Episode #148: Schisms & Splinter Groups In Ancient Christianity & Connection To The Modern Mormon Landscape

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Sometimes as people, when we
encounter a problem, we tend to

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look forward and try to get
perspective on the issue we are

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facing.
Now that's not a bad thing, but

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sometimes however, the
perspective we desire is found

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behind us.
Now let's look at Mormonism.

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Could it be that perhaps other
religious traditions have gone

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through something similar that
Mormonism has with splits from

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the mainstream that has led to
different groups and churches?

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Well, today I have Justin
Frankamon to talk about the

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split that happened in early
Christianity that led to the

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development of what today is
known as Eastern Orthodox

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Christianity.
In our conversation, we cover

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the history of the early
Christian Church, then move on

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to discuss the reasons and
doctrinal disagreements that

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precipitated that split.
We then draw very interesting

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connections between the split
that happened almost 2000 years

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ago to what has happened in
Mormonism today.

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That should give us the
perspective we need to move

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forward.
Finally, we wrap up by talking

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about the opportunities moving
forward that just might help the

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various groups and independents
find common ground while

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allowing us to disagree more
agreeably.

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And that's next on this episode
of the Mormon Renegade Podcast.

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You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Dude this is the first one we've

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done in person.
Yeah.

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I was thinking about that today.
I was like, wait, have I done

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with one with him in person?
And I don't think we ever have.

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I think by the time I think the
first one we started doing, you

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were still up there in Morgan.
Yeah, I was in Utah still.

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You were in Utah and then and
then you were like out to

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Missouri like months after that,
right?

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So everything after that had
been had been pretty much

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online.
So yeah, kind of a momentous

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opportunity here.
First one in person.

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Right, pretty fun.
So dude, when you hit me up

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about this, this one particular
subject, I found it fascinating

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and I found it fascinating
because it, it has some

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parallels to us today, right?
And I think it's very

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applicable.
And I'm a big believer in, you

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know, we need to learn from
those things because if we

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don't, we're going to do the
same crap.

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Because I don't believe humanity
changes a ton.

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It changes a little bit, but
those same habits, those same.

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Human nature.
Doesn't change.

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It doesn't change, right?
But anyway, so you went deep

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into like the Eastern Orthodox
Church and the Catholic Church

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and the split that happened
there, right?

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Right.
All right, go ahead.

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OK, well, I guess first, you
know, I maybe I should share why

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I started looking into it.
I was looking at kind of I'm,

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I'm usually looking at kind of
big picture things and big

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picture, I was wondering what's
going on with Mormonism and

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fundamentalism.
Like, why can't we all get

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along?
It was one of those kind of

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questions.
That that I've been.

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Pondering for a long time, and I
had a dream one night after

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pondering that specific, those
kind of specific questions.

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And in that dream, there's a lot
of weird stuff going on.

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But primarily what I remember at
the very end of the dream was I

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was looking for something and
something had some answers that

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could explain what's happened
with Mormonism.

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And I was, that's what I was
looking for, right?

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And so I was going after it.
And at the very, very end of the

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dream, right before I woke up, I
find out that I'm looking for

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Peter, Peter, you know, the
apostle Peter.

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And I didn't, I woke up and
like, I don't know what that

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means.
What does that mean?

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Peter, what's, what's Peter have
to do with anything?

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And I was talking with a friend
about it and I chaired the dream

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a little bit.
And he suggested, well, have you

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ever looked into the Eastern
Orthodox Church?

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And I've, I've, I've, I'm pretty
familiar with Catholicism and,

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and Catholic theology, but I've,
I've like, I don't really know

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anything about the Orthodox
Church actually.

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Isn't that a Russian only
church?

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And so I started doing some
research and it just blew me.

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It blew me away.
It just really blew me away.

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And I found a lot of really,
really cool things, so.

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So what?
What'd you find?

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I mean, I guess we should start
at the beginning, right?

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Right, right.
So now I guess I should be

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clear.
I am not an expert in this

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history.
I'm not, you know, most of the

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information I'm getting is, you
know, you know, YouTube and

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books written by various, you
know, well, they call Saints and

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things.
And so I don't claim to be an

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absolute expert in this, right?
But I, I found some stuff that's

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very applicable to Mormonism,
right?

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And that's what I wanted to
focus on is the application

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into, into Mormonism more so
than necessarily like, 'cause

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I'm not really qualified to
speak on, you know, the Eastern

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Orthodox theology.
I'm.

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Not I.
I'm just a I'm just a guy.

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Into this, right.
So, so maybe not so much and

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correct me if I'm wrong here,
not so much the theology versus

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the splits that happened, right?
Right.

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So that was what was really
fascinating.

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So I, it was kind of under the
presumption that you got the

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Catholic Church and the Eastern
Orthodox Church and the Eastern

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Orthodox Church is basically
Russian and a Russian state

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church.
And, you know, I, I really

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didn't know a whole lot about
it.

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And so I started doing some
research and I find out that the

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Eastern Orthodox Church really
encompasses a whole body of

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churches.
It's not just the Russian,

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there's, there's a Greek
Orthodox, there's Ukrainian

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Orthodox, there's Romanian
Orthodox, there's just all these

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different churches.
And to be honest, it's hard to

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talk about them specifically
because, well, in general,

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because they're different, but
they all fall under the heading

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of the Eastern Orthodox Church
and they all recognize each

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other.
And that was the first thing

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that really kind of blew me away
was the organizational structure

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of that.
OK, so let me ask some questions

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about that real quick, 'cause if
there's one thing, Mormons and

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Catholics, kind of especially
LDS folks, one thing that they

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have in common is that they're
highly organized, higher, highly

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hierarchical, right?
So with an Eastern Orthodox, is

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there one guy that they they all
say this dude's above reproach,

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so to speak, or not necessarily
above reproach, but this dude,

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when he talks, he's the boss.
Right.

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And that's what was surprising
because no, OK, I assume there

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must have been, I, I assumed it
must probably be some guy in

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Russia, right?
But it turns out that the the

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Orthodox Church has patriarchs
and these patriarchs are

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supervisory over a variety of
different churches which are

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headed up by bishops.
And their version of the history

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of, of Christianity is that this
is the original structure, that

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Peter and the original apostles
were basically kind of in an

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advisory role.
And they set up independent

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churches with bishops.
And their role was more of kind

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of a directing role, but the
churches were kind of

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independent.
So it was kind of like a

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franchise model.
Yeah, like a franchise.

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And I thought that was kind of
fascinating because I mean, I

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look at the writings of of Paul,
for example, and we think of

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Paul as an apostle.
And yet in all the writings of

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Paul, you don't really see Paul
like saying, hey, get get this

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stuff in order or I'm going to
come back and I'm going to

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defrock you all.
I'm going to.

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We're going to revoke your
franchise.

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Defrock is not a bad word.
You're right.

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You gotta make sure you
pronounce all the syllables, but

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it's not a bad word.
Yeah.

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And so, you know, you look at
Paul's writings and he's he's

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teaching, but he's teaching
through exhortation.

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He's appealing to truth.
And but what he's not doing is

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he's not threatening, He's not
exercising what we would

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consider Mormonism, like
ecclesiastical authority, like,

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hey, I'm the boss, you have to
do what I say.

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OK.
And you see the relationship

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with the churches.
The churches seem to be writing

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in questions.
They, they, it's a position

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based off of respect.
The bishops of these churches

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respect the apostles.
And so therefore they're going

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to them for help.
But they're not being like it

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doesn't to me.
When I read, when I read the New

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Testament and all those
epistles, it doesn't appear to

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me that it's focused on a
hierarchical authority as much

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as it is giving guidance and
direction.

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Well, no.
And and even if it was

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hierarchical in nature, Paul
isn't where the hierarchy should

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stop.
If that was the case, it should

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be Peter, right?
Right, right.

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And, you know, Paul talks about
wanting to come and visit these

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churches, but why does he want
to visit that?

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He, it sounds to me like when I
was a missionary, you want to go

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back to those areas where you
served and, and reconnect with

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those people because you fall in
love with them.

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It's based off of that.
It's not so much of as like,

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hey, I'm the boss and I want to
come and I want to, you know,

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get you guys going better.
Clearly Paul realized there's

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some issues here with some of
these churches, but his

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motivation and all of that, it
seems to be through exhortation,

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through patients, through
long-suffering.

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Does that sound familiar?
Right.

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Yeah.
And to me, a perspective of the

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priesthood that is based off of
not coercion, but through the

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exhortation and patience, long
service, stuff like that, that

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actually lines up, I think, with
Mormon theology and the vision I

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think Joseph Smith had on how
the church was in, you know,

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supposed to be organized and how
priesthood authority is supposed

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to be exercised.
Not as a not as a whip, not as a

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like a coercion, no force.
And so that was interesting

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right away.
And now, so the Orthodox

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perspective, the orthodox
history is that basically the

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apostle set up these churches,
these franchises, as you might

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say, and with these bishops that
were in charge of their the

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bishops were the the ones in
charge.

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And then when the apostles are
all martyred and there's none

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left, the bishops still have
authority.

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They've been ordained by these
apostles to leave these

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00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,960
congregations.
And so based off of that

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authority they received from the
apostles, they continue to do

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so.
And as new churches are formed,

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00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:02,920
you know, new bishops are
ordained.

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00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,400
And as the church starts
spreading and growing, they

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realize that, well, it's a
little bit hard organizationally

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to keep things.
You want a certain amount of

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what the LDS Church would call
concordance.

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And so you see these
metropolitans and patriarchs to

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the church that are basically
heads over areas, you know, like

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district, district, like area
authorities in the LDS Church

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might be kind of seen as.
Right.

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00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,280
Oh, it's kind of lightly
correlated.

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00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,520
Lightly correlated, but still
very, it seems very lightly

227
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,000
correlated.
And without having apostles,

228
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,680
when they come up with
theological issues, they don't

229
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:52,440
have anybody to turn to anymore
at the way I see it, right?

230
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,960
And so the solution they came up
with is we're going to take our

231
00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,200
patriarchs and we're going to
have our patriarchs all get

232
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,400
together.
These bishops that are

233
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,440
recognizes exemplatory over
maybe some of the other bishops

234
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,560
in that area that represent the
other bishops in the in various

235
00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:12,880
areas.
And they would get together and

236
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,240
have councils to try to hammer
out theological.

237
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,480
Points and issues.
And I think that's where we get,

238
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,560
that's basically where we get
like the Nicean Creed and it was

239
00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:26,600
a, we've got theological issues
coming up.

240
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,880
We can't appeal to the apostles
anymore.

241
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,640
And they basically determined
among themselves that if we get

242
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:37,960
together and we try to figure
this stuff out, then what we

243
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,400
come up with stands.
And they kind of all agreed that

244
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:44,200
they'll come together.
They'll the decisions will be

245
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:49,480
made and those decisions will
stand throughout the other

246
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,200
churches.
But there was one church in

247
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,160
particular that was a little bit
different, just a little bit

248
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,640
different, and that was the
church in Rome.

249
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,880
Because by tradition, that's
where Peter Peter was that.

250
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,480
Was the seed of Peter.
That was where Peter was before

251
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,640
he was martyred.
And so the Bishop in Rome was

252
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,000
what they what they say is first
among equals.

253
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,240
OK.
And from what having read this

254
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,760
various orthodox writings on
what they understand that to

255
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,960
mean, their understanding of
that basically seems to be what

256
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,800
we would call presiding.
OK.

257
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,040
It's not that Peter has
executive, it's not that the the

258
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,040
Bishop in Rome has executive
authority over the other bishops

259
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,640
in the council.
He just is the has a special

260
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,120
place of honor and is basically
responsible for the

261
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,560
organization.
So it's a lot like what we'd say

262
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,720
Mormonism would be presiding,
you know, and somebody presiding

263
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:53,440
in a council or in a in a even
just a general sense with, you

264
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,120
know, Robert Rules.
You have somebody who's

265
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:56,760
presiding over a meeting their
job.

266
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,800
They don't get extra votes.
Often times they actually

267
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,920
abstain, abstain from that in
order to appear neutral so that

268
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:09,000
they can unbiasedly help
organize the decisions that need

269
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,320
to be made and the council that
needs to happen.

270
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,440
So their perspective was the
Bishop in Rome had a special

271
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,480
position as a first among
equals.

272
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:26,080
So it looks like the church for
quite a while kind of operated

273
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,960
under this pattern, which is
actually kind of pretty cool.

274
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,960
It's very it it's, it's it's
structured and organized.

275
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,480
But in another way, it's kind of
anarchistic because, you know,

276
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,560
ultimately bishops, even
individual bishops still held

277
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,240
authority over their respective
churches.

278
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:49,520
But the, the bigger the issues
that would be deferred to these

279
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,040
councils that would happen.
And that's where we get things

280
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,920
like, like I said, and I seen
the, the various creeds were

281
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,080
were brought and the theology's
kind of hammered out by these

282
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,360
guys coming together.
So all was good for a while.

283
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,400
But every once in a while there
were issues.

284
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,560
And it looks like to me that a
lot of these issues had to do

285
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:12,440
with the ordaining of bishops.
So the church in Antioch might

286
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,080
ordain a new Bishop and then the
church in Rome says, hey, we

287
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:17,960
don't really like that.
We don't think that guy's

288
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,360
qualified.
We don't think he should have

289
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,280
ordained him.
We got issue with that.

290
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,840
And and then there were also
more minor theological things

291
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,160
that would happen and it would
cause something that they'd call

292
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,320
schism.
And a schism is basically where.

293
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,560
So prior to this, even though
the churches are all

294
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,160
independent, basically they
you'd say the priesthood was

295
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,480
recognized across all the of
across all the churches.

296
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,800
So a priest in one church could
be traveling in another church,

297
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,880
and they could exercise their
priestly authority while

298
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,200
visiting that other church, and
that other church would

299
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,720
recognize it.
Yeah.

300
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,560
OK.
And then and then deference

301
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,520
would be given to the Bishop
that was in in that thing.

302
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,680
Right.
But when schisms occurred,

303
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,520
various churches would have, and
it's complex relations.

304
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,119
So, so the church in Rome might
say we're in schism with the

305
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,520
church in Antioch, but we're not
in schism with the with the

306
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,960
church in Jerusalem.
And the church in Jerusalem says

307
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,160
we're fine with Antioch, but
we're also fine with Rome.

308
00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:25,800
And so you got these weird kind
of relationships going on, but

309
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,200
it looks like over time they
basically would work it out.

310
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,200
Schisms would resolve, and
they'd come back together again

311
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,080
over time.
Let me let me ask a question

312
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,840
here, Let me play because look,
you and I are both guys who who

313
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,840
don't necessarily subscribe to
the one man doctrine, right?

314
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,080
We see it as being being one of
those things that gives

315
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,960
opportunity to abuses.
Now, I've looked at this a

316
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,240
couple of times.
I mean, I looked at this hard

317
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,760
before I settled on on this side
of it because I think that we

318
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:06,480
have to acknowledge that some
bad things can happen without a

319
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,080
one man either.
Oh, absolutely.

320
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,000
Right.
Yeah.

321
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,080
Because because let's just say
that the church in Antioch

322
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:18,240
ordained a Warren Jeffs kind of
guy, Right.

323
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,640
Right.
And that dude is hurting people.

324
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,600
But if those other churches
don't necessarily hold

325
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,080
authority, if there's not
somebody to put that guy in to

326
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,960
check, how does that work,
right?

327
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,800
Do you just write that church
off and be like, sucks to be

328
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,800
them, right?
Yeah, well, it looks like that

329
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,560
kind of was the attitude.
So, OK, the church in Antioch,

330
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,400
they've gone astray.
We're going to stop recognizing

331
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:48,360
them while they work that out.
But the interesting thing is

332
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,760
over time and then we're talking
big time, right?

333
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,560
And then we're not just talking
like five years later

334
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,760
necessarily, but over the course
of hundreds of years, they come

335
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,760
back together again.
That stuff gets resolved.

336
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,880
Or basically, I, I suppose you
eventually you reap what you

337
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,040
sow, right?
So if you've got a war in Jeffs,

338
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:11,240
if Antioch's got a war in Jeffs
type guy, eventually their

339
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,080
congregation's going to realize
something's off.

340
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,680
This isn't right.
There's a, the abuses are going

341
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,080
to start.
The bad fruit is going to start

342
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,640
up here.
And with that bad fruit, you're

343
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,080
going to see a rejection of
whatever caused that bad fruit.

344
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,960
And things eventually can
reharmonize.

345
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,360
And they can.
Oh, yeah, we made it.

346
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:29,680
You're right.
We made a mistake about that

347
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:30,680
guy.
Or hey, you know what?

348
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,080
Turns out that guy wasn't so
bad.

349
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,320
And you know, he came back in
harmony again.

350
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,240
OK.
So with that, I mean, if you

351
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,160
look at the history, typically
this the, the big, the great

352
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,520
schism was between the church in
Rome and then all of the other

353
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:52,400
churches and it's over a
doctrine called Filioque, which

354
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,560
is it seems weird looking at
when I first was researching

355
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,280
this, it didn't make sense to me
because I'm like, is this really

356
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,760
that big of a doctrinal issue to
schism over?

357
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,640
And the the idea of Filioque is
in the Nicene Creed.

358
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,120
They determine that the Holy
Ghost emanates from the Father.

359
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,560
Pretty simple, right?
Well.

360
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,960
The cat, the Romans, the Roman
Church and their their patriarch

361
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:26,680
decided that actually the Holy
Ghost emanates from the Father

362
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:34,200
and from the Son.
Was this before or after like

363
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:35,640
then the sea and creed and the
other?

364
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,360
Council after after then I see
and creed this is this is.

365
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:41,680
Interesting, right?
Because in theory, if they were

366
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,800
really believers in the Trinity,
you say tomato, I say tomato,

367
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,840
right?
They're the same dude, right?

368
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,440
Which makes this schism all the
more interesting.

369
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,400
Exactly.
And that's the that's the weird

370
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,480
thing is if you look at the
orthodox doctrine today, they're

371
00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,760
not really at odds with that
type of a theology.

372
00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:02,560
They don't endorse it
explicitly, but they're also not

373
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,560
necessarily opposed to it.
So I'm like, well, why did they

374
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,160
schism over it?
Here's the fascinating thing.

375
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:13,200
The real reason for the schism
was because it was the Patriarch

376
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,440
in Rome saying that he had
authority to amend the Nicean

377
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,320
Creed.
Oh, OK, that's that's.

378
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,680
What it really because they
didn't actually have a new

379
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:27,640
council and it was proposed by
the Bishop in Rome that the Holy

380
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,680
Ghost emanates from the Father
and the Son.

381
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,920
They they changed the Nicean
Creed and the other churches.

382
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,320
It wasn't so much about the
doctrine that really I think

383
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:38,760
upset them.
I think what they were concerned

384
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:45,600
about is like, well, why do you
get to amend this creed that was

385
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,800
created by our by a Council of
Churches when you're just one

386
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,080
church?
Well, see, and this is the

387
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,760
danger of a one man, right?
Because you can obviously see

388
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,400
that with, in this instance, the
Roman church was like, no, our

389
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:06,040
guy's the guy, right?
Our guy is the guy that gets to

390
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,600
dictate if any of these things
get changed.

391
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,600
Right.
And the other issue thing is at

392
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,680
the time this was just a schism.
It wasn't the Great Schism.

393
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,480
It was just a schism, just like
World War One wasn't World War

394
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,200
One at the time.
It was the Great War.

395
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,880
Nobody was called it World War
One, nobody was anticipating

396
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,480
World War 2 and schisms were
happening in the church.

397
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,800
So at the time, it was just a
schism and it was all the other

398
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,160
churches kind of versus this,
this Western church in Rome.

399
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,680
Gotcha.
And presumably it was a schism

400
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,600
that would eventually be
reconciled.

401
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,200
OK.
But it didn't.

402
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,320
And what it looks like, and this
is this I'm, I'm sharing this

403
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,160
from the perspective of the
Orthodox Church.

404
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,440
Sure, I can't, I can't assert
the validity of any of this

405
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:01,200
history.
But what it looks like is the

406
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:06,080
Roman Church started saying that
their patriarch, their Pope, so

407
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,080
to speak.
Cause if the prior to this

408
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,920
there's, there's various popes,
right?

409
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,560
The the Pope is just patriarch.
Yeah, that's all Pope means.

410
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,720
It's just patriarch, right?
They started saying, well, he's

411
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,880
not first among equals, He's
he's, he's superior.

412
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,720
And so other changes start
happening instead of and instead

413
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,600
of What normally happens with
schism is that the the bad fruit

414
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,640
eventually reconciles.
The Roman Church starts doubling

415
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,480
down.
OK.

416
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,040
And some and it wasn't, it
started with maybe the Filioque

417
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:46,240
way, but over time there were
other changes and differences

418
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,640
that started appearing and and
they became more and more

419
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,640
separated.
And I was listening to a

420
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,640
Orthodox, I don't know what he
was, Bishop, pastor, not pastor,

421
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,320
priest or something talking
about the subject.

422
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,520
And he said that the really the
the separation between the

423
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,120
Catholic and the Orthodox didn't
really happen with the Filioque.

424
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,560
Way.
That was just a schism when it

425
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,280
really finally was a, a true
separation happened with the

426
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:23,280
sacking of Constantinople.
And so this is basically when

427
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,800
the Roman Church send and and
the government in Rome sends

428
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,840
military and that military goes
and they sack Constantinople,

429
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,280
which was the seat of the of the
way.

430
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,920
I think it was.
I think what appeared to be the

431
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,280
basically at the time was like
the seat of the of the Eastern

432
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,360
Church.
Right.

433
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,480
And so it wasn't, it was no
longer just a theological

434
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,520
difference.
They literally took up arms.

435
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,320
They were according to accounts,
right, these soldiers that were

436
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:56,280
sent under this under this holy
war type argument where, you

437
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,240
know, they were sacking and
pillaging and raping and.

438
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,160
They went for it.
They went for it, bad stuff.

439
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,000
And that's really when it became
more of a permanent schism.

440
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,960
It was no longer a schism.
Now it's the great schism and

441
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,120
it's a completely inseparable,
irreconcilable difference.

442
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,720
And, and then just over time,
from what I can tell, the

443
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,160
Orthodox Church has tried to
hold to their traditions and you

444
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,440
start seeing changes and, and,
and innovations happening in the

445
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,720
Catholic Church.
What kind of innovations?

446
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,320
Well, yeah, and I don't have the
timing of all this, but consider

447
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:38,200
some of these interesting
things.

448
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,160
One of them is forbidding
marriage.

449
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,760
Interesting.
So this was fascinating to find

450
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:50,840
out among the Orthodox if, if
you, if a priest is not married

451
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,560
when he's ordained, he's not
allowed to marry because they

452
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,080
see that as I, as you can
understand, potentially

453
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,240
problematic, like if you got a
Bishop, an award who's single

454
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,720
and he's the steward over all
these single women.

455
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,120
I mean, there's.
You're asking for trouble, Yeah.

456
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:11,840
You're asking for trouble.
There's opportunities for and

457
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,720
who else would he would a priest
potentially marry, right?

458
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,400
However, in the Orthodox Church
it's perfect and it it's common

459
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,800
for priests to be married before
they're ordained.

460
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,480
Well, that's because I think of
an injunction, Paul said.

461
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:26,920
Right.
If you're going to be a Bishop,

462
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:32,040
you have to be the husband of at
least one wife, and you have to

463
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,880
have your family life in order.
Right, Yeah.

464
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,440
So the Orthodox kind of helped
that the Catholic Church started

465
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,360
saying actually we think there's
some kind of a holiness, a

466
00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:43,800
greater holiness in not being
married and we want our priests

467
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,440
to be more holy.
So priests are not allowed to be

468
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,040
married, generally speaking.
There might be a few exceptions

469
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,440
here and there even today.
But standard doctrine in in the

470
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,040
Catholic Church, standard Canon
or policy is that priests are

471
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,160
not allowed to be married.
And so I thought, well, that's

472
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,800
an interesting difference.
Well, yeah, that that carries

473
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,400
some, right.
I mean, within the LDS Church,

474
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,680
it's you can't get married.
It's that you can only be

475
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,560
married once, right?
But you see a parallel.

476
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,400
But there's a parallel, right?
The split occurs essentially

477
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,840
over marriage, right?
And the regulation of that

478
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,200
ordinance right now?
This is kind of anecdotal,

479
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,760
right?
I'm not saying like it's a

480
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:33,360
perfect parallel, but what's
fascinating to me is you can see

481
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,000
these similarities that are
fascinating.

482
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,600
So here's, here's another
fascinating 1 Papal

483
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,640
infallibility.
The church in Rome says, starts

484
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,880
saying, actually, you know what?
Our Pope, our patriarch is

485
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,800
infallible, incapable of being
wrong in, in these in certain

486
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,360
contexts, of course, right,
right, right.

487
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,520
Otherwise it'd be too easy to
debunk.

488
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:01,920
You know, it's a fascinating
thing.

489
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,880
I have.
I still have a good buddy who's

490
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,400
Catholic.
He lives back in Malden, MA,

491
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,080
Right, Right.
And he said, you Mormons are

492
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,320
fascinating.
And I said, well, why is that?

493
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:20,360
And he says, well, you guys say
that your prophets aren't

494
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:22,560
infallible, but you treat him
like he is.

495
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,480
He's invaluable speaking.
And, and in the Catholic Church,

496
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:33,160
we say the Pope is infallible,
but we don't treat him like he

497
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,000
is right.
It's an interesting thing,

498
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,880
right?
Because one thing you'll see

499
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,520
throughout Mormonism, especially
with the one manners, is that

500
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,360
they pretty much treat him like
he's he's infallible.

501
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,120
You know what they'll give
Mormonism 1000 years or so and

502
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,200
I'll bet the culture will shift
too.

503
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,400
Even it's already, you already
see it starting to shift where

504
00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,800
there's a lot of technically
completely committed true blue

505
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,760
Mormons.
They're starting to be like,

506
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,280
well, I, I, for example, how
many Mormons took the backs?

507
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:06,760
Right.
Right.

508
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,520
And the excuses, well, he's only
a prophet when he's speaking as

509
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,600
a prophet.
He's only infallible when he's

510
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:22,360
speaking as a as a prophet.
And so it kind of creates an

511
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,800
excuse, right?
And the Catholics have the same

512
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,000
thing.
They're they're the Pope is only

513
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,520
infallible when he's acting in
the, in the, in the role of the

514
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,000
Pope.
So a modern Catholic can excuse

515
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:41,960
the Pope's behavior or teachings
or things based off of Well, at

516
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,480
the at that moment, he wasn't
acting as.

