:00:46,960
the I I think there's an
interesting.

1850
02:00:48,280 --> 02:00:50,760
Parallel that you can.
Draw between the way

1851
02:00:50,760 --> 02:00:54,160
Christianity has developed and
the way Mormonism has developed

1852
02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:59,200
you The the episode that came
out this week for the podcast

1853
02:00:59,200 --> 02:01:01,840
actually touches on it.
But I've, I've been talking

1854
02:01:01,840 --> 02:01:06,000
about this for a while as well.
You know, there's the the

1855
02:01:06,440 --> 02:01:11,960
mainstream LDS church is a lot
like Catholicism because it's

1856
02:01:11,960 --> 02:01:15,720
the biggest, it's the most
wealthy, it's the most

1857
02:01:15,720 --> 02:01:20,520
influential, it's historically
the most prominent, and it has

1858
02:01:20,520 --> 02:01:25,920
one definitive guy that they can
point to and say this guy,

1859
02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:28,080
whatever he says when speaking
in a.

1860
02:01:28,080 --> 02:01:32,600
Concert and capacity.
Goes right and it basically

1861
02:01:32,600 --> 02:01:36,960
boiled down to all of those same
points he's like I remember

1862
02:01:36,960 --> 02:01:39,840
there's one specific thing that
he told me that stands out

1863
02:01:39,840 --> 02:01:44,080
because I I think it's a hellish
doctrine he says, you know

1864
02:01:44,080 --> 02:01:49,080
basically there is one person
who.

1865
02:01:49,080 --> 02:01:52,840
Presides over the priesthood.
At any given point and no matter

1866
02:01:52,840 --> 02:01:56,720
what he does, no matter how much
you may disagree with it, no

1867
02:01:56,720 --> 02:02:00,800
matter even if it is wrong, if
you separate yourself from that

1868
02:02:00,800 --> 02:02:04,920
man, you will lose blessings not
only for yourself, but for your

1869
02:02:04,920 --> 02:02:07,400
family, and you will lose them
and for eternity.

1870
02:02:08,080 --> 02:02:13,680
And I was like, I, I, I love
this man.

1871
02:02:14,840 --> 02:02:17,280
But that's an evil doctrine,
right?

1872
02:02:17,280 --> 02:02:19,000
There's there's.
No other way of putting.

1873
02:02:19,000 --> 02:02:22,880
That that's just that's wrong.
Yeah, Yeah.

1874
02:02:22,880 --> 02:02:28,000
No, I I hear you and.
That's that's really all there

1875
02:02:28,000 --> 02:02:28,960
was to it.
And then?

1876
02:02:29,480 --> 02:02:34,000
I, I tried to get him to like
understand the actual Adam God

1877
02:02:34,000 --> 02:02:37,480
theology and it, it was just
kind of talking in circles

1878
02:02:37,480 --> 02:02:40,920
because he, I don't, he wasn't
really getting what I was

1879
02:02:41,520 --> 02:02:44,480
putting down.
Yes, and.

1880
02:02:45,640 --> 02:02:48,280
And so I was I.
I just kind of left it at that.

1881
02:02:48,320 --> 02:02:51,440
And then from that point, it
took another week before I got

1882
02:02:51,440 --> 02:02:56,280
sent home because he didn't fill
out the papers for me to get

1883
02:02:56,280 --> 02:02:59,240
sent home until he had the time
to the mission president.

1884
02:02:59,920 --> 02:03:02,800
And then my stake president had
to confirm it.

1885
02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:06,680
But after my stake president
confirmed it, I think they must

1886
02:03:06,680 --> 02:03:09,720
have read through it and said,
Oh my gosh, this guy's a

1887
02:03:09,720 --> 02:03:11,760
liability.
He needs to get home as soon as

1888
02:03:11,760 --> 02:03:15,440
possible because the day after
the papers were submitted, I was

1889
02:03:15,440 --> 02:03:18,840
on my way home and the mission
president told me that typically

1890
02:03:18,840 --> 02:03:27,520
takes a week.
So, OK, So what your parents

1891
02:03:27,520 --> 02:03:29,680
think about all this?
Are you honest with them when

1892
02:03:29,680 --> 02:03:32,360
you say, hey, man, I you know,
I'm leaving the mission and it's

1893
02:03:32,360 --> 02:03:36,320
not because it's too Mormon Y,
it's because it's not Mormon Y

1894
02:03:36,320 --> 02:03:38,400
enough, right?
I mean, what are you telling

1895
02:03:38,400 --> 02:03:42,120
your parents at this point?
I'm being honest, you know I'm.

