Episode #147: The Real Reasons For The Persecutions Of The Mormons Past & Present W/Randall Edwards

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OK, before we get started here,
I want you to share this episode

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with everybody you can, because
I think this one's going to be

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super important.
A couple of weeks ago, something

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came to my attention that I
thought deserved to have a

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spotlight shine on it.
A family who lives in the United

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States told me about a sheriff's
deputy who had made a post on

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social media where they
basically equated all people

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practicing plural marriage to
every type of sexual predator

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you could imagine.
Well, as I'm apartment to do, I

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reached out to someone way
smarter than myself.

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Today on the podcast I have
Randall Edwards on to talk about

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this.
Not only do we dive into what

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happened to this family, but we
also dive into the legal history

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of how we got here as a people.
During this conversation, there

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are some interesting things that
come to light that give some

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very interesting insights on to
the true motivations of those

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who persecuted those early
Latter Day Saints and some

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perspective on what that means
for us today.

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That's next on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade Podcast.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Randall, how's it going?
I am great, how are you?

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Good dude.
I got to tell you, I was

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thinking about this just, you
know, probably 1/2 hour before I

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jumped on here.
It's weird how this worked,

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right?
Because like you reached out to

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me like 2 weeks ago and then
like a week later I'm like, hey

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man, you want to go to war?
And like.

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Here we are, right?
It is nuts.

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Like every time I think that you
know, the Lord is out of

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surprises for me, he, he gently
reminds me, no, no, no, you're

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just getting started.
But man, I, I sure appreciate

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you coming on.
Sure.

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Let me give you a little bit of
background on me so that your

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listeners, who are you talking
to?

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My name is Randall Edwards.
I'm a lawyer.

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I've been practicing law for
over 40 years now.

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Grew up in central UT, good old
Richfield, UT. 5th generation

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Mormon.
Grew up Mormon, went on a

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mission in in Brazil and went to
BYU reluctantly.

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Wasn't that crazy about going to
BYU but I had a great time

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there.
In fact, I ran for student body

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vice president as a joke and we
won and immediately resigned.

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That was just fun.
I, I, I went to, well, I, I got

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the thing I needed at BYUI, got
a wife.

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So I immediately needed an
education.

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So I went to the University of
Utah law school and left there,

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went to work in the Nevada
Supreme Court for a year and

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then I bounced between Nevada
and Utah.

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I've been in solo private
practice now for about 20 years.

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Before that, I worked for
different government agencies

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and for a couple of law firms.
And among the things that I have

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done is a lot of religious
rights kind of stuff.

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And when you go to law school,
you talk about constitutional

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rights and it seems like it's so
exciting.

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And you know, you think I'm,
I'm, it's going to be great.

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I'm going to learn about the
Constitution, but you hardly

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ever use it in real life unless
you were a criminal defense

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lawyer.
And the only thing you use there

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are, you know, 4th Amendment,
5th Amendment, 6th Amendment.

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But when I, I, I was doing some
work and I got a call from this

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fundamentalist school in rural
Nevada.

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And what had happened is they
were out in the middle of

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nowhere and they were attached
to a, an evangelical.

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When I say fundamentalist, I
mean fundamentalist Christian.

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They were evangelicals and they
had a, a school that was

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attached to them.
And Elko County had come to them

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and said, you have got to bus
your kids all the way into Elko

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and all the way back every day,
which was an hour each way.

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Because, you know, we don't
think that you've come up to

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snuff as far as all of the
curriculum that you need.

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So they called me up and said,
do we have to do that?

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And usually when I look at
something like that, I try to

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figure out is there something
else behind it?

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Because I went over there and I
looked at their curriculum and

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it was all Bible based.
I mean, it was the whole program

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that had been put together by
this group of evangelical

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Christians who had these schools
all over.

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And as it turns out, yeah, there
was a federal grant that was

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involved.
And if they didn't have a

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certain number of schools
children in the district, they

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weren't going to get all the
grant money.

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So they wanted to bring these
kids in.

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And that started me down the
road of doing some religious

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rights stuff.
And it was very interesting.

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I had, as soon as word got out
that, you know, here's a lawyer

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who does some some religious
rights cases, I started getting

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them from all over Nevada and
all over the Western United

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States.
I started the Nevada Christian

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Education Association.
It was fun.

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We had a big meeting at this big
Baptist Church.

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And I remember they listened to
me and I got up and talked

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about, you know, all of the
religious rights kind of things

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and things that we need to be
looking for.

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And, you know, you've got to
make sure that your curriculum

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is good and that kind of thing.
And afterwards, we're having

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lunch and one of these pastors
comes up and you could tell this

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guy was from the buckle of the
Bible Belt.

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He says, Brother Edwards.
Now, I thought it was a great

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thing that he's called me
brother.

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Yeah, I think.
It's familiar, doesn't it?

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Yeah, he says.
I'm standing here in Mormon.

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I said, yeah, that's that's
true.

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And I understand that reading
you got here is because the ACLU

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sent you.
Is that right?

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I said, well, I, I've done some
work for the American Civil

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Liberties Union.
So I've, I've got two strikes

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against me already.
You know, I'm working for

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liberal, I tell you, and I'm a
Mormon.

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He looks at me and he goes, you
know, I've been listening to

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you.
And sometimes I, I listen to

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you.
And I think there's a chance you

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might be saved.
I'm feeling better about that

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so.
So word got out.

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I've done, I've done some, some
religious rights stuff.

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I have represented a lot of
fundamentalist Mormons in

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various areas.
I've in fact, I represented 1

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fundamentalist Mormon, I guess
another fundamentalist Mormon

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that had to do with the property
dispute.

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And that was an interesting
story.

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A lot of situations in which
somebody is discriminated

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against because of their
religion.

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Because I practice in in Utah.
Well, I also practice in Nevada

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and California and Arizona,
that's where I'm licensed.

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I mean, that's kind of where
you're going to find the a core

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group of fundamentalist Mormons
and the fundamentalist Mormons

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who are there in the middle of,
you know, your mainline LDS are

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going to end up on the wrong
side of some discriminatory kind

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of things.
It's very interesting.

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And so I don't know, it's
probably 15 years ago when there

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was the big raid on the FLDS
found in Texas.

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And I was contacted by the
American Bar Association, which

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is a big group of of lawyers.
I mean, it's a national

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organization and they have
newsletters that they send out.

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They have different sections,
and one of them was the state

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and local law section.
And the reason that they called

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me was because my boss was a
member of it, that my former

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boss who'd been the city
attorney in in Reno, NV.

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And they said, well, I
understand you're a Mormon.

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I understand you know something
about polygamy and I understand,

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you know something about
religion.

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Can you write something for us?
And so I did a little bit of

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research and found that the
history of the LDS Church, the

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early history and the way that
it had progressed at least up to

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that point was really intriguing
because there were a lot of real

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interesting principles.
There were religion principles,

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family issues.
And of course, most issues that

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have to do with religious
controversies are usually about

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human sexuality.
You, you can find out right now.

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I mean, you have big splits in
different Protestant

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denominations over whether
they're going to have a gay

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clergy or not or whether they're
going to allow, you know, any.

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I mean, you've got child abuse
issues in the Catholic Church.

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I mean, so that that was a big
issue.

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So I wrote this article about
polygamy.

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I called it polygamy, the relic
of barbarism that won't go away.

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And I started off by talking a
little bit about the 1953 Short

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Creek raid down in, well, it's
Hilldale in Colorado City.

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But then it was Short Creek.
And the the government of

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Arizona decided that they were
going to come in and break it up

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and they were going to stop all
these people from, you know, all

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of this.
You know, they got child brides

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and we're going to take the kids
away.

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And it was very reminiscent as
to what it was happening in

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Texas at that time.
And so as I have, I mean, that

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was 15 years ago.
Things have been very

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interesting in the interim.
And that's what I wanted to talk

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about tonight is, first of all,
how we got to where we are and

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then where we are because it is
fascinating.

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Now you'll find that there are a
lot of scholarly articles about

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Mormons and polygamy and
constitutional law.

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When you go to law school, there
is every, every law school has

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got a publication.
It's called the law review.

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And if you're the top percentage
of your law school, you write a

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scholarly article for the law
review.

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Well, in Utah, I mean, hot topic
is going to be polygamy.

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You know a lot going on in Utah.
There's polygamous all over

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Utah.
And there, you know, the, the

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question is, what do you do
about it and how do you do

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something about it?
And so there was a lot of law

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that came out of there.
Now we're also some of the

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principles that I'm going to
talk about are they are expanded

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beyond what Mormons are doing.
I mean, we've got issues of

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Muslims, for example, who are
now polygamists in the United

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States.
And you also have there's a kind

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of an interesting little
subculture among black

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evangelicals where the men, a
lot of them end up in jail.

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And so then you will have these
black women who are looking

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around and it's like, we've got
to have somebody to help us.

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And so some black evangelical
churches have said, well, let's

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go back to Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob, and let's use that as a

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model.
So that has been interesting.

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But most of the focus has always
been on Mormon polygamy because

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there is not only a religious
aspect and there's a sexual

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aspect and there's a
constitutional lie aspect, but

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it's, it's good copy.
Sure, you're going to find there

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are a lot of scholarly books out
there.

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I just, I mean, there's, there's
one that was written by one of

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my law professors, Ed Firmage, A
Legal history of the Church of

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Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints from 1830 to 1900, called

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Zion in the Courts.
There's another one that I just

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picked up just a little while
ago.

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It's called the Mormon question,
Polygamy and Constitutional

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conflict in 19th Century
America.

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And that brings us up to, well,
probably about 1900 and anybody

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who's listening to your podcast
will know that the transition

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from polygamy to monogamy, which
was not easy, came about in

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large part as a result of a lot
of legal stuff that the church

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was involved in.
Right.

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And so if you don't mind, I'll
just, I'll kind of go through

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kind of what the history is and
then where we are today.

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My guess is that a lot of your
listeners, especially who are

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fundamentalists, are thinking of
themselves.

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Well, do I need to be looking
over my shoulder?

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Do I need to get, do I need to
be worried about getting busted

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for, you know, being in
violation of the law because of

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my my religious beliefs?
You know, am I going to get

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prosecuted for bigamy or for,
you know, something?

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And so let me just kind of dive
into where we are and how we got

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there and then where we are
today, because where we are

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today is in such an interesting
spot from a legal standpoint.

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Now I'm telling you so Randall,
before we we carry on too much

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farther, maybe towards the end,
I don't know.