517
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,800
But see, that leaves so much
room, right?

518
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,640
Too much room in my opinion,
right, both on the Catholic side

519
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,120
and the Mormon side.
Because look, when Russell M

520
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,120
Nelson came out and he sat in
that chair and he said, you

521
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,000
know, our only way out of this
is for everyone to take the

522
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,280
vaccine.
And then he publishes that to

523
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,920
all of his followers.
What else are you supposed to

524
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,240
take that ask, right?
Is that, is that a, is that a

525
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,880
revelation?
Is that just counsel from a guy?

526
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,520
Is that prophetic counsel?
And So what we see is we we see

527
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,720
these varying degrees of this.
Right.

528
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,640
And to me the point.
The point is, why even make the

529
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,200
assumption right?
Why even make the assumption of

530
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,640
infallibility?
Right.

531
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,440
Because if if the assumption's
only true in certain criteria,

532
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,200
then it might as you might as
well throw it out entirely,

533
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,160
because you're going to have to
decide ultimately what you

534
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,240
should be doing regardless, even
with the standards you should be

535
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,760
deciding for yourself.
Yeah.

536
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,000
You should be getting your own
witness, your own testimony of

537
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,600
whether that is true or false.
I can see that.

538
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,600
The assumption of infallibility.
Ultimately, to me it seems like

539
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,000
a kind of cheap.
Trick it is.

540
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,040
It is.
Right.

541
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,800
And it creates a.
It creates a certain amount of

542
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,440
laziness.
Well, sure it does, right?

543
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,360
And because, let's face it, I
don't care what anyone says,

544
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,760
humans are wired to be somewhat
lazy, right?

545
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:16,120
We want, you know, if we were to
look at this from a purely

546
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,720
primordial standpoint, our
bodies are kind of engineered to

547
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,400
take in as many calories as we
can with the least amount of

548
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,840
expenditure of calories to
prevent starvation, right?

549
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,200
And I think we do the same thing
in this sort of instance, right?

550
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,640
We want the most quote caloric
intake of prophetic counsel we

551
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,680
can get without doing much work
ourselves.

552
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,160
With the least amount.
Of right.

553
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,200
And, and I think it's a very
similar kind of thing.

554
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,080
And I think that makes humans
very susceptible with that sort

555
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,240
of thing.
Right, absolutely.

556
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,440
And so the fascinating thing was
the so in the Orthodox Church,

557
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,960
so they don't believe in
infallibility, so their

558
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,000
patriarchs are not considered
infallible.

559
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:03,120
They that assumption isn't even
there, which I'm like, wow,

560
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,520
that's kind of cool actually.
And the interesting thing is too

561
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,400
ultimately we, we've got it
right now, even though the

562
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,920
Orthodox Church might not be as
big as the Catholic Church, it

563
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,480
has withstood the test of time.
They are still here, which means

564
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,240
they must be doing something
right.

565
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,200
You know, they might not have it
all figured out, they might not

566
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,560
have all of the truths of the
restored Gospel, but but even

567
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,760
organizationally, they must be
doing something right because

568
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,560
they they're still here and they
are basically still united.

569
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,360
They still recognize the various
churches that comprise the

570
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,840
Orthodox Church, are still
united and recognize each other.

571
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,440
So, and that was my next
question.

572
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,920
So they do still recognize each
other's authority.

573
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,240
Yeah.
So the Ukrainian church is

574
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,800
totally cool with the Greek
church.

575
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,200
OK, Yeah.
As far as I know, I, there might

576
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,360
be some schism that I'm not at
work 'cause I'm not getting, I'm

577
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,240
not from this world.
But even if there's a temporary

578
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,800
schism right now, it's all being
considered temporary.

579
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,160
But, you know, Speaking of the
schism, see, that's, that's

580
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,040
another interesting parallel
because early fundamentalism

581
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:12,200
essentially is a schism and
early fundamentalism also

582
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:13,760
believed it was just a temporary
schism.

583
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,440
You know, you look at the
writings of, of, of the Woolies,

584
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,240
They thought that they, well, it
may not the right, but you know,

585
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,720
Leslie Broadbent wrote a lot of
what Woolies said and, and

586
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,080
taught.
And if you look at those

587
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,840
teachings, the idea was that
this is temporary.

588
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,760
We're going to, we're going to
end up back in with the

589
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:32,600
mainstream church.
Give.

590
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,520
Give it a little while.
Just, you know, give it a few

591
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,280
years.
Well in the mainstream church

592
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,320
even said that right told told
that meeting muster was in in

593
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,800
the celestial room.
Just keep your records.

594
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,240
This is going to blow over in a
few years.

595
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,800
You're be brought right back in
and everything's going to be

596
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,200
cool.
Right.

597
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,040
And so the fascinating thing is
the schism really became

598
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,600
permanent with the Catholics and
the Orthodox, from what I can

599
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:03,000
tell, again with the sacking of
Constantinople, right?

600
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,120
And I'm looking at this looking
for parallels and I'm thinking,

601
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,320
Oh, well, you know, the
fundamentalists kind of split

602
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,159
and at first they're split and
theologically, doctrinally, you

603
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:18,920
know, you know, these got we're,
we're all at, on at ends with

604
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,320
each other.
We're all, you know, there's

605
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,639
this conflict, but you know,
with the short Creek rates.

606
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,600
Right.
And the Church's apparent

607
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,880
support of the persecution of
the fundamentalists.

608
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,840
Right.
All of a sudden it's no longer a

609
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,920
temporary.
All of a sudden it's like.

610
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:40,639
You know it's not.
Yeah, these are irreconcilable.

611
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:42,560
It something becomes
irreconcilable.

612
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:43,560
Right.
Right.

613
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,159
And that was another really
fascinating parallel.

614
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,320
So, you know, here's another
interesting one.

615
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,480
Changing the ordinances.
This was another thing that

616
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,680
happened.
So traditionally, from what I

617
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,600
understand, in the Orthodox
Church, baptism, for example, is

618
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,280
done through immersion.
And that is still the standard,

619
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,640
the standard in the Orthodox
Church today.

620
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,280
And they have exceptions, but
the exceptions are basically

621
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:20,400
just based off of, well, like,
so like if a baby's born and the

622
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,720
baby's sick and the baby's going
to die, you can't really take a

623
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:27,440
sick baby and baptize them by
immersion, right?

624
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,400
There's certain situations where
they decided it'd be better to

625
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,320
baptize them with sprinkling of
water than a full immersion that

626
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,160
that's better than nothing.
But the standard in New York

627
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,360
black church is still baptism by
immersion.

628
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,240
Whereas the Catholic Church
started saying, you know, they

629
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:49,440
also probably had those initial
exceptions, but over time, it

630
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,800
became, hey, you know,
sprinkling is a heck of a lot

631
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,000
easier.
You know, it's funny because in

632
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,680
the change in in what they're
doing now into the Salt Lake

633
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:05,800
Temple, it was done under the
the banner of efficiency,

634
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,240
convenience.
We want to get as many people

635
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,600
through there as we can.
So we're going to chunk up those

636
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,920
rooms or they're going to be
several different instruction

637
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,400
rooms now rather than a select,
you know, rather than a creation

638
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,320
room and a garden room and all
this.

639
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,360
So it can just be more
efficient.

640
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:24,800
Right.
Yeah.

641
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,880
So changing ordinances for
efficiency, that was another of

642
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,520
these differences that you start
seeing happen between the

643
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,880
Orthodox and the Catholics now.
So obviously.

644
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,920
So I, I mean, I got a list of a
few things.

645
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,080
So there's a forbidding marriage
and papal infallibility.

646
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,960
This overstepping of authority
of the, the Pope being better

647
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,640
than the other Pope, one man is
an essential essentially

648
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,280
rewriting what they, well, you
search essentially kind of

649
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,920
scripture, like the Orthodox
consider like the creeds as, as

650
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,840
scripture because a bunch of
bishops came together and

651
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,560
decided they, you know, an
agreement on, on things.

652
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,480
But you can kind of see that as
basically kind of changing

653
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,720
scripture and, and changing the,
the underlying theology.

654
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,400
There's changing in ordinances.
There's this priest of

655
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,920
ordination.
They changed the way that that

656
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,120
they changed the ordination.
Well, they didn't change the

657
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,840
ordination, but there's issues
of ordination because they've

658
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:34,200
got the, well, maybe it's not
exactly as black and white as

659
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,120
that, but a lot of times even
previous to the schisms, like I

660
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,760
said, happened because of
ordinations.

661
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,920
Right.
And concerns over whether that's

662
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,240
authorized or not, right?
And you certainly see a parallel

663
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,480
in Mormonism and fundamentalism
that way, whereas the LDS church

664
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,080
would say you don't really have
priesthood yet that ordinations.

665
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,400
Doesn't it's outside of the
church, so we don't recognize it

666
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,000
and God doesn't recognize.
Right.

667
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,680
If you are a Daniel son of
Melchizedek, crease it.

668
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,640
The LDS church is going to say
no, no, that don't count.

669
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:09,680
Right.
So splitting over ordinations

670
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:18,240
and, and then culminating in in
basically war and, and again,

671
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,440
like I said, you know, the Shore
Creek raids even today, like

672
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,320
before I was, before I became a
fundamentalist, I was, I went

673
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,280
with a friend of mine and we
were protesting against the

674
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,800
government's abuse of the FLDS
in Texas.

675
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:36,000
And it wasn't that we were
friends of the FLDS in their

676
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,320
theology and what they were
doing, but we weren't friends of

677
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,240
the government without any
justifiable cause stepping in

678
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:48,440
there and taking those children
away from the parents and

679
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,920
sending them away.
And we're doing genetic testing

680
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,920
on them to find out.
I mean, you know, if if one of

681
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,160
those women said that, yeah, I
was being abused, I don't want

682
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,560
to go back to my thanks, fine.
You know, but that's not what

683
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,120
the government did, right?
They went in there and they went

684
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,240
in there to break up families
that didn't want to be broken

685
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:04,040
up.
Right.

686
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,800
And so me and my friend were
protesting that even before it's

687
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,920
just as Mormons and not as a
religious issue but as a

688
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,400
political issue.
And we went to a jazz game where

689
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:22,080
Houston was playing, and we were
there to protest the government

690
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,800
abuse and kid you not, we were
literally being spit upon.

691
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:28,120
Oh, I don't doubt it.
We.

692
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,800
Were literally being spit upon
by by the general, by our own

693
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,280
fellow Mormons as they were
going to the game because they

694
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,760
perceived me and my friend as
fundamentalists.

695
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:45,200
They assumed we were.
And so that kind of antagonism,

696
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:51,560
this justification of abusing
and persecuting is really kind

697
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,600
of undeniable as a, as a
cultural promoted thing in the

698
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,240
LDS church.
And it up until recently it was

699
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,800
largely even enforced through
temple recommend interviews.

700
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,840
Right.
Right where you're not worthy of

701
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,800
a temple recommend if you
associate with anybody that's

702
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,040
that's you know.
A fundamentalist.

703
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,920
Really.
Yeah, that wasn't the word they

704
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,800
used, but that was why they
added that question.

705
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,160
Well, yeah, that's exactly why
they added that question.

706
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,280
That question doesn't come into
being, I think, until right

707
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,680
around Huber J Grant and Cause
the Fundamentalist threat became

708
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,840
very real all of a sudden.
Right.

709
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,160
And a policy like that suddenly
creates a culture of

710
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,520
persecution.
Yeah, yeah, because let's face

711
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,840
it, there's not anyone outside
of Mormonism that's making

712
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,240
claims to what we would consider
keys of the priesthood, right?

713
00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:48,720
They're not worried about you
hanging out with a Baptist.

714
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,160
They were worried about you
hanging out with other Mormons.

715
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,880
Right.
Which really doesn't make sense

716
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,280
because they'd have more in
common with a fundamentalist

717
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,960
than a Baptist.
Unless you're trying to

718
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,600
consolidate power.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

719
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,080
And that kind of thing creates
schism.

720
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,400
It's not, it's not a good thing.
It creates permanent schism.

721
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,160
It breaks, it breaks the church
apart again.

722
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,200
The whole point of this research
was like, why is this happening

723
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,800
and and how do you prevent it?
So I mean, so I guess that's

724
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,520
that's the history.
That's my understanding of the

725
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,040
history.
It's mostly that's probably an

726
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,320
Orthodox perspective.
I mean, I'm sure the Catholics

727
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,080
have their own version of how
and why that schism happened and

728
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:33,760
maybe theirs is true.
I don't.

729
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,240
I can't say one way or the
other, but I tend to lean

730
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:41,240
towards what the Orthodox Church
saying making a lot of sense

731
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,520
because we literally can see the
exact same thing happened in

732
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,920
Mormonism.
Right.

733
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,800
And outside of Orthodox,
Catholic and Mormonism, there's

734
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,600
really no other churches on the
planet that claim priest

735
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,760
authority.
No, no, I mean, yeah, in in the

736
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,000
Christian tradition, it's the
three of us, right?

737
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,920
Interesting.
So as you looked at all this

738
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,720
history, what do you think the
overarching message message

739
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,840
about it is?
Well, I've got, I've got some

740
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,120
ideas.
OK, But maybe before I get into

741
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,720
that, I think it might be it
might be fun to share some of

742
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:22,840
the interesting things I found
about Orthodox theology.

743
00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:26,840
That.
I mean, because I, I, I did find

744
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,480
beauty there.
And I'm not, I'm not suggesting,

745
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,680
you know, Mormons or
fundamentalists or go join the

746
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,760
Orthodox Church, but I think
there are things that can be

747
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,080
learned there 'cause one of the
things a lot of Mormons and

748
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:45,480
fundamentalists turn to Judaism
and really, really research that

749
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,640
stuff looking for truths to pull
out.

750
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,080
And I, you know, I think that's
a fantastic thing is as long as

751
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,400
you don't take it too far,
right, I think that's a

752
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,640
fantastic thing to do.
And I, you know, there's, I've

753
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,360
learned a lot of stuff from
friends that are heavily into

754
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,640
researching, you know,
Hebrewisms and, and, and pulling

755
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,360
the truths out of that and
finding those correlations with,

756
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:11,160
with Mormon theology.
Well, what's surprising to me is

757
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,040
we don't see the same thing
happening with Catholicism and

758
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,640
Orthodoxism.
We don't see a lot of people

759
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,160
that are in Mormonism that are
really interested in that

760
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,240
subject that that have done
because a lot of the stuff that

761
00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:26,040
I researched, it blew me away.
I had no idea.

762
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:32,920
But it's an amazing testament to
me of the truth of Joseph Smith.

763
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,280
Because here's something else to
realize.

764
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,040
When Joseph's, when the
restoration happened, there was,

765
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,520
there was Catholicism in the
United States, right?

766
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,080
And you had a lot of Catholicism
down in Mexico.

767
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,400
It's pretty much state religion.
So it wasn't a foreign thing.

768
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,640
So for Joseph Smith to be able
to pull ideas from Catholicism

769
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,800
wouldn't be that surprising.
But what it would be surprising

770
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,520
is if Joseph Smith's pulling
ideas from the Orthodox Church

771
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,640
because that was not really in
America at that time, even at

772
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,800
the, I mean, at that time even
it was if, if, if Catholicism is

773
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,400
a state religion of, of Mexico,
you know, Protestantism is the,

774
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,440
is the state religion of, of, of
the United States.

775
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,200
And so you don't, you know, at
the time, I mean, even, I mean,

776
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:29,240
I remember like JFK was the
like, I believe he's the first

777
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:32,160
Catholic president.
And when he was running, there's

778
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,120
a lot of fear and skepticism.
Yeah, they were worried about

779
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,360
his allegiance being to Rome,
right?

780
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,440
Not to the United States
Constitution.

781
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,160
And that wasn't that long ago.
No, no, it's like what, 60 years

782
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,840
ago now or something, I mean.
Right.

783
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:50,560
So America's clearly heavily a
Protestant nation with very,

784
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,160
very little Catholic influence.
Right.

785
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,480
Even.
But even with that orthodox

786
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,360
influence, even into modern
times, very, very small.

787
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,920
Right.
And so finding these parallels

788
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,840
between Mormon theology and
Orthodox theology has really

789
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,080
been a very fascinating witness
of the truth of the Restoration.

790
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,840
Because it, I mean, you know,
people can argue, well, Joseph

791
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:19,920
Smith pulled that out of the,
out of these, the cabalic

792
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,080
teachings 'cause he had a, a
rabbi that was helped teaching

793
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,400
him, or he pulls this out of
that, or, you know, people make

794
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,800
these claims that he's deriving
the, the, the theology that was

795
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,520
revealed to him from these other
sources.

796
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,200
It's you even pulling some of
this cabalic stuff, though, is

797
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,480
really a stretch in my opinion.
I, I find that a stretch.

798
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,520
But to try to make that claim to
Orthodox, that's that's beyond

799
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,600
the pale in my opinion.
Yeah, 'cause I don't think

800
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,920
there's an Eastern Orthodox
presence in the United States

801
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,640
during his time.
I mean, there may be some people

802
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,240
hanging around, but it's not.
I'm not seeing a whole lot of

803
00:45:56,240 --> 00:45:58,360
Orthodox churches being set up
right.

804
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,000
Right.
So, and so one of the things

805
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,120
too, that I found with, with
when I was looking into the

806
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,800
Orthodox Church is I found a
certain beauty in their, in

807
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:13,320
their methodology of worship,
which is very, it's hard to put

808
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:18,880
a word to it, but it, there's a
certain kind of a piety and

809
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:24,080
sincerity to the what I would
maybe say the ordinances,

810
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,160
because in Orthodox worship,
that's the primary thing and

811
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,320
Protestantism, it's all about
the sermon, right?

812
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,640
The sermons.
That's what you're going to

813
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,480
church for, right?
You're going to church because

814
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,760
you want, you want to hear your
preacher give this amazing

815
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,320
sermon that's going to get you
fired up and get you inspired.

816
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:47,720
And that's what it's all about
in the Orthodox Church.

817
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,160
Well, I guess so.
First of all, it should be

818
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,400
understood.
So the oral they build their

819
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:57,720
churches facing East.
Interesting.

820
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:03,080
Yeah, very interesting.
And their their form of worship.

821
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,040
It's not that they don't have
sermons because their priest

822
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,640
will.
There is an aspect of sure in

823
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,880
their in their worship.
But first and foremost is their

824
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,960
literate is the liturgy liturgy.
And I mean, that's I guess in

825
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,480
common with the Catholics too.
But the liturgy, that's why

826
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,600
you're going, you're going there
for the sacrament, for the

827
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,240
liturgy.
And the liturgy is a lot like an

828
00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:27,240
endowment.
Really.

829
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:33,200
It's a lot like an endowment.
They see the, I was hoping to

830
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,400
actually attend one of their,
one of their services to get a,

831
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,920
you know, some personal
experience and that that hasn't

832
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:43,520
worked out yet.
But their liturgy is more of a

833
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,520
it's a it's a presentation.
OK.

834
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:53,760
Of theological truths that the
there's not an audience, there's

835
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:55,640
they participate.
OK.

836
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,680
At this point, you sing this
song all together.

837
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,600
At this point, you all say these
words and you're sharing this

838
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,320
specific prayer.
OK.

839
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:11,280
And in that process it's it's,
it's the same every time.

840
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:13,640
Right.
Right.

841
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,720
A lot like, and so I, I, I see a
lot of similarities with that

842
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:22,200
with, with our temple worship in
Mormonism where, you know, we

843
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,720
have Sunday and we go to church
there and, and that's where we,

844
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,760
we take the sacrament and we,
but mostly Sunday we take the

845
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,640
sacrament.
But most of that time is we've

846
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,600
got sermons, we've got Sunday
school, we've got programs and

847
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,880
young men and priesthood
meetings and all of that stuff

848
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,880
going on.
But when we want, but when we go

849
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,120
to worship in a prescribed
manner, in a more of a

850
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:53,200
literature, liturgical,
liturgical, liturgical fashion,

851
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:54,760
we go to the temple.
Right.

852
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,440
And if you look at how they
build their, their, their, their

853
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,280
churches, you look at how they
adorn their churches, you look

854
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:08,160
at how they worship inside their
churches, It's, it looks a lot

855
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,720
more like it like temple worship
to me than it does what we would

856
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:14,560
consider like standard Sunday
services in Mormonism.

857
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:23,520
Really.
And they hold to those, what do

858
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,200
you call it?
They they hold to that process

859
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:33,320
in a very pious and reverent
manner, right?

860
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,400
It's not you're just there and
you're just hanging out, but

861
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,400
it's you're involved in this.
You're supposed to be having an

862
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:39,160
experience.
You're.

863
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,080
Having it, yeah, You're having
an experience, a prescribed

864
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:43,680
experience.
Interesting.

865
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,440
And you know, I, I don't think
it's like 100% correct,

866
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,320
obviously, but sure.
But there's a certain amount of,

867
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,400
of beauty in worshipping that
way.

868
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,760
And you see that in this in this
church, and you certainly don't

869
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,800
see this at all anywhere in
Protestantism.

870
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,280
No.
And I was going to say this.

871
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:07,600
This could be the reason that
this upset so many Jacksonian

872
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:13,600
Americans, right?
Because Mormonism looks

873
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,320
different, right?
Like Mormonism is unique in the

874
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,280
sense of you're going to get a
flavor of American Protestantism

875
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,440
by showing up to church on
Sunday.

876
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,040
And like you were saying, you go
to Sunday school, then you you

877
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:31,600
go to what could be considered
the General Assembly where a

878
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:35,840
certain someone is going to give
a sermon, right.

879
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,760
But then there's something
different that would resemble

880
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,240
more of what you were just
describing in the Eastern

881
00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:46,760
Orthodox phase where you have
ordinances and it's not enough

882
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,600
just to show up, right?
Like I think for so long, that

883
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,400
was the thing, right?
You show up, you throw a couple

884
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,440
bucks in the collection plate,
you make sure you and the

885
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,560
preacher are on good standing,
you're good to go right Now, all

886
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,000
of a sudden Joseph Smith comes
along and goes, no, no, no,

887
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,560
there's more, right?
And now, and, and I think that's

888
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,600
the part that really freaked
people out, right?

889
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,640
Wasn't so much the Sunday to
Sunday thing, but it what was?

890
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,920
It's what they were doing the
rest of the week, right?

891
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:20,760
Sacred ordinances participate.
Participatory ordinances that

892
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,040
all of a sudden starts to look
very foreign to Jacksonian

893
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,360
America, and I've often wondered
if that wasn't part of the rub.

894
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,200
I could definitely see that, and
it's fascinating.

895
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,360
You look at Joseph's emphasis,
right?

896
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:34,840
It was.
We need to build a temple.

897
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:37,840
Community.
Temple How many churches did

898
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,280
Joseph Smith build?
0 right.

899
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,880
So if you want to hear Joseph
Smith preach, he'd go to the

900
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,600
Grove right on Sunday and you
and you hear him preach and you

901
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,280
hear the sermon.
But when you're when, when

902
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,600
you're serious about worship.
You go to the temple.

903
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:53,880
There's a dedicated space for
that.

904
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:55,920
And you don't.
You don't get sermons in the

905
00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:00,360
temple.
That's not a place to explore

906
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,680
interesting ideas or to learn
the gospel.

907
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:07,760
No, that's a place to
participate in prescribed sacred

908
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,240
ritual.
Right.

909
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,080
That is designed to connect you
with God.

910
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,560
So let me ask you this, do you
see anything?

911
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,480
And, and I, I understand you
haven't had a chance to do a

912
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:23,480
super deep dive, but the other
thing Joseph was big on was

913
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:25,960
community, right?
We're going to build a

914
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,280
community.
Does does the Eastern Orthodox

915
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,320
Church seem to have anything
that's similar to that?

916
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,480
A quest for Zion or a quest for
a holy?

917
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,840
Community, you know, nothing in
particular actually stands out.

918
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,800
There might be something that
I'm missing it nothing stands

919
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,280
out.
But again, I'm looking at the

920
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,200
Orthodox Church as what can,
what can be gained from it.

921
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,200
But I don't think they they had
it all right.

922
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,320
So I didn't expect necessarily
to find everything.

923
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,600
For example, I think there's
great value in the sermon as

924
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,080
well, right?
And that's the thing, right?

925
00:52:57,240 --> 00:53:00,400
You have Protestantism and you
have Catholicism and

926
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,040
Orthodoxism, and there's a
schism between them.

927
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,400
The way they worship is entirely
different, right?

928
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,400
And Joseph Smith doesn't reject
everything from Protestantism.

929
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:11,880
Right.
Neither does he adopt everything

930
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,000
from Catholicism.
He brings them together in my

931
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:14,800
opinion.
Right.

932
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,960
And so you, you kind of get a
what I would call temperance.

933
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:20,800
Right.
You've got both.

934
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,440
It's not one or the other or
this one's good, this one's not

935
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,480
as good.
It's not overly weighted, not.

936
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,280
Overly weighted it's bringing it
together because where would we

937
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,760
be in in Mormonism today even if
we didn't have those amazing

938
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,880
sermons that the few that we
have record record of that

939
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:39,800
Joseph.
Smith gave and well, so yeah.

940
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,120
Some of those were written down
right.

941
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:43,760
Right.
But some of them probably

942
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:44,800
weren't.
Right.

943
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:46,680
I can't imagine how cool it
would have been.

944
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,720
Oh yeah, day to just, you know.
Oh, Justin is giving a sermon

945
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:52,400
today.
Let's go check it out, right?

946
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,960
Hear, hear the man just riff on
on spirituality and spiritual

947
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:57,760
principles.
Yeah.

948
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,280
And honestly, personally, I see
this as a balance between this,

949
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,240
these opposite, these polar
things that aren't that they

950
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:07,680
don't necessarily have to be
opposites like liberalism and

951
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,160
conservatism.
You know, the Protestantism is a

952
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:17,120
very liberal religious movement,
while Catholic and Orthodox is

953
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,720
very conservative.
And well, which one's right?

954
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,760
Well, Justice Smith's
revelations were that will the

955
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,400
both bring them together?
They're both necessary.

956
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,320
They're both necessary.
So let's not throw the baby out

957
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:33,360
with the bathwater, right?
So, you know, and this might

958
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,280
apply to Catholicism.
Some of this stuff might apply

959
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,440
to Catholicism as well.
So, you know, I apologize to

960
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:39,960
anybody out there that might,
might get offended.