1896
02:03:43,960 --> 02:03:46,400
I'm being straightforward with
them because.

1897
02:03:47,000 --> 02:03:49,680
There's there's no.
Other way to be eventually I'm

1898
02:03:49,680 --> 02:03:52,600
going to have to have that
conversation with them at some

1899
02:03:52,600 --> 02:03:56,560
point in my life because
religion is a very potent

1900
02:03:56,720 --> 02:04:00,840
element of my life.
And one day it's going to come

1901
02:04:00,840 --> 02:04:02,800
up.
So why not talk about it now,

1902
02:04:02,800 --> 02:04:07,040
right?
And their reaction, I, I think

1903
02:04:07,040 --> 02:04:10,040
they're at first is more happy
that I'm coming home than

1904
02:04:10,040 --> 02:04:14,560
anything, right?
But it it's, it's been somewhat

1905
02:04:14,560 --> 02:04:16,280
measured because there's that
element.

1906
02:04:16,280 --> 02:04:20,560
Of like.
I'm glad you're being free

1907
02:04:20,560 --> 02:04:24,080
thinking and that you're you're
kind of separating yourself from

1908
02:04:24,080 --> 02:04:28,200
this, this structure that forces
you to think a certain way.

1909
02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:33,720
But at the same time, I think,
you know, naturally there's

1910
02:04:33,720 --> 02:04:37,400
there's a certain degree of
uncomfortable uncomfortableness

1911
02:04:37,560 --> 02:04:43,480
associated with fundamentalism,
even still given my family, just

1912
02:04:43,480 --> 02:04:47,600
stemming from, you know, things
that happened and like Short

1913
02:04:47,600 --> 02:04:51,280
Creek and with Warren Jeffs,
those sorts of things.

1914
02:04:52,560 --> 02:04:55,560
Sure.
So you get sent home.

1915
02:04:56,360 --> 02:04:58,480
Right now.
How old are you at this point?

1916
02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:03,040
I just turned 20.
OK, so you're 20 years old.

1917
02:05:03,080 --> 02:05:04,040
You get.
Home.

1918
02:05:06,160 --> 02:05:08,320
What do you do next?
Right, 'cause you're in.

1919
02:05:08,320 --> 02:05:12,040
Tennessee.
It's not necessarily a hotbed of

1920
02:05:12,040 --> 02:05:16,880
fundamentalist activity, right?
So what what happens next?

1921
02:05:18,520 --> 02:05:21,080
I got baptized.
I kind of proceeded from there.

1922
02:05:21,520 --> 02:05:24,160
What was the baptism?
Like the second second time

1923
02:05:24,160 --> 02:05:28,280
around.
So I I enjoyed that it was in

1924
02:05:28,280 --> 02:05:30,360
living.
Water especially, as opposed to

1925
02:05:30,400 --> 02:05:33,720
a font.
I noticed some distinctions in

1926
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:36,480
the manner of the ordinance,
which I thought were very

1927
02:05:36,920 --> 02:05:39,720
intriguing.
But the most pressing thing

1928
02:05:39,720 --> 02:05:43,840
about it is that there wasn't
anyone that was trying to make

1929
02:05:43,840 --> 02:05:48,080
me feel a specific way about it.
Because in when I was baptized

1930
02:05:48,080 --> 02:05:50,040
the first time, there's very
much this.

1931
02:05:50,600 --> 02:05:53,840
Everyone is telling you, you are
the cleanest person on Earth

1932
02:05:53,840 --> 02:05:56,240
right now.
Like everyone is like, you are

1933
02:05:56,240 --> 02:06:01,160
so, so clean.
And, and there's just a constant

1934
02:06:01,160 --> 02:06:04,400
positive reinforcement of, of
what just happened.

1935
02:06:04,880 --> 02:06:09,120
But while there, everyone there
was supportive, it didn't feel

1936
02:06:09,120 --> 02:06:12,520
like overly we want you to feel
a specific way.