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00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,160
I'll leave that up to you.
I do want to kind of go over

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what the impetus was for this
particular episode, 'cause I

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feel like it's super important,
right?

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I didn't just pick this topic
out of a vacuum, you know what I

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00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:16,960
mean?
Well, we might want to just

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start there because this is a
real life situation that we've.

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Got so there's a family that
lives here in the states in a

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00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,640
county, again, being super
vague, who basically had a

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00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,520
sheriff's deputy make a post on
Facebook where she basically

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00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,680
equated anybody who was living
plural marriage to some really

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00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,800
horrible people, folks engaged
in pedophilia, that sort of

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00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,400
thing.
Some really nasty stuff was said

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00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,160
and then goes on to make a very
thinly veiled threat.

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00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,880
And and that's really the
impetus for why we're here.

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00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,840
And, and we're going to address
the realities of all these

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things.
But as Randall said, and I think

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00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,560
it's worthwhile, we need some
background, right?

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00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,840
We need some legal background on
how we're here and then and then

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go from there.
Let me tell you, when I first

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00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,800
talked to you about that, it was
like, wait a minute, I've read

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00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,120
about Babies County.
I mean, it was one of the sites

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00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,920
of the Mormon War in 1838.
I mean, there is a long history

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00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,400
of being mistreated by
government actors towards

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00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,360
Mormons that that really piqued
my curiosity.

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00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:31,400
And we'll talk a little bit
about what can be done, what

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00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,280
can't be done, what should be
done.

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00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,240
But in order for us to get
there, let me tell you where we

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started.
Sure.

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00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,560
I mean, I'm not going to start
with the, you know, the long

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00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,880
sordid history of polygamy under
common law in England.

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00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,440
But let's start just with Joseph
Smith because that's really kind

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00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:54,200
of where the big focus gets down
to the polygamy issue in the

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00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,360
United States was Joseph Smith.
It wasn't really a big issue

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00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,000
before.
And if anybody talked about

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00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,720
bigamy, it was usually a matter
of some guy who was married who

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00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,160
then hoodwinked a woman into
also marrying him, usually in a

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00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,600
different state.
He would have two wives, and

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00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,520
then eventually he'd get caught.
And that actually was the

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00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,240
situation with John C Bennett,
who we'll talk about a little

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00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,360
later.
But it was everything changed

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00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,520
with Joseph Smith.
And we have, you know, Joseph

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00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,880
Smith, obviously, you know, we
all know the story if you're on

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00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,920
this podcast.
I mean, you know, he goes into

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00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,440
the woods to pray.
He receives this vision.

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00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:36,920
He is translating the Book of
Mormon.

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00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,200
And we talk about the very first
reference to anything having to

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00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,280
do with plural marriage.
And frankly, I must tell you, I

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00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,400
have a bias.
I do not like the word polygamy

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00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,200
very much.
I prefer plural marriage if

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00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:51,800
we're talking about it within
the religious country.

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00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,120
Me too.
Yep.

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00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,600
Polygamy is a, it's a, it's a
different thing.

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00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,800
It's a it's a different concept
than plural marriage.

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00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,520
They are used interchangeably
even in the church.

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00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,800
And I should probably mention
for your listeners, I am an

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00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,839
active LDS member.
Like I said, I've represented a

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00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:12,800
bunch of fundamentalists.
I know where they're coming

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00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,319
from.
I understand where they are.

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00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:18,800
But I am I don't consider myself
to be either an independent

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00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,640
fundamentalist or a a member of
any group, but we all have the

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00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,000
same basic background.
As far.

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00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,160
As all of that is concerned, and
the facts are simply the facts.

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00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,320
They are what they are.
I mean, we have the first

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00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,640
instance of Joseph Smith
mentioning even anything about

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00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,240
plural marriage in the Book of
Mormon, which came out in 1830

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00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,520
or 1829, somewhere around in
there.

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00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:47,920
And we also have some indication
historically that Joseph Smith

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00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:53,560
was aware of at least the
concept of plural marriage early

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00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,360
on as well. 18301831, somewhere
around there.

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00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,200
And in fact, we find out that
later in the history of the

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00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:08,480
church, Joseph F Smith, who was
Joseph Smith's nephew in in Utah

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00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,760
at a funeral sermon, said when
Joseph Smith first received the

314
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:18,880
revelation in 1831 on plural
marriage, some of those women

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00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,160
that he was to be married to
were shown to him, some of whom

316
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:23,880
were not even members of the
church.

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00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,920
So we at least have the concept
that is rolling around in Joseph

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00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,840
Smith's head to those those
later witnesses.

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00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:38,840
And we also have a little later
on in 1831 where there's a

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00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,240
recollection from WW Phelps, who
was with Joseph Smith.

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00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,360
And there was an indication that
something having to do with with

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00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:52,440
plural marriage because Joseph
Smith said we need to go bring

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00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,160
in the Lamanites.
We're going to go on a mission

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00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,240
of the Lamanites and we're going
to marry these women.

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00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,880
And somebody said, well, wait a
minute, we're married.

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00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,000
How are we going to do that?
And Joseph Smith is reported to

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00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,320
have said in the same way that
Abraham, Isaac and and Jacob

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00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,160
did.
And so there was at least this

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00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,440
idea that there was going to be
plural marriage.

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00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:14,920
There wasn't plural marriage at
the time.

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00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:20,080
And of course, there is a some
history indicating that there

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00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,080
was a woman by the name of
Fannie Alger who was working for

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00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,560
Joseph Smith.
And Oliver Calgary later said

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00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,400
that he thought that it was just
an affair.

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00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,320
There were others such as Fannie
Alger's brother, who said no,

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00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,040
she was his first plural wife.
And this was in Kirtland.

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00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:42,120
OH, this is years before Joseph
Smith made polygamy, plural

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00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:45,600
marriage A, a doctrine of the
church.

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00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,640
But we have this indication.
So now we have this issue of,

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00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:52,840
first of all, what is the
church's position on plural

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00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,640
marriage?
And also what is the legal

342
00:19:54,640 --> 00:20:00,800
position on plural marriage?
Now, everything that I'm going

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00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,720
to talk about today is going to
be controversial.

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00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,280
There are a lot of sides to a
lot of these stories.

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00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,760
And what I can tell you is this
is the best of that I've got

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00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,280
based on what it is that I've
looked at the historical record.

347
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,040
You're going to have those who
are going to deny that Joseph

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00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,320
Smith ever was involved in
plural marriage.

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00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,360
You're going to have those who
are going to say that he started

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00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,120
plural marriage early, early,
early on, and that he never

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00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:27,840
really left him.
But the best that I can look at

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00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,720
just from the legal standpoint
and from the historical

353
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,200
standpoint is what I'm going to
talk about.

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00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,760
I'm also going to tell you that
some of your listeners may be

355
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,840
lawyers.
And So what it is that I'm going

356
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,880
to talk about is going to sound
pretty elementary to them.

357
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,760
And some of them are historians
and that's going to sound

358
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,520
elementary to them.
But for most people, they're

359
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,040
neither lawyers nor historians.
And so it isn't that I'm going

360
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,200
to dumb it down, but I'm kind of
trying to simplify it to a point

361
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,000
that you sort of understand what
was going on and how things

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00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,960
worked.
For example, Joseph Smith there

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00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,480
in Kirtland, OH, this is in the
1830s.

364
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,800
Eighteen 311832.
He moved out to Kirtland and

365
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,280
there were people who were being
baptized all the time and they

366
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,280
wanted to be married to each
other.

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00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:17,560
Well, in order to be a someone
who could marry somebody legally

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00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,440
in Ohio, I mean, to to officiate
in a marriage, they had to be

369
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,200
approved by the state and they
wouldn't do it for Joseph Smith.

370
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,200
He was this upstart who, you
know, had just started this,

371
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:34,480
this newfangled religion.
And the question was, do I go

372
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,480
ahead and do this or do I have
to have somebody else do it?

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00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,400
Do I have to send them to a
civil authority?

374
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,400
Joseph Smith just married them.
He just said, I'm authorized by

375
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,320
God to do this.
And the law of God is above the

376
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,640
law of man.
And if they don't like it, they

377
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,760
can lump it.
That was kind of the position

378
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,000
that he took.
And when we get into the issue

379
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,800
of plural marriage, that is the
position that was essentially

380
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,240
always taken by the brethren.
It was like we we know what the

381
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,040
law might say.
You know, we might be able to

382
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,280
appeal to the law.
They tried to appeal to the law

383
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,840
in several different fronts.
But the law of God always

384
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:18,040
trumped the law of the state.
And it's one of those first

385
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,320
instances of civil disobedience.
I mean, you found that even back

386
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,160
in those days, you had probably
the great initial hero of civil

387
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,240
disobedience in the United
States, Henry David Thoreau, who

388
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,680
paid taxes for some reason.
And they threw him in jail.

389
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:39,320
And his good friend Ralph Waldo
Emerson came to him and said,

390
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,640
Henry, what, what are you doing
in jail?

391
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,360
And he says, I'm, I'm not going
to pay these taxes.

392
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:48,560
And then he looked at Henry, at
the Emerson, and said, what are

393
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,240
you doing out of jail?
I mean, you need to be in here

394
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,560
with me.
I shouldn't be out there with

395
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,520
you.
Can, can I ask a question real

396
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,320
quick?
I don't mean to derail you, but

397
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:04,040
but I feel it's, it's kind of
pertinent at this time our most,

398
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:08,640
our, our most municipalities
requiring marriage, marriage

399
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,360
licenses.
Yes, yes, all right.

400
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,560
And so the, the, it's still a
marriage license kind of deal,

401
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,600
right?
Where where that is like state

402
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,640
sanctioning of your union
essentially is is what it boils

403
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,120
down to.
Where did the the idea of

404
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,560
marriage licenses start?
Well, that's an interesting

405
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:34,160
question and it, it kind of has
this very strange kind of

406
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,680
evolution in American law.
But it has been there almost

407
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,640
since the beginning.
I mean, almost since the, the

408
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,240
the pilgrims got here was that
we have to establish civil law

409
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,320
and in order for us to establish
some sort of civil law and

410
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,720
civilization, if you are going
to be married to each other,

411
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,520
there are certain
responsibilities that come with

412
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,560
that.
I mean the responsibility to

413
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,360
stay faithful and to raise
children, responsible for your

414
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:05,240
children and to have some method
whereby if you die, you have

415
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,920
succession.
So that you know, if you are

416
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,480
married and you die either with
or without a will, it's presumed

417
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,600
that that person to whom you are
legally married is going to take

418
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,000
the property and it's going to
be distributed to your children.