961
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,680
I'm not just trying to, you
know, Catholicism is pretty cool

962
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:43,920
too.
They got some neat stuff

963
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,440
actually as well.
So one of the things that really

964
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,680
struck me, that really helped me
understand a certain aspect of

965
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,440
Mormonism was actually
confession.

966
00:54:55,680 --> 00:55:03,840
So in the growing up as a Mormon
confession was just this, this

967
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:08,040
thing that you needed to do to
be forgiven.

968
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,120
You know, the your very first
experience with with a Bishop

969
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:14,920
interview is probably going to
be so you can go do work for the

970
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:16,000
dead of the temple.
Is it?

971
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,560
Is it a bad or young woman?
Right.

972
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,000
Baptism, I think, too, yeah.
Yeah, but you're, you're a young

973
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:22,880
man or young woman, then you're,
you know, you're still pretty

974
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:27,520
young, but you know, you're like
12 or older and, and, and in

975
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:31,520
order to go to the temple and do
baptisms for the dead, you need

976
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,400
to have one of your one of your
early, well, I guess baptism

977
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:35,160
too, right?
Yeah, you're right.

978
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:36,800
Baptism is probably the very
first.

979
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:40,480
But usually the baptism isn't so
much focused on confession.

980
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:45,120
No, no, because realistically at
that point you're still good,

981
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:46,360
right?
You're going to.

982
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,240
It's after that the confession.
But it's when you're a teenager

983
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,800
and you need to recommend to do
work in the temple for the dead

984
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:58,800
that you need to recommend.
And for me, this idea of, you

985
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,040
know, that's where you're going
to get asked questions and

986
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,200
you're going to go through these
temple recommended interview

987
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,400
type stuff, right?
And you tie that to this idea of

988
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,800
of confession.
You read the miracle of

989
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:11,840
forgiveness.
Something.

990
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,160
Like that, right?
And you get this idea that

991
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:22,720
forgiveness for your sins is
between you and God and your

992
00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:26,920
Bishop, and that you can't
really be forgiven if you don't

993
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:28,720
talk to your Bishop about this
kind of stuff.

994
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,640
Right.
And so one of the things that

995
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:36,360
it's, it's it's something that's
always irked me to a certain

996
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,800
degree, to a little bit, even
even in the church, because that

997
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,840
doesn't work theologically.
Like I can't find any.

998
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,320
I have yet to find a revelation
in Doctrine Covenants that

999
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,360
explains the necessity of
confessing to your Bishop in

1000
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,320
order to be forgiven.
Right.

1001
00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:00,440
I can't find it in Scripture.
So where, where is the, you

1002
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,000
know, I've always wanted like,
where is this coming from?

1003
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,280
And, and as I became a
fundamentalist, this is

1004
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,400
something I've, I, I threw out
completely, entirely as this is

1005
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,840
garbage.
This just, this doesn't make

1006
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:12,600
sense.
Why do you have to have a man in

1007
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,360
between you and God to be
forgiven?

1008
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:21,240
It, it's, it didn't make sense,
but I was, as I was researching

1009
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:25,640
Orthodox, I got the Orthodox
perspective on confession, which

1010
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,520
really kind of blew me away
because they, from what I what I

1011
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:32,920
studied, yeah, I don't want to
speak for the Orthodox Church

1012
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,440
here, but.
From what I understand, I'm sure

1013
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,920
they won't mind.
They love a Mormon

1014
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:39,520
fundamentalist letting them know
what they are.

1015
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,080
What they tell them, what they
Yeah, they tell them where they

1016
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,400
stand here.
Here's their here's the

1017
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,000
teaching.
I understood from them that

1018
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,800
confession is not about
receiving forgiveness, that

1019
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,360
basically you should repent on
your own even before confession.

1020
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,720
The point of confession is not
about is not a requirement for

1021
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,640
forgiveness of your sins.
It's a, it's a tool to help you

1022
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,520
overcome your sins.
Interesting.

1023
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:10,120
And so one of these guys that I
was studying explained that a

1024
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,920
proper confession begins the
moment your last confession

1025
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,160
ends.
And he suggests that you keep a

1026
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,800
journal.
And when you find yourself

1027
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,560
struggling with things in life,
struggling with temptation,

1028
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,400
struggling with sin, you know, I
got, I got upset at the kids and

1029
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,280
blew my top and I'm not feeling
good about that.

1030
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:31,520
Write it down.
And the point of confession is

1031
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,280
you're, you're conferring with
basically a priesthood authority

1032
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,080
to help you on a, on a well,
I'll get into that later.

1033
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:44,200
But a path of sanctification.
And so you're not confessing

1034
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,840
because God won't forgive you.
Christ won't forgive you.

1035
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,600
You're confessing because you
want to do better next.

1036
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,280
Time.
And this man is authorized to

1037
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,560
give you counsel and guidance to
do that.

1038
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:59,680
You know what it sounds like and
and I'm going to get heat for

1039
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:04,160
this, I think, but sounds like a
sponsor in a a right, right.

1040
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:05,720
He's not there necessarily.
Pass.

1041
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:07,840
He's not there to judge.
He's not there passing

1042
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,400
judgement.
He's just like, well, next time

1043
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,600
don't go to the bar, right,
right.

1044
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,800
Or if it's too hard to walk by
the bar, pick a different route

1045
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,720
home, right?
That was something to, to, to

1046
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:22,040
give you guidance, you know, or
this is what worked for me when

1047
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,200
I was kicking the booze, right?
Whatever it is, there is

1048
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:31,800
somebody there that that is able
to help you pick up the pieces

1049
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,680
again, right?
I I exactly.

1050
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:38,560
And I and with that perspective,
looking back in Mormonism, I

1051
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,720
realized I'm not actually
completely opposed to this

1052
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,520
anymore as I as I originally
was, but I'm like, why?

1053
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,520
Why does it, why is it bothering
me in Mormonism?

1054
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:52,000
And I realized it's because the
judgement is there because of

1055
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:58,320
recommended interviews, which
are absolutely question, you

1056
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:00,920
know, questions of, you know,
judgements.

1057
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,160
Yes.
You are not good enough to go to

1058
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,160
the temple because you did that
and you've done that.

1059
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,200
You need to confess it so you
can be forgiven, but that also

1060
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:12,320
disqualifies you.
Right.

1061
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:19,320
This one, let me push back a
little on this, OK, because

1062
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,960
recommends were issued from the
beginning with Joseph, Oregon

1063
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,920
and Brigham, right?
So how do we rectify, reconcile

1064
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:31,000
those two things?
Well, policy in my opinion is

1065
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:38,520
because from what I can tell
recommends were originally.

1066
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:42,080
The idea behind a recommend is
the bishops using his own

1067
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:47,880
spiritual discernment and what
you discuss as far as what you

1068
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,400
need to receive that
recommendation is, is between

1069
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:52,520
you know, you and, and your
Bishop and your bishops

1070
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,360
exercising his own priesthood to
discern whether you're prepared

1071
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:58,920
or not.
At a certain point in time,

1072
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,160
though, I, I think he actually
even started with Brigham Young.

1073
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:07,360
There were requirements placed
policy requirements.

1074
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:11,600
It's no longer between, you
know, you your Bishop having

1075
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,560
discernment, whether or not
you're worthy or not.

1076
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:19,440
It's now your your Bishop having
discernment plus a checklist.

1077
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:25,080
And over time, the ethicist
becomes the checklist.

1078
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,200
When you bring a checklist into
that, when you bring in a policy

1079
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:33,480
into that like that, I mean, I
don't know every I had, I never

1080
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:37,680
had a single temple recommend
interview where it went beyond

1081
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:39,440
the checklist.
Me neither.

1082
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,000
It was always really just about
the checklist.

1083
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:42,760
Me.
Yep.

1084
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,320
Was I really prepared?
Was I really worthy?

1085
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,920
Were there things that that I
needed help with at that time?

1086
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,640
There absolutely were things I
needed help with at that time.

1087
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:56,880
Every time there's, there's yet.
And see, that's kind of the

1088
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:59,000
interesting thing with the, with
the orthodox perspective of this

1089
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,160
too, is you're doing this
regularly.

1090
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:02,920
Why?
Because there's always

1091
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,280
something.
And so when it's not about

1092
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,520
judgement, it's just about
being, hey, I'm a man, I'm a

1093
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,840
mortal, I'm fallible, I've got
weaknesses.

1094
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:18,320
And this is a method, a process
in which I can receive counsel

1095
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:21,480
and guidance to help me on my
path towards Christ.

1096
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:26,200
That's a beautiful thing.
Yeah, and, and it look, a

1097
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,440
certain level of accountability
is a good thing, right?

1098
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,280
That's why personal trainers
exist, right?

1099
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,880
Because if dudes just kept, if
there was no accountability,

1100
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,960
speaking from personal
experience, it's a lot easier to

1101
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,560
just be like that.
Let's have another cheeseburger,

1102
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,000
right?
Let's, let's, let's toss

1103
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:49,320
another, another donut back.
We're good, right?

1104
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:53,840
But having someone you know
you're going to report to, it's

1105
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:55,040
a healthy thing.
Right.

1106
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,520
And this is I, I remember
discussing on my mission with my

1107
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,960
companions was like, you know
what, what do you need to go to

1108
01:02:59,960 --> 01:03:02,440
your Bishop for?
What don't you need to go to

1109
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:04,840
your Bishop for?
Well, it's only you only need to

1110
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,800
go to your Bishop for the big
things, right?

1111
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,600
And I don't know where the
policy is today, but there's

1112
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:13,880
probably a a list, there's
probably somewhere a list of

1113
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:17,400
these sins you have to talk to
your Bishop about to be forgiven

1114
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:22,960
these sins you don't.
And that also creates what I, in

1115
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,480
my opinion, a very broken
dichotomy.

1116
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,160
There are great bishops out
there and you have guys that

1117
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,720
maybe a guy's an alcoholic and
he's struggling with and he's

1118
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,800
abusive and he knows he is and
he's not happy with who he is.

1119
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:37,120
And he goes to his Bishop for
help.

1120
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:41,000
And, and those opportunities,
you'll see a lot of great

1121
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:45,920
bishops step up and, and they'll
deliver that ministering that

1122
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:47,680
that the people need.
Right.

1123
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,880
Right to help them out.
But who's going to their Bishop?

1124
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:54,920
Because, you know, I got, I got,
I got in a fight with my wife.

1125
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,400
And I'd bet it might be my.
Fault, right?

1126
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:00,240
Nobody is.
You're not going to schedule an

1127
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:02,960
appointment with your Bishop
because you got in an argument.

1128
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,000
No, and, and to be fair to the
bishops, they don't have time

1129
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:07,000
for.
That no, that's true dude.

1130
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:08,040
They don't.
Have time for that.

1131
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:10,360
They're like, look, dude, you're
at some point, right?

1132
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:12,680
But I think this is part of that
too, right?

1133
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,880
Is to have somebody who you're
confessing to who can be like,

1134
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:21,440
look bro, I'm here to help, but
at some point I don't even know

1135
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,840
everything, right?
Like go work out your, your,

1136
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:29,120
your, your issues amongst
yourselves and it gets really

1137
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,160
ugly.
Then call me, right?

1138
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:33,760
Right.
But when you have a practice or

1139
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:37,720
a ritual, right where in this
ritual you're going to talk

1140
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,160
about these things, whatever
those things are.

1141
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:42,480
Right.
Or for wherever you're at,

1142
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,480
whether you're you're you,
whether you're you don't work,

1143
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,520
you're alcoholic, you're abusing
your family, or you're, you've

1144
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:51,560
got it all together.
Either way, you've got flaws and

1145
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:53,720
weaknesses.
Nonetheless, you've got things

1146
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,480
that you're struggling with and
you got somebody who is part of

1147
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:00,720
this practice you've developed a
relationship with to help guide

1148
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:02,920
you through that.
I think that's a really cool,

1149
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:05,320
beautiful thing.
That is a cool and beautiful

1150
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,400
thing.
And I'm not saying I think

1151
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:11,320
Mormonism should adopt it one
for one, but what we've already

1152
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,680
got in mainstream Mormonism
compared to the Doxy I.

1153
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:21,680
Look there, there have been
plenty of times that confession

1154
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,160
or the equivalent thereof has
been used to breakdown people.

1155
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,400
Yeah, right.
Let's look.

1156
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,960
I hope they don't come after me.
Mr. Miscavige, I apologize ahead

1157
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:36,880
of time.
If we look at Scientology,

1158
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:42,000
right, you go in you, you, you
hold the cans, right?

1159
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:45,440
And they hook you up to the
meter and then like, look, any

1160
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,120
religion that makes a Mormon go,
dude, that's back crap, crazy.

1161
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,080
You may want to reconsider
anyway, 'cause we believe some

1162
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,480
off the wall stuff.
But you grab the cans, they

1163
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,600
start asking you really deep,
probing questions and.

1164
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:01,680
A tape recorder's.
Running and a tape recorder's

1165
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:04,160
running, right?
And files are kept.

1166
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:07,360
We know that that does happen in
religious organizations from

1167
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:11,880
time to time, right?
It can be used as a club.

1168
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:13,320
Absolutely.
Right.

1169
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:17,240
And so I'm like you, I think
there's got to be a happy medium

1170
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:20,880
somewhere, but that has to be
really defined.

1171
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,880
And those lines have to be
really stark so that nobody

1172
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,360
crosses over.
There can't be a Gray area with

1173
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:28,720
that.
That's got to be black and

1174
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:31,720
white.
Yeah. 100% and the main, the

1175
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,960
main reason I bring this up
though is just again, I had

1176
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:37,640
completely discounted the idea.
You know, I looked at the way

1177
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:40,960
this works in Mormonism.
I can't find a theological

1178
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,320
justification.
I see a lot of harm in this.

1179
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:49,000
There's a lot of people that
suffer all kinds of unnecessary

1180
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:54,640
guilt and trauma, I believe,
over a culture that expects

1181
01:06:54,640 --> 01:07:00,360
everybody to be perfect.
And if you mess up and, but if

1182
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,480
you do mess up, you also you got
to you got to talk to somebody

1183
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:07,240
who may or may not be in a
position to to relate, help

1184
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:11,400
understand.
So I'll I'll confess something

1185
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:17,920
here that really bugged me in my
time in the LDS church.

1186
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:21,760
Have you ever been part of a
disciplinary council?

1187
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:25,360
No.
I had to sit in on one once.

1188
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:30,120
It was the most disturbing thing
I ever witnessed within the

1189
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:37,000
church because it was a woman
who wasn't married.

1190
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:46,280
She had broken some chastity
stuff with someone she wasn't

1191
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:50,680
married to, and they asked the
most graphic questions I have

1192
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:57,880
ever heard.
And as I probed deeper, that was

1193
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,680
the norm for those things,
right?

1194
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:03,480
Right.
And it was humiliating.

1195
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:07,440
Now look, I think if you mess up
bad, there should be some

1196
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:11,160
humbling right on your part.
But the way in which it was

1197
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,400
done, like there were times I'm
like, is the Fuhrer about to

1198
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:16,319
make an entrance?
Because this is getting damn

1199
01:08:16,319 --> 01:08:22,240
spooky, right?
But I'm always very nervous with

1200
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:24,960
with confession.
But I do think it's it's an

1201
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,800
important part that has we have
to find that happy medium with.

1202
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:30,520
Right.
And I had completely thrown it

1203
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:35,359
out, right until I saw this
Orthodox perspective on it.

1204
01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:38,560
Suddenly it's like, OK, there's
I can see some value here

1205
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,800
potentially, right?
It's not, maybe this isn't

1206
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,920
something to completely throw
out, but it's got to be done

1207
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:47,760
right, as you were saying.
So that was a kind of a cool

1208
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:55,680
one.
OK, this is this is really

1209
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:59,880
interesting.
So baptism already, so in a

1210
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:01,760
disagreement with Mormonism,
right?

1211
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,600
You've got infant baptism in the
lyrics and the Catholic Church,

1212
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:06,680
right.
But there actually is a, there's

1213
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:10,279
a difference between Catholic
and Orthodox understanding of

1214
01:09:10,279 --> 01:09:14,080
original sin.
So in the Catholic Church,

1215
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,439
original sin entered the world
because of Adam.

1216
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:21,560
And because of that, we're all
fallen and we are born guilty,

1217
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:22,439
right?
Right.

1218
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:26,040
We inherit that sin from Adam.
The Orthodox Church does not

1219
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:28,200
believe in original sin like
that.

1220
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:32,960
They believe that we all suffer
the consequences of the fall.

1221
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:36,319
Sure, but that.
But there's no inherent initial

1222
01:09:36,319 --> 01:09:38,920
guilt.
So kind of like men will be

1223
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,840
punished for their own sins and
not have transgression.

1224
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,319
Right, which is fascinating
because not only is that a

1225
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:46,120
Catholic thing, that's a
Catholic thing.

1226
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:48,359
And that's why you have to be
baptized or you're dead, right?

1227
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:51,680
Protestantism, though, carries
that over from Catholicism.

1228
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:57,160
The, the, the Protestant
churches also believe in

1229
01:09:57,160 --> 01:10:01,720
original sin that we enter this
world as as in a sinful state,

1230
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:06,240
you know, a newborn baby Sinner
because of Adam.

1231
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:10,000
The Orthodox Church doesn't hold
on to that.

1232
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:15,320
And so you got this religious
organization going back nearly

1233
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:16,800
to the times.
Maybe it does go back.

1234
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:19,080
It depends on, you know, whether
you believe claims, certain

1235
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:22,160
claims or still ancient
Christian Church that has that

1236
01:10:22,480 --> 01:10:25,040
doctrine.
The Catholics change it.

1237
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:27,200
The Protestants keep that
change.

1238
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:29,160
That becomes the norm in
America.

1239
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:33,520
And then you have Joseph Smith
comes along and starts teaching,

1240
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:37,360
Oh no, there's no, you know,
there's no original sin like

1241
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:40,440
that.
We're all fallen and we're

1242
01:10:40,440 --> 01:10:43,520
susceptible to sin because of
that fall, But we don't, we're

1243
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:45,480
not guilty because of what Adam
did.

1244
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:47,240
That's revel.
That was revel.

1245
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,280
That's revolutionary Mormon
theology.

1246
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:52,360
But it's, but it's been a part
of the Orthodox Church from the

1247
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:57,000
beginning.
So that's, that was pretty

1248
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:01,720
fascinating.
So I I just had a quote on that.

1249
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:06,280
I forgot to put the reference
though, maybe I'll share it

1250
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:08,360
anyways.
So this is this is a quote from

1251
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:14,080
some Orthodox teacher some sort.
But a child that dies before it

1252
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:17,520
is baptized does not mean that
it too cannot receive

1253
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:21,120
deification.
It is born pure, and when it

1254
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:23,520
dies, it continues to exist in
pureness.

1255
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:27,560
Its soul has not become infected
with darkness caused by sin.

1256
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:32,240
Thus its soul remains healthy
and in its natural state, and is

1257
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:35,400
not prevented in any way from
partaking in the divine light.

1258
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:39,440
Now there's a word that jumped
out at me, which was

1259
01:11:39,440 --> 01:11:41,680
deification.
Yeah.

1260
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:46,640
That's been understood for a
while to be an exclusively

1261
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:49,560
Mormon kind of doctrine.
Yeah, right.

1262
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:56,000
This idea of becoming like God.
Yeah, right.

1263
01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:00,000
Well, sure, let's jump over that
real quick.

1264
01:12:00,440 --> 01:12:02,960
This was this was the probably
the biggest thing that blew me

1265
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:07,560
away because in my mind, there's
a few keys of Mormonism that

1266
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:11,800
were absolutely just
groundbreaking the revolutionary

1267
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:13,840
and in Christian and Christian
thought.

1268
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:20,560
And you know the idea, you know,
this original sin stuff, that's

1269
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:24,520
that's a big one, right?
But the biggest of all, and

1270
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:29,840
probably the greatest heresy of
Mormonism is this idea that

1271
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:32,640
exaltation means godhood.
Right.

1272
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:35,520
That's the greatest heresy in
all of Mormonism.

1273
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,440
This turns Christianity and, you
know, turns it on its head and

1274
01:12:39,440 --> 01:12:43,320
it's it's probably one of the
theologically one of the

1275
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:47,680
greatest reasons Mormons are
rejected even today among

1276
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:51,160
Christians.
It's not so much continuing

1277
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:53,440
revelation.
It's not so it's this idea that

1278
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:57,520
men can become gods.
That's just utter blasphemy.

1279
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:03,840
So turns out the Orthodox have
this thing called theosis.

1280
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:10,600
And I'm going to paraphrase some
of this here, but the idea is,

1281
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:16,920
is that when you are baptized,
you enter into a, a kind of a

1282
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:25,840
path, but it's a path that you
need to reach the end of.

1283
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:32,680
And from a, from a basic
worldview perspective, one of

1284
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:36,280
the big difference Orthodox has
is that from most of

1285
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,320
Christianity, especially
Protestantism, the what is the

1286
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:41,960
purpose of the Gospel?
That why do you have a church?

1287
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:46,920
Why I, I've been born again.
OK, so now what?

1288
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:51,320
Well, moral improvement, moral
improvement.

1289
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:58,160
The Orthodox, though, don't buy
into that.

1290
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:00,480
It's not about moral
improvement.

1291
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:07,680
It's about Iosis, which is a
it's becoming, it's a personal

1292
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:16,240
experience with God now it's a
it's a it's an interesting topic

1293
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:18,480
in Orthodox.
It appears to me that this isn't

1294
01:14:18,480 --> 01:14:20,640
actually.
Widespread.

1295
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:26,280
Understood even among Orthodox
parishioners, but it is a part

1296
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:28,560
of the theology and there's
certain people in the Orthodox

1297
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,240
Church that are are strongly
kind of pushing and promoting

1298
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:35,240
this idea because they want the
rest of of their congregations

1299
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:39,800
to understand that when you're
baptized you begin a path, but

1300
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,040
the objective is a personal
encounter with God.

1301
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:49,480
It a quote that I found it was
really beautiful.

1302
01:14:49,480 --> 01:14:54,640
I there's a book on theosis
written by I think some some St.

1303
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,920
or monk or Bishop in the
Orthodox Church.

1304
01:14:58,440 --> 01:15:01,480
But it is a beautiful quote.
It totally reminds me of

1305
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:05,600
something Joseph Smith would
have said, which is that God

1306
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:09,520
became man so that man can
become God.

1307
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:17,720
You got some echoes of As God is
now man may become right.

1308
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:21,440
Interesting.
So apparently that wasn't

1309
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:25,520
completely just off the cuff
from Joseph Smith.

1310
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:30,440
Apparently there's an ancient,
still existing tradition of

1311
01:15:30,440 --> 01:15:34,320
Christianity that has always
believed that.

1312
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:39,800
And they teach that in Genesis
when it says that man is created

1313
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:43,840
in God's image, that means
something.

1314
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:46,960
The dogs aren't created in God's
image.

1315
01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:49,240
The horses aren't creating God's
image.

1316
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:51,240
The trees are not created in
God's image.

1317
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:56,360
Man is created in God's image.
And what that means is that we

1318
01:15:56,360 --> 01:16:00,520
are, we are intended to become.
More.

1319
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:06,440
More and that this this yearning
that man has, cannot be

1320
01:16:06,440 --> 01:16:08,280
satisfied through moral
improvement.

1321
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:12,640
There's nothing wrong with moral
improvement, but to what ends?

1322
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:14,840
Right.
Like if you're a born again

1323
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:18,800
Christian, OK, great.
And let's say that, you know,

1324
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:22,600
you still have, you know, you,
you get you have a temper and

1325
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:26,760
you get and you get in these
fights at work and and you're

1326
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:30,040
kind of a bully.
OK, well, that's not very

1327
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:32,280
Christian.
So we should overcome that,

1328
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,040
right?
Moral improvement.

1329
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,120
But to what ends?
You've already been saved.

1330
01:16:36,480 --> 01:16:38,800
Right.
Well, and and that's, that's

1331
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:40,880
always been my point of
contention, right?

1332
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:43,920
Like if look, once I'm saved,
I'm good.

1333
01:16:44,480 --> 01:16:45,920
Well, I'm not going to church
anymore.

1334
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:48,240
I got done while I need to get
done.

1335
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:50,600
So I'm just going to sit on the
couch and watch football.

1336
01:16:51,080 --> 01:16:52,160
Right.
Right.

1337
01:16:52,440 --> 01:16:56,520
If Mormonism required something
more right, And I've always said

1338
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:59,200
that one of the, the things that
Joseph restored that was

1339
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:04,560
absolutely genius was this idea
that our humanity didn't need to

1340
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:08,560
be unholy, that we could be holy
as human beings.

1341
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:13,800
And I and from what you're
describing within Eastern, in

1342
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:17,560
the Eastern Orthodox, we can see
echoes of that for sure.

1343
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:21,320
And if you think about the idea
of an image, right, I mean,

1344
01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:23,240
we're not supposed to have
graven images, right?

1345
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:24,880
That's an idol.
But what is that?

1346
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:26,240
Why?
What is that idol?

1347
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:32,600
Well, that the idol is a, an
embodiment of what?

1348
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,280
It's what it's an image of,
right?

1349
01:17:35,480 --> 01:17:39,000
And if so, if that's what an
image is and we are made in the

1350
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:43,400
image of God, that has profound
theological.

1351
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:46,840
It's not just that, hey, we kind
of we share the same shape.

1352
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:50,440
Right, right.
You know, and I've heard so

1353
01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:54,200
often that this idea of we're
created in God's image is you're

1354
01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:57,240
just talking about your ability
to reason, right?

1355
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:00,720
And I'm like, that still seems
really in person.

1356
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:03,280
Right, right.
It's a part of it.

1357
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:06,680
It sure it is.
But as a whole, you got to take

1358
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:09,320
all of that stuff.
Our ability to reason, our

1359
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:12,840
creativity, our capacity for
love.

1360
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:16,600
You got to take all of that and
realize that that's a

1361
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:19,040
manifestation of something
divine.

1362
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:22,880
Of of our origins.
And our potential and what we

1363
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:27,160
were created for.
So that just blew me away.

1364
01:18:27,440 --> 01:18:32,200
The greatest heresy of Mormonism
is as is, as ancient as the

1365
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:34,440
Catholic Church.
Yeah.