1937
02:06:13,240 --> 02:06:18,360
And that that made me feel
number one more at peace and #2

1938
02:06:19,520 --> 02:06:22,720
just generally allowed me to be
alone with.

1939
02:06:22,720 --> 02:06:24,320
My own feelings and.
Thoughts.

1940
02:06:25,480 --> 02:06:27,520
What were your thoughts and
feelings after that?

1941
02:06:29,440 --> 02:06:31,480
That I made the right choice
and.

1942
02:06:32,080 --> 02:06:35,880
You know re.
Baptism is an ordinance is, is a

1943
02:06:35,880 --> 02:06:39,280
true principle of the gospel.
And I, I felt that confirmed to

1944
02:06:39,280 --> 02:06:43,160
me as well because I, there are
certain things that I didn't set

1945
02:06:43,160 --> 02:06:48,680
on my mission that I felt like I
needed to repent for, because I,

1946
02:06:48,800 --> 02:06:53,160
I was withholding the fullness
from people and for providing a

1947
02:06:53,160 --> 02:06:55,960
stepping stone that would be
useful to some, right?

1948
02:06:56,400 --> 02:07:01,840
But at the end of the day, I
believe I was committing a sin

1949
02:07:01,840 --> 02:07:06,120
of omission.
And so I, I, I felt forgiven.

1950
02:07:06,800 --> 02:07:09,240
Gotcha.
Could you and and I'm just

1951
02:07:09,240 --> 02:07:12,800
curious.
Could you tell a difference in

1952
02:07:12,800 --> 02:07:18,640
like and?
I won't taint you with mine, but

1953
02:07:19,800 --> 02:07:26,160
was there a difference in like?
I'm just going to call the only.

1954
02:07:26,240 --> 02:07:28,920
Way I know how to.
Did it feel more legit?

1955
02:07:30,040 --> 02:07:34,040
Than the first time around see.
It did.

1956
02:07:34,840 --> 02:07:37,880
It did.
There there were certain aspects

1957
02:07:37,880 --> 02:07:43,040
about the first one that were
that will always be special to

1958
02:07:43,040 --> 02:07:44,320
me.
You know, like my my.

1959
02:07:44,320 --> 02:07:47,480
Uncle he baptized.
Me, and I'm going to value that.

1960
02:07:47,760 --> 02:07:52,520
But at the end of the day, being
baptized the second time did

1961
02:07:52,520 --> 02:07:57,320
feel like it was done with more
binding authority, if that.

1962
02:07:57,320 --> 02:07:58,400
Makes sense.
OK.

1963
02:07:58,800 --> 02:08:02,240
All right.
And then you also said that you.

1964
02:08:02,360 --> 02:08:05,160
You had the priesthood
reconfirred on you there, right?

1965
02:08:06,440 --> 02:08:10,240
OK, I'm going to ask.
You for your.

1966
02:08:10,240 --> 02:08:14,920
Experience in maybe the weeks
and months after that because

1967
02:08:14,920 --> 02:08:18,080
I've had a couple other people
tell me something and I want.

1968
02:08:18,080 --> 02:08:18,920
To see if it's.
Right.

1969
02:08:20,280 --> 02:08:24,640
What happened after that re the
the reordination to the

1970
02:08:24,640 --> 02:08:26,920
priesthood?
What what you know, what was

1971
02:08:26,920 --> 02:08:28,880
your spiritual life like after
that?

1972
02:08:28,880 --> 02:08:34,320
Explain that to me so I felt a
greater degree.

1973
02:08:34,320 --> 02:08:41,800
Of opposition in my life, Ryan.
I felt like that's probably not

1974
02:08:41,800 --> 02:08:43,880
the best way to put it.
I felt like the Lord was

1975
02:08:43,880 --> 02:08:45,400
trusting.
Me with more.

1976
02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:52,320
Difficult tasks that I needed to
be able to be at the helm for.

1977
02:08:52,720 --> 02:08:58,760
I felt like he was priming me
for the future that he needed

1978
02:08:58,760 --> 02:09:01,280
from me.
You know the the character

1979
02:09:01,280 --> 02:09:02,480
qualities.
That he wanted me to.