419
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,280
So the argument was, of course,
the state has an interest in

420
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,200
making sure that we know what's
going on so that it isn't just a

421
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:31,360
complete lunatic asylum when
something like that happens.

422
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,520
And that was that was really the
basis for it.

423
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,120
And so the idea of the state
being involved in a marriage, at

424
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,960
least to, to the point of
knowing who's getting married

425
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,960
and how they're getting married
and what happens, that was part

426
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,240
of of American law almost from
the beginning.

427
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,880
Now, what's also interesting
there is that almost all

428
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,400
marriages at the outset were
religious marriages.

429
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,280
So they were done.
And so there would be a registry

430
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,720
in the church, but it would also
be registered with the county.

431
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,000
And almost all of the, well,
there is no such thing as a

432
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,840
federal marriage registration.
Each state is in charge of its

433
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,880
own marriage situation.
We'll talk about how that has

434
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,400
been usurped by the federal
government in several instances.

435
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:23,000
Gay marriage, for example.
I mean, the US Supreme Court a

436
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,120
few years ago just said, we
don't care what you've got in

437
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:29,720
your in your state.
We're saying to gay marriage,

438
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,760
you have to do it.
I mean, it's sanctioned.

439
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,960
I'm going to jump forward a
little bit.

440
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:41,320
In about 1963 or four, there was
a interracial couple in

441
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,400
Virginia.
They were called, strangely

442
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,680
enough, the loving couple, the
Lovings.

443
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:53,080
He was a black man, white woman.
Miscegenation, a marriage

444
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,440
between a black man and a white
woman or vice versa, was

445
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,120
outlawed in Virginia.
And they just wanted, they just

446
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:01,520
loved each other.
They just want to get married to

447
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:02,960
each other.
And they took it all the way to

448
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,680
the Supreme Court.
And at that point, the court

449
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,480
said, we don't care what your
law is in Virginia.

450
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,240
Their civil right to be able to
be married to each other

451
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,160
outweighs any interest that the
state may have.

452
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:20,120
And so the question is, how much
interest does each state have in

453
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,640
marriage?
And even today, it differs.

454
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,600
Laws are different in different
states.

455
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:30,760
We'll talk about this in a
minute.

456
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,240
Adultery laws are different in
each different state as well.

457
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,320
There's some states in which
adultery is still a crime.

458
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,440
It's hard to believe in these in
this day and age.

459
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,160
And there are some in which it's
just like, you know, we've

460
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,680
written that off the books.
And there's some like Utah,

461
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,400
where it's like, it's still on
the books.

462
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,400
But I don't think there's been
an adultery prosecution probably

463
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,160
since, probably for 100 years,
probably not since.

464
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,240
But the point is that each state
was regulating it, and each

465
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,840
state was regulating who can
perform a marriage, and they

466
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,280
weren't going to let Joseph
Smith do it.

467
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,840
And he said, well, yeah, but I'm
a prophet and these people want

468
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,080
to get married and they want to
be married in my church.

469
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,680
And at that point, there was
also a question as to is the

470
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,480
church going to be recognized by
the state?

471
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,080
Now, that's also another issue
here is to what degree does the

472
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,040
state have an interest in your
religion?

473
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,120
First Amendment to the
Constitution, very first words

474
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,440
are we're not going to interfere
with the free exercise of

475
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,560
religion or the establishment of
religion.

476
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,400
That's the first thing.
It's after that that you've got,

477
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,280
you know, freedom of speech and
freedom of assembly and liberty

478
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,880
and all of those other things.
And so the question is just to

479
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,640
what degree does any state have
any interest in how you believe

480
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,720
and what you believe?
And that has always been a point

481
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,360
of contention between the
Mormons and the state, because

482
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:02,240
the Mormons were revolutionary.
They were revolutionary in what

483
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,880
they taught, but probably more
importantly, they were

484
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,360
revolutionary in the sense that
they were cohesive.

485
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,760
And as a result, they were a
political force.

486
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,280
Now, as I, when I look into any
kind of a law, any kind of rule,

487
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,440
I always ask the question,
what's really at stake here?

488
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,920
And we'll get into the Nauvoo
period in a minute, but does the

489
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,600
state, do they really care who
you get married to?

490
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:36,360
Or is it really a matter of
politics who's got the power?

491
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,720
Because if a group of Mormons
carry the power, maybe going

492
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,560
after them for polygamy, that's
just eyewash.

493
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,520
You're just going after them
that that's just what you're

494
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,520
saying out there.
But what you really want to do

495
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,000
is you really want to stop them
as a force.

496
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,520
You really want to
disincorporate them.

497
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:58,440
You want.
So we have the issue of

498
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,320
marriage.
You actually have a church

499
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,720
articles that are incorporated
on marriage and that becomes

500
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,640
part of the Doctrine Covenants
back then and it says we're

501
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,440
monogamous.
We believe that marriage is

502
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,840
between one man and one woman.
Now there's some question as to

503
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,080
whether Joseph Smith was behind
that or whether that was a

504
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,600
declaration that was made by
Oliver Calgary and just sort of

505
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,360
came about while Joseph Smith
was out of town.

506
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,560
But in any case, it made its way
into the Scriptures, and that is

507
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,600
something that later the
Reorganized Church, now known as

508
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,680
the Community of Christ, hung
their hat on and said Joseph

509
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,360
Smith was never polygamous.
See this was always in the

510
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,200
church articles.
Right.

511
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,000
We'll go a little further down
the board.

512
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,960
So we got this first plural
wife.

513
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,800
We're not sure whether it was a
plural wife or not.

514
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,480
Like I said, Oliver Calgary said
that it was adulterous and

515
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,240
ultimately that's what got
Oliver Calgary thrown out of the

516
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,440
church.
He made an accusation against

517
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,440
Joseph Smith and said you're an
adulterer.

518
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,120
And Joseph Smith said no, I was
never an adulterer.

519
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,800
I had another wife, but I wasn't
committing adultery because to

520
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,520
nobody, being an adulterer meant
you're a criminal.

521
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,160
Adultery was a crime in Ohio at
the time, right?

522
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,200
Think of me was a crime in Ohio
at the time.

523
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,160
Now, then we get into what is
the definition of bigamy?

524
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,520
And as I was looking things up
just today, the definition of of

525
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,840
bigamy is all over the map.
As I said, every single state

526
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:33,160
has its own Criminal Code.
And bigamy in some cases is I am

527
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,080
married and I purport to legally
marry somebody else.

528
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,280
That would be bigamy in Ohio,
for example.

529
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,720
So was he doing that?
Well, no, he wasn't out there

530
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:45,920
trying to get a marriage
license.

531
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,400
But then you kind of say, well,
then what is it?

532
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,440
If it's if it's not big of me
and it's not and it's not

533
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,400
adultery, what is it?
Well, to come back and say,

534
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,760
well, it was a she was my
spiritual wife.

535
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,680
There was no legal category
within which that could actually

536
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,440
fit.
So it was that issue.

537
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:09,760
In the end, what happens is the
word is that Emma found Joseph

538
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,040
and Fanny Alger out in the barn,
apparently in some compromising

539
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,720
position.
We don't know what that was, but

540
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,360
in the end, she throws her out
of the house, Fanny leaves,

541
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,360
leaves the church, marries
somebody else.

542
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,160
And when she's asked about it,
she said, I've nothing to say

543
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,400
about this.
That's between me and God and

544
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,560
Joseph Smith.
I'm not getting involved in

545
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:29,560
this.
Wow.

546
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:37,680
So we go a little further and we
have, of course, 2 centers of

547
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,720
the church.
One of them is in Kirtland and

548
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,000
one of them is in Missouri.
And the Saints are not having a

549
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,280
good time in Missouri.
They're having a rough, rough

550
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,120
time.
And we have this whole issue of

551
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,640
is plural marriage part of that?
There were certainly rumors of

552
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,200
plural marriage even back in in
Kirtland.

553
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,480
And granted, plural marriage was
something that was outside the

554
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,320
norm of mainline, any kind of
mainline Christian Church.

555
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,920
Then most people out on the
frontier were Protestants, not a

556
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,440
lot of Catholics, certainly not
very many Jews.

557
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,840
And it's funny, Joseph Smith at
one point said, I will defend

558
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,240
the right of any Muhammadan
Muslim.

559
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,800
I'll bet there wasn't a Muslim
within 500 square miles of any

560
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,840
place that Joseph Smith ever
was, right?

561
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,600
But nonetheless, it was like,
I'll defend their rights too.

562
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,760
But there were these rumors of
what was going on even out in

563
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,440
Missouri.
But was that the real issue?

564
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,200
The real issue?
Now, remember where we are,

565
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,600
We're in the 18, late, mid to
late 1830s.

566
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,280
What's the big issue out there
in Missouri?

567
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,880
Slavery.
And now you have this group of

568
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,840
people, most of them are
northerners.

569
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,320
Most of them believe that you've
got these.

570
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,120
This is the promised land, Adam
on diamond.

571
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,200
That's where Adam was.
And you're going to vote

572
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,760
together as a bloc.
Well, the slave owners in

573
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,320
Missouri didn't like that one
bit.

574
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,760
So how are we going to deal with
this?

575
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,960
We're going to come up with all
sorts of pretexts to go after

576
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,920
the Mormons.
But what it really gets down to

577
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,240
is we've got to get them out of
here because they're voting bloc

578
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,080
and they're going to hurt us,
right, That we burn them out.

579
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,640
We have Hans Mill, we have the
Mormon War, but ultimately we

580
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,160
have a governor who says you may
legally exterminate the Mormons,

581
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,440
you can get rid of them.
You kill them with impunity.

582
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,240
Yeah, it's scary.
And the thing that's even more

583
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,720
scary about it, where was one of
the hotbeds, Davies County,

584
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,520
Missouri.
Like I said, there's a long

585
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,280
history of anti Mormonism out
there.

586
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,560
And the kind of allegations
against the Mormons right now

587
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,200
are the kind of allegations that
were made back then intended to

588
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,280
inflamed people, intended to get
people worked up about these

589
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,560
Mormons.
They're here, they're outsiders,

590
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,960
they're troublemakers.
We need to get rid of them.

591
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,560
And ultimately, we've got Joseph
Smith, who's in the Liberty

592
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,480
Jail, which I think is the most.
The dungeon.

593
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,679
His name, Yeah.
Liberty Jail.