1366
01:18:34,440 --> 01:18:38,160
And see that's.
Well, and I say Catholic before

1367
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:39,280
they split, right?
Right.

1368
01:18:39,480 --> 01:18:42,400
It goes all the way back.
And I've said this before on the

1369
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:44,760
on talking about these sorts of
things.

1370
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:47,560
Oh, Joe Smith, man, he was a
hell of a guesser, wasn't he?

1371
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:50,800
I mean, he, he's able to hit all
these bull's eyes all over the

1372
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:54,200
place and we don't know about
him until hundreds of years

1373
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:55,640
later.
You know, and something else

1374
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:58,760
really important to this, it's
not just more so, you know,

1375
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:05,360
Gnostic Christianity, Cabalic
Hebrewism, there's other places

1376
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:08,640
that have a, a, a glimmer of
this idea as well, right?

1377
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:13,320
But I, those are things that
I've never really accepted.

1378
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:15,720
And a lot of people look at that
and say, well, I'm good with

1379
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:18,440
that because that matches my
beliefs.

1380
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:20,160
And so, oh, I guess I'm a
Cabalist.

1381
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:26,760
So I guess I'm a, a Gnostic.
The process is different, right,

1382
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:28,840
Right.
If you look at the Cabalic

1383
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:32,120
ascension to divinity, what's it
based off of?

1384
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:33,960
Knowledge.
Right.

1385
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:37,560
What you know, gaining
knowledge, gaining secrets,

1386
01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:42,320
going through this process of,
of learning these mysteries,

1387
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:43,520
right?
Then.

1388
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:47,720
You're you can become ascended.
Well, and that fits with what

1389
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:50,440
Joseph Smith said, right?
It does, but it doesn't.

1390
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:54,440
But Joseph said man cannot be
saved any faster than he can

1391
01:19:54,440 --> 01:19:58,080
obtain knowledge.
Right, but I guess the

1392
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:00,120
difference is, is that in the
Cabalic?

1393
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:03,720
In the Cabalic idea of this,
there's no morality involved in

1394
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:06,960
this whatsoever.
OK, that's a problem, right?

1395
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:07,840
Yeah.
Yeah.

1396
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:09,600
No, that's a problem.
I see what you're saying.

1397
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:13,280
It is.
It is sacred knowledge above all

1398
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:14,120
else.
Right.

1399
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:17,600
It's magic, right?
It's like Wiccan or Warlock.

1400
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:20,160
OK, if you learn the magic word
you've got control over.

1401
01:20:20,240 --> 01:20:22,440
Fire I.
See, you can make that.

1402
01:20:22,480 --> 01:20:24,240
Yeah, I see.
I see what you're saying now.

1403
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:27,840
It's, it's knowledge above
everything else.

1404
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:31,560
Maybe knowledge exclusivity,
right?

1405
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:34,040
So.
In Mormonism, how do you attain

1406
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:36,400
to godhood?
Well, it's through knowledge,

1407
01:20:36,480 --> 01:20:38,720
right?
What just calls what it is, but

1408
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:43,320
also there is, right?
But there's also, there's also a

1409
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:46,680
code of conduct that is
expected, right?

1410
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:49,240
You're going to get married,
you're going to have children,

1411
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:51,920
you're going to perform
ordinances, which is going to

1412
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,120
give you that knowledge that you
need, right?

1413
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:57,880
There are certain places in the
endowment that talk about you

1414
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:00,520
got to know these things to get
to where you want to go.

1415
01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:05,880
And so in Mormonism, I would say
it it, it strives for the

1416
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:10,360
balance between the gnosis,
right, the knowledge and the

1417
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:15,680
participatory ordinances, as
well as our ability to continue

1418
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:20,240
to gain, in my opinion, better
morality to emulate the Savior

1419
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:21,880
more in our lives.
Right.

1420
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:26,760
So from an academic perspective,
you can look at great literature

1421
01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:33,360
and you can analyze and be an
expert at it and understand all

1422
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:37,520
of that, right?
But to me, what makes the reason

1423
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:40,480
I study classic literature is
because it's transformation.

1424
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,840
Right.
It's not about being able to be

1425
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:47,040
like, oh, look, I'm so smart.
I can tell you I can, I can

1426
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:51,080
quote War and Peace.
It's about, well, what can you

1427
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:52,440
learn from War and Peace?
Right.

1428
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:55,840
It's about how will that change
who you are?

1429
01:21:55,840 --> 01:22:01,720
Because ultimately, Mormon
theology, we become gods through

1430
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:07,040
becoming like God.
And obviously there's a certain

1431
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:10,440
amount of knowledge required to
do that, but it's not really an

1432
01:22:10,440 --> 01:22:14,200
issue of intelligence or
knowledge or how smart you are.

1433
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,960
It's ultimately a matter of who
you are on the inside.

1434
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:19,920
Do you share the same character
as God?

1435
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:23,960
Well, and, and let's talk about
that, right, Because we don't

1436
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:27,440
get to that place without
practicing, right?

1437
01:22:27,440 --> 01:22:31,400
It's like anything else.
You could pick your sport.

1438
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:35,760
You can break down all the game
film you want, but until you go

1439
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:40,400
and you get on the field or on
the court and you try to

1440
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:43,880
implement that.
Want more from the Mormon

1441
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:47,560
Renegade podcast?
Head over to the Mormon Renegade

1442
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:51,520
Rumble page to see all the
videos from the podcast and the

1443
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:53,680
fundamental news program for
free.

1444
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:58,040
Still not enough?
Then join the Mormon Renegade

1445
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:01,160
Locals page by clicking the red
join button.

1446
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:04,920
And for $5.00 a month, you can
have access to podcast

1447
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:08,720
transcripts, Renegade
exclusives, as well as weekly

1448
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:11,840
live stream show with the host
Dave Sanders.

1449
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:15,520
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

1450
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:20,680
But until you go and you get on
the field or on the court and

1451
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:26,040
you try to implement that right,
that video is not going to help

1452
01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:27,520
you much.
It's experiential.

1453
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:28,680
You're right.
Exactly.

1454
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:32,200
You can be an expert in in
football and you can know

1455
01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:35,360
everything there is to know
about different plays, different

1456
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:39,560
strategies, tactics, character,
physical characteristics that

1457
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:41,200
are needed to do this and that
and the other.

1458
01:23:41,440 --> 01:23:45,320
But can you play the game right?
Entirely different?

1459
01:23:45,480 --> 01:23:46,920
Yep.
Entirely different skill set.

1460
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:49,040
And you kind of need both to be,
really.

1461
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:49,680
Good.
Kind of.

1462
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:52,920
You absolutely do, yeah.
You really got to, you got to

1463
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:56,960
have it both.
And so that's why to me,

1464
01:23:56,960 --> 01:24:01,000
Gnosticism and Cabalism has
never been appealing, because I

1465
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:03,560
like the objective.
I believe there's truth in that

1466
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:07,600
objective of becoming.
Gods, it's just unhealthily,

1467
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:11,240
unhealthily weighted towards
knowledge and and no experience.

1468
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:13,880
Exactly.
So with that, what's the

1469
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:17,640
Orthodox perspective?
Well, it's pretty interesting

1470
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:20,440
because they believe that this
process happens through the

1471
01:24:20,440 --> 01:24:23,280
Church.
That's why you have a church.

1472
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:28,560
The Church is the body of
Christ, and so it's through

1473
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:34,840
participating in these
ceremonies over and over again

1474
01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:40,400
that you start developing this
perfected, improved character.

1475
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:43,200
I gotcha.
And while in the Orthodox

1476
01:24:43,200 --> 01:24:49,680
Church, there's no statements on
who, who is and who isn't, you

1477
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:52,800
know, who made it right, who's
achieved theosis?

1478
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:57,200
I mean, they've got there,
there's claims of certain Saints

1479
01:24:57,200 --> 01:24:59,760
and monks that have done things.
And I, I disagree with certain

1480
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:04,040
aspects of that because it's
very, very aesthetic path to, to

1481
01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:07,640
theosis proclaim.
But for the, for the general

1482
01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:12,480
body, it's, there is that moral
improvement, but it's moral

1483
01:25:12,480 --> 01:25:17,560
improvement through grace in
Christ and through this

1484
01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:20,560
ceremonial process.
And that ceremonial process

1485
01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:22,800
happens in the church.
So that's why you go to church,

1486
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:27,000
because the church is the body
of Christ, and that's how you're

1487
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:32,280
going to eventually attain
Christ's presence, possibly in

1488
01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:40,440
this life.
But see, OK, I just have kind of

1489
01:25:40,440 --> 01:25:43,520
an issue with saying you just
got to show up, right?

1490
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:45,280
Just keep coming to church and
it's going to get you there

1491
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:47,120
because I don't think that's
enough, right?

1492
01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:52,120
I think, I think if there's one
place I feel like evangelicals

1493
01:25:53,440 --> 01:25:56,840
kind of have some really good
points, it's on this idea of a

1494
01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:58,680
personal relationship with
deity.

1495
01:25:59,440 --> 01:26:03,000
It's not something you hear a
lot about in, in the LDS Church,

1496
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:07,440
right, Or, or in, in a couple
other sects of Mormonism.

1497
01:26:07,440 --> 01:26:09,040
I do believe that has to be
there.

1498
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:13,280
I, I feel like what church
should do and, and that's both

1499
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:17,400
in the physical meetinghouse as
well as the church, so to speak

1500
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:22,920
in its teaching is to equip,
equip people to have to get to a

1501
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:26,920
point to where they can foster
that relationship with deity.

1502
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,880
Right.
Well, and that yeah, absolutely.

1503
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:34,240
And I guess this is to me, this
is one of the key.

1504
01:26:34,320 --> 01:26:37,320
So so Joseph Smith taught the
self aggrandizement.

1505
01:26:37,320 --> 01:26:38,320
It's not a false.
Principle.

1506
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:41,960
No, as long as you seek to bring
everyone up to that same level

1507
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:43,760
around you.
Right.

1508
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:45,840
But that's actually the process,
yes.

1509
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:49,920
That is, that's not just a
requirement, a moral

1510
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:52,240
requirement.
That's actually how you actually

1511
01:26:52,240 --> 01:26:59,600
do achieve self aggrandizement.
And so again, you know, there is

1512
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:02,240
a certain amount of importance
in church because that's where

1513
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:04,600
you get those opportunities to
serve.

1514
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:07,840
And that may or may not be in
the Orthodox Church, but

1515
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:13,080
regardless as principle that I,
I do see the importance of

1516
01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:16,360
church in that regards, but even
more so it's family.

1517
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:20,040
And see, that's the fascinating
thing, because in Mormonism,

1518
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:26,000
this, this path to theosis has a
huge prerequisite.

1519
01:27:26,480 --> 01:27:29,320
Right this.
Barrier that you you know you

1520
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:33,920
can go so far, but you shall not
pass unless you're sealed.

1521
01:27:34,080 --> 01:27:40,280
Yep.
Because without that, I think

1522
01:27:40,280 --> 01:27:42,520
that the the the the path's not
there.

1523
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:46,840
No, you can't.
No, men can't get there on their

1524
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:48,960
own and women can't get there on
their own.

1525
01:27:49,400 --> 01:27:52,440
The only way you're getting
there is to be paired up.

1526
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:54,360
Right?
Exactly.

1527
01:27:54,560 --> 01:27:58,920
And, and look, that's one place
I will say that Mormonism is

1528
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:00,840
completely unique in
Christendom.

1529
01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:08,280
Is no other church or no other
theology places as much emphasis

1530
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:12,240
on the marriage covenant than
Mormonism?

1531
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:17,080
Yeah, period.
That's also part of the genius,

1532
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:22,640
too, of what Joseph did, 'cause
not only did he upend things in

1533
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:25,800
the ways we've already talked
about, but he upends it by

1534
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:28,040
recasting Eve in her proper
light.

1535
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:30,080
No longer is she the mother of
our sorrows.

1536
01:28:30,080 --> 01:28:35,280
She is the reason we are here
and she is just as divine as

1537
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:39,440
Adam.
So you you bring up Eve and Adam

1538
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:41,200
this.
So here's here's something else

1539
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:45,360
interesting in in Orthodoxy that
I found that I'm I'm now kind of

1540
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:47,440
questioning a little bit.
I'm a little more interested in

1541
01:28:47,440 --> 01:28:51,200
this, but then I was before when
you, when I, when I look at

1542
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:54,920
Catholicism, there's a few
things that I've always had

1543
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:57,320
issues with, right?
And currently one of them is

1544
01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:00,720
this, this veneration of Mary
and this praying to Mary and

1545
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:02,840
stuff like that.
Always kind of, you know, kind

1546
01:29:03,440 --> 01:29:05,520
of wrong.
And you get a lot of that in

1547
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:08,600
Orthodox, in the Orthodox Church
too, but.

1548
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:14,440
The divine Feminine.
Right, but I was looking at some

1549
01:29:14,440 --> 01:29:18,520
of their teachings on this from
and then call Catholics might

1550
01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:21,440
share this, I don't know, but
from the Orthodox perspective,

1551
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:29,920
they see Christ as a new Adam.
So Adam, the original Adam is

1552
01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:35,560
the creates this fall and this
new Adam creates an opportunity

1553
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:40,440
for a man to ascend, right.
They're they're and when Mormon

1554
01:29:40,440 --> 01:29:42,400
theology, you understand they're
both key components.

1555
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:44,280
You can't have one without the
other.

1556
01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:50,840
They look at Eve and Mary the
same way though, because without

1557
01:29:50,840 --> 01:29:59,000
Mary there can be no Christ.
And I am actually fascinated by

1558
01:29:59,080 --> 01:30:04,360
the Orthodox perspective on on
Mary, this veneration, because

1559
01:30:04,480 --> 01:30:05,840
there's some truth to that,
right?

1560
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:08,360
Without Mary there's sure, but
there's no Christ.

1561
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:15,680
And but to why such a high level
of, of veneration?

1562
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:21,360
There's a an understanding and
there's some pseudepigraphal

1563
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:22,440
work.
I don't know if anybody's ever

1564
01:30:22,440 --> 01:30:24,320
talked about this before, if
you're familiar with it.

1565
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:26,840
And I'm not an expert at this, I
haven't actually read it, but

1566
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:29,200
I've heard it explained that
there's some pseudepigraphal

1567
01:30:29,840 --> 01:30:35,320
works that describe that tell
the story of Mary, that she was

1568
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:38,600
basically consecrated to the
temple as a child.

1569
01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:44,720
And she grew up in the temple as
a basically, you know, her job

1570
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:47,680
was like an ordinance worker,
like a like a permanent

1571
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:50,560
ordinance worker in the temple.
That's for everything.

1572
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:53,520
And she's consecrated her life
to that.

1573
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:55,960
And her life's been consecrated
to that.

1574
01:30:56,560 --> 01:31:03,240
Well, when she's at a certain
age, she's suddenly pregnant.

1575
01:31:05,240 --> 01:31:08,280
Well, how is she pregnant?
She's not married.

1576
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:10,080
There's no.
Right.

1577
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:14,520
How did this happen?
It looks like a scandal waiting

1578
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:17,280
to happen.
But the priest at the temple

1579
01:31:18,480 --> 01:31:22,800
knew Mary and, you know, had
this love for her.

1580
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:30,080
And one of these priests was
Joseph, and he's this older man

1581
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:35,920
who's married and has a family.
And the priests decide we've got

1582
01:31:35,920 --> 01:31:38,120
to do something for Mary.
You know, we're not sure exactly

1583
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:40,720
what happened here, but we think
there's something God's working

1584
01:31:40,720 --> 01:31:45,680
in this and she needs to be
married so that this isn't a

1585
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:46,600
huge.
Smile.

1586
01:31:46,840 --> 01:31:51,280
So the priests draw lots to
decide which one of them will

1587
01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:55,400
take Mary as their wife.
What book is this out of the

1588
01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:57,080
Apocrypha?
I don't remember.

1589
01:31:57,080 --> 01:31:58,760
I wish I remember this.
I'll you know what?

1590
01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:02,200
I'll hit up Ken Peterson, the
dude literally wrote the book

1591
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:05,160
Mormonism in the Apocrypha and
I'll see.

1592
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:07,440
I'll see if I.
Can't get an answer on that.

1593
01:32:07,440 --> 01:32:08,880
I do.
Know that we call it apocrypha,

1594
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:11,800
but this is more of a of a of a
standard work in.

1595
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,160
In the Eastern Orthodox
religion, OK, it's.

1596
01:32:15,240 --> 01:32:16,760
I I believe that I believe it's
considered.

1597
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:21,440
If it's not Canon explicitly,
it's certainly more so than than

1598
01:32:21,440 --> 01:32:23,120
Mormonism is looking at it.
See.

1599
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:25,720
That paints a different picture
than what the New Testament does

1600
01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:27,440
though, right?
Well, does it though?

1601
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:29,760
Is it a?
Is it a different picture or a

1602
01:32:29,760 --> 01:32:31,360
different context?
I don't think anything's

1603
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:34,320
contradictory.
I don't know, though, because

1604
01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:37,200
if, if, if these priests are
sitting around the temple going,

1605
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:40,160
OK, whoever draws the short
straw, they're going to marry

1606
01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:42,840
this woman.
But if you read the New

1607
01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:45,640
Testament, Joseph's distraught
over this.

1608
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:47,920
Right.
Right, That is a different

1609
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:50,440
context, right.
That's not necessarily being

1610
01:32:50,440 --> 01:32:54,600
like guess I'll have to marry
her versus the guy going marry.

1611
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:56,480
Well, I think you screwed around
on.

1612
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:59,280
Well, maybe.
But is he distraught because he

1613
01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:00,440
thinks he shrewd around with
her?

1614
01:33:00,440 --> 01:33:04,560
Or is he distraught because
she's pregnant and he cares

1615
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:05,640
about her?
He doesn't want these

1616
01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:07,200
consequences.
She's going to get kicked out of

1617
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:09,640
the temple.
Well, I think, I think both,

1618
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:12,240
right?
I think, I think if we look at

1619
01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:17,560
what Joseph's up against here,
he stands to being the

1620
01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:20,720
laughingstock as well.
Like you couldn't even keep his

1621
01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:22,480
girl from screwing around,
right?

1622
01:33:24,120 --> 01:33:29,000
The other thing is is that by
marrying her according to Jewish

1623
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:32,760
custom, he is admitting I'm the
one that screwed around with

1624
01:33:32,760 --> 01:33:38,120
Mary.
He is saying, yeah, it was mine.

1625
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:42,640
I was not chased.
So there there is some they

1626
01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:45,120
don't necessarily completely
jive here.

1627
01:33:45,480 --> 01:33:49,320
But however I want to say this,
I don't think that discounts

1628
01:33:49,320 --> 01:33:52,920
that right.
I think that there I think there

1629
01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:55,520
could be a a happy medium in
there somewhere.

1630
01:33:55,880 --> 01:33:58,960
I I need to get with with some
guys to figure this out 'cause

1631
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:00,760
this is fascinating.
Yeah.

1632
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,760
And so from what I understand,
Joseph's first wife is actually

1633
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:07,000
becomes Mary's midwife.
OK.

1634
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:13,960
When Christ is born and Christ's
brothers are essentially half,

1635
01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:16,240
well, not even half brothers.
Kind of step brothers.

1636
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:18,520
Kind of step brothers, yeah,
they're essentially step

1637
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:24,080
brothers, which I'll be honest,
for me, this actually, I, I, I

1638
01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:28,920
like this idea because it does
sort of resolve something.

1639
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:33,960
Because in, in Mormonism, we
have a very unique perspective,

1640
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:38,440
very unique perspective on the
conception of Christ, which is

1641
01:34:38,440 --> 01:34:43,280
that Christ was not miraculously
conceived through the spirit,

1642
01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:47,160
through the Spirit, right.
But that God the Father

1643
01:34:47,160 --> 01:34:54,320
essentially Adam is comes to her
and that is the by and and and

1644
01:34:54,320 --> 01:34:59,960
Christ is the byproduct of any
just like any other pregnancy

1645
01:35:00,680 --> 01:35:06,880
which presents this idea then in
my mind that Mary essentially is

1646
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:11,320
becomes the wife of Adam or a
wife of Adam.

1647
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:19,680
And if Mary's the wife of Adam,
then why is Mary fooling around

1648
01:35:19,680 --> 01:35:25,240
with Joseph right later on?
Well, that's a good point too,

1649
01:35:25,240 --> 01:35:29,320
right?
Because as I said, and, and this

1650
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:32,160
is the part of the the nativity
story, if you will, that I found

1651
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:36,840
fascinating, we concentrate, and
rightfully so, on Mary and on

1652
01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:39,600
that birth.
But I feel like Joseph gets

1653
01:35:39,600 --> 01:35:42,320
glossed, right?
Because there's some

1654
01:35:42,320 --> 01:35:44,200
uncomfortability here for
Joseph.

1655
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:46,760
Right.
Because he's about to take on

1656
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:51,320
himself sin.
That's not his right a a

1657
01:35:51,320 --> 01:35:54,920
perceived sin.
And he has to be OK with this

1658
01:35:55,440 --> 01:35:58,320
either way.
Either way, he's got to be OK

1659
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:01,960
with people probably talking
about him, right?

1660
01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:05,320
Like Joseph, he couldn't keep it
in his pants.

1661
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:07,800
You know what I'm saying, right?
I mean, there's all sorts of

1662
01:36:07,800 --> 01:36:13,240
things here that that stand to
make Joseph's life absolutely

1663
01:36:13,240 --> 01:36:14,440
miserable.
Right.

1664
01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:17,800
But it's even.
But it's even in here.

1665
01:36:17,880 --> 01:36:24,080
OK, this might be a little bit
blasphemous, but imagine being

1666
01:36:24,080 --> 01:36:25,560
Joseph though.
Oh yeah.

1667
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:27,160
OK.
And take the traditional

1668
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:30,680
narrative.
OK, and your here's your wife,

1669
01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:33,160
but really, your wife is God's
wife.

1670
01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:38,720
Yeah.
And but now she's your wife.

1671
01:36:40,680 --> 01:36:45,160
I I I can see certain really
uncomfortable situations arising

1672
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:47,640
arising from that.
Well, yeah.

1673
01:36:47,640 --> 01:36:52,400
But I, I also think if that's
the case, I don't think it'd be

1674
01:36:52,400 --> 01:36:56,200
any more.
And if if Joseph's a polygamist

1675
01:36:56,200 --> 01:36:58,760
as well?
Well, if he's a polygamist and

1676
01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:01,520
he's actually kind of an old
man, and he's just doing this to

1677
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:04,480
help Mary save, and that's why
he disappears early in the New

1678
01:37:04,480 --> 01:37:06,640
Testament.
And, and that could be too,

1679
01:37:06,760 --> 01:37:08,400
right?
That's that could be a

1680
01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:11,440
possibility.
Nobody get their panties in a

1681
01:37:11,440 --> 01:37:13,200
bunch either.
We're just two dudes talking

1682
01:37:13,200 --> 01:37:21,560
crap.
OK, But if, if, if that's the

1683
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:25,080
case, then yeah, that, that,
that seems to, to clean that up

1684
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:26,560
a little bit.
So there, there is something

1685
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:30,440
there to think about.
The the other thing I would say

1686
01:37:30,440 --> 01:37:34,560
as well is that that's a lot of
pressure, right?

1687
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:37,480
I want you to put yourself in
the place of Joseph right now.

1688
01:37:38,120 --> 01:37:40,520
You know whose kid that is,
right?

1689
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:43,920
Are you cool with letting him be
born in a Manger?

1690
01:37:45,440 --> 01:37:48,960
He's the King of Kings, right?
He's heaven's King.

1691
01:37:49,240 --> 01:37:52,000
And you know what?
Dude's going to be born in a

1692
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:54,640
Manger.
There must have been a complete

1693
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:58,680
sense of failure on Joseph's
part, right?

1694
01:37:59,040 --> 01:38:01,840
Until you realize it's just
fulfilling prophecy.

1695
01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:08,000
Yeah, absolutely.
So as Christ becomes the new

1696
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:11,960
Adam, the Orthodox view Mary as
the New Eve.

1697
01:38:13,160 --> 01:38:17,880
And you know, I'm not, I'm not
advocating praying to Mary or

1698
01:38:17,880 --> 01:38:22,960
worshipping Mary.
But if she's Adam's, if really

1699
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:29,640
she's Adam's wife, then she's
she's not just a somebody.

1700
01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:33,400
Yeah, well.
She's beyond that she's she's

1701
01:38:33,400 --> 01:38:36,360
essentially a a goddess.
Well, yeah.

1702
01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:40,480
And I think that early brethren
kind of pointed to that, right?

1703
01:38:40,480 --> 01:38:43,160
I don't I don't think this is
completely new territory.

1704
01:38:43,160 --> 01:38:46,800
For more on this.
No, but it explains where to me

1705
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:50,440
though it it explains is like
what if What if the early church

1706
01:38:50,440 --> 01:38:51,960
understood this?
Right.

1707
01:38:52,480 --> 01:38:56,640
Well, but it was lost over time.
But the tradition of honoring

1708
01:38:56,640 --> 01:39:01,160
Mary as essentially a divine
being, not one that saved our

1709
01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:04,200
souls like Christ did, but
nonetheless a divine being?

1710
01:39:05,080 --> 01:39:07,280
Suddenly that makes a heck of a
lot more sense.

1711
01:39:07,520 --> 01:39:09,640
Right.
You know, and this puts us

1712
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:12,920
again, as fundamentalists in a
very unique position.

1713
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:16,280
And let me explain why.
Just a couple years ago, there

1714
01:39:16,280 --> 01:39:19,600
was a talk in General Conference
by one of the newer apostles.

1715
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:23,960
I can't remember who it was, but
he had basically said, look, I

1716
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:27,400
know we're all excited about
Heavenly Mother, but nobody get

1717
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:29,800
too excited because we really
don't know that much about her.

1718
01:39:30,720 --> 01:39:33,520
Well, if you're a
fundamentalist, you can say, all

1719
01:39:33,520 --> 01:39:35,440
right, we know some stuff.
Which one are you talking about,

1720
01:39:36,320 --> 01:39:38,440
right?
Eve, Eve or Mary, Right.

1721
01:39:38,440 --> 01:39:42,280
I mean, there's, there's some
stuff here that that really is,

1722
01:39:42,320 --> 01:39:47,440
is pretty profound that that
quite frankly, no one else in

1723
01:39:47,440 --> 01:39:50,120
Mormonism is equipped to answer
except fundamentalists.