1980
02:09:02,480 --> 02:09:06,920
Develop and I still feel like
I'm kind of in, in, in that

1981
02:09:07,000 --> 02:09:12,040
space where I'm being faced with
these challenges that are

1982
02:09:12,480 --> 02:09:18,520
specifically designed to develop
certain certain qualities that

1983
02:09:18,560 --> 02:09:21,560
are beneficial to a bearer of
the priesthood.

1984
02:09:22,320 --> 02:09:28,680
OK, I've talked to some guys who
said that once they had RE.

1985
02:09:30,120 --> 02:09:33,640
Reordination that that like they
started getting more promptings

1986
02:09:33,640 --> 02:09:34,960
they.
Started feeling, you know,

1987
02:09:34,960 --> 02:09:36,560
having.
More dreams, that sort of thing.

1988
02:09:36,560 --> 02:09:41,920
Did you experience any of that?
I've, I've always been a bit of

1989
02:09:41,920 --> 02:09:45,400
a dreamer, you know?
I picked that up, yeah.

1990
02:09:46,400 --> 02:09:50,120
So I I wouldn't necessarily.
Say more, but I would say more

1991
02:09:50,120 --> 02:09:51,240
vivid.
For sure.

1992
02:09:52,320 --> 02:09:55,760
All right.
Interesting SO.

1993
02:09:55,760 --> 02:09:59,240
As as you've gone through this
process, now where?

1994
02:09:59,240 --> 02:10:01,320
Where does that leave you now?
What are you doing now?

1995
02:10:03,560 --> 02:10:05,320
Spiritual wise or just in
general?

1996
02:10:05,320 --> 02:10:06,360
Life wise?
Both.

1997
02:10:08,000 --> 02:10:10,960
Spiritually, you know I'm I'm
preparing to receive the.

1998
02:10:11,400 --> 02:10:16,360
The fullness of the endowment.
You know, I'm, I want to receive

1999
02:10:16,360 --> 02:10:19,320
that ordinance.
I want to have the garments

2000
02:10:19,320 --> 02:10:24,280
made, the garments of the Holy
priesthood put upon me in their

2001
02:10:24,280 --> 02:10:26,680
proper order and in their proper
organization.

2002
02:10:27,240 --> 02:10:33,240
I want to experience the same
ordinance that my father's did,

2003
02:10:33,240 --> 02:10:35,960
and then the same ordinance that
is done on other worlds.

2004
02:10:38,640 --> 02:10:42,680
I'm really just looking to
progress.

2005
02:10:42,680 --> 02:10:46,560
In life you.
Know continue on the career path

2006
02:10:46,560 --> 02:10:53,280
that I've established and create
a a viable way for me to provide

2007
02:10:53,560 --> 02:10:59,000
for myself and and a future
family and also somebody to

2008
02:10:59,000 --> 02:11:01,600
create a family with.
Very cool.

2009
02:11:02,320 --> 02:11:05,320
Do you feel like you're just as
much as on fire for the gospel?

2010
02:11:05,320 --> 02:11:10,360
Now, as you were back in the LDS
church, I'd say probably more.

2011
02:11:11,000 --> 02:11:14,120
OK, what I know.
Being a missionary was.

2012
02:11:14,120 --> 02:11:16,040
Important to you?
What are you doing as far as?

2013
02:11:16,040 --> 02:11:18,480
Those efforts out there in
Tennessee where you live.

2014
02:11:19,320 --> 02:11:22,960
So there are there are a couple
of things I've had the

2015
02:11:22,960 --> 02:11:25,040
opportunity to.
Reach out to a lot.

2016
02:11:25,040 --> 02:11:30,200
Of people online.
There's also a Facebook profile

2017
02:11:30,200 --> 02:11:37,640
group called Mormon
Fundamentalist of Tennessee, but

2018
02:11:38,840 --> 02:11:42,080
like on.
Online outreach has.

2019
02:11:42,160 --> 02:11:43,920
Really been?
The only thing that I I.

2020
02:11:43,920 --> 02:11:45,760
Have been able to do.
You're working.

2021
02:11:45,960 --> 02:11:50,320
You're working full time too.
Yeah, we'll post a link to that.

2022
02:11:51,720 --> 02:11:55,000
That Facebook group, because I
think, I think those are helpful

2023
02:11:55,000 --> 02:11:56,880
in the sense it gives.
People an opportunity.