594
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,239
There's a contradiction in
terms.

595
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,199
And he escapes, by the way, you
know where, where he was headed

596
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,520
when he escaped.
They were taking him out of

597
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,960
Liberty Jail and sending him to
Davies County.

598
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:25,520
That's where he was supposed to
end up next in jail.

599
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,840
So.
And he actually pays off the

600
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:35,120
jailers and says, OK, look,
fellas, I don't have any money

601
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,320
on me, but I'll give you this
promissory note.

602
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:42,120
And if you'll just let us go
when we finally get settled, you

603
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,679
can come and get the money.
And they all got drunk.

604
00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:47,880
They all went to sleep.
They they escaped.

605
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,360
The crack up of this is that
sheriff shows up in Nabu a

606
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,000
couple of years later and says,
here's the note.

607
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,960
Where do I, when do I get paid?
And Joseph Smith paid him.

608
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,960
It's man of his word, man of his
word.

609
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,560
Good story.
Good on Joseph.

610
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,600
So it's in Nauvoo that because
Joseph is no longer on the run,

611
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:19,160
that's when he receives all of
the really interesting and all

612
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,800
the very unique doctrines of the
Restoration.

613
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,960
That's where he gets baptism for
the dead.

614
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,720
That's where temple ceremonies.
That's we'd already have some

615
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:32,000
indication of the three degrees
of glory.

616
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,320
That's where plural marriage
comes in.

617
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,880
That's where the idea of the
Council of 50 and a Kingdom of

618
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,280
God comes in.
It's where the 2nd anointing is

619
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,560
part of all of that.
All of those things are

620
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:50,080
associated with Nauvoo.
And at every given point in

621
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,840
Joseph Smith's history, you have
people who would join the church

622
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,400
and they would say, I'm willing
to go with you this far, but if

623
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,680
you go one step further, I'm
done.

624
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,560
I'm out of here, right?
And Joseph Smith said, you know,

625
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,880
there are people who will
they'll follow me anywhere, but

626
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,480
as soon as I introduce something
that's contrary to their their

627
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,560
traditions, they fly apart like
glass and they are the worst.

628
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,520
They are the worst enemies that
I have because, and you can

629
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,040
imagine what that is.
We trusted you.

630
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,800
We thought that we you were the
prophet.

631
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,440
The next thing you know, you're
telling us, you know, whatever

632
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,440
you're telling us that there is
a pre existence and there's this

633
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,760
weird thing where you're
baptizing people who or dead and

634
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,600
you can you can be married
again.

635
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,720
Well, when he started in with
plural marriage, it's very

636
00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:43,160
interesting.
One of his plural wives, a woman

637
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,480
by the name of Mary Elizabeth
Leitner.

638
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,440
She knew Joseph Smith from the
time that she was young.

639
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,960
She was actually living on the
Morley farm in Kirtland.

640
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,360
OH, she was a young woman.
And you've probably heard

641
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,880
several stories about her
because she shows up over and

642
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:01,880
over and over.
She's kind of like Forrest Gump.

643
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,880
She keeps showing up in all
these different places.

644
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,480
She's there.
She's a young girl.

645
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,280
And Isaac Morley, who is one of
the early converts, along with

646
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,840
Sidney Rigdon, has one copy of
the Book of Mormon, and she's

647
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,120
maybe eight or nine years old.
And she begs, can I just take

648
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,920
this book?
And I just want to read it.

649
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,160
And he says, yeah, but you have
to bring it back by tomorrow.

650
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,440
And, you know, you can look at
it.

651
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,240
Well, she comes back the next
day and Joseph is there and she

652
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,000
has hands the book back to Isaac
Morley.

653
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:33,640
And he says, oh, but you didn't
read any of it.

654
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,760
And she rattles off by heart the
1st 10 or so verses of first

655
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,080
Nephi.
Joseph Smith says, honey, you

656
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,640
can have this book.
I'll get another one from

657
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,400
Brother Morley.
We have that situation.

658
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,680
We also have her out in
Missouri.

659
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,040
And you have probably heard the
story of, you know, they are

660
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,200
publishing the very first book
of Commandments.

661
00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:04,320
Bob comes in and they invade and
they burn down the press.

662
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,640
But there are a bunch of still
raw sheets of the book of

663
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,280
Commandments that have not yet
been put into book form.

664
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:15,080
And these two young girls get as
much of that as they can.

665
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,360
And they go out into a cornfield
and they hold it.

666
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,280
They they they hide them out
there while the mobsters are all

667
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,640
looking for them in this
cornfield.

668
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,120
One of them was Mary Elizabeth
Lightner Rollins, Joseph Smith.

669
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:32,560
Later in about 18411842.
He says to her, God gave you to

670
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,200
me from the time from before we
were born.

671
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,200
And God let me know when I first
met you that you were to be

672
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:44,200
mine.
And he says, in 1831, God told

673
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,400
me that you were to be my wife.
Mary, a little bit of lighter,

674
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,240
said, well, it would have been
nice for you to have told me

675
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:52,120
that.
Besides, I was in Missouri and I

676
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,120
was married to somebody else.
So there's that kind of

677
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,400
indication as to what was going
on and how it was.

678
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,720
The reason that I bring this up
is that he told her from 1831 to

679
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:08,280
about 1842, I had this concept
of plural marriage.

680
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,520
I knew that it was something
that I was supposed to restore.

681
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,560
I'm going to do it.
And you can imagine that he

682
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,680
didn't want to do it.
And he told her, an Angel came

683
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,360
to me three times and said, if
you don't do this, we'll find

684
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,960
somebody who will.
And the story that he told her

685
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,640
that she then wrote in a letter
later was that the last time the

686
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,480
Angel came with a drawn sword.
Now, I don't think he was in any

687
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,800
danger of being, you know,
speared by an Angel.

688
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,000
But it was like, I'm serious
about this, Joseph and we.

689
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,280
Have this.
Indication that Joseph was like,

690
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:48,160
well, OK, what I'll start with
is I will seal women who are

691
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,800
already passed away, who are
already dead.

692
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,160
I'll, I'll, I'll seal them to
me.

693
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,080
And ultimately, you know,
whether it was a direct

694
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,840
revelation to him or whether it
was an Angel or what the story

695
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:05,320
was finally, it was like, you
need to start sealing living

696
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,280
women to you.
And that's where of course, we

697
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,800
have.
The the intersection between the

698
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,640
law and God before we.
Before we move on there.

699
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:21,120
One of the things I often get
pressed on by polygamy deniers

700
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,600
is why don't we have more from
Joseph Smith on living polygamy?

701
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,800
And I think the answer to this
isn't complicated, right?

702
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,040
Why does Brigham feel he can
talk about more?

703
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,600
Because he left the country,
right?

704
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,800
People forget Utah wasn't even a
territory.

705
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:44,120
It was Mexico still, and and so
Brigham has certain latitudes

706
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,600
that Joseph didn't have.
I mean, let's face it, they were

707
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,960
willing to kill him over a new
book of scripture.

708
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,720
Can you imagine what would have
happened had he shattered their

709
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:56,440
Victorian sensibilities with
this idea of plural marriage in

710
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,720
that day?
He wouldn't have stood a chance.

711
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,800
I mean here again.
I want, I want to add to that.

712
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,400
You're right.
You're absolutely right about

713
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,240
that.
There were a couple of.

714
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:09,240
Times that he.
Sort of hinted at it in public.

715
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,480
At one point he got up and he.
Started talking about, you know,

716
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,080
the restoration of all things is
going to include the restoration

717
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,320
of all of the ordinances,
including those that were given

718
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,560
to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
And a he said that in the

719
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:27,440
morning, between then and the
afternoon session, he had a

720
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,680
group of people who came to him
and said, wait, what are you

721
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,600
talking about, Joseph?
You're not talking about

722
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,960
polygamy, are you?
I mean, if you are, we're going

723
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,920
to be in trouble.
And that afternoon he got up and

724
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,600
he said, remember everything I
said this morning, I retract it

725
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,800
all.
So he he would kind of like kind

726
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,200
of go, he would he would try to
move it along to that point, but

727
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,680
it was obviously something that
was going to cause a rift.

728
00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:54,720
Now again, let's get to what's
behind it though.

729
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,040
What has happened by the time
they?

730
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,160
Get to Illinois.
The Mormons have been driven out

731
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,720
from Missouri and they're angry.
They've had their farms burned

732
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:07,760
down.
They've had the property they

733
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,800
paid for with blood, sweat and
tears taken away from them, and

734
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,760
they start making petitions to
the federal government.

735
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,200
We want to be reimbursed.
We want our religious rights.

736
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,240
We want the people of Missouri
to pay us for the things that

737
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:27,000
they stole from us.
They are a political force.

738
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,400
NABU is larger than Chicago at
that point.

739
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,160
The greatest concentration of
political power is there on the

740
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,360
bend of the Mississippi River in
Nauvoo.

741
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:43,560
Joseph Smith, who is seen, as,
you know, the the great Cuba of

742
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,720
the politics there is seen as a
political force.

743
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,560
And you had both people from the
Whig Party and also from the

744
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,560
Democratic Republican Party in
there trying as best they can to

745
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,840
woo this guy to make sure that
they will vote for them.

746
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,760
So they would, I mean, one of
the things that they did was

747
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,120
they passed the Nauvoo charter.
And the Nauvoo charter basically

748
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,800
made the city of Nauvoo a nation
unto itself.

749
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,040
It had its own court system.
It had its own police force.

750
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:13,920
It had its own militia, for that
matter.

751
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,520
And, and that was all because
we'll give you whatever you want

752
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:18,880
if you'll just keep us in
office.

753
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,480
Political power is a lot behind
this.

754
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:29,080
So if Joseph Smith had come out
in favor of polygamy himself,

755
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,120
that would have been one more
reason to knock this guy out

756
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,280
now.
But let's talk about that for a

757
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,440
second.
A lot of people have said, well,

758
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,960
the thing that led to Joseph
Smith's death was because he

759
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,200
destroyed the novel expositor.
And the reason that the novel

760
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,960
expositor had to be destroyed
was because they were letting

761
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,000
polygamy out of the bag to
everybody.

762
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,240
But if we look at history, we
realize that's not the case.

763
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,240
We'd already had a guy who'd
been the assistant president of

764
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:01,640
the church, John C Bennett, who
had written this book called

765
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,480
History of the Saints.
And in that book, he says Joseph

766
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,600
Smith is more than just a
polygamist.

767
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,240
I mean, he's an adulterer.
He's an abuser.