1724
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:52,640
Right.
And without fundamentalism, I

1725
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:54,960
get.
If I was a Protestant, I would

1726
01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:57,440
just absolutely, you know, this
Mary, veneration is just

1727
01:39:57,440 --> 01:39:58,840
absolute blasphemy.
Yeah.

1728
01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:01,560
As a fundamentalist, I have to
look at it with certain degree

1729
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:06,360
of well.
You know, exactly because.

1730
01:40:06,440 --> 01:40:11,080
Because like you said, right,
the knowledge is lost, but the

1731
01:40:11,080 --> 01:40:13,480
tradition remains.
Yeah, right.

1732
01:40:14,080 --> 01:40:17,920
And that's huge, right?
Because then in some weird way,

1733
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:20,160
it might become kind of
idolatrous.

1734
01:40:20,560 --> 01:40:22,240
It could be, but you cannot make
anything happen.

1735
01:40:22,320 --> 01:40:24,480
But you can make the church now.
You can make Christ an idol.

1736
01:40:24,480 --> 01:40:26,360
You can make the scriptures,
right?

1737
01:40:26,400 --> 01:40:27,920
I mean, that's just the truth of
it.

1738
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:33,840
Yeah, so, but the interesting
thing is with that too, it

1739
01:40:34,040 --> 01:40:36,600
almost with the understanding
that the Orthodox Church

1740
01:40:36,640 --> 01:40:38,640
understands this idea of
theosis.

1741
01:40:39,080 --> 01:40:42,600
It actually kind of to me puts a
different spin on the

1742
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:50,120
understanding of also the
Saints, because not only do is

1743
01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:53,560
there a, a, a veneration and
this prayer to Mary, there's

1744
01:40:53,560 --> 01:40:59,320
also this tradition of praying
to Saints and asking for them.

1745
01:40:59,320 --> 01:41:01,480
It's, it's a, from what I
understand, I don't want to, I

1746
01:41:01,480 --> 01:41:04,120
don't want to just completely
throw these, throw them under

1747
01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:05,800
the, it's not a worship of the
Saints.

1748
01:41:06,400 --> 01:41:09,880
It's a, you're praying to them
for intercession.

1749
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:12,800
So you're praying to them so
that they can approach God.

1750
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:17,560
And but the presumption there is
that they have a place where

1751
01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:23,600
they can do that.
And to me it makes me not wonder

1752
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:27,680
if it's not knowing that if you
don't have this idea of theosis

1753
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:28,520
then.
It's just it.

1754
01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:31,160
It's pretty.
Blasphemous in my mind with the

1755
01:41:31,160 --> 01:41:35,880
idea of theosis though, Well,
what if these Saints are people

1756
01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:38,960
who achieved theosis and that's
the difference.

1757
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:45,000
That's the the significance of
why these Saints are special.

1758
01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:47,560
Or at least originally that
wasn't the original.

1759
01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:48,760
I'm not saying that's how it is
now.

1760
01:41:48,920 --> 01:41:52,920
Obviously, they don't have the
same theology we do, but what if

1761
01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:55,160
that theology existed at a
certain point?

1762
01:41:55,160 --> 01:42:00,680
And that's what kind of led to
this concept of, of this kind of

1763
01:42:00,680 --> 01:42:04,760
what we see as worship of the
Saints, because the idea is that

1764
01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:06,920
a St. is somebody who has
achieved theosis.

1765
01:42:07,560 --> 01:42:14,120
OK, so let me ask this.
Did any of the Saints that we

1766
01:42:14,120 --> 01:42:17,680
know of today that are prayed to
in like the Catholic Church or

1767
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:22,760
wherever, did any of them exist
before the great Apostasy?

1768
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:27,960
Well, yeah, like Peter, OK.
But other than Peter, going

1769
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:33,280
forward, can we point to any?
Could we point to Ignatius?

1770
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:36,240
Could we point to those other
ones?

1771
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:39,160
Well.
I have to look into that, but I

1772
01:42:39,200 --> 01:42:42,240
think where we're at today with
declaring Saints is probably not

1773
01:42:42,240 --> 01:42:43,000
accurate.
Right.

1774
01:42:43,040 --> 01:42:45,040
But, but you see what I'm saying
though, right?

1775
01:42:45,040 --> 01:42:47,680
Because they're going to be
missing key ordinances.

1776
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:51,320
Right.
That would be needed to achieve

1777
01:42:51,320 --> 01:42:53,480
theosis right from a Mormon
point of.

1778
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:56,560
View from a Mormon point of
view, but from an original

1779
01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:59,640
church point of view, if there's
an understanding of theosis and

1780
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:02,320
understanding that certain
people achieve that and that

1781
01:43:02,320 --> 01:43:04,600
these people achieve this, are
called Saints.

1782
01:43:04,920 --> 01:43:09,280
Right, OK.
And now they've lost these

1783
01:43:09,280 --> 01:43:11,360
ordinances, they've lost
priests, but they still have

1784
01:43:11,640 --> 01:43:15,480
this kind of theology that's.
OK.

1785
01:43:15,480 --> 01:43:17,360
I see what you're.
I see what you're saying.

1786
01:43:17,720 --> 01:43:23,040
Not so much Saints as in they're
actually, I don't know, deified,

1787
01:43:23,240 --> 01:43:25,960
right.
You're saying that that it's a

1788
01:43:25,960 --> 01:43:30,880
holdover from the days when they
understood theosis a little bit

1789
01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:31,640
more.
Right.

1790
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:33,320
OK.
And it was and and they were

1791
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:36,760
attaining it in those days.
In what days?

1792
01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:39,480
In the days when the.
Church was established by Christ

1793
01:43:40,640 --> 01:43:42,880
before the Great Apostasy, as
you said.

1794
01:43:43,480 --> 01:43:46,520
See, I we'd have to go back and
do some looking to see who was

1795
01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:49,800
around for that.
Well, like Peter, Peter, Peter.

1796
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:52,400
Absolutely.
I I but that's not the only St.

1797
01:43:52,400 --> 01:43:54,000
in that.
No, no I'm not.

1798
01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:55,920
But I'm not suggesting that they
all are.

1799
01:43:56,080 --> 01:43:57,600
What?
I'm OK, you're saying what?

1800
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:02,400
I'm suggesting is that if you're
alive and Peter just died.

1801
01:44:03,320 --> 01:44:05,320
And.
The church says Peter's a St.

1802
01:44:05,440 --> 01:44:09,800
We're canonizing it as we know.
He that we, we, we can hang our

1803
01:44:09,800 --> 01:44:12,880
hat on because he was running
around with a big JC, right?

1804
01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:15,080
Exactly.
I was talking about when you

1805
01:44:15,080 --> 01:44:19,040
said Saints.
I went to host Peter, right?

1806
01:44:19,360 --> 01:44:21,960
Or post apostasy Saints, right?
No, no, no.

1807
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:26,640
I'm saying that tradition of
venerating these Saints to me

1808
01:44:27,120 --> 01:44:30,560
looks like it's a it's a
corrupted form of what

1809
01:44:30,560 --> 01:44:36,200
originally was recognition that
some of these mortal men and.

1810
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:39,160
Women had achieved that.
Theosis.

1811
01:44:39,160 --> 01:44:41,800
It basically did become deified.
Right.

1812
01:44:43,160 --> 01:44:46,080
Yeah, Yeah, No.
And and then and then again.

1813
01:44:46,080 --> 01:44:48,640
The knowledge is lost, but the
tradition remains.

1814
01:44:49,440 --> 01:44:50,960
Yep, Exactly.
OK.

1815
01:44:51,280 --> 01:44:54,560
And then with that, if you look
at that as a as an idea,

1816
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:56,720
suddenly you say, well, so
what's the name of the church

1817
01:44:56,720 --> 01:44:59,160
today?
The Church of Jesus Christ.

1818
01:44:59,480 --> 01:45:03,320
Of latter day.
Of Latter day Saints, what's a

1819
01:45:03,320 --> 01:45:05,840
St.
Isn't that funny that we don't

1820
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:08,560
have a definition despite it
being in the name of our church?

1821
01:45:08,560 --> 01:45:13,760
We don't really have a hard and
fast definition, and frankly

1822
01:45:13,760 --> 01:45:17,640
neither do the Catholics or
Orthodox in my opinion, but it's

1823
01:45:17,720 --> 01:45:19,280
pointing to something in my
mind.

1824
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:21,280
I think you're right.
I think you're right.

1825
01:45:21,600 --> 01:45:27,560
And if that's the case, sure
makes an interesting it.

1826
01:45:27,680 --> 01:45:29,840
It starts to make you wonder
about Joseph Smith a little.

1827
01:45:30,600 --> 01:45:33,560
Bit right, Right.
I mean.

1828
01:45:33,760 --> 01:45:37,640
So is this Christchurch only or
is it Christchurch and Joseph

1829
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:40,400
Smith's church?
Joseph Smith achieved theosis if

1830
01:45:40,400 --> 01:45:44,680
Joseph Smith was deified.
Yeah.

1831
01:45:45,320 --> 01:45:47,600
Then is he not a St.
Right?

1832
01:45:47,600 --> 01:45:49,760
And is this not his church in a
way too?

1833
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:56,240
Well, yeah, and I mean.
It's not the Church of Jesus

1834
01:45:56,240 --> 01:45:59,400
Christ for Latter Day Saints,
right?

1835
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:01,680
She said.
Jesus Christ of Latter Day.

1836
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:04,200
Saints, you realize if I keep,
if we keep going down this road,

1837
01:46:04,600 --> 01:46:06,880
I'm I, well, I don't care about
trouble.

1838
01:46:07,120 --> 01:46:10,120
I what I'm going to have to do
is be like, put a great big

1839
01:46:10,120 --> 01:46:12,760
disclaimer on it and be like, I
want to see your Mormon cred

1840
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:15,080
before you get a hold of this
because I don't want to blow

1841
01:46:15,080 --> 01:46:18,280
anyone's mind.
But no, no, this is good stuff,

1842
01:46:18,320 --> 01:46:20,000
right?
And I think this is what, I'll

1843
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:22,440
be honest, I think this is one
of the gifts of the Restoration,

1844
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:24,600
right?
Is this being able to sit down.

1845
01:46:24,600 --> 01:46:26,640
This is what the old guys meant
by reckoning.

1846
01:46:26,880 --> 01:46:29,760
When someone say, I reckon what
they're saying is, is I've

1847
01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:32,280
thought this through.
I've thought with guys, this is

1848
01:46:32,280 --> 01:46:36,480
what this is.
But yeah, that's interesting

1849
01:46:36,480 --> 01:46:38,880
too.
And, and if you take some

1850
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:45,800
interpretations of, of how
theosis works, you know, maybe

1851
01:46:45,800 --> 01:46:51,880
Joseph, if Joseph Smith is the
testator, you know, is, is, is,

1852
01:46:52,000 --> 01:46:54,400
would he be part of that church
as well, Right.

1853
01:46:54,680 --> 01:46:58,400
And there's, there's all this,
oh, it's all, it's all open now,

1854
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:00,240
right?
It something comes open.

1855
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:03,520
And you know, personally, I
believe that John Taylor is

1856
01:47:03,520 --> 01:47:05,480
another one who achieved the
OSIS.

1857
01:47:05,480 --> 01:47:07,920
Sure.
And so that would be.

1858
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:11,080
It's it's it's of.
John Taylor too.

1859
01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:14,880
Yeah.
So here's another interesting

1860
01:47:14,920 --> 01:47:18,240
Here's some So Speaking of.
Now here's here's something else

1861
01:47:18,240 --> 01:47:25,760
to think about because I do
believe men even today, I don't

1862
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:27,880
know who they are.
I just have AI just have a

1863
01:47:27,880 --> 01:47:29,960
feeling that that that is the
case.

1864
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:33,600
Some must have had their calling
an election made sure.

1865
01:47:34,560 --> 01:47:36,520
So they're part of it too,
right?

1866
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:39,160
This is the beautiful thing
about the restored gospel.

1867
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:42,640
That's a thing.
Well then we can all be part of

1868
01:47:42,640 --> 01:47:43,800
that.
Yes.

1869
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:46,160
Right.
It's an open invitation.

1870
01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:49,040
You just got to be willing to
pay the price, right?

1871
01:47:49,400 --> 01:47:54,000
And so in order to understand
our own theology, and I'm just

1872
01:47:54,360 --> 01:48:00,080
throwing this out here, maybe we
should be looking a lot more at

1873
01:48:00,240 --> 01:48:03,120
the Orthodox Church and its
teachings as well as

1874
01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:04,600
Catholicism.
I think we've looked at that to

1875
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:07,320
a certain degree, but especially
the Orthodox Church and that

1876
01:48:07,320 --> 01:48:10,160
stuff, because again, my
understanding is the Orthodox

1877
01:48:10,160 --> 01:48:14,000
Church is like fundamentalism
is, is the Catholic, is the

1878
01:48:14,000 --> 01:48:16,000
Mormon, is the LDS Church.
Right.

1879
01:48:16,600 --> 01:48:19,520
And they were like, yeah, we're
not going that way.

1880
01:48:19,840 --> 01:48:21,600
We're holding on to some of
these things.

1881
01:48:21,920 --> 01:48:26,160
Right.
But something just dawned on me.

1882
01:48:28,440 --> 01:48:32,680
If the quote Catholic
fundamentalist in Eastern

1883
01:48:32,680 --> 01:48:37,320
Orthodoxy can lose their way,
then there's no promise that we

1884
01:48:37,320 --> 01:48:39,600
as fundamentalists.
Oh, absolutely.

1885
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:44,200
Just because we adopt that tile
right, fundamentalist, orthodox,

1886
01:48:44,800 --> 01:48:48,760
just because we adopt that
title, does not ensure that

1887
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:50,960
truth gets carried on.
Right.

1888
01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:54,800
Right.
That should be a cautionary tale

1889
01:48:55,240 --> 01:48:56,880
in this moment, right?
Like, oh.

1890
01:48:57,040 --> 01:48:59,160
Absolutely.
Just because I'm claiming this

1891
01:48:59,160 --> 01:49:02,600
doesn't mean that I'm entitled
now, right?

1892
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:06,080
Well, and that's why I started
this whole journey and again, in

1893
01:49:06,080 --> 01:49:08,240
the 1st place is because I'm
looking at a certain degree and,

1894
01:49:08,280 --> 01:49:12,000
and something seems wrong.
Your bigger picture.

1895
01:49:12,560 --> 01:49:14,880
But before I get back to that, I
want to go a little bit more

1896
01:49:14,880 --> 01:49:18,280
into some of these fragments
that in an, in the Orthodox

1897
01:49:18,280 --> 01:49:19,800
Church I found that were
fascinating.

1898
01:49:19,800 --> 01:49:23,680
So, so I guess first going back
to baptism.

1899
01:49:24,920 --> 01:49:29,080
So their baptismal ordinance has
a few things.

1900
01:49:29,120 --> 01:49:33,560
I found one thing they blessed
the water, and we didn't do that

1901
01:49:33,560 --> 01:49:34,240
in the Mormon.
Church.

1902
01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:37,440
No, that was but.
Fundamentalism, this is white

1903
01:49:37,480 --> 01:49:39,240
pretty widespread.
You know, when, when you're

1904
01:49:39,240 --> 01:49:41,960
doing a baptism, you, you bless
the water before the baptism is

1905
01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:44,520
done.
And as I was researching, and

1906
01:49:44,520 --> 01:49:49,080
this is straight off of an
American Orthodox official

1907
01:49:49,120 --> 01:49:53,200
website script for baptism, and
I was, I was researching, going

1908
01:49:53,200 --> 01:49:54,240
through and there's some neat
stuff.

1909
01:49:54,240 --> 01:49:56,360
Their, their baptismal ceremony
is actually kind of awesome.

1910
01:49:56,400 --> 01:49:59,800
It's it's not like maybe a
temple or if it's in a way that

1911
01:49:59,800 --> 01:50:02,640
there's, there's different parts
and there's pieces.

1912
01:50:02,640 --> 01:50:04,840
It's, it's pretty cool.
I I thought it was part of part

1913
01:50:04,840 --> 01:50:07,120
of that's really neat.
One of the really fascinating

1914
01:50:07,120 --> 01:50:12,840
parts though, was they, they
consecrate some oil and they do

1915
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:16,880
an anointing on the person being
baptized beforehand.

1916
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:19,280
And this is I'm just going to
read the script.

1917
01:50:19,280 --> 01:50:22,520
OK.
The priest proceeds to anoint

1918
01:50:22,520 --> 01:50:26,040
the one to be baptized.
He dips two fingers or the brush

1919
01:50:26,040 --> 01:50:28,880
into the blessed oil, and traces
the sign of the cross on the

1920
01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:33,880
child as follows.
On the forehead, saying, Priest,

1921
01:50:34,440 --> 01:50:39,120
the servant of God, fill in the
blank is anointed with the oil

1922
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:42,240
of gladness.
In the name of the Father, and

1923
01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:43,920
of the Son, and of the Holy
Ghost.

1924
01:50:44,120 --> 01:50:47,720
Amen.
On the breast and shoulder,

1925
01:50:48,440 --> 01:50:52,080
saying unto the healing of soul
and body.

1926
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:57,040
On the ears saying.
Unto the hearing of the faith.

1927
01:50:57,680 --> 01:51:02,760
On the hands, saying, Thy hands
have made and fashioned me.

1928
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:07,960
On the feet, saying that he or
she may walk in the way of thy

1929
01:51:07,960 --> 01:51:11,880
commandments.
You've been initiated in

1930
01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:15,400
Mormonism through the temple.
That should be very familiar.

1931
01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:20,960
That should be very familiar.
And, and this backs up something

1932
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:24,320
that I, I have thought
personally for a while, right?

1933
01:51:24,320 --> 01:51:31,440
Because so often I would see
these echoes of this, what

1934
01:51:31,440 --> 01:51:34,800
happened, right?
Well, obviously if you start to

1935
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:38,320
lose access to a temple, but you
want to keep those things alive

1936
01:51:39,800 --> 01:51:44,000
and things start getting
conflated over time, things

1937
01:51:44,000 --> 01:51:48,720
start becoming a little murky.
Like, you know, I remember I did

1938
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:50,960
this thing.
Well, when did you do it?

1939
01:51:51,240 --> 01:51:54,480
Well, it was in, in, in the
sacred ordinance in my house

1940
01:51:55,080 --> 01:51:58,480
because we didn't have a temple.
And then you do it to your kids,

1941
01:51:59,400 --> 01:52:02,920
grandkids, your great grandkids.
Give it 1000 years or.

1942
01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:06,760
Two, 200 years, right?
And eventually someone's like,

1943
01:52:06,960 --> 01:52:10,120
yeah, I think you do it right
before baptism, right?

1944
01:52:10,240 --> 01:52:12,160
And, and that's just where it
comes from, right?

1945
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:15,600
And it's a conflation of of
these ordinances, right?

1946
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:17,960
And I think that's where those
echoes come from.

1947
01:52:18,520 --> 01:52:25,600
And also I think because I think
originally it was really hard to

1948
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:30,520
think about being from that
tradition of Judeo Christianism,

1949
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:34,800
right, without a temple, right?
And so I think there was an

1950
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:38,240
innate something that said we
got to keep it alive.

1951
01:52:38,280 --> 01:52:40,760
We got to got you something to
keep it alive.

1952
01:52:40,840 --> 01:52:45,280
And I think that is a little bit
of overcompensation along with

1953
01:52:46,040 --> 01:52:49,120
conflation, right?
But going back to the point you

1954
01:52:49,120 --> 01:52:51,280
made earlier, this is something
that, especially in

1955
01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:53,920
fundamentalism, we need to also
be watching out for.

1956
01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:58,320
Yes, yes, For so long we've done
what we've had to do.

1957
01:52:58,440 --> 01:53:01,760
And that's great because you
know what, Those old timers kept

1958
01:53:01,760 --> 01:53:04,920
us around for us.
We're in a different time now,

1959
01:53:05,120 --> 01:53:07,480
right?
Look, you and I both go to the

1960
01:53:07,480 --> 01:53:11,480
same community and we're about
to have a temple for the first

1961
01:53:11,480 --> 01:53:19,400
time in a long, long, long time.
And we need to make sure that

1962
01:53:19,880 --> 01:53:23,400
that folks are getting there
because it's important, right?

1963
01:53:23,920 --> 01:53:25,920
So important.
For so long, we've done what

1964
01:53:25,920 --> 01:53:28,560
we've had to.
Now we get to do it the way we

1965
01:53:28,560 --> 01:53:29,680
should.
Right.

1966
01:53:31,120 --> 01:53:34,720
And you know, the other thing is
the fullness of the gospel has

1967
01:53:34,720 --> 01:53:37,360
also been, in my opinion, and
trusted in the fundamentalism.

1968
01:53:37,640 --> 01:53:42,320
It absolutely has.
And with that, a proper.

1969
01:53:42,440 --> 01:53:45,840
So here's something that never
made sense to me in, in, in

1970
01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:49,880
Mormon and, and when I was in
the LBS church, which was this

1971
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:52,960
idea that you're baptized, you
receive your temple ordinance

1972
01:53:52,960 --> 01:53:55,440
and the and the pinnacle is
you're sealed, right?

1973
01:53:55,760 --> 01:53:57,440
Yeah, your endowment, all that
stuff and you're done.

1974
01:53:57,440 --> 01:54:00,240
And now you endure to the end.
Yes.

1975
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:02,720
Well, what does that mean?
Well, stay active.

1976
01:54:03,360 --> 01:54:04,760
Stay active.
Don't lose your temple

1977
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:06,640
recommend.
Keep working the program.

1978
01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:10,520
Keep working the program.
And honestly, it's, it's, it's

1979
01:54:11,160 --> 01:54:14,440
more like that's kind of more of
a Protestant type of an attitude

1980
01:54:15,200 --> 01:54:20,160
when we have been given the
fullness to understand that the

1981
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:25,520
Joseph Smith restored everything
necessary that we can actually

1982
01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:27,440
achieve theosis.
Every single one of us can.

1983
01:54:29,920 --> 01:54:33,120
But we have to have the the
knowledge and we have to have

1984
01:54:33,120 --> 01:54:37,560
the ordinances.
And the Orthodox Church over

1985
01:54:37,560 --> 01:54:39,600
time has lost these things.
And they still have this

1986
01:54:39,600 --> 01:54:41,600
understanding of this.
They still have an amazing

1987
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:44,600
understanding of the theology of
it, that God became man so that

1988
01:54:44,600 --> 01:54:47,440
man can become God.
But they don't have the path.

1989
01:54:48,160 --> 01:54:53,600
The path's not available to him.
And in Mormonism, we've we've

1990
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:57,080
been granted all that, but
there's not a lot of emphasis on

1991
01:54:57,160 --> 01:54:58,960
my opinion.
No, I don't think so.

1992
01:54:59,200 --> 01:55:01,960
There's not even an
understanding of it and and when

1993
01:55:01,960 --> 01:55:04,320
I was because again, back when I
was in the church, that was the

1994
01:55:04,320 --> 01:55:06,920
end.
I didn't know I had to study

1995
01:55:06,920 --> 01:55:11,160
doctrine covenants on my own
without the church prescribed

1996
01:55:11,160 --> 01:55:15,880
study guide to gain an
understanding of theosis and I

1997
01:55:15,880 --> 01:55:20,240
did on my mission and it was had
nothing to I I just took the

1998
01:55:20,240 --> 01:55:22,440
scriptures at face value.
I took the revelations at face

1999
01:55:22,440 --> 01:55:25,680
value and I'm like, oh TNC, Oh,
this is telling us how we can

2000
01:55:25,680 --> 01:55:29,200
have a personal encounter with
God, how we can attained, how we

2001
01:55:29,200 --> 01:55:31,320
can truly be joint heirs.
Right.

2002
01:55:32,960 --> 01:55:35,480
In that divine promise of
godhood.

2003
01:55:38,160 --> 01:55:41,800
But it was secret.
Yeah, it's it was.

2004
01:55:41,960 --> 01:55:44,320
It was not.
I mean, I I when I got I asked

2005
01:55:44,320 --> 01:55:45,800
companions about.
None of my companions knew

2006
01:55:45,800 --> 01:55:47,960
about.
I got home from my mission, I

2007
01:55:47,960 --> 01:55:49,360
started talking to people about
it.

2008
01:55:49,360 --> 01:55:55,080
Nobody knew anything about this.
And so it's not really well

2009
01:55:55,080 --> 01:55:59,960
understood, right.
And then along with that, in

2010
01:55:59,960 --> 01:56:04,920
fundamentalism, becoming a
fundamentalist, you get learn

2011
01:56:04,920 --> 01:56:07,880
it, you gain some, I've gained
some knowledge of the fullness

2012
01:56:07,880 --> 01:56:10,520
of the ordinances as well and
realize that, you know, the

2013
01:56:10,520 --> 01:56:14,400
ceiling is not the capstone
ordinance in the restoration,

2014
01:56:14,520 --> 01:56:17,920
that there's a second anointing.
That's a part of that process as

2015
01:56:17,920 --> 01:56:23,440
well.
And so it's tragic to me.

2016
01:56:23,440 --> 01:56:26,920
And it's funny because even the
Orthodox apparently, from what I

2017
01:56:26,920 --> 01:56:30,200
can tell, are struggling with
this as well, of trying to teach

2018
01:56:30,200 --> 01:56:34,120
their congregations this idea of
the potential of what it's

2019
01:56:34,120 --> 01:56:36,400
really all about, what our, what
our life is about.

2020
01:56:36,680 --> 01:56:39,200
We came down here not so that we
could live a moral life.

2021
01:56:39,200 --> 01:56:42,600
We came down here so that we can
do all the things necessary so

2022
01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:44,680
that we can become gods
ourselves, right?

2023
01:56:44,840 --> 01:56:49,000
Anything short of that is a
complete missing the mark of why

2024
01:56:49,000 --> 01:56:52,240
we're here and what what our
purpose is.

2025
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:57,480
Absolutely, absolutely and.
And again, it needs to be

2026
01:56:58,200 --> 01:57:01,600
pursued properly, right?
Otherwise you end up with

2027
01:57:01,680 --> 01:57:05,840
Gnosticism and Cabalism.
It needs to be pursued properly.

2028
01:57:05,840 --> 01:57:09,560
But these things exist.
These things are real.