2024
02:11:56,880 --> 02:12:01,720
To connect, it keeps you
involved in the work and and you

2025
02:12:01,720 --> 02:12:04,240
know, probably just isn't
Tennessee either, right?

2026
02:12:04,240 --> 02:12:06,560
There's probably surrounding
states that people could go to

2027
02:12:06,560 --> 02:12:09,120
on that, but we'll, we'll post a
link to that.

2028
02:12:09,640 --> 02:12:14,480
So overall, and and this is
where I think I want to wrap up

2029
02:12:14,480 --> 02:12:18,560
because that brings us to today.
I got a couple questions to wrap

2030
02:12:18,560 --> 02:12:21,800
up with.
First, what do you feel like you

2031
02:12:21,800 --> 02:12:27,560
gained out of your LDS mission?
I feel like I gained.

2032
02:12:28,480 --> 02:12:30,360
A deeper respect for the
fullness of the.

2033
02:12:30,360 --> 02:12:35,920
Gospel and also an understanding
that even the milk and honey can

2034
02:12:35,920 --> 02:12:38,520
be useful in leading people to
the fullness.

2035
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:43,960
OK, looking back, have you
regretted?

2036
02:12:44,040 --> 02:12:45,840
At.
All your decision.

2037
02:12:46,800 --> 02:12:49,800
To leave your mission and become
a fundamentalist?

2038
02:12:51,040 --> 02:12:55,200
No, not really.
You know, I, I.

2039
02:12:55,240 --> 02:12:59,280
I.
I often look back on what I

2040
02:12:59,280 --> 02:13:04,120
experienced in the Vernal Temple
and you know what, once you're

2041
02:13:04,120 --> 02:13:07,160
told something like that and
once you go through an endowment

2042
02:13:07,160 --> 02:13:10,360
and you're just like, man,
there's, there's so much more

2043
02:13:10,360 --> 02:13:12,840
that I'm missing out on.
There's, there's really not,

2044
02:13:14,120 --> 02:13:16,840
there's no going back from that,
right?

2045
02:13:17,200 --> 02:13:18,360
Right now.
I understand.

2046
02:13:19,800 --> 02:13:23,560
Do you do you feel like?
You're happier or less happier

2047
02:13:23,560 --> 02:13:25,000
with the decisions that you've
made.

2048
02:13:25,920 --> 02:13:28,920
Like if you had to compare and
contrast between the LDS mission

2049
02:13:28,920 --> 02:13:31,160
and this, which one are you
happier with?

2050
02:13:33,840 --> 02:13:36,320
See that's that's an interesting
one, because I.

2051
02:13:36,320 --> 02:13:38,520
I think in certain areas of my
life.

2052
02:13:38,880 --> 02:13:43,160
I was a little bit happier on
the mission, but at the same

2053
02:13:43,160 --> 02:13:47,040
time, I wasn't as fulfilled on
my mission, right?

2054
02:13:47,840 --> 02:13:53,200
I was happier because
socializing was easy.

2055
02:13:54,360 --> 02:13:57,000
I was teaching people all day,
right?

2056
02:13:58,240 --> 02:14:00,960
But I lacked fulfillment because
I wasn't teaching people the

2057
02:14:00,960 --> 02:14:02,880
things that I believed
necessarily.

2058
02:14:03,760 --> 02:14:10,760
So at the end of the day, I I
would say quality of life is

2059
02:14:10,760 --> 02:14:14,640
better, but I, I probably felt.
A more.

2060
02:14:14,640 --> 02:14:19,920
Simple joy then gotcha, gotcha.
If you could do it all over

2061
02:14:19,920 --> 02:14:25,040
again, would you do it the same?
Way Oh yeah, 100% awesome.

2062
02:14:25,720 --> 02:14:27,680
All right, dude, we're.
Going to end with this, I'm

2063
02:14:27,680 --> 02:14:29,840
going to totally put you.
On the spot, because you got to

2064
02:14:29,840 --> 02:14:33,080
get used to this, because it's
this is how it works in

2065
02:14:33,080 --> 02:14:35,880
fundamentalist circles.
Bear your testimony, brother.

2066
02:14:37,480 --> 02:14:43,880
Well, I know that.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

2067
02:14:44,560 --> 02:14:46,680
I know that he came down.
As as a.

2068
02:14:46,680 --> 02:14:51,520
Condescension of of God and he
atoned for the world.