768
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:12,800
He's this, he's that.
He's stealing other men's wives.

769
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,480
And he was going around the
country making all of these

770
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,960
accusations, and he was doing
these lectures all over.

771
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:25,040
So was the first time that
anybody heard about it in the

772
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,480
novel Expositor?
Not at all.

773
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,800
The novel expositor, in fact.
Was just, it was a pretext.

774
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:39,480
Again, you had hordes of people
from Missouri who were coming to

775
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,280
take over and to destroy Joseph
Smith in the same way that or

776
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,480
destroy the Mormons in the same
way that they had in Missouri.

777
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:53,400
Word had gone, I mean, when they
showed up in Carthage, they

778
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,920
didn't know anything about the
novel Expositor.

779
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,440
That had only happened a week
before.

780
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,920
They've been moving from
Missouri for months so that they

781
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:01,160
could take over.
Why?

782
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,320
Two things.
First of all, if we can knock

783
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,920
these people out of here, we can
take their property just as we

784
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,200
did in Missouri.
And of course, you have the

785
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,560
people in Illinois who more than
happy to step in and take over

786
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,640
these farms that have been
cultivated out of the swampland.

787
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:22,400
And also politics, if we get rid
of these guys, we won't have

788
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,120
any, We won't have a bloc that
is voting against this or, or

789
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,200
messing with this here again,
remember, 18 forties, 1844 is

790
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,080
when Joseph Smith died.
What's the big issue?

791
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,080
Slavery.
Most of the people are

792
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,040
Northerners.
And so you've got this issue and

793
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,200
it, I don't know that we can
overemphasize the importance of

794
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,600
slavery in the American psyche.
Back then, it affected

795
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,720
everything.
I mean, if you were the the

796
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:54,800
worst decisions that ever came
from the Supreme Court had to do

797
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,440
with slavery, the Dred Scott
decision where the, you know,

798
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,240
there was a a black man who had
escaped.

799
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:06,000
I think he would need to go to
the North and ultimately got

800
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:07,480
sent back.
And the Supreme Court said,

801
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,400
well, yeah, you know, you can do
what you want with your

802
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,680
property.
They weren't human beings.

803
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,160
They were just property and.
Joseph Smith had.

804
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,320
Taken a very interesting take on
it.

805
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,600
He was like, yeah, I think we
should free the slaves.

806
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,360
And the way we should do it is
we should compensate the people

807
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,120
who we are taking them from.
So we're going to treat them

808
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,560
like property, but we're also
going to free them because we

809
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,200
know they're human beings and
we're going to sell public lands

810
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,400
and pay these people for the
slaves that way.

811
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,560
It was very innovative.
What it is, people have

812
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,560
wondered, well, why is it that
Joseph Smith was running for

813
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,200
president?
Did he really think that he had

814
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,120
a chance of being the president
of the United States?

815
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,440
No, of course not.
He is sort of like a third party

816
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,440
candidate.
Where if he could throw support

817
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:55,120
to one side or the other,
perhaps there was a chance,

818
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,880
number one, they wouldn't come
and invade us and and destroy

819
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,880
us.
And there's always that faint

820
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,320
hope that we might actually get
paid for the property that was

821
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,840
stolen from us in Missouri.
So that was really what was

822
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,680
behind that.
But we look into, again,

823
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,440
polygamy.
What's the law and what's going

824
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,280
on in polygamy?
Things don't really heat up

825
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:19,920
legally until they get out to
Utah.

826
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,040
But I want to talk a little bit
about what happened in Abu OK.

827
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,640
So far.
Dude, it's awesome.

828
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,480
Yeah, keep going.
I'm, I'm enjoying this.

829
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:30,920
Well, you know, I, I will say
this.

830
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,160
I've wondered and this is just
my musings.

831
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,400
Nobody should take this.
You should take a whole spoonful

832
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,240
of salt with this because this
is just my personal musings.

833
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,360
But I understand what Joseph was
trying to do when running for

834
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,680
president, right?
Because you're, you're right.

835
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:55,000
I don't think even he thought he
had a chance at winning, but he

836
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,400
did have an opportunity to
influence the election, right?

837
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,680
And I've often wondered if there
weren't some federal actors

838
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,280
involved in this whole thing as
well, right?

839
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,040
He's running for president.
He could upend an election.

840
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,280
And it's made me wonder, you
know?

841
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:16,600
Perhaps there is.
Federal interest involved in

842
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,600
this as well, not just state and
local.

843
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,400
Because he could, he could mess
some stuff up for for either the

844
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,600
incumbent or the challenger.
Well, of course there were

845
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,480
federal interests.
That were involved because,

846
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,960
well, first of all, let's none
of us be under the illusion that

847
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,120
Washington DC was any cleaner
back then than it is today.

848
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,000
Or for that matter, that people
were less polarized than they

849
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,440
are today.
You, I don't think you could

850
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,000
find a more polarizing issue
than slavery.

851
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,640
I mean, either you were either
you believed that that black

852
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,120
people were human beings and
deserved civil rights, or you

853
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,640
believed they were property and
they were nothing.

854
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,200
They were like cattle.
They were like your house.

855
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,880
They were like your field.
I mean, they could be bought and

856
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,960
sold.
And it's awfully difficult to

857
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,160
find any kind of middle ground
there.

858
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:07,760
So were there federal interests?
Yeah.

859
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,640
And we see what those federal
interests were a mere 20 years

860
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,560
later when we're in the middle
of a civil war and the federal

861
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:19,480
government is trying to maintain
a union, and you've got state

862
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,200
interests that are saying keep
away from us.

863
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,680
Interestingly enough, even the
Southern states had a federal

864
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,400
government.
They had the Confederate states,

865
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,280
and it was a confederation.
But nonetheless, there was going

866
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,440
to be that.
So yeah, there was.

867
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,160
There were federal interests
that were involved.

868
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,600
There were political interests
all over the place, and as you

869
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,640
look at kind of what was going
on, you realize that.

870
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,960
Politics was not.
Only not any less dirty than it

871
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,640
is now, but it was probably even
worse because now we've got the

872
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,120
Internet.
I mean, if somebody really is

873
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:55,880
corrupt, somebody's going to
find something.

874
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,800
There's going to be some sort of
evidence that you're going to be

875
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,520
able to find.
You're going to be able to track

876
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,240
down a bank account and you're
going to be able to say that

877
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:05,320
bunch of ones and zeros in a
digital account can be traced to

878
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,640
that guy.
You couldn't do that back in

879
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,400
1844.
Dirty money.

880
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,200
And in fact, dirty money was all
cash.

881
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,080
I mean, you know, there was sort
of a check system and Kirtland,

882
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,200
OH was one of those situations
where they they tried those kind

883
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,800
of notes and it all fell apart.
But when it really got down to

884
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:30,000
it, the politics were a mess.
And again, Joseph Smith kept

885
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:35,840
saying, look, we just want our
constitutional rights and we'll

886
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,120
find out later the the the
Constitution pretty much let him

887
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,000
down.
I mean, you find in Section 110

888
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,120
of the LDS Doctrine and
Covenants that he went to the

889
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:46,920
Lord and he said, tell me about
the Constitution.

890
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,960
And it was like, well, here's
the constitution of the country,

891
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,400
and anything more or less than
that comes of evil and.

892
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,600
It was a very.
Interesting kind of state as to

893
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:00,400
what the Constitution meant, but
one of the points was the very

894
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,880
First Amendment guarantees us
religious freedom.

895
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,320
We should be able to do whatever
we want.

896
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,560
And of course, like I said,
you're right in Victorian

897
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,120
America coming out and saying we
think that it's a great idea

898
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,320
that you should have more than
one wife.

899
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,280
That is part of the restoration
of all things, like I said.

900
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,600
People would get up to.
One point and then they'd say

901
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,520
we're out.
But when that even became even

902
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,760
semi public, Joseph Smith was
telling certain members of the

903
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,800
church.
It's presumed that.

904
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,520
When the Saints were driven out
of Nauvoo, there were probably

905
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,240
200 people that were involved in
plural marriage at that point.

906
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,080
So he told Joseph Smith, he told
the the council of the 12, and

907
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,680
he'd also presented the
revelation that ultimately was

908
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:53,200
Doctrine Covenant Section 132 to
the Nauvoo High Council and to

909
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,440
the the 12.
And there were three people who

910
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,040
had real issues with it.
One of them was William Law, who

911
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,200
was a counselor in the First
Presidency.

912
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,320
One of them was William Marks,
who was the president of the

913
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,400
Nauvoo Stake.
And one of them was Leonard

914
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,200
Sobey.
And he had another position that

915
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,000
I can't remember, but they said
absolutely not, not going to

916
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,280
happen.
And that's was what ultimately

917
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,000
got down to the Nauvoo
Expositor.

918
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:23,080
I have a a stereotype copy of
the Nauvoo Expositor.

919
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,400
It's very interesting because
they say we believe in Mormonism

920
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,480
and we believe that Joseph Smith
was a prophet up until he came

921
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,720
up with that crazy stuff, up
until.

922
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:39,640
About two things they had.
Problems with one of them was

923
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,800
the was plural marriage and the
other one was the multiplicity

924
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,720
of gods that had been introduced
in the king fall of this.

925
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,520
And they said and that and they
they all said, that's where we

926
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,280
get off.
That's where we're leading.

927
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,120
So like I said.
I don't think anybody.

928
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,880
Was worked up about.
The novel Expositor and I've got

929
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,280
a great book.
It was published a couple of

930
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:09,000
years ago by Eborn Books called
The Murder of Joseph Smith.

931
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,480
It's by a guy by the name of
Legrand Baker.

932
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,680
I don't know who he is, but if
you got the name of Legrand, you

933
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:18,760
know it's a Mormon guy you.
Know there's.

934
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,560
Certainly they're going to have
the Legrand, although my very

935
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:26,800
favorite Mormon Utah name is a
woman by the name of Honestly,

936
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,080
Latrina.
Come on, really.

937
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,000
Her parents hated her.
Were you?

938
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:36,520
How far down the road were you?
Thinking about that.

939
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,640
Right, right.
But but he.

940
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,760
Points out that if he did a
survey of all of the newspapers

941
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:50,240
in that time period, nobody was
worked up about shutting down a

942
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:53,040
press that had had one press
run.

943
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,680
I mean, if they just shut down
maybe the New York Times, that

944
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,200
would have been something else.
But somebody comes up with the

945
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,360
press.
It's like I'm, I'm putting out

946
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,080
a, I'm, I'm doing mimeograph
sheets right now.