2029
01:57:09,560 --> 01:57:13,080
And this opportunity, it's,
it's, it's insane to me to a

2030
01:57:13,080 --> 01:57:16,520
certain degree how much even
Mormonism and fundamentalism is

2031
01:57:16,520 --> 01:57:23,280
not focused on that big picture.
You know, the other thing that I

2032
01:57:23,280 --> 01:57:29,040
would say to this, and, and I'm
going to get Flack for this

2033
01:57:29,040 --> 01:57:32,160
comment.
And so if I apologize to anyone

2034
01:57:32,160 --> 01:57:37,920
who's offended, this is the
danger of being completely quote

2035
01:57:38,040 --> 01:57:43,840
independent, right?
Because I've seen too many guys

2036
01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:49,480
get like down a weird rabbit
hole and then all of a sudden

2037
01:57:49,480 --> 01:57:51,400
they're no longer Mormon,
they're new age.

2038
01:57:51,800 --> 01:57:54,920
Right.
Right, even if you're

2039
01:57:54,920 --> 01:57:58,720
independent and I am, right, I,
that's what I ascribe to you

2040
01:57:58,720 --> 01:58:01,320
need to have boys around you to
pull you back in, right?

2041
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:04,640
To be like, bro, you got to
stop, right?

2042
01:58:04,640 --> 01:58:07,560
Like we got to talk this through
because you might be going down

2043
01:58:07,560 --> 01:58:13,000
a weird rabbit hole and and you
got to wonder if if some of that

2044
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:17,800
didn't happen in in like Eastern
Orthodoxy, right, right.

2045
01:58:17,800 --> 01:58:20,720
Just guys going down the rabbit
hole and no one's there to be

2046
01:58:20,720 --> 01:58:22,960
like, bro, come in there.
There's.

2047
01:58:22,960 --> 01:58:25,880
Absolutely.
Because that's exactly what you

2048
01:58:25,880 --> 01:58:26,320
do.
See.

2049
01:58:26,400 --> 01:58:29,600
So OK, there's another topic I
want to get to which is tied to

2050
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:32,000
this.
But this is what you're seeing

2051
01:58:32,000 --> 01:58:34,560
with this aesthetic monks,
right?

2052
01:58:34,600 --> 01:58:36,000
Right.
They're going to forsake

2053
01:58:36,280 --> 01:58:38,280
everything.
They're not going to have

2054
01:58:38,280 --> 01:58:40,880
families.
They're not going to have jobs,

2055
01:58:41,560 --> 01:58:44,200
they're not going to experience
anything in life.

2056
01:58:44,200 --> 01:58:46,440
They're just going to go up in
the mountain by themselves and

2057
01:58:46,440 --> 01:58:50,840
pray 24/7 so that they can
encounter God, right?

2058
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:55,840
That's that's not the way.
That is not that is a rabbit

2059
01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:57,360
hole.
And even today in the Orthodox

2060
01:58:57,360 --> 01:58:59,520
Church, that's considered
acceptable.

2061
01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:03,280
In fact that as far as they
know, that's that's your best

2062
01:59:03,280 --> 01:59:05,640
bet to achieving theosis as far
as they know.

2063
01:59:05,840 --> 01:59:08,000
You know, and you know what that
reminds me of?

2064
01:59:08,800 --> 01:59:12,960
That reminds me of the oracles
up on the mountain, right?

2065
01:59:13,480 --> 01:59:16,560
They're just reject everything
else in society.

2066
01:59:17,160 --> 01:59:20,360
We're holier than the rest.
You go to them when you need

2067
01:59:20,360 --> 01:59:22,800
some special knowledge.
Dispensed.

2068
01:59:23,720 --> 01:59:26,680
So that was the really cool
thing to me that Joseph Smith

2069
01:59:26,680 --> 01:59:30,800
really presents as far as how
you attained theosis because he

2070
01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:33,000
didn't just restore the
ordinances.

2071
01:59:33,360 --> 01:59:37,000
Building communities, community
is involved in this process.

2072
01:59:37,560 --> 01:59:40,760
He resorts the ordinances.
He there's, there's the church.

2073
01:59:40,760 --> 01:59:44,000
He does establish a church and
the church is plays a role in

2074
01:59:44,000 --> 01:59:48,760
ascertaining to that and the
emphasis on family especially.

2075
01:59:49,000 --> 01:59:52,000
You're not going to attain the
theosis by hiding from life.

2076
01:59:52,080 --> 01:59:56,480
You're going to attain theosis
by experiencing life and

2077
01:59:56,520 --> 02:00:00,680
experiencing all of it and then
coming out the other side.

2078
02:00:01,360 --> 02:00:04,760
You know, and I think he, I
think this is huge too, because

2079
02:00:04,760 --> 02:00:08,520
this, this should shift how we
view the gospel, right?

2080
02:00:09,000 --> 02:00:11,880
Too many guys I know lost their
testimony when the hard times

2081
02:00:11,880 --> 02:00:15,960
came, right?
And I thought, why, why did that

2082
02:00:15,960 --> 02:00:18,880
happen?
And when I got to the bottom of

2083
02:00:18,880 --> 02:00:24,520
when I really asked some of them
was they looked at the gospel as

2084
02:00:24,720 --> 02:00:27,640
something that was supposed to
prevent hard times.

2085
02:00:28,520 --> 02:00:30,920
That's not the truth.
The Gospel is supposed to help

2086
02:00:30,920 --> 02:00:34,360
you get through the tough times,
right?

2087
02:00:34,640 --> 02:00:37,440
Same sort of thing with them,
with the monks that ascend them

2088
02:00:37,440 --> 02:00:41,200
out, right?
Well, you're seeking after more

2089
02:00:41,200 --> 02:00:44,960
holiness, and that's great.
But how you're getting there

2090
02:00:44,960 --> 02:00:47,640
isn't going to do it because
look, dude, you.

2091
02:00:47,640 --> 02:00:49,680
Got to find the holiness and
changing dirty diapers.

2092
02:00:49,800 --> 02:00:52,680
Yes, you have to.
And, and this is where I think

2093
02:00:52,680 --> 02:00:57,240
Judaism really has it dialed in
because they'll tell you even

2094
02:00:57,240 --> 02:01:00,640
when we're performing our jobs,
it's supposed to be a prayer to

2095
02:01:00,640 --> 02:01:03,080
God, right?
You're supposed to find the,

2096
02:01:03,560 --> 02:01:06,920
the, the holiness in every facet
of your humanity.

2097
02:01:07,880 --> 02:01:11,280
And if you just descend the
mountain to just hang out and

2098
02:01:11,280 --> 02:01:14,880
fast and pray and you don't have
to worry about anything else,

2099
02:01:15,040 --> 02:01:19,920
well, and especially if you take
a vow of silence, no one's going

2100
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:22,120
to say anything that's going to
piss you off, right?

2101
02:01:22,520 --> 02:01:24,800
I mean, that's kind of no.
Trial no tests.

2102
02:01:24,800 --> 02:01:28,480
No, no, you're just you're
there, right checking out right.

2103
02:01:28,560 --> 02:01:30,600
And I don't think that's the
case right.

2104
02:01:30,600 --> 02:01:35,840
I think there there's no great
test if that's to be now, sure,

2105
02:01:35,840 --> 02:01:38,480
there might be the test of you
know what, I'd really like a

2106
02:01:38,480 --> 02:01:40,880
wife, right.
That would be rough.

2107
02:01:41,000 --> 02:01:43,520
But we get that testing and we
don't go up the mountain, right?

2108
02:01:43,680 --> 02:01:45,600
At least some of us do.
We get the tests we need.

2109
02:01:45,600 --> 02:01:48,600
We get the trials and the
challenges, whatever that may

2110
02:01:48,600 --> 02:01:50,680
be.
Whether it's you wanted a spouse

2111
02:01:50,680 --> 02:01:54,320
and you couldn't find one,
whether it's you had a spouse

2112
02:01:54,320 --> 02:01:57,920
and you lost them, whether it's
you have a child and you lost

2113
02:01:57,920 --> 02:01:59,360
them, you didn't get a child.
You want to.

2114
02:01:59,680 --> 02:02:02,760
These things happen in life and
you don't experience that

2115
02:02:03,200 --> 02:02:04,880
through avoiding it.
No.

2116
02:02:05,280 --> 02:02:08,640
And, and the other thing I'll
say is this back here, what you

2117
02:02:08,640 --> 02:02:11,000
said about temperance, right?
Balance.

2118
02:02:11,000 --> 02:02:15,520
Yeah.
What does, what does it say in

2119
02:02:15,520 --> 02:02:18,040
in first year, second, if I
can't remember which one men are

2120
02:02:18,040 --> 02:02:20,440
that they might have joy.
Yeah.

2121
02:02:21,640 --> 02:02:25,480
Look, it's hard for me now to
imagine a full measure of joy

2122
02:02:25,840 --> 02:02:30,040
without relationships, right?
Without relationships with my

2123
02:02:30,040 --> 02:02:34,280
wives, with my children, with my
brethren, all those things,

2124
02:02:34,440 --> 02:02:36,080
right.
It's hard to have a full measure

2125
02:02:36,080 --> 02:02:38,080
of joy without those.
Right.

2126
02:02:38,320 --> 02:02:40,240
And I'm, you know, I'm honestly,
I'm great.

2127
02:02:40,240 --> 02:02:43,000
I've had dark times in my life.
I'm grateful for them, looking

2128
02:02:43,000 --> 02:02:46,000
back at them now, because I
wouldn't be the person I am if I

2129
02:02:46,000 --> 02:02:47,160
hadn't gone through those
things.

2130
02:02:47,200 --> 02:02:51,520
I wouldn't experience joy to the
same degree I do now if I hadn't

2131
02:02:51,520 --> 02:03:01,360
had that sorrow back then.
You know in in athletics, it's a

2132
02:03:01,360 --> 02:03:03,520
true principle.
You'll always learn more from

2133
02:03:03,520 --> 02:03:05,960
your defeats than you will from
your victories.

2134
02:03:07,000 --> 02:03:09,800
And no pain, no gain.
Right, You don't.

2135
02:03:10,120 --> 02:03:14,200
Look, nobody's really interested
in breaking down game film if

2136
02:03:14,200 --> 02:03:18,480
you're just toasting everybody
around you, right?

2137
02:03:18,800 --> 02:03:24,440
You might be good enough to beat
everybody in your division or

2138
02:03:24,440 --> 02:03:28,120
whatever, but that doesn't mean
you're perfect at the game.

2139
02:03:28,600 --> 02:03:30,280
That doesn't mean you can't
improve.

2140
02:03:30,640 --> 02:03:34,560
And it's usually only after a
humbling that you're like, you

2141
02:03:34,560 --> 02:03:37,080
know what, we better go back and
we better watch the, the, the

2142
02:03:37,080 --> 02:03:40,160
game tape, right?
We better start seeing where

2143
02:03:40,160 --> 02:03:42,400
we're deficient so we can become
better.

2144
02:03:43,400 --> 02:03:45,960
And I think our trials do that
for us, right?

2145
02:03:45,960 --> 02:03:48,280
Absolutely.
You know, and going back to that

2146
02:03:48,680 --> 02:03:52,760
quote from Joseph Smith, you
know, as as God is, as manna is

2147
02:03:52,760 --> 02:03:56,240
now, God once was.
Well, the ramifications isn't

2148
02:03:56,240 --> 02:03:58,440
just that God went through a
probation.

2149
02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:03,320
The ratification is that as I am
now, as you are now, with all of

2150
02:04:03,320 --> 02:04:07,240
the baggage, with all the crap,
with all of the trials and the

2151
02:04:07,240 --> 02:04:11,920
challenge, the stuff that went
wrong, when all of it is a part

2152
02:04:12,120 --> 02:04:14,560
of who God is.
You know, I think we can

2153
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:19,480
sometimes I think we put God on
a pedestal and think that God is

2154
02:04:19,480 --> 02:04:26,040
just this perfect being with no
character, personality or past.

2155
02:04:26,080 --> 02:04:29,480
That's just this perfect
goodness, that's always.

2156
02:04:29,480 --> 02:04:31,120
We turned him into a white
statue.

2157
02:04:31,200 --> 02:04:33,320
Yeah, I think we turned God into
a white statue.

2158
02:04:33,320 --> 02:04:34,600
And I don't think God's that
way.

2159
02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:36,840
And if you look at, you know,
you look at the promises Christ,

2160
02:04:37,040 --> 02:04:40,600
Christ promises us to, to drink
wine with him and to feast with

2161
02:04:40,600 --> 02:04:43,120
him.
That's not something that a

2162
02:04:43,120 --> 02:04:45,640
white statue does.
No, no.

2163
02:04:45,880 --> 02:04:49,800
And, and the other thing I'll
say is that there has to be

2164
02:04:49,800 --> 02:04:53,680
proximity to deity for this all
to really work, right.

2165
02:04:54,280 --> 02:04:59,480
And we get that proximity.
If we're Mormon and we're lucky

2166
02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:02,480
to understand the Adam God
doctrine, that's where that

2167
02:05:02,480 --> 02:05:06,560
proximity comes from, right?
And we can really say, OK, so if

2168
02:05:06,560 --> 02:05:11,640
God is here, I am here.
OK, so now, now I have a

2169
02:05:12,040 --> 02:05:13,360
trajectory I can.
Trace that.

2170
02:05:13,560 --> 02:05:16,560
Lion, right?
I have a trajectory of not only

2171
02:05:16,640 --> 02:05:19,720
where I came from, but where I
want to go.

2172
02:05:20,480 --> 02:05:23,280
That's revolutionary,
absolutely.

2173
02:05:24,200 --> 02:05:28,040
So, but as far as going down
rabbit holes and stuff like

2174
02:05:28,040 --> 02:05:31,600
that, right, there's a couple,
excuse me, there's a couple of

2175
02:05:31,600 --> 02:05:34,360
things in in Orthodoxes, in
Catholic and Orthodox.

2176
02:05:34,360 --> 02:05:36,320
It kind of, it bugged me at
first.

2177
02:05:36,320 --> 02:05:38,400
And I think this is an extreme
right.

2178
02:05:38,400 --> 02:05:39,840
And this is something that I
completely reject.

2179
02:05:39,840 --> 02:05:44,480
You know, you read What is it
Osama Conky's book?

2180
02:05:44,800 --> 02:05:46,600
Mormon Doctrine.
Not Mormon doctrine.

2181
02:05:46,840 --> 02:05:49,320
Or maybe it was Talmage.
The Great Apostasy.

2182
02:05:49,560 --> 02:05:51,880
Me yeah, the great you read
something like that and you get

2183
02:05:51,880 --> 02:05:54,600
these really strong anti
Catholic sentiments, right?

2184
02:05:55,000 --> 02:05:57,400
And you started rejecting a lot
of these things maybe

2185
02:05:57,400 --> 02:05:59,920
potentially off hand with the
bias.

2186
02:05:59,920 --> 02:06:05,480
But you know, there is a so a
long time ago people didn't have

2187
02:06:05,480 --> 02:06:07,120
their own copies of scriptures,
right?

2188
02:06:07,120 --> 02:06:09,720
And so you learned your
scriptures through going to

2189
02:06:09,720 --> 02:06:12,960
synagogue or going to church,
and they'd be read to you and

2190
02:06:12,960 --> 02:06:16,680
they'd be interpreted for you.
I don't think that that's ideal.

2191
02:06:16,680 --> 02:06:19,440
I think it's great that we all
have scriptures of our own these

2192
02:06:19,440 --> 02:06:21,680
days and we can study them on
our own.

2193
02:06:21,840 --> 02:06:24,840
However, I've seen a lot of
twisting.

2194
02:06:24,840 --> 02:06:28,240
Of scripture Both.
Both of them.

2195
02:06:28,240 --> 02:06:37,320
Mormonism, Protestantism, and so
looking at this more of a

2196
02:06:37,320 --> 02:06:39,880
tradition that, you know, so
the, the Catholic Orthodox

2197
02:06:39,880 --> 02:06:42,000
there, there's an idea there
that scriptures aren't to

2198
02:06:42,000 --> 02:06:46,960
private interpretation.
There was a discouragement of,

2199
02:06:48,080 --> 02:06:51,640
of personal scripture study to a
degree because they were

2200
02:06:51,640 --> 02:06:55,880
concerned about people going
down, going down those kinds of

2201
02:06:55,880 --> 02:06:59,040
rabbit holes.
And I think it here again,

2202
02:06:59,040 --> 02:07:02,760
there's got to be a balance.
There's got to be a balance.

2203
02:07:02,760 --> 02:07:05,720
You can't just say, well, if I
can understand the scripture

2204
02:07:05,720 --> 02:07:07,880
this way, then therefore it's
true.

2205
02:07:09,080 --> 02:07:13,360
And because, you know, you got
to have something to hold onto.

2206
02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:17,040
And I'm not a huge fan of
tradition based off of my

2207
02:07:17,040 --> 02:07:19,800
character, but I, I, I recognize
that there is value.

2208
02:07:20,240 --> 02:07:24,760
There is a value to tradition.
And that's something I

2209
02:07:24,880 --> 02:07:28,920
interestingly enough can see in,
in the Orthodox Church, as far

2210
02:07:28,920 --> 02:07:32,560
as you know, they don't have
like gospel, you know, study

2211
02:07:32,560 --> 02:07:36,480
groups, Bible study groups, like
you do in, in prosodism and, and

2212
02:07:36,480 --> 02:07:40,680
to a certain degree in Mormonism
as much there the focus isn't so

2213
02:07:40,680 --> 02:07:43,840
much on can you find your own
interpretation in scriptures as

2214
02:07:43,840 --> 02:07:49,440
much as it is understand, you
know, understand what, what the

2215
02:07:49,440 --> 02:07:52,680
scriptures actually mean.
Well, and I think and.

2216
02:07:52,680 --> 02:07:55,360
Obviously that can be twisted if
the person teaching it's off

2217
02:07:55,360 --> 02:07:58,960
right, and that's certainly an
issue in in the Orthodox Church.

2218
02:07:58,960 --> 02:08:00,880
Otherwise there wouldn't have
been a need for restoration.

2219
02:08:01,080 --> 02:08:03,520
Right.
And, and, and I'll say this too,

2220
02:08:03,520 --> 02:08:06,480
right.
Sometimes the best way to do

2221
02:08:06,480 --> 02:08:11,200
that, sometimes we, let me
phrase this, most times I think

2222
02:08:11,200 --> 02:08:15,680
we think of revelation as very
personal and it is.

2223
02:08:18,080 --> 02:08:22,720
But sometimes revelation comes
in councils or it comes with a

2224
02:08:22,720 --> 02:08:25,520
group of fellows sitting down
with the scriptures going, you

2225
02:08:25,520 --> 02:08:28,800
know what, I think this means
this and it's, you know, the

2226
02:08:28,800 --> 02:08:32,320
other five guys look around at
each other and go, did you bump

2227
02:08:32,320 --> 02:08:35,640
your head this morning, right.
Or wow, I never looked at it

2228
02:08:35,640 --> 02:08:37,200
this way.
This deserves some more thought

2229
02:08:37,200 --> 02:08:39,640
and some more consideration,
right?

2230
02:08:39,840 --> 02:08:47,120
But there has to be a healthy
tension between, I'm just going

2231
02:08:47,120 --> 02:08:50,720
to interpret them the way that I
feel like I, I want to or the

2232
02:08:50,720 --> 02:08:55,760
way I feel like I'm supposed to
versus the other extreme, which

2233
02:08:55,760 --> 02:08:59,160
is you're not, you're not
thinking with the group, and

2234
02:08:59,160 --> 02:09:00,480
that's bad.
If that would have been the

2235
02:09:00,480 --> 02:09:02,360
case, we never would have had
Joseph Smith.

2236
02:09:03,480 --> 02:09:08,040
Likewise, if it was too far the
other direction, then we have no

2237
02:09:08,040 --> 02:09:12,800
cohesion wherewith you can build
that holy society that he was so

2238
02:09:12,800 --> 02:09:15,800
anxiously engaged to build,
right?

2239
02:09:16,040 --> 02:09:17,880
So there's got to be a healthy
tension.

2240
02:09:18,120 --> 02:09:21,760
Absolutely, and I think when I
look at the Orthodox Church I

2241
02:09:21,760 --> 02:09:23,400
can see an extreme.
Right.

2242
02:09:24,200 --> 02:09:27,520
But when I look at Mormonism,
fundamentalism, I also often see

2243
02:09:27,520 --> 02:09:32,160
an extreme there too, right?
And so that's why I found it

2244
02:09:32,160 --> 02:09:34,120
interesting to look at one
extreme.

2245
02:09:34,160 --> 02:09:37,600
It, it can almost be a mirror
sometimes to recognize the, you

2246
02:09:38,360 --> 02:09:46,120
know, the, your own fanaticism.
And so the scriptures, reading

2247
02:09:46,120 --> 02:09:48,200
the scriptures, studying the
scriptures, that was one thing

2248
02:09:48,200 --> 02:09:50,880
that was kind of interesting.
And I don't, I still don't like

2249
02:09:50,880 --> 02:09:54,320
it because it's, I think it's
way too far extreme, but I can

2250
02:09:54,320 --> 02:09:57,440
to a certain degree respect it.
I understand where I understand

2251
02:09:57,440 --> 02:10:01,200
where it's coming from, and it's
not necessarily it's.

2252
02:10:01,200 --> 02:10:03,720
It might not be the right
solution, but it's certainly

2253
02:10:03,720 --> 02:10:06,400
trying to solve a real problem.
So you look at that like you

2254
02:10:06,400 --> 02:10:09,720
look at Wilford Woodruff, right?
You can see where he came from.

2255
02:10:09,760 --> 02:10:11,640
You just don't agree that that's
the solution.

2256
02:10:11,920 --> 02:10:15,080
Right, OK.
And so one last thing along

2257
02:10:15,080 --> 02:10:18,080
those lines is this idea of rote
prayer.

2258
02:10:18,760 --> 02:10:20,200
Is what?
Rote prayer.

2259
02:10:20,200 --> 02:10:22,880
OK.
This is something that's really,

2260
02:10:22,880 --> 02:10:25,600
really kind of foreign.
I think generally speaking in

2261
02:10:25,600 --> 02:10:29,480
Mormonism, there is there are
certain world prayers, right,

2262
02:10:29,480 --> 02:10:31,440
like the Sacramento blessing and
things like that.

2263
02:10:31,440 --> 02:10:37,640
But when we pray, we generally
aren't repeating the same prayer

2264
02:10:37,640 --> 02:10:40,520
every time we pray individually,
right?

2265
02:10:40,880 --> 02:10:43,840
Well, there's a practice, you
know, they call the Jesus Prayer

2266
02:10:44,440 --> 02:10:47,000
and there's not.
This is just one of many, many.

2267
02:10:47,000 --> 02:10:52,440
In fact, they've got entire
books of full of prayers that

2268
02:10:52,480 --> 02:10:55,600
you know that you would repeat.
But the basics of the Jesus

2269
02:10:55,600 --> 02:10:58,240
prayer, this is a version of it.
You know, there's others, but

2270
02:10:58,280 --> 02:11:03,800
you know, it's basically Lord
Jesus Christ, have mercy upon

2271
02:11:03,800 --> 02:11:07,960
me, a Sinner.
And this prayer will be repeated

2272
02:11:08,200 --> 02:11:10,240
and repeated and repeated and
repeated.

2273
02:11:10,240 --> 02:11:13,640
And you know, my initial
reaction to that is like, well,

2274
02:11:13,640 --> 02:11:15,200
this seems really apostate,
right?

2275
02:11:15,280 --> 02:11:18,080
Vain in repetition.
Exactly you think Matthew.

2276
02:11:18,200 --> 02:11:22,880
Matthew 7.
It's in Matthew.

2277
02:11:23,120 --> 02:11:24,720
It's there.
I can vouch for you.

2278
02:11:24,760 --> 02:11:28,800
Yeah, Matthew 6-7 right.
But when ye pray, use not vain

2279
02:11:28,800 --> 02:11:31,200
repetitions as the heathen do,
for they think that they should

2280
02:11:31,200 --> 02:11:32,920
be heard for their much
speaking.

2281
02:11:33,480 --> 02:11:38,600
So I thought my first impression
is, OK, this seems weird, It's

2282
02:11:38,600 --> 02:11:41,720
foreign, so it's weird, and then
I think it's wrong, right?

2283
02:11:42,400 --> 02:11:44,000
But I wanted to really
understand it.

2284
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:47,400
So what is why do they, why?
Why do they do this?

2285
02:11:47,440 --> 02:11:51,600
From their perspective, from an
Orthodox perspective and.

2286
02:11:51,960 --> 02:11:53,360
I have an idea on this.
There's some.

2287
02:11:53,480 --> 02:11:56,880
There's some neat stuff.
So first of all, you got to look

2288
02:11:56,880 --> 02:11:59,520
at that scripture a little more
closely, right?

2289
02:11:59,840 --> 02:12:04,840
It says when ye pray use not
vain repetitions and they make a

2290
02:12:04,840 --> 02:12:12,000
point that vain is that
descriptions or repetitions are

2291
02:12:12,000 --> 02:12:17,560
being described as the vain
thing or wait, not that it's

2292
02:12:20,600 --> 02:12:23,040
vayne is the adjective
describing repetitions.

2293
02:12:23,760 --> 02:12:24,480
Right.
Right.

2294
02:12:24,480 --> 02:12:29,440
So if it was just repetitions in
general, you know, it would be

2295
02:12:29,520 --> 02:12:34,080
used, used not repetitious
vanity or something, right?

2296
02:12:34,080 --> 02:12:35,880
It's, but it's, it's the other
way around.

2297
02:12:35,880 --> 02:12:37,600
Vayne is describing the
repetitions.

2298
02:12:37,600 --> 02:12:41,280
I mean, the issue here is, isn't
necessarily with the repetition,

2299
02:12:41,720 --> 02:12:45,880
it's with repetition and vanity.
And the vanity being seen before

2300
02:12:45,880 --> 02:12:47,280
all a bunch of people.
Right.

2301
02:12:47,400 --> 02:12:50,000
Seen before men.
And so you know, they go into

2302
02:12:50,000 --> 02:12:52,000
this and if you look at the
Greek, the strongest

2303
02:12:52,000 --> 02:12:55,080
concordance, it's like 945.
And I can't pronounce this, but

2304
02:12:55,080 --> 02:13:00,600
it's something like Battleogio.
And their definition is properly

2305
02:13:00,600 --> 02:13:04,800
to blubber nonsensical
repetitions, to chatter, to be

2306
02:13:04,800 --> 02:13:08,040
long winded, and to use empty
words.