2069
02:14:52,280 --> 02:14:56,440
I know that he gave his life so
that we can pattern our own

2070
02:14:56,440 --> 02:15:01,440
individual lives after his
example and have the opportunity

2071
02:15:01,440 --> 02:15:04,440
to attain to the same station
that he now stands in.

2072
02:15:05,280 --> 02:15:10,120
I know that Joseph Smith was
called to be his prophet, to

2073
02:15:10,120 --> 02:15:14,440
restore the most sacred elements
of the truth that had been lost

2074
02:15:14,440 --> 02:15:16,360
to the world for thousands of
years.

2075
02:15:17,440 --> 02:15:23,320
I know that Brigham Young was
called to be his successor and

2076
02:15:25,040 --> 02:15:28,400
that he was a He's a good man,
those put.

2077
02:15:28,400 --> 02:15:31,080
Into a very.
Arduous position.

2078
02:15:32,600 --> 02:15:39,280
I know that God is.
Our Heavenly Father, and that he

2079
02:15:39,280 --> 02:15:44,240
is Adam.
Who walked the earth in its most

2080
02:15:45,280 --> 02:15:51,040
earliest days, and that we are
his descendants and that he has

2081
02:15:51,040 --> 02:15:52,280
a great.
Love and.

2082
02:15:52,280 --> 02:15:57,240
Care for each and every one of
us, and that if we truly seek

2083
02:15:57,240 --> 02:16:00,240
out for him, one day we will be
like him.

2084
02:16:02,880 --> 02:16:04,560
Beautiful.
Good stuff.

2085
02:16:05,320 --> 02:16:07,760
Well, man.
I'm going to be watching Real.

2086
02:16:07,760 --> 02:16:12,320
Closely 'cause I, I think you
got a lot to offer the community

2087
02:16:12,320 --> 02:16:15,000
at large.
I think you're a well spoken

2088
02:16:15,000 --> 02:16:18,040
young man and I, I think you got
nothing but bright stuff ahead.

2089
02:16:18,440 --> 02:16:21,680
And let's, let's do this.
Well, of course we're going to

2090
02:16:21,680 --> 02:16:24,000
do this again 'cause you're
helping me on the podcast now.

2091
02:16:24,400 --> 02:16:27,080
I mean, I couldn't like when,
when Mason let me know, yeah,

2092
02:16:27,080 --> 02:16:29,920
man, I'm off my mission.
And it's kind of because I heard

2093
02:16:29,920 --> 02:16:32,680
your podcast.
I was like, well, crap, if I

2094
02:16:32,680 --> 02:16:35,639
break it, I buy it.
So Mason's going to be on the

2095
02:16:35,639 --> 02:16:40,480
podcast from here on out helping
me more kind of running, running

2096
02:16:40,480 --> 02:16:43,879
Google for me a little bit as as
we need to Fact Check things as

2097
02:16:43,879 --> 02:16:47,680
we go along.
Hopefully at one point get him

2098
02:16:47,680 --> 02:16:50,680
so I can take a vacation.
I mean, I really want to try to

2099
02:16:50,680 --> 02:16:53,639
take a vacation, but I need a
substitute from time to time.

2100
02:16:54,000 --> 02:16:58,400
So Mason will, will, will be
filling that role here, here,

2101
02:16:58,680 --> 02:17:01,680
You know, we'll we'll play it by
ear, but he's going to be

2102
02:17:01,680 --> 02:17:03,240
filling in for me from time to
time.

2103
02:17:03,680 --> 02:17:08,480
But Mason, it was good stuff.
Obviously, we'll keep in touch.

2104
02:17:08,480 --> 02:17:11,719
And yeah, dude, that was good
stuff.

2105
02:17:11,920 --> 02:17:14,040
Anything else you want covered
before I sign off?

2106
02:17:15,639 --> 02:17:17,200
No, Sir.
All right.

2107
02:17:17,280 --> 02:17:19,040
Awesome.
Well dude, it was fun.

2108
02:17:20,240 --> 02:17:21,680
We'll plan on seeing you the
next time.

2109
02:17:21,680 --> 02:17:24,200
I record.
OK, All right.

2110
02:17:24,400 --> 02:17:57,840
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2111
02:17:57,840 --> 02:17:59,280
Renegade podcast.