947
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,320
And somebody comes by and says,
you can't really do that.

948
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,560
They, they're shutting me down.
I can't see anybody, you know,

949
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,200
deciding to try and kill
somebody over there.

950
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,720
That was just the trigger they
needed to get him.

951
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,920
And in fact, when he was
arrested and went to Carthage,

952
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:19,920
they didn't arrest.
Him.

953
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:27,600
For knocking down the press.
They went after him for treason.

954
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:31,680
Why treason?
Well treason is when you commit

955
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,800
a crime against the state.
He could have gotten out from

956
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,040
under that.
But treason was a non bailable

957
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,480
offense.
You couldn't bail out of jail

958
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,760
with treason.
You could.

959
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,400
If it was.
Destruction of property, You

960
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,560
could if it was assault and
battery, but if it was treason,

961
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,600
they kept you in jail.
And while he is awaiting to be

962
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,200
heard by a judge in Carthage,
which is the county state, he

963
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,280
can't leave.
They can't bail him out.

964
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,280
And that's when the mob comes in
and kills him.

965
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,800
I see that's that's.
Fascinating, right?

966
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,880
Because you start to see the
political mechanisms at work

967
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:09,320
here.
It's also.

968
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,200
One of the few crimes that.
Almost always back in those days

969
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,320
carried the death penalty as
well.

970
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,240
And you know, I think it's
worth.

971
00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:23,440
Pointing out too here that right
people, especially not

972
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:28,160
antagonistic non Mormons will
say well I mean how much

973
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,120
influence could they have
wielded right in those days?

974
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,080
People forget Nauvoo was bigger
than Chicago in its heyday.

975
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:41,080
It was it was on its way to
becoming a massive population

976
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,360
center within the heartland of
the United States.

977
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,880
And that had to, you know,
unnerve a few people.

978
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:53,000
The fact they have their own,
they have the Nauvoo Legion, the

979
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:58,680
fact that that they are the
only, in my estimation,

980
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,480
counterculture up to that point
within the United States that is

981
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,800
thriving.
And I think that's worrying to a

982
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,360
lot of people.
Oh, it was very.

983
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,280
Worrying to them.
And I would give you a modern

984
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,960
counterpart to that.
I mean, I think if you look at

985
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:20,880
Milwaukee, WI, you have a very
high concentration of Muslims.

986
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:25,800
And now you have certain people.
And, and I think it's mostly the

987
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,080
the Republicans who are freaking
out over there and they're

988
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:32,520
saying, wait a minute, if these
people all vote as a block soon

989
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,640
it's going to be Sharia law.
We're going to end up with

990
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,440
Muslim law that's going to
impose and that's and it's going

991
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:38,840
to spread throughout the United
States.

992
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,800
I mean, you're always going to
have a group out there that is

993
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,040
saying if you have this people
that are that are out of the

994
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,720
mainstream, but they've got a
majority and they actually are

995
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:52,240
able to control a voting bloc,
they are a danger to us.

996
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:54,480
And that was what the Mormons
were.

997
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,960
And you know, Joseph Smith was
seen as this, you know, this

998
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:04,080
this dictator essentially.
And you know, you had people who

999
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:08,520
would come up, they'd visit him
and they'd say, we're shocked.

1000
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,120
At the way that this guy.
Is we we thought that he was

1001
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,840
just, you know, we thought that
he was the equivalent of some,

1002
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,120
you know, kind of dictator.
He's just like a regular guy.

1003
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,320
You know, we got off the boat,
we found him down there.

1004
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:21,920
He was just chopping wood.
He seemed like a really nice

1005
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,200
farm guy from from New York and
at.

1006
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,480
One point I.
Can't try to remember the.

1007
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,920
The guy who later wrote.
I mean, it was like in the

1008
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:36,400
1870s, eighteen 80s, he wrote
about his day in Nauvoo and he

1009
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,760
said to Joseph Smith, don't you
think that having all of this

1010
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,240
political power in your hands, I
mean, do you think that's safe?

1011
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,720
And Joseph Smith is reported to
have said something like, in the

1012
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,800
hands of anybody else, it would
be, but I'm a prophet.

1013
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,000
And then they said, well, how
do?

1014
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:55,080
You how do you rule these
people?

1015
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:56,240
He says.
I don't rule them.

1016
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:58,560
I just teach them.
Principles, they, they.

1017
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,640
Govern themselves.
I don't have to govern them.

1018
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:02,680
I teach them what comes from
heaven.

1019
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:07,160
Well, to anybody who doesn't
believe that, it looks pretty

1020
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,200
scary to have somebody who's
who's there.

1021
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,640
And we have modern counterparts
that people look at.

1022
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,120
It's like, well, wait a minute,
We have, you know, we got David

1023
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,720
Koresh and he's got this little
group of Branch Davidians down

1024
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,640
there and he's trying to make
things happen.

1025
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,400
And what's the only thing we can
do?

1026
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,360
We got to burn him out.
We got to we got to destroy him.

1027
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:30,440
And you will find that a lot.
It's a, it's a terrible legacy

1028
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,320
that we have in the United
States that when we have a

1029
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:37,760
religious group that is so far
out of the mainstream, first of

1030
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:39,240
all, we've got rumors about
them.

1031
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:41,840
Then we've got all sorts of
scare tactics.

1032
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,280
Then suddenly they're the
they're the greatest public

1033
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:46,280
menace.
And then we've got to move

1034
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,640
against them.
And that was essentially what's

1035
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:54,160
going on in Nazu, right?
Joseph Smith didn't institute

1036
00:58:54,320 --> 00:59:00,360
polygamy as a doctrine of the
Church, but he did tell the 12

1037
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:05,080
He did tell others.
This has been revealed to me now

1038
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,560
what about the law?
Well, at the time that Joseph

1039
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:13,200
Smith was arrested, he had been
charged by William Law of

1040
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:18,680
adultery and there was a
criminal complaint that was

1041
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,040
made-up by Can you imagine today
the a member of the First

1042
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,400
Presidency making out a criminal
complaint against the president

1043
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,360
of the Church, right?
That would be.

1044
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,200
Insanity.
Yeah, I can't even imagine.

1045
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,480
Such a thing.
But that was the situation.

1046
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:33,920
William Law had been
excommunicated.

1047
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,240
He was angry about it.
He was upset and he thought

1048
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:38,920
Joseph Smith was a fallen
prophet.

1049
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,920
And of course, you know, hell
hath no fury like a woman

1050
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,600
scorned.
I think hell hath no fury like

1051
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,960
William Law.
And he was upset and he made it

1052
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,640
out.
Now, would Joseph Smith have

1053
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,000
been able to beat that?
Probably.

1054
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,560
And it's because the way that
the law of adultery read it was

1055
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:00,840
that you, you were having, I
mean.

1056
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,440
Adultery was to have sexual.
Relations outside of your own

1057
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:09,320
marriage.
And a polygamist marriage was

1058
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,240
not considered to be a marriage.
I mean, they didn't apply for a

1059
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:13,600
license.
It would have been considered to

1060
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,680
be, but it also had to be open
and obvious.

1061
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,520
And that was the one thing that
polygamy was not, was open and

1062
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,360
obvious.
Now, if Joseph Smith had gone in

1063
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:26,840
and had to actually defend
himself and say, well, yeah,

1064
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:28,160
it's true.
I was having sex with this

1065
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,200
woman, but it wasn't open and
obvious until William Law made

1066
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,920
it open and obvious.
It would have been devastating

1067
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,240
but he died before it ever went
to court and of course then the

1068
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:38,880
the charge went against him as
well.

1069
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,280
Holy cow, this is.
It it's just especially like I

1070
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,880
know the story, right?
But what I don't know is what

1071
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,480
you're illuminating here, which
are the political ramifications

1072
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:56,120
and the, the, the powers, the
political powers at play here.

1073
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:58,560
And that's what I find
fascinating.

1074
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:01,120
Well.
Here's what we find.

1075
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,200
You know, when you're growing up
in the church, as I did.

1076
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,840
And you know, you take a church.
History course, or I mean, you

1077
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,840
know, a seminary or you take
one, an institute or whatever,

1078
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:17,160
you get one side of the story.
Now, as a lawyer, I understand

1079
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:18,560
what it's like to give one side
of the story.

1080
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,320
I only give my side of the story
when I am putting together a

1081
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:23,880
brief for a client.
I'll say, OK, here are the

1082
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,840
facts, but here's how you should
really read them.

1083
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:30,800
And basically the history that
we've gotten from the church is

1084
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,480
the church's legal brief.
Here's what really happened.

1085
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:36,840
You know, they were persecuted
because of their beliefs and

1086
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:38,200
they were persecuted because of
that.

1087
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,360
And Joseph was a prophet and
these other people were

1088
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,840
influenced by Satan, etcetera.
If you got the legal brief from

1089
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,480
the other side, it would be
completely different the legal

1090
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:49,640
brief.
Would be these people.

1091
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,880
Came in, they're outsiders.
They told us that they were

1092
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,320
going to take all of our lands.
They told us that this was the

1093
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,680
lion, that land of Zion, and we
needed to get out of here.

1094
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,920
And they said that they were
going to do it with slavery.

1095
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,360
And suddenly, you know, we're on
the outs and we just got to

1096
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,920
defend ourselves.
And usually when I go to court,

1097
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:10,480
the truth is somewhere in the
middle.

1098
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:13,560
But the one thing that we do
need to.

1099
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:17,520
Be aware of is that usually in
almost every case having to do

1100
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,520
with Mormons, there's a
political aspect behind the

1101
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:22,720
scenes.
And what we're talking about

1102
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,760
with polygamy is all just a
pretext.

1103
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:29,080
That's the trigger that you use
because it's easy.

1104
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:31,160
It's so out.
There.

1105
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,720
That you can.
Say, see, these people don't

1106
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:35,960
deserve to be here.
They shouldn't even be in the

1107
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,440
United States.
We need to get rid of them.

1108
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,080
We need to destroy them.
And while we're at it, we're

1109
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:43,680
going to take all their land.
I mean, they're, no, they're no

1110
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:47,320
better than, well, we'll talk
about what the US Supreme Court

1111
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,640
said, that they're no better
than the alien hordes.

1112
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:53,960
And they are probably even
subhuman.

1113
01:02:55,800 --> 01:03:03,200
There was later an attempt to
stop anybody who was a member of

1114
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,840
the church who had been
converted in a different land

1115
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:11,040
from being able to immigrate to
the United States because they

1116
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,400
were subhuman.
All for being Mormon.