2307
02:13:08,920 --> 02:13:14,280
Someone who's really flowery and
very maybe even flattering a

2308
02:13:14,280 --> 02:13:15,560
little bit.
Exactly.

2309
02:13:15,560 --> 02:13:20,880
Suddenly, you know, you ever you
ever been in the middle, you

2310
02:13:20,880 --> 02:13:22,600
know been in a prayer,
somebody's going and you just

2311
02:13:22,600 --> 02:13:24,480
keep going.
It's almost a sermon.

2312
02:13:24,720 --> 02:13:29,600
And going yeah, right.
It's like OK, I especially that

2313
02:13:29,600 --> 02:13:31,480
long winded description of.
This word.

2314
02:13:31,720 --> 02:13:36,480
It's like fascinating, but you
know from the Greek there's

2315
02:13:36,480 --> 02:13:40,520
nothing here that signifies
there anything, that the problem

2316
02:13:40,520 --> 02:13:44,640
isn't the repetition, the issue
is the vanity.

2317
02:13:45,360 --> 02:13:47,520
So you're having it because
let's look at Mormonism.

2318
02:13:47,760 --> 02:13:51,680
There are many prayers that are
repetitious, right?

2319
02:13:52,120 --> 02:13:54,720
Sacrament every week.
Baptism.

2320
02:13:54,720 --> 02:13:57,160
Baptism has to be prescribed the
same way.

2321
02:13:57,480 --> 02:14:01,440
The entire temple liturgy, as
far as I'm concerned, right,

2322
02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:04,120
right.
Has to be there Baptisms for the

2323
02:14:04,120 --> 02:14:07,040
dead.
There's a a order to this that's

2324
02:14:07,040 --> 02:14:09,000
repetitious every time you do
it.

2325
02:14:10,240 --> 02:14:15,960
Now, let me say this.
I once OK, horrible admission

2326
02:14:15,960 --> 02:14:20,200
time.
There was once a girl I was

2327
02:14:20,200 --> 02:14:25,960
super into and she she was
Catholic.

2328
02:14:27,440 --> 02:14:30,400
I may edit that part out so I
don't tip her out who it was,

2329
02:14:31,520 --> 02:14:34,240
But she's like, you should come
to church with me.

2330
02:14:34,280 --> 02:14:37,960
And I'm like, well, you're hot.
I'm totally down with the Pope,

2331
02:14:38,200 --> 02:14:45,600
so let's go.
And I went and I was listening.

2332
02:14:45,720 --> 02:14:48,920
It was in one of the classes.
It wasn't in the in the Mass.

2333
02:14:49,840 --> 02:14:56,560
But one of the things they had
said was your prayers should

2334
02:14:56,560 --> 02:15:00,640
almost act like a mantra to put
you into a state to where you're

2335
02:15:00,640 --> 02:15:04,720
kind of meditative.
Now what you just wrote, what

2336
02:15:04,720 --> 02:15:07,640
you just read I can totally get.
Right.

2337
02:15:07,840 --> 02:15:10,480
So this is the practice.
So they in the Orthodox Church,

2338
02:15:10,480 --> 02:15:14,080
they've got this thing called,
they call usually based off the

2339
02:15:14,080 --> 02:15:16,240
tradition, which, you know, the
Russians got their word for it,

2340
02:15:16,400 --> 02:15:18,240
the Greeks got their word, but
basically a prayer rope.

2341
02:15:19,120 --> 02:15:22,440
And it looks more like a
necklace here, but it's kind of

2342
02:15:22,440 --> 02:15:26,320
made of wool and there's these
little knots across it.

2343
02:15:26,320 --> 02:15:29,760
This one's got 30, but they've
got different, different sizes

2344
02:15:29,800 --> 02:15:34,840
and a standard is 100.
And the practice is basically

2345
02:15:34,920 --> 02:15:39,160
you repeat the Jesus prayer.
Until you complete the loop.

2346
02:15:39,240 --> 02:15:42,720
As you go across each link in
the loop.

2347
02:15:42,880 --> 02:15:48,520
See to me that that that almost
is a gateway to a meditative

2348
02:15:48,520 --> 02:15:49,640
state.
Exactly.

2349
02:15:49,640 --> 02:15:52,760
And that's the intent.
And as you're doing it, you know

2350
02:15:52,760 --> 02:15:55,360
that they'll make the sign of
the cross by the Orthodox

2351
02:15:55,360 --> 02:15:57,960
version, which is right, left,
not left, right.

2352
02:15:59,000 --> 02:16:03,840
But so I was thinking about
this, right.

2353
02:16:04,080 --> 02:16:06,480
And all of a sudden I just, this
thing hit me.

2354
02:16:06,480 --> 02:16:09,720
And this might be completely
anecdotal, but it's fascinating

2355
02:16:09,720 --> 02:16:12,320
nonetheless.
So, well, actually, maybe I

2356
02:16:12,320 --> 02:16:15,040
should explain first.
First, you're not supposed to do

2357
02:16:15,040 --> 02:16:16,920
this without guidance.
OK.

2358
02:16:17,320 --> 02:16:21,560
They they're concerned about
people taking this to an

2359
02:16:21,560 --> 02:16:22,960
extreme.
OK.

2360
02:16:23,800 --> 02:16:26,360
Going down a rabbit hole, so to
speak, right?

2361
02:16:26,720 --> 02:16:29,640
And so you're supposed to have
a, you know, your priest or

2362
02:16:29,640 --> 02:16:33,360
Bishop that's going to tell you
how many and how often, how much

2363
02:16:33,360 --> 02:16:38,959
time to spend doing that so you
don't end up, you know, making

2364
02:16:38,959 --> 02:16:41,120
an idol.
Out of prayer, the other.

2365
02:16:41,120 --> 02:16:44,920
Thing is, you know, they'll wear
these around their wrists and

2366
02:16:45,280 --> 02:16:47,760
you know, but they they'll be
hidden as well.

2367
02:16:47,920 --> 02:16:50,920
They're not many things.
This isn't an icon to show like

2368
02:16:50,920 --> 02:16:54,520
hey, I'm orthodox.
It's supposed to be used so that

2369
02:16:55,120 --> 02:16:58,799
while you're at work and nothing
else is going on or something,

2370
02:16:58,799 --> 02:17:03,559
you got a moment, you can kind
of slip it out and sit back and

2371
02:17:05,080 --> 02:17:08,480
and focus your thoughts on
Christ and your relationship

2372
02:17:08,480 --> 02:17:10,959
with Christ and go and have a
little meditation.

2373
02:17:11,840 --> 02:17:14,840
You know, on your lunch break
and you know, you got to close

2374
02:17:14,840 --> 02:17:16,280
your eyes, but maybe you're dry.
I don't know.

2375
02:17:16,799 --> 02:17:18,600
It's just you find
opportunities.

2376
02:17:18,600 --> 02:17:21,760
You wear it with you as a
reminder that when you have

2377
02:17:21,760 --> 02:17:26,280
opportunities you go through and
you focus on your prayer to be

2378
02:17:26,280 --> 02:17:28,520
praying always to.
Always.

2379
02:17:28,520 --> 02:17:32,520
Have a prayer in your heart.
Once you described wearing that,

2380
02:17:33,080 --> 02:17:34,680
it's got some echoes of the
garment.

2381
02:17:35,440 --> 02:17:36,879
Sure.
Right.

2382
02:17:36,879 --> 02:17:40,240
I mean, look, as Mormons, there
ain't no getting around that,

2383
02:17:40,680 --> 02:17:43,040
right?
I mean, you're going to see them

2384
02:17:43,040 --> 02:17:45,000
and you're going to be
constantly reminded.

2385
02:17:45,240 --> 02:17:49,799
Right.
So first of all, again, there is

2386
02:17:49,799 --> 02:17:51,879
they do recognize you can take
things to extremes.

2387
02:17:52,280 --> 02:17:54,799
And so they're they're very
careful about, you know, you

2388
02:17:54,799 --> 02:17:56,799
know, they don't recommend
people do this on their own.

2389
02:17:57,000 --> 02:18:01,400
They prohibit it, which I can
kind of understand.

2390
02:18:01,959 --> 02:18:03,320
You know, I'm not Orthodox,
though.

2391
02:18:03,320 --> 02:18:05,360
I thought I'm going to give it a
try.

2392
02:18:05,719 --> 02:18:08,879
Why not?
And I actually found it was

2393
02:18:08,879 --> 02:18:14,000
really fascinating the first
time I, I, I was doing it, you

2394
02:18:14,000 --> 02:18:18,879
know, your mind kind of tries to
wander and you have to pull it

2395
02:18:18,879 --> 02:18:21,320
back.
But as you pull it back, the

2396
02:18:21,320 --> 02:18:24,879
words you're saying, you know,
asking Christ to have mercy upon

2397
02:18:24,879 --> 02:18:31,840
you really starts sinking in.
And I start to feel it more

2398
02:18:31,840 --> 02:18:36,559
emotionally and even
intellectually at a, at a, at a

2399
02:18:36,559 --> 02:18:40,639
deeper level as I kind of
continue going through it.

2400
02:18:40,639 --> 02:18:43,680
And so I, I honestly don't think
it's necessarily a bad practice.

2401
02:18:43,680 --> 02:18:46,400
I'm not prescribing it to
anybody, but I'm saying it.

2402
02:18:46,480 --> 02:18:50,639
It was pretty interesting, sure.
And.

2403
02:18:50,760 --> 02:18:54,280
And look, I think, I think
Joseph gives us precedent here

2404
02:18:54,799 --> 02:18:57,680
for looking at some of these
things, right where he says, I,

2405
02:18:57,840 --> 02:19:00,760
I don't want anyone to abandon
any truth that they have.

2406
02:19:00,959 --> 02:19:05,480
I'm just saying bring your truth
and combine it with ours and

2407
02:19:06,080 --> 02:19:08,000
let's get closer.
Right.

2408
02:19:08,440 --> 02:19:11,120
Right.
And so certainly, you know, like

2409
02:19:11,120 --> 02:19:14,400
you were saying, I'm not saying
folks and I don't think you're

2410
02:19:14,400 --> 02:19:16,840
saying folks should run out and
get a prayer rope, right?

2411
02:19:17,080 --> 02:19:19,879
But maybe the principal maybe
behind it, maybe.

2412
02:19:20,200 --> 02:19:23,639
There's something you can.
Do is more in line, right with,

2413
02:19:23,920 --> 02:19:25,559
hey, maybe there's something I
should do?

2414
02:19:25,559 --> 02:19:28,879
Do I concentrate on my covenants
as much, right, Right.

2415
02:19:29,080 --> 02:19:34,840
Maybe instead of a prayer rope
and a prescribed prayer, maybe

2416
02:19:34,840 --> 02:19:37,600
what you do is find something
like your garment, right?

2417
02:19:37,600 --> 02:19:41,840
That might remind you of your
temple covenants, right?

2418
02:19:43,000 --> 02:19:45,879
And then contemplate on those.
Sure.

2419
02:19:46,080 --> 02:19:49,240
You know, one of the thoughts
that came to me personally was

2420
02:19:49,360 --> 02:19:54,040
rather than a strictly wrote
prayer, what if I just have a

2421
02:19:54,040 --> 02:19:57,400
prayer in the moment That's
significant, but I'm just going

2422
02:19:57,400 --> 02:20:00,880
to repeat it to really, really
focus on it.

2423
02:20:00,880 --> 02:20:04,560
What I found is when you keep
repeating it, you're increasing

2424
02:20:04,560 --> 02:20:05,880
your intent.
Yeah.

2425
02:20:06,560 --> 02:20:08,680
You're actually focusing your
intent.

2426
02:20:09,040 --> 02:20:10,920
Absolutely.
I mean, how many times have you

2427
02:20:10,920 --> 02:20:13,840
prayed and you get done with
your prayer and you don't even

2428
02:20:13,840 --> 02:20:18,000
remember what you said, right?
It happens to me quite a bit,

2429
02:20:18,200 --> 02:20:20,520
right?
Even more so, Even more so how

2430
02:20:20,520 --> 02:20:23,560
many times does somebody else
pray and they get done?

2431
02:20:23,760 --> 02:20:26,440
And the whole time you were
thinking about, you know, guy,

2432
02:20:26,440 --> 02:20:29,120
get the kids loaded in the car
or what are we going to do for

2433
02:20:29,120 --> 02:20:29,960
dinner?
And.

2434
02:20:30,440 --> 02:20:33,360
That's where my mind goes.
Like do I have steak at home?

2435
02:20:33,720 --> 02:20:35,840
Right.
That's that's typically where I

2436
02:20:35,840 --> 02:20:37,760
go.
And it's really hard to have

2437
02:20:37,760 --> 02:20:40,400
faith and intent when you're
really not focused.

2438
02:20:41,160 --> 02:20:44,920
And so you don't necessarily
need a prayer rope to focus, but

2439
02:20:45,040 --> 02:20:50,800
certainly I find repetition to a
certain amount can actually help

2440
02:20:50,840 --> 02:20:53,080
in that focus.
Well, and look, we're going to

2441
02:20:53,080 --> 02:20:56,080
struggle with different things
at different times, right?

2442
02:20:56,640 --> 02:21:03,760
And in doing that, in
understanding that there's times

2443
02:21:03,760 --> 02:21:05,880
that your prayers are going to
sound awfully familiar.

2444
02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:09,600
I mean, repetitious, right?
If I got someone in the

2445
02:21:09,600 --> 02:21:13,200
hospital, I don't know how many
times my prayer probably sounded

2446
02:21:13,400 --> 02:21:15,840
the exact same when one of my
kids was in the hospital.

2447
02:21:16,760 --> 02:21:19,160
God just helped me be strong
enough to help them get through

2448
02:21:19,160 --> 02:21:20,880
this.
Fix them, please, God.

2449
02:21:21,320 --> 02:21:24,440
I mean, it was pretty
repetitious.

2450
02:21:24,440 --> 02:21:27,280
It doesn't mean it was vain.
I mean, it was coming from a

2451
02:21:27,280 --> 02:21:32,480
place of primal fear and worry
and angst and I, I don't think

2452
02:21:32,480 --> 02:21:35,320
that's ever repetitious.
Well, if you really think about

2453
02:21:35,320 --> 02:21:39,080
it, too often the most desperate
prayers are repetitious because

2454
02:21:39,360 --> 02:21:40,800
you're in it.
You're in it.

2455
02:21:41,280 --> 02:21:44,640
Yeah, you're in the middle of
something and it needs to pass.

2456
02:21:44,760 --> 02:21:46,720
Yeah, and there's nothing else
to focus on.

2457
02:21:46,720 --> 02:21:47,920
There's nothing else to think
about.

2458
02:21:48,080 --> 02:21:50,520
Nope.
Well, look.

2459
02:21:51,720 --> 02:21:53,760
You need that connection with
God, You need it now, and

2460
02:21:53,760 --> 02:21:55,160
nothing else is going to
suffice.

2461
02:21:55,280 --> 02:21:59,360
I've often wondered.
We look at Joseph's prayer in

2462
02:21:59,360 --> 02:22:04,640
the Grove as a singular event.
I wonder just how many times he

2463
02:22:04,640 --> 02:22:07,880
actually prayed for guidance
before it showed up.

2464
02:22:07,880 --> 02:22:12,720
For sure, right?
I don't think that there's

2465
02:22:13,360 --> 02:22:15,560
anything wrong with repetitious
prayers.

2466
02:22:15,560 --> 02:22:17,600
It's the vanity.
It's the vanity.

2467
02:22:17,720 --> 02:22:19,200
That you need to worry about
could be seen.

2468
02:22:19,360 --> 02:22:20,800
Right could be seen doing it or
to.

2469
02:22:21,960 --> 02:22:25,040
Some or sometimes you just get
into the habit of this is just

2470
02:22:25,040 --> 02:22:27,560
what I do right?
And I think that can be as

2471
02:22:27,560 --> 02:22:29,960
equally as dangerous.
That's equally vain.

2472
02:22:30,040 --> 02:22:34,560
Yes, Yep.
And so I think the intent has to

2473
02:22:34,560 --> 02:22:39,040
be really explicit all.
Right, so check this out.

2474
02:22:39,040 --> 02:22:41,920
I'm going to, I'm not going to
comment on this explanation, but

2475
02:22:42,680 --> 02:22:48,040
so to put this practice, one way
you could describe this is, is

2476
02:22:48,040 --> 02:22:53,360
that you have a circle, you're
going to make a sign making

2477
02:22:53,360 --> 02:22:57,320
signs, and then there's going to
be a prayer and it's going to be

2478
02:22:57,320 --> 02:23:00,720
repeated around the circle.
Interesting.

2479
02:23:01,880 --> 02:23:04,080
Interesting.
Another echo, another.

2480
02:23:04,120 --> 02:23:06,280
Echo yeah, that's all I'm going
to say about that.

2481
02:23:06,320 --> 02:23:09,440
But yeah.
It's interesting, yeah.

2482
02:23:09,880 --> 02:23:14,640
Absolutely.
So, yeah, All in all, it was,

2483
02:23:14,720 --> 02:23:18,200
it's a fast and there's I, I,
I'm sure there's a lot more to

2484
02:23:18,200 --> 02:23:21,520
be gleaned from an, a better
understanding of, of the

2485
02:23:21,520 --> 02:23:23,760
Orthodox faith.
And I'm going to continue to

2486
02:23:23,760 --> 02:23:25,600
explore this.
I hope other people might maybe

2487
02:23:25,600 --> 02:23:29,520
get inspired and maybe more
academic and qualified people to

2488
02:23:29,520 --> 02:23:33,320
jump, jump on to this and see if
we can't find more echoes and

2489
02:23:33,320 --> 02:23:39,040
truths and, and application.
And but going back to the

2490
02:23:39,040 --> 02:23:42,720
original question that I had
when that started me down this

2491
02:23:42,720 --> 02:23:46,680
whole rabbit hole was, you know,
what is wrong?

2492
02:23:47,000 --> 02:23:51,720
What, what what is it seems like
things are going wrong and why?

2493
02:23:51,760 --> 02:23:53,680
What do you what do you do about
it?

2494
02:23:53,680 --> 02:23:56,600
You know, on the one hand,
you've got incredibly

2495
02:23:56,600 --> 02:24:02,440
authoritative perspectives of
Mormonism where there's there's

2496
02:24:02,440 --> 02:24:05,840
no agency to grow, no
opportunity to receive the

2497
02:24:05,840 --> 02:24:08,040
fullness.
On the other hand, you've got

2498
02:24:08,880 --> 02:24:11,320
versions that are just off the
wall.

2499
02:24:11,320 --> 02:24:12,920
And it's a new theology every
day.

2500
02:24:12,920 --> 02:24:16,280
And, you know, we're starting to
Add all kinds of insanity, like,

2501
02:24:16,440 --> 02:24:21,120
like, like, you know, serpent
seed or reincarnation or just

2502
02:24:21,640 --> 02:24:25,760
all kinds of heresies.
And they're, and now these are,

2503
02:24:26,800 --> 02:24:28,960
you know, you got people that
are just adopting this and, and,

2504
02:24:28,960 --> 02:24:31,400
and melding it in.
And it's like, where is the

2505
02:24:32,400 --> 02:24:39,680
where is that whole trueness
that can last, that can be

2506
02:24:39,680 --> 02:24:41,320
prepared for Christ that's
coming?

2507
02:24:41,680 --> 02:24:46,320
Right.
And what I've, what I discovered

2508
02:24:47,080 --> 02:24:52,560
is an idea here.
And this is something that kind

2509
02:24:52,560 --> 02:24:55,400
of came to me, But you know, I,
I've studied, you know, US

2510
02:24:55,400 --> 02:24:57,720
Constitution, politics, things
like that quite a bit.

2511
02:24:57,840 --> 02:25:00,360
And the founding fathers were
no, were no idiots.

2512
02:25:00,360 --> 02:25:03,240
They didn't come up with our
form of government through just

2513
02:25:03,240 --> 02:25:05,080
luck.
Oh, they weren't just some crap

2514
02:25:05,080 --> 02:25:06,400
against the wall to see what
sticks.

2515
02:25:06,440 --> 02:25:09,400
No, no, they they studied
history, they studied

2516
02:25:09,400 --> 02:25:11,520
philosophy, they studied
economics.

2517
02:25:11,520 --> 02:25:15,840
They had a good an understanding
of what does not work for

2518
02:25:15,840 --> 02:25:17,800
government.
Who you thought they had spent

2519
02:25:17,800 --> 02:25:19,120
that much time on it?
That's weird.

2520
02:25:19,240 --> 02:25:21,160
Well, a lot of people on Twitter
these days.

2521
02:25:24,920 --> 02:25:28,320
Nice.
But that's not the case.

2522
02:25:28,400 --> 02:25:32,880
And so our form of government
was carefully crafted.

2523
02:25:33,960 --> 02:25:38,720
And it might not be perfect, but
the idea was to get as close as

2524
02:25:38,720 --> 02:25:40,720
they could.
And they knew what doesn't work.

2525
02:25:40,720 --> 02:25:43,480
They've looked at theocracy,
they looked at monarchy, they've

2526
02:25:43,480 --> 02:25:46,600
looked at aristocracy, they've
looked at all these different

2527
02:25:46,880 --> 02:25:49,160
ways you can have government
anarchy.

2528
02:25:50,080 --> 02:25:52,680
Democracy.
Democracy, They looked at all of

2529
02:25:52,680 --> 02:25:56,720
that and they're like, this
doesn't work, this doesn't work.

2530
02:25:56,720 --> 02:25:58,920
Why?
Because at the end of the day,

2531
02:25:59,320 --> 02:26:02,920
human nature exists.
We're all flawed.

2532
02:26:02,920 --> 02:26:06,360
We fell well with Adam's fall.
We're we're born into a world

2533
02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:09,280
where we, we're going to have
these natural inclinations to be

2534
02:26:09,280 --> 02:26:11,400
selfish, to be greedy, to take
advantage.

2535
02:26:11,400 --> 02:26:19,000
And, and unless we're all
angels, government can't fix

2536
02:26:19,000 --> 02:26:21,440
that problem, right?
There's no form of government

2537
02:26:21,440 --> 02:26:25,000
that can work, that can't be
abused, that can't be corrupted,

2538
02:26:25,320 --> 02:26:27,760
But they want to get as close as
they possibly could.

2539
02:26:28,400 --> 02:26:31,360
And in my studies of that, one
of the interesting things is

2540
02:26:31,360 --> 02:26:35,680
this, the reason for the
separation of powers, the reason

2541
02:26:35,680 --> 02:26:39,240
for that separation of powers is
because they, they understood

2542
02:26:39,240 --> 02:26:44,640
that man will fail.
This is, it's an assumption that

2543
02:26:44,640 --> 02:26:48,520
man will fail that, that you're
going to, you know what, you

2544
02:26:48,520 --> 02:26:52,360
might have a George Washington,
but you're also going to end up

2545
02:26:52,360 --> 02:26:54,480
with, I shouldn't say anything.
I don't want to offend anybody

2546
02:26:54,480 --> 02:26:57,240
but either.
A Karl Marx.

2547
02:26:57,640 --> 02:26:58,760
Yeah, sure.
There you go.

2548
02:26:59,040 --> 02:27:01,480
But you're gonna, you know, you
might end up with some Karl Marx

2549
02:27:01,480 --> 02:27:06,080
as well, right.
So they understanding that human

2550
02:27:06,080 --> 02:27:10,520
nature will corrupt and fail,
they came up with a system with

2551
02:27:10,520 --> 02:27:13,400
that assumption from the
beginning that this is going to

2552
02:27:13,400 --> 02:27:16,560
break Nan is going to abuse
power.

2553
02:27:16,960 --> 02:27:20,400
So how do we organize this in a
way so that that's that when

2554
02:27:20,400 --> 02:27:24,680
that happens, it can be caused
the least amount of damage.

2555
02:27:25,640 --> 02:27:28,680
They can't solve it.
Absolutely, it's impossible to

2556
02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:32,720
completely prevent this kind of
corruption, but they, they, they

2557
02:27:32,720 --> 02:27:35,600
wanted a system.
And the underlying assumption

2558
02:27:35,600 --> 02:27:43,520
is, is that things break.
Well, you know, my perspective

2559
02:27:43,520 --> 02:27:46,200
and I think a lot of people's
perspective and on religion,

2560
02:27:47,280 --> 02:27:51,080
Christianity from the beginning
and up until this day has been

2561
02:27:51,080 --> 02:27:58,600
focused on how do we create a
church that won't schism, what

2562
02:27:58,600 --> 02:28:03,800
kind of organization?
And you know, you got solutions

2563
02:28:03,800 --> 02:28:07,760
to that that become terrible,
horrible.

2564
02:28:08,720 --> 02:28:09,480
In.
History.

2565
02:28:11,640 --> 02:28:14,520
But hey, for friends, schism.
They can't schism if they're

2566
02:28:14,520 --> 02:28:15,680
dead.
Right.

2567
02:28:17,760 --> 02:28:21,080
Yeah, and then you've got lesser
forms of of, of of this kind of

2568
02:28:21,080 --> 02:28:24,160
tyranny.
We want freedom, but if we have

2569
02:28:24,160 --> 02:28:26,200
freedom, we're going to scatter
and schism.

2570
02:28:26,520 --> 02:28:30,840
And so this was the thing that I
kept pondering over, right?

2571
02:28:30,840 --> 02:28:32,880
How do you, how do you solve
these kinds of problems?

2572
02:28:32,880 --> 02:28:35,320
And I actually think we have a
potential answer.

2573
02:28:35,360 --> 02:28:37,880
And looking at the early
organization of the Orthodox

2574
02:28:37,880 --> 02:28:41,040
Church, which is this idea of
franchises.

2575
02:28:42,080 --> 02:28:45,280
And I think it's, it's, it's,
it's, it's an assumption that

2576
02:28:45,280 --> 02:28:47,800
there will be schism.
It's not a form that can't

2577
02:28:47,800 --> 02:28:49,840
handle schism.
It's not a form that's going to

2578
02:28:49,840 --> 02:28:53,320
prevent schism, because that
would take away free agency, but

2579
02:28:53,320 --> 02:28:57,000
it's a form where schism can be
allowed to happen.

2580
02:28:58,680 --> 02:29:01,120
In kind of a healthy way.
But in a healthy, in the most

2581
02:29:01,120 --> 02:29:03,360
healthy way that it can, right?
Right.

2582
02:29:03,360 --> 02:29:04,880
We see that with our states,
right?

2583
02:29:04,880 --> 02:29:07,320
Or that why are there 50 states?
Why were there?

2584
02:29:07,840 --> 02:29:09,960
Why?
So states could try on different

2585
02:29:09,960 --> 02:29:13,400
codes to see what works best.
Yeah, our, our government was

2586
02:29:13,560 --> 02:29:16,640
organized in schism, right, For
that intent.

2587
02:29:19,080 --> 02:29:22,640
And so rather than how do we
stop them from apostasizing, how

2588
02:29:22,640 --> 02:29:26,040
do we stop the splits, right.
If you're a fundamentalist group

2589
02:29:26,040 --> 02:29:27,560
and you know, how often do they
split?

2590
02:29:27,560 --> 02:29:30,800
That never happens, right?
No, no, that's never happened.

2591
02:29:31,040 --> 02:29:32,920
No.
We're we're a giant monolith.

2592
02:29:33,160 --> 02:29:35,480
You know, we, we preserve the
truth, right?

2593
02:29:35,480 --> 02:29:39,920
As a single unit, single hole
with with no descent and and

2594
02:29:39,920 --> 02:29:43,640
fragmentation.
No, you, you got a plan for it

2595
02:29:43,640 --> 02:29:45,880
though.
Yeah, that's that's what came to

2596
02:29:45,880 --> 02:29:46,960
me.
You got a plan for it.

2597
02:29:46,960 --> 02:29:50,840
And how do you organize so that
you can plan for it?

2598
02:29:50,840 --> 02:29:53,600
And I think, I think that
franchise model makes sense and

2599
02:29:53,880 --> 02:29:56,400
well, honestly, it's still
working for the Orthodox.

2600
02:29:56,440 --> 02:29:57,680
Well, here's what I'm going to
say.

2601
02:29:58,520 --> 02:30:01,560
If you look at the way the
Church was set up by Joseph

2602
02:30:01,560 --> 02:30:06,240
Smith, that was the model.
Yeah, I that's the other thing

2603
02:30:06,840 --> 02:30:08,240
that.
Was the model.

2604
02:30:08,240 --> 02:30:11,800
I believe that was the idea.
I I believe that the churches,

2605
02:30:11,800 --> 02:30:13,480
the Bishop.
Yeah.

2606
02:30:13,720 --> 02:30:17,160
Was intended to be, to a certain
degree, sovereign over that

2607
02:30:17,160 --> 02:30:19,640
church, right?
That church was independent,

2608
02:30:19,640 --> 02:30:21,800
local leadership.
And that's the other principle

2609
02:30:21,800 --> 02:30:24,800
we learned studying government.
What works?

2610
02:30:24,800 --> 02:30:27,880
The government that governs
closest to the people, right?

2611
02:30:28,400 --> 02:30:31,680
And how can you have that when
you have well, to a certain

2612
02:30:31,680 --> 02:30:33,440
degree, part of the issue is, is
one man is.

2613
02:30:34,000 --> 02:30:36,040
Yeah.
When you, when you've got an,

2614
02:30:36,120 --> 02:30:38,960
when you have a Pope, you cannot
have that.

2615
02:30:39,280 --> 02:30:41,160
Right.
But if you get rid of this idea

2616
02:30:41,160 --> 02:30:43,120
of a Pope and instead you have
patriarchs.

2617
02:30:43,720 --> 02:30:46,240
Right.
All of a sudden, you know, we

2618
02:30:46,240 --> 02:30:48,440
can kind of get along and we can
still be different.

2619
02:30:48,440 --> 02:30:51,320
We can still have schism and
hey, you know what?

2620
02:30:51,560 --> 02:30:53,720
You believe that doctor?
And I don't think so.

2621
02:30:53,720 --> 02:30:57,080
That seems crazy to me.
But we can still be friends.

2622
02:30:57,080 --> 02:30:59,800
I can still as long.
As it's not dangerous and it

2623
02:30:59,800 --> 02:31:01,880
doesn't degrade the faith,
right?

2624
02:31:02,280 --> 02:31:03,360
And that's the thing.
So what?

2625
02:31:03,360 --> 02:31:07,520
What is the commonality holding
together the Orthodox Church?

2626
02:31:08,000 --> 02:31:09,840
It's their sacraments.
Right.

2627
02:31:10,200 --> 02:31:11,280
It's their ordinances.
It's.

2628
02:31:11,800 --> 02:31:17,720
Their priesthood, yeah.
And and that, look, those would

2629
02:31:17,720 --> 02:31:20,320
be the things that would hold
Mormonism together, right?

2630
02:31:20,920 --> 02:31:25,120
Right.
Because with Mormonism, I feel

2631
02:31:25,120 --> 02:31:28,200
like we have a really good
defined end goal, right?

2632
02:31:28,200 --> 02:31:30,560
Yeah.
We have a very well defined

2633
02:31:31,320 --> 02:31:35,160
where we want to be.
What, what comes into play at

2634
02:31:35,160 --> 02:31:38,480
that point is the best way to
get there.

2635
02:31:39,520 --> 02:31:44,120
Now, obviously there's the
straight and narrow, the iron

2636
02:31:44,120 --> 02:31:46,560
rod, right?
That was in the Scripture for a

2637
02:31:46,560 --> 02:31:52,560
reason.
I think that it takes a lot of

2638
02:31:52,560 --> 02:31:56,280
prayer, a lot of revelation to
find out what that rod is

2639
02:31:56,280 --> 02:32:00,040
exactly.
Right with with that real quick

2640
02:32:00,760 --> 02:32:04,840
you know what life is messy.
My life is messy.

2641
02:32:05,040 --> 02:32:08,400
Your life is messy at least not
maybe maybe everybody listening

2642
02:32:08,400 --> 02:32:11,560
has got a different experience.
My experience life is messy to

2643
02:32:11,560 --> 02:32:16,200
get where I am today, I went
through all kinds of crap and it

2644
02:32:16,200 --> 02:32:20,760
wasn't always pretty, but it was
beautiful nonetheless, because

2645
02:32:20,760 --> 02:32:24,360
eventually it sort because of
that it sorted stuff out.

2646
02:32:25,400 --> 02:32:29,000
How do we expect to get to that
iron rod to a certain degree

2647
02:32:29,000 --> 02:32:30,640
without a certain amount of
messiness?

2648
02:32:31,240 --> 02:32:36,760
Well, yeah, yeah, no.
And, and look, I would love to

2649
02:32:36,760 --> 02:32:40,080
tell everybody, oh, just let's
all just gather in one place.

2650
02:32:41,360 --> 02:32:45,720
Problem is, good luck doing that
today without some judgments

2651
02:32:45,720 --> 02:32:47,200
first.
Sure, Right.

2652
02:32:47,960 --> 02:32:50,400
Does that mean we stopped trying
then?

2653
02:32:50,640 --> 02:32:53,600
No, I don't think so.
I think that franchise model

2654
02:32:53,640 --> 02:32:55,560
works really well.
Right.

2655
02:32:56,160 --> 02:32:59,920
And the beauty of that is that
you can still have certain

2656
02:32:59,920 --> 02:33:02,040
differences as long as it's not
going too far.

2657
02:33:02,040 --> 02:33:05,720
I mean like, so you know, do you
break the bread before you do

2658
02:33:05,720 --> 02:33:07,800
the sacrament prayer or do you
the sacrament prayer and then

2659
02:33:07,800 --> 02:33:09,280
break the bread does?
It matter.

2660
02:33:10,080 --> 02:33:12,600
Well, maybe it does, and maybe
somebody feels that it does,

2661
02:33:12,800 --> 02:33:14,320
right?
I think that's OK.

2662
02:33:14,840 --> 02:33:16,320
Yeah.
And somebody else can feel

2663
02:33:16,320 --> 02:33:19,280
differently, and that can be OK.
It doesn't invalidate the

2664
02:33:19,280 --> 02:33:22,720
ordinance, no.
Does the entire congregation

2665
02:33:22,720 --> 02:33:27,600
have to stand or kneel?
You know, I think I've got my

2666
02:33:27,600 --> 02:33:30,760
ideas on it, but what it is, it
completely invalidate the

2667
02:33:30,760 --> 02:33:32,240
ornaments.
I don't think it does.

2668
02:33:32,400 --> 02:33:34,280
I don't think it does 'cause I
think it, I think you probably

2669
02:33:34,280 --> 02:33:37,000
should kneel.
But nonetheless, when I was,

2670
02:33:37,080 --> 02:33:40,440
when I was in the LDS church, we
didn't kneel and sacrament still

2671
02:33:40,440 --> 02:33:43,640
worked.
So, you know, there might be

2672
02:33:43,920 --> 02:33:48,080
ideals, but if it's functional,
if it's still working, it'll

2673
02:33:48,080 --> 02:33:50,920
produce fruit.
And if it produces fruit, people

2674
02:33:50,920 --> 02:33:55,760
will gather to feed.
If it produces bad fruit, then

2675
02:33:55,920 --> 02:33:58,360
people are going to want to get
away from Warren Jeffs.

2676
02:33:58,600 --> 02:34:02,280
And look here, here's the thing,
as long as we don't allow it to

2677
02:34:02,280 --> 02:34:05,560
go to that level of tyranny that
we saw down in Colorado City,

2678
02:34:06,040 --> 02:34:08,280
people will vote with their
feet, right?

2679
02:34:08,720 --> 02:34:10,480
Right.
If something's not working for

2680
02:34:10,480 --> 02:34:12,440
people, they'll be like, you
know what?

2681
02:34:12,760 --> 02:34:15,840
They're not bad people, but this
ain't working for me.

2682
02:34:16,520 --> 02:34:18,000
And they'll go down the road
somewhere.

2683
02:34:18,320 --> 02:34:21,120
And it could be a matter of of,
of what you need for your

2684
02:34:21,120 --> 02:34:23,960
personal journey at that moment
in life.

2685
02:34:24,600 --> 02:34:27,240
You know, this group over here
there might be really

2686
02:34:27,240 --> 02:34:30,640
charismatic and really Lucy and
just kind of, you know,

2687
02:34:31,080 --> 02:34:32,480
disorganized.
This one might be super

2688
02:34:32,480 --> 02:34:34,880
structured and well, what one do
you need?

2689
02:34:34,880 --> 02:34:37,400
Depends who you are, which one's
right.

2690
02:34:37,880 --> 02:34:40,160
Well, it depends on what you
need in the moment potentially.

2691
02:34:40,640 --> 02:34:43,320
And there's nothing wrong with
either of those things

2692
02:34:43,320 --> 02:34:45,480
inherently by them in and of
itself.

2693
02:34:45,480 --> 02:34:49,560
I don't think as long as you're
not distorting the ordinances,

2694
02:34:49,560 --> 02:34:53,600
as long as you're not rewriting
scripture, as long as you're not

2695
02:34:53,600 --> 02:34:57,760
saying our guy's the only guy
and he gets to tell everybody

2696
02:34:57,760 --> 02:35:02,120
else what to do, then I think we
can actually all get along and

2697
02:35:02,120 --> 02:35:05,160
agree to disagree.
And that actually agreeing to

2698
02:35:05,160 --> 02:35:11,600
disagree might just even be the
key to to further lighten

2699
02:35:11,600 --> 02:35:13,200
knowledge.
I think you're right.

2700
02:35:13,240 --> 02:35:19,800
I think we read, read the
scripture that Zion is Zion

2701
02:35:19,800 --> 02:35:22,240
because it's people of one heart
and one mind.

2702
02:35:23,120 --> 02:35:29,680
Yeah, but that's not a real good
description of everything.

2703
02:35:30,560 --> 02:35:35,760
But is it of one family culture?
That's why I'm saying it's not a

2704
02:35:35,760 --> 02:35:38,840
real good description of
everything, right?

2705
02:35:40,240 --> 02:35:43,360
Are we of one heart and one mind
when we all have the same goal

2706
02:35:43,360 --> 02:35:47,120
in mind?
Yeah, yeah, I would say so.

2707
02:35:47,840 --> 02:35:50,560
Are we of one heart and one mind
when we all agree that these

2708
02:35:50,560 --> 02:35:53,360
ordinances shouldn't be tampered
with and they should remain as

2709
02:35:53,360 --> 02:35:56,760
pure as possible?
Yeah, I think we're of one heart

2710
02:35:56,760 --> 02:36:01,560
and one mind on that, right.
Now, where do I find a litmus

2711
02:36:01,560 --> 02:36:07,600
test on how far that goes,
right, And how much room is left

2712
02:36:07,600 --> 02:36:17,240
for dissent if you have one guy
who dictates what it is?

2713
02:36:17,400 --> 02:36:20,280
I get a little nervous, right?
I get a little twitchy.

2714
02:36:22,120 --> 02:36:25,360
And, you know, I was just
thinking, as you were were

2715
02:36:25,360 --> 02:36:29,920
saying that talking about this,
you know, maybe there's times

2716
02:36:29,920 --> 02:36:34,440
when a representative from each
council of those churches come

2717
02:36:34,440 --> 02:36:38,440
together, right?
And, and have the opportunity to

2718
02:36:38,440 --> 02:36:40,880
hash some of those things out,
right?

2719
02:36:40,880 --> 02:36:43,840
And maybe it does leave with,
we're going to agree to disagree

2720
02:36:43,840 --> 02:36:46,400
on this, right?
Or maybe hearts and minds are

2721
02:36:46,400 --> 02:36:48,920
changed somewhere, right?
And so.

2722
02:36:49,360 --> 02:36:52,320
And it can be, hey, we tried
this and it didn't work, right.

2723
02:36:52,520 --> 02:36:53,880
Oh well, we were thinking of
doing that.

2724
02:36:53,880 --> 02:36:57,040
Thanks for sharing.
We'll that maybe we won't then,

2725
02:36:57,200 --> 02:36:58,760
right?
Working together.

2726
02:36:58,880 --> 02:37:03,120
Yeah, yeah.
Coming together to me, the, the,

2727
02:37:03,400 --> 02:37:06,280
the organization of the Orthodox
Church is beautiful and I think

2728
02:37:06,280 --> 02:37:09,200
it's the vision that Joseph
Smith had in mind and it's a

2729
02:37:09,200 --> 02:37:11,640
vision that unfortunately got
lost.

2730
02:37:12,160 --> 02:37:15,440
And as fundamentalist, it's not
something that we have ever

2731
02:37:15,440 --> 02:37:20,400
really recovered or retained.
But I you're always, there's

2732
02:37:20,400 --> 02:37:23,240
always going to be differences,
but I think it would be a really

2733
02:37:23,240 --> 02:37:27,160
beautiful thing if you know,
somebody from the Kingston's can

2734
02:37:27,160 --> 02:37:32,080
go and, you know, go to the AUB
and, and participate in oranges

2735
02:37:32,080 --> 02:37:35,200
there and be recognized and
respected and vice versa.

2736
02:37:35,240 --> 02:37:38,160
And with all the different
groups that there's a certain

2737
02:37:38,160 --> 02:37:39,840
level of, Hey, we're all in this
together.

2738
02:37:39,840 --> 02:37:43,200
We all have the same ultimate
objective.

2739
02:37:44,160 --> 02:37:48,520
We all believe in the value of
the things that get us there And

2740
02:37:49,280 --> 02:37:52,800
and hey, you know, you can
maintain your sovereignty, but

2741
02:37:52,800 --> 02:37:56,320
let's just respect and recognize
each other.

2742
02:37:57,600 --> 02:38:00,320
And our current common
ordinances, yeah, yeah.

2743
02:38:00,840 --> 02:38:04,600
On the basis of our common
ordinances and our Common Core

2744
02:38:05,000 --> 02:38:07,000
theology.
Yeah, absolutely.

2745
02:38:07,040 --> 02:38:09,880
And you know, the FLDS can try
something, come back, say, hey,

2746
02:38:09,880 --> 02:38:11,760
yeah, we tried placement.
Marriage didn't work.

2747
02:38:12,080 --> 02:38:12,920
Didn't work.
Don't do that.

2748
02:38:12,920 --> 02:38:15,520
OK great, good to know they
tried it out, not me.

2749
02:38:15,760 --> 02:38:18,400
Right, exactly.
But now let's all come together

2750
02:38:18,400 --> 02:38:19,760
and decide that hey, you know
what?

2751
02:38:19,760 --> 02:38:23,000
This is something that we
probably don't want to do in our

2752
02:38:23,000 --> 02:38:24,640
churches.
Have the leaders of those

2753
02:38:24,680 --> 02:38:27,280
churches come together and we
can have other churches.

2754
02:38:27,280 --> 02:38:29,600
New churches can spring up.
Fundamentalism doesn't have to

2755
02:38:29,600 --> 02:38:34,240
be a this group or that group,
and splits can happen and they

2756
02:38:34,240 --> 02:38:36,080
can still be respectful and
recognize things.

2757
02:38:36,080 --> 02:38:39,000
And if things get really bad,
you know, there's still always

2758
02:38:39,000 --> 02:38:41,760
schism.
Well, if necessary.

2759
02:38:42,920 --> 02:38:45,840
I suppose if it ever got really
bad and my definition of really

2760
02:38:45,840 --> 02:38:48,480
bad is Warren Jeffs 2 point O
right, right.

2761
02:38:48,480 --> 02:38:53,880
My hope at that point would be
that there would be enough of a

2762
02:38:53,880 --> 02:38:57,160
council mentality that the rest
of the council would come

2763
02:38:57,160 --> 02:38:59,800
together and be like we got to
go help out those people.

2764
02:39:00,200 --> 02:39:01,640
Right.
And the people are going to want

2765
02:39:01,640 --> 02:39:02,840
to look for.
That's the other thing.

2766
02:39:02,840 --> 02:39:06,320
If a system like this is in
place, the people are a lot more

2767
02:39:06,400 --> 02:39:08,880
are a lot more aware that they
can vote with their feet.

2768
02:39:09,080 --> 02:39:11,080
If you're in a word like I don't
like what's going on.

2769
02:39:11,080 --> 02:39:14,560
This seems wrong.
And even though I like the

2770
02:39:14,560 --> 02:39:17,960
people in the culture, it's
getting spooky.

2771
02:39:17,960 --> 02:39:20,440
It's getting spooky.
I'm going to go fellowship with

2772
02:39:20,440 --> 02:39:21,720
the other group.
Right.

2773
02:39:22,720 --> 02:39:25,600
Even though I don't like people
as much with the culture, but

2774
02:39:25,600 --> 02:39:28,480
it's not as spooky.
Things like that will resolve

2775
02:39:28,480 --> 02:39:30,840
themselves and it's going to
hold leaders even more

2776
02:39:30,840 --> 02:39:35,800
accountable because their
congregations sort of speak, can

2777
02:39:35,800 --> 02:39:37,680
go with their feet.
They have their agency again.

2778
02:39:38,320 --> 02:39:40,720
We've tried the pyramid model,
right?

2779
02:39:40,840 --> 02:39:42,160
And it doesn't work.
It doesn't work.

2780
02:39:42,160 --> 02:39:44,800
We know that doesn't work.
It it's not working for the LDS

2781
02:39:44,800 --> 02:39:46,600
church always schisms it.
Always.

2782
02:39:46,600 --> 02:39:50,680
Splits and it's bad.
It's because it's all based on

2783
02:39:50,680 --> 02:39:57,400
cult of personality, right?
And yeah, it hasn't worked

2784
02:39:57,400 --> 02:40:01,200
before successfully.
It's always ended up in some

2785
02:40:01,200 --> 02:40:02,880
sort of disaster.
And I think it's going to

2786
02:40:02,880 --> 02:40:07,040
continue to do that until we
recognize that Joseph was on to

2787
02:40:07,040 --> 02:40:10,800
something when he started
talking about councils and we

2788
02:40:10,800 --> 02:40:15,680
got to get back to that.
Yeah, So I don't know, maybe

2789
02:40:15,680 --> 02:40:17,960
it's just a vision.
I I don't think I'm naive

2790
02:40:17,960 --> 02:40:23,200
because I realized that I don't
know how realistic this is given

2791
02:40:23,200 --> 02:40:25,480
the different groups and the
relationships and even with the

2792
02:40:25,480 --> 02:40:27,760
LDS Church.
I mean, even though that might

2793
02:40:27,760 --> 02:40:32,160
be the great schism as
fundamentalist in Mormons,

2794
02:40:32,400 --> 02:40:38,080
nonetheless, I mean, certainly
as a fundamentalist, I don't, I

2795
02:40:38,080 --> 02:40:39,960
don't discount that they have
priesthood, right.

2796
02:40:40,080 --> 02:40:44,400
Like I, I don't have any issues.
I would have no problems, you

2797
02:40:44,400 --> 02:40:49,080
know, participating in a, in a,
in a priesthood blessing with

2798
02:40:49,280 --> 02:40:53,320
people in the LDS Church.
And you know, I don't know if

2799
02:40:53,320 --> 02:40:56,800
that go would go the other
direction, but if we can get to

2800
02:40:56,800 --> 02:41:01,200
that kind of a place.
Look, and just because in the

2801
02:41:01,200 --> 02:41:05,920
past schisms has happened that
were irreconcilable doesn't mean

2802
02:41:05,920 --> 02:41:07,360
they have to stay that way,
right?

2803
02:41:08,120 --> 02:41:12,720
They're, they're look as
believers in an atonement that

2804
02:41:12,720 --> 02:41:15,280
works on the, on the micro and
the macro.

2805
02:41:16,640 --> 02:41:21,960
And I think we we owe it to this
work to be open to that.

2806
02:41:22,480 --> 02:41:26,720
And have faith, yeah, that
atonement at one can happen with

2807
02:41:26,720 --> 02:41:27,760
the.
Church as well.

2808
02:41:27,760 --> 02:41:29,320
Yep, absolutely.
And.

2809
02:41:32,600 --> 02:41:35,680
Just one last thing on the on
the beauty of this kind of a

2810
02:41:35,680 --> 02:41:40,440
model in my mind is, and this is
a little bit different because

2811
02:41:40,440 --> 02:41:43,640
of this great schism, but you
know, the Orthodox Church is not

2812
02:41:43,640 --> 02:41:45,680
big on proselyting.
Right.

2813
02:41:46,480 --> 02:41:49,440
Whereas the Catholic Church does
a lot better job at bringing in

2814
02:41:49,440 --> 02:41:52,200
new conforts, the Orthodox
attitude sounds.

2815
02:41:52,200 --> 02:41:53,160
Familiar.
Right.

2816
02:41:53,160 --> 02:41:55,240
Doesn't this sound familiar?
Sounds familiar.

2817
02:41:55,240 --> 02:41:57,960
The attitude in the Orthodox
Church is kind of like, you

2818
02:41:57,960 --> 02:42:00,880
know, if, if they're prepared,
they'll find us.

2819
02:42:05,120 --> 02:42:06,800
You like it's like you're not
wrong.

2820
02:42:06,800 --> 02:42:08,400
But I don't think that's the
whole story.

2821
02:42:08,800 --> 02:42:15,600
Yeah, but, but so, but, you
know, there can be value even in

2822
02:42:16,040 --> 02:42:18,080
a church that says, hey, you
know, this is what we're, this

2823
02:42:18,080 --> 02:42:20,160
is what we're emphasizing.
This is what we focus on.

2824
02:42:20,600 --> 02:42:23,320
And other churches.
I mean, if we think of the

2825
02:42:23,320 --> 02:42:27,480
church as the body of Christ,
well, what does a body have?

2826
02:42:28,320 --> 02:42:30,680
Parts?
It's got hands, it's got feet,

2827
02:42:30,920 --> 02:42:34,480
it's got elbows, it's got ears
and noses and mouths and eyes

2828
02:42:34,480 --> 02:42:36,240
and all kinds of stuff like
that, right.

2829
02:42:37,920 --> 02:42:44,960
It almost seems like ideally a
perfect Christ Church would have

2830
02:42:44,960 --> 02:42:48,000
that individuality across the
different congregations.

2831
02:42:48,080 --> 02:42:52,040
Right, right.
One that's more missionary

2832
02:42:52,040 --> 02:42:54,360
oriented, one that's more temple
oriented.

2833
02:42:54,360 --> 02:42:56,520
Or however it is.
Right.

2834
02:42:57,440 --> 02:42:59,360
Yeah.
Those are my thoughts on it.

2835
02:42:59,400 --> 02:43:03,720
Dude, that's good stuff.
Well, man, that was awesome.

2836
02:43:04,280 --> 02:43:08,280
So I guess, you know, and, and
this is what I want to drive

2837
02:43:08,280 --> 02:43:11,560
home to folks, right?
Because inevitably there's going

2838
02:43:11,560 --> 02:43:14,560
to be someone who's going to
point and say heresy, right?

2839
02:43:16,120 --> 02:43:18,800
These are just thoughts, right?
There's nothing wrong with

2840
02:43:18,800 --> 02:43:23,000
exploring ideas, right?
No one's saying here that this

2841
02:43:23,000 --> 02:43:25,400
is the way it has to be or the
way it's going to be.

2842
02:43:25,880 --> 02:43:28,680
They're just thoughts.
And if you don't ever think

2843
02:43:28,680 --> 02:43:31,440
outside the box a little bit,
you're going to stay in the box

2844
02:43:31,440 --> 02:43:33,960
we're in.
And right now that box I don't

2845
02:43:33,960 --> 02:43:35,920
think is.
It's not very comfortable.

2846
02:43:35,960 --> 02:43:37,600
It's not working for a ton of
people.

2847
02:43:37,960 --> 02:43:40,920
Got some sharp edges?
We, we see some folks doing some

2848
02:43:40,920 --> 02:43:43,280
really great things and we see
some other folks doing some

2849
02:43:43,280 --> 02:43:47,280
really crappy things.
And I think we, we have to be

2850
02:43:47,280 --> 02:43:52,040
willing to entertain ideas to,
to get to the bottom of this and

2851
02:43:52,040 --> 02:43:54,880
ultimately establish that one
heart and one mind that Joseph

2852
02:43:54,880 --> 02:43:58,520
talked about.
But dude, good stuff.

2853
02:44:00,480 --> 02:44:02,280
Thanks for coming on Anytime,
Dave.

2854
02:44:02,280 --> 02:44:03,640
All right, ma'am, we'll talk to
you later.

2855
02:44:03,640 --> 02:44:34,840
All right.
The.