1117
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,680
Yeah, the the.
Mere fact they had joined the

1118
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,520
church meant that they weren't
white.

1119
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,520
They weren't white enough.
Why?

1120
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:26,640
Because they subscribe to that
Asiatic practice of plural

1121
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:32,320
marriage, interesting Asiatic
practice that the Muslims have.

1122
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:34,680
That's that's what we don't
like.

1123
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:38,760
And so the Mormons were not
trying to take you backwards.

1124
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:42,600
They were trying to de evolve.
And that was the argument.

1125
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,120
Of course, you know you ignore
the whole point that while that

1126
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:49,720
whole Asiatic practice came from
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David,

1127
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,640
Solomon, you know what I.
Mean there are there are a lot

1128
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:55,600
more eons.
Of people who are polygamous

1129
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:59,760
than there were monogamous that
didn't factor in because it

1130
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:05,000
wasn't American history.
So they leave.

1131
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,200
Joseph is killed.
Brigham Young.

1132
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:12,440
Ultimately takes over the
church.

1133
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:15,320
At first the 12 apostles take
over, but remember the 12

1134
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:20,720
apostles had all been introduced
to plural marriage and it was

1135
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,120
known among some members of the
church.

1136
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:27,440
And of course it became.
Better known now, there's a lot

1137
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,200
of history that I'm skipping
here.

1138
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,720
You know part of it.
John C Bennett, who when he

1139
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:35,600
finds out that plural marriage
is out there in Nauvoo, he's

1140
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:39,920
like, well, hey, I'm a good red
blooded American boy and I'm

1141
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,760
going to take advantage of this.
So he goes.

1142
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,400
Out and just starts.
He just he just starts in on

1143
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,520
different women and and he's
just seducing them all and he's

1144
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:51,320
like, hey, Joseph is good with
this.

1145
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,720
Everybody knows that.
So if we just have sex and

1146
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:55,840
nobody finds out about it, it's
going to be good.

1147
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,400
So at every.
Single step you're.

1148
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,200
Going to have another side
that's going to somehow manage

1149
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:06,000
to, to denigrate it and to make
it bad.

1150
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,800
But by the time that the Mormons
are leaving and they're on their

1151
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:13,360
way to, to Utah, it's, it's a
big enough of a sacrifice that

1152
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:15,000
you're not going to find a lot
of people who are going to try

1153
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,000
and take advantage of that
situation.

1154
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:21,320
I mean, you really have to want
to, to go to Utah to be part of

1155
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:29,240
the, the Mormon exodus.
So they get to Utah 1847 and

1156
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:32,000
here again, there is polygamy
going on, but it isn't an

1157
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,400
official part of the church.
It isn't an official doctrine.

1158
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:37,400
Officially, they still.
Have.

1159
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,880
That declaration of marriage,
that was in the first book of

1160
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:45,360
commandments in 18, I think.
Well, and, and as you said, when

1161
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:47,240
the Mormons got here, it was
Mexico.

1162
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,840
So they're outside the United
States now.

1163
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:54,440
They weren't too worried about,
you know, is Mexico going to

1164
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,120
come in here and trade?
No.

1165
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,120
In fact, just the opposite.
You'll find out as you look at

1166
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,800
legal history that the Mormons
started up their own court

1167
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,800
system.
They had their own Supreme

1168
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:08,600
Court.
They had their own legislature.

1169
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:12,400
It was intended that this would
be, for all intents and

1170
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:16,960
purposes, a separate nation.
And in fact.

1171
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,040
They had their own flag.
And in fact, they had their own

1172
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,720
alphabet.
I mean, they were so separated

1173
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:27,720
from the rest of American
Society that they were a people

1174
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:29,960
apart.
And it was at that point that

1175
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,480
you now start to look at the
Journal of Discourses.

1176
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:37,520
And now all of the doctrinal
innovations that came during the

1177
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,240
Brigham Young period.
They're free to talk about

1178
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,680
because they're no longer a
threat to the United States.

1179
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,200
They're not in the United
States.

1180
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:50,000
Aha.
Well, what are those Mormons

1181
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:55,560
doing out there in 1850?
The Utah Territory is

1182
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:58,160
established, and that's a
federal thing.

1183
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:00,920
So you've got the federal
government that.

1184
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:07,120
Says this is a federal territory
and they kind of get.

1185
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:10,840
Around it by saying.
Well, OK, you've already got a

1186
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,520
system set up here.
Brigham Young is going to be the

1187
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:17,280
first territorial governor, and
he was fine.

1188
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,240
Everybody seemed to be fine with
that until about 1852.

1189
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:25,040
It was in August of 1852 that
there was a public announcement

1190
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:29,400
that celestial plural marriage
was a tenet of the Church.

1191
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,080
Now here again we get into the
question of.

1192
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:40,120
What's behind this?
Where are the Mormons going to

1193
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:46,360
go, and are they going to be
allowed to vote as citizens of a

1194
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:50,320
federal territory?
And if so, how are they going to

1195
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,720
vote?
1856 comes along.

1196
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:58,280
The Whig Party in America has
now pretty much spent itself and

1197
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:00,000
you have a new party, the
Republican Party.

1198
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:06,720
They have their first National
Convention and they, the

1199
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,560
Democrats have got James
Buchanan.

1200
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:14,000
The Republicans have got John C
Fremont, who, by the way, had

1201
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:15,920
happened to have explored all
over Utah.

1202
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:20,160
He was a big explorer.
Well, John C Fremont is there

1203
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:25,840
and they adopt A platform, the
Republican platform, and it said

1204
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:35,520
we wish to destroy the two twin
relics of barbarism, slavery and

1205
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:39,080
polygamy.
And it's about that time.

1206
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:44,200
That word gets out these these
Mormons are having none of it.

1207
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:47,840
These Mormons, I mean, they're
marrying people left and right,

1208
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:50,479
and they think that they think
that they are their own country.

1209
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:53,399
So what happens?
President James Buchanan said,

1210
01:08:53,399 --> 01:08:56,520
well, show them who's boss.
And he starts sending out

1211
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:59,200
federal troops.
Now, this is an interesting

1212
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:03,279
story.
Brigham Young had already been

1213
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:09,680
driven out of Kirtland and
driven out of Missouri, driven

1214
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:12,760
out of Illinois.
And he was like, they're not

1215
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:17,359
driving us out again.
If they come to Salt Lake City,

1216
01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:21,640
if they invade, we will burn
every damn thing here to the

1217
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:25,840
ground.
And that was and he abandoned

1218
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:27,640
Salt Lake City and everybody
went to Provo.

1219
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,720
And when they?
Got here, They're marching up

1220
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:32,960
and down the city.
There's nobody's here.

1221
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:35,560
They already.
Had the foundation.

1222
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:40,279
Of the Salt Lake Temple and they
they covered it up so you've got

1223
01:09:40,279 --> 01:09:41,560
the general who.
Comes in to salt.

1224
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:42,240
Lake City.
And he goes.

1225
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:44,880
There's just a field here.
Why do they?

1226
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:48,600
Put a wall around it?
Well, I don't know, but OK,

1227
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:51,880
there's nothing here because
they were having none of it.

1228
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:55,880
Well, in the end, the Utah War
didn't become a war.

1229
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:59,040
There was kind of a war in the
sense that you did have Mormons

1230
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,120
who would go out and they'd raid
the public, the federal troops.

1231
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:07,400
But one of the issues had to do
with essentially who's in charge

1232
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,800
of Utah.
Is it going to be these Mormons

1233
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:14,800
and their and their phony
priesthood or are we going to do

1234
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:16,840
it?
Well, ultimately, they keep

1235
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:20,280
sending out all of these
governors from Washington, DC

1236
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:25,320
Federal governors come here and
they want to wipe out polygamy

1237
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:27,720
among the.
Other things, like I said,

1238
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:28,760
that's.
Usually a trigger.

1239
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:31,640
That's usually the big issue,
but it's not the real issue.

1240
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:34,280
The real issue is who's going to
dominate the politics out here.

1241
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:37,480
Because they would say, well,
polygamy is, you know, it's,

1242
01:10:37,480 --> 01:10:41,280
it's immoral, it's wrong.
And yet you have some of these

1243
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:43,720
governors who'd come out here.
They came out here with their

1244
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:46,680
mistresses.
They had like #3 with them.

1245
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:49,240
So the Mormons.
Were like what are you what?

1246
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:52,200
Are you talking about this has
nothing to do with morality.

1247
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:54,800
This has to do with political
power.

1248
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,440
Remember, there's always a
political aspect behind all of

1249
01:10:58,440 --> 01:11:00,800
this, right, Randall?
Can I ask?

1250
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,120
You a quick question 'cause this
is something I've wondered about

1251
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:09,800
at this time we're getting close
to putting it.

1252
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,040
It's not quite the Civil War
yet, but are there plans in

1253
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:15,960
place for things like the
transcontinental railroad yet?

1254
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:21,200
Are there plans in place for
businessmen for the minerals

1255
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:23,680
that were in Utah cause Utah
during this time period is

1256
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:28,400
pretty mineral rich, correct.
And so do you know of any

1257
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,320
business interests that were
there that were that that

1258
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:35,320
affected some of the politics as
well, you know, money from big

1259
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:39,400
business flowing into political?
Yes, of course.

1260
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:42,080
Yeah, yeah.
And Brigham Young said, look,

1261
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:44,160
there is more gold in these
hills than you're going to find

1262
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:46,360
in the hills of California.
Now, remember there were the

1263
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:50,760
there was the discovery of gold
in 1849 at Sutter's Mill in

1264
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:54,040
California by, by the way,
members of the Mormon Battalion.

1265
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,120
And, and there was, there were
mineral interests.

1266
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:03,360
And yeah, the transcontinental
railroad was ultimately, I mean,

1267
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:07,920
the gold golden spike was in
Promontory, Utah in 1863.

1268
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:10,720
So, yeah, there was always some
interest here.

1269
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:13,520
And of course, the more that it
looked like there was going to

1270
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:17,000
be an incursion from both sides.
Now you've got California on the

1271
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:19,720
one side.
You've got, you know, the United

1272
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:23,360
States on the other side.
And the state of Deseret took in

1273
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:28,200
all of Nevada, the very southern
part of California almost.

1274
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,480
Well, Las Vegas, there were
parts of Arizona.

1275
01:12:30,480 --> 01:12:34,280
I mean, it was huge, right it?
Stretched up into Oregon, if I'm

1276
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:37,520
not mistaken.
I mean, it was massive, yeah.

1277
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:39,680
And.
Yeah, I went up into Idaho.

1278
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:41,680
I mean, it was, it was, it was
enormous.

1279
01:12:42,480 --> 01:12:44,600
And in fact, it was very
interesting.

1280
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:49,600
I used to live in Nevada and
Carson Valley, Nevada was, I

1281
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,360
mean, there's there's a place
called Genoa.

1282
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:57,920
And I once went into, I was in a
rock'n'roll band once, long ago,

1283
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:00,840
went in to play at a bar and
there's a great big picture of

1284
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:04,200
Orson Hyde on the wall.
And I was like, wait, what?

1285
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:06,440
I said, do you know who that is?
And we're like, no, I don't.

1286
01:13:06,440 --> 01:13:08,560
I don't know who it is, because
that's Orson Hyde.

1287
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:11,360
Oh yeah, this used to be called
Hyde's Bar.

1288
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:13,800
Really.
I'd never.

1289
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:15,880
Opened the bar.
But he was one of the founders

1290
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:18,920
of just knowing about it's.
Fascinating.

1291
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:23,160
When he left, he cursed the.
Valley And he said, you're not

1292
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:25,800
going to have me here.
I'm watching my my feet of you

1293
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:27,640
people and I hope you're all
cursed.

1294
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:29,640
And then of course, the casinos
came.

1295
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:34,560
So I guess it came true.
But it was it.

1296
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:36,720
Was huge.
And yeah, so there was a huge

1297
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:42,360
political state there that, I
mean, you all you needed to do

1298
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:46,480
is just look at Carson City and
and Virginia City and all of the

1299
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:49,400
gold rush that went there.
So, yeah, there was, there was a

1300
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:52,520
lot of interest here.
And we've got to take control

1301
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:55,480
away from these Mormons.
So that was always.

1302
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:57,840
An issue now we.
Also, get into the Civil War.

1303
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:00,880
Brigham Millen was more than
happy to just stay out of the

1304
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,560
Civil War.
He was like, that isn't our war,

1305
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:06,040
we're out of the United States.
They want to fight each other to

1306
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:08,320
death.
That's exactly right.

1307
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:11,520
That's fine.
And in fact, we have that

1308
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:15,840
prophecy on war that was given
by by Joseph Smith.

1309
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:17,680
And he said there'll be a civil
war.

1310
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:20,400
It'll probably start in South
Carolina, which it did.

1311
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:23,560
It'll be slaves against their
masters, which it was.

1312
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:25,640
They can fight it out.
We're done.

1313
01:14:26,440 --> 01:14:31,280
Well, it's at the same time that
now you have a federal bill

1314
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:39,400
called the Morrill MORRILL Anti
Bigamy Act and under that you

1315
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:42,400
could not have plural marriage
in any US territory.

1316
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:44,840
Now it was obviously focused
towards Mormons.

1317
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:48,360
And although it's it's.
Very.

1318
01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:54,240
It was very interesting because
the question was just who's

1319
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:56,760
going to have control over the
church?

1320
01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:58,920
Who's going to have a control
over the corporation?

1321
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:04,920
Well, they never really enforced
the moral act, and the reason it

1322
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,000
was never really enforced at
that point was because the

1323
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:10,320
country was in the middle of the
civil war now.

1324
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:11,640
There was I'm trying to
remember.

1325
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:14,960
The name of the the guy from
from Utah, he was a non Mormon

1326
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:18,680
who he was a big wig in
Washington and he went to

1327
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:22,240
Lincoln and he said, are you
really going to start sending

1328
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:24,320
several federal troops out to
Utah?

1329
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:27,920
And he said, hey, listen, I got
bigger fish to fry right now

1330
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:32,400
trying to keep it together.
And then he said, if you tell

1331
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:35,800
Brigham Young to leave me alone,
you tell Brigham Young I'll

1332
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:38,440
leave him alone.
And then he gave this great

1333
01:15:38,440 --> 01:15:41,360
thing he said when I was a boy,
and we would go out and plow a

1334
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:44,280
field.
Sometimes we'd run into a log in

1335
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:48,200
the middle of the field, and it
was too wet to burn and it was

1336
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:50,920
too heavy to move.
So we just plow around it,

1337
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:52,720
that's what.
We're going to do with the

1338
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:55,200
Mormons.
We're just going to plow around

1339
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:56,840
them.
We got no interest in them.

1340
01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:00,880
They've got no interest in US.
So.

1341
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:04,080
Seems like a pretty reasonable.
A reasonable platform, right?

1342
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:06,720
I mean, that doesn't seem a lot
of sense from a political.

1343
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:10,680
Standpoint, it's like, you know,
Buchanan already.

1344
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:12,320
Sent Federal.
Troops out there, that was a

1345
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:13,760
bust.
You think I'm going to go out

1346
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:15,680
there and try and stop people
from marrying who they want to

1347
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:17,640
marry?
Look, they can do whatever they

1348
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:19,480
want.
That's that's their own thing.

1349
01:16:21,480 --> 01:16:25,320
I mean, there are other areas.
Of of of western history that

1350
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,160
are interesting.
The whole reason that Nevada is

1351
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:34,200
a is a state was because they
came in as a Union state.

1352
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:37,360
And the reason they came in like
that was because they really

1353
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:40,680
needed the silver and the gold
that was coming out of Nevada to

1354
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:45,800
to fund the war.
So that was that's an thing they

1355
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:49,920
came in on on Halloween, I think
in 1863.

1356
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:53,560
Yeah, Yeah, I think.
I think that's why the motto was

1357
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:56,840
Battle born right?
That's that's the Nevada motto.

1358
01:16:57,240 --> 01:16:59,600
No, no actual battles in.
Nevada, but that was the whole

1359
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,720
point was the motto was battle
born because they needed it and

1360
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:06,240
they they they can't became a
state because of the battles.

1361
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:09,240
All right well, so we go
further.

1362
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:13,840
We're about 1870 and we've got
this moral anti bigamy act.

1363
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:18,480
And here again.
It's not being really.

1364
01:17:18,480 --> 01:17:22,600
Enforced, they do keep sending
out all of these federal people

1365
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:26,960
and these federal people keep
going back and saying we can try

1366
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:32,280
and enforce everything that we
want, but in the end there's

1367
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:34,040
nothing we can do Brigham Young
is in charge.

1368
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:37,920
He's he's the big kahuna and
there's nothing we can do about

1369
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:40,280
it.
It's about this time that the

1370
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:43,360
Mormons, well, in about 1876,
the war is over.

1371
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:49,520
There's been a big debate in, in
the Tabernacle between a

1372
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:53,560
Reverend Newman, who was the
reverend for the US Congress,

1373
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:57,000
and Orson Pratt.
And it was a three day debate.

1374
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:00,400
And it was the name of the
debate was does the Bible

1375
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:04,560
sanction polygamy?
And ultimately Newman just had

1376
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:06,600
to give up and just go home with
his tail between his legs.

1377
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:11,000
It was like, OK, the one guy you
don't want to debate is Orson

1378
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:13,920
Pratt cause.
Orson Pratt apparently wiped

1379
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:14,800
the.
Floor with this guy.

1380
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:17,960
I mean, it was just like, it's
all over the Bible.

1381
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:19,040
Come on.
Really.

1382
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:21,320
Was it ever rescinded in the
Bible?

1383
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:25,240
You can't find it rescinded.
So that was an.

1384
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:30,560
Interesting kind of thing, but
in 1876 section 132 was finally

1385
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:35,960
canonized, and so the other the
earlier article on marriage was

1386
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:39,400
then taken out of the LDS
Doctrine Covenant Section 132.

1387
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:43,840
Section 132 is kind of an
interesting situation because it

1388
01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:50,280
was never intended to be a.
A revelation to the Church.

1389
01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:52,760
It was intended to be a
revelation to Emma Smith.

1390
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:57,280
And in fact, I mean, it was you
probably know the story.

1391
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:02,280
I mean, you know, just if he's
he's Hiram comes to to Joseph

1392
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:04,600
and he says, you know, Emma's
really upset about this.

1393
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:08,400
And but if you'll just give me a
revelation, I'll go talk to her.

1394
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:11,080
I'm sure she'll come around.
He goes over.

1395
01:19:11,160 --> 01:19:13,080
There she.
Takes it, takes one to look at

1396
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:15,240
it, throws it in the fire and
says it's not a revelation for

1397
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:18,160
me.
And he goes back to Joseph and

1398
01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:20,960
he says, this didn't turn out as
well as I thought it was going

1399
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:22,960
to.
And Joseph shakes his head and

1400
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:25,560
says, you don't know Emma the
way that I know Emma.

1401
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:28,960
And here again, there have been
all sorts of different.

1402
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:32,200
I mean, the scenarios that went
on in Noobu I don't have time to

1403
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:35,240
get into, but they are very
interesting the way that all

1404
01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:37,560
came.
But we're going to Fast forward

1405
01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:42,560
to 1876, where now you have want
more from the Mormon?

1406
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:47,200
Renegade Podcast Head over to
the Mormon Renegade Rumble page

1407
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:51,120
to see all the videos from the
podcast and the fundamental news

1408
01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:53,880
program for free.
Still not.

1409
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:56,680
Enough.
Then join the Mormon Renegade

1410
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:01,040
Locals page by clicking the red
join button and for $5.00 a

1411
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:05,440
month you can have access to
podcast transcripts, Renegade

1412
01:20:05,440 --> 01:20:09,360
exclusives, as well as weekly
live stream show with the host

1413
01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:12,840
Dave Sanders.
Click the link in this episode's

1414
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:15,800
show notes today.
And here.

1415
01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:18,280
Again, there had been all sorts
of different, I mean, the

1416
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:21,760
scenarios that went on in Nabu I
don't have time to get into, but

1417
01:20:22,200 --> 01:20:24,120
they are very interesting the
way that all came.

1418
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:30,680
But we're going to Fast forward
to 1876 where now you have the

1419
01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:36,800
it's now officially canonized.
Now at this point, we still have

1420
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:41,320
the moral act that is taking
polygamy.

1421
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:45,280
I mean, it's it's it's it's
illegal in any US territory,

1422
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:50,640
Utah still AUS territory.
And you have a case called

1423
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:55,960
Reynolds versus United States.
George Reynolds was actually the

1424
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:59,480
secretary to Brigham Young and
he said I'll be the sacrificial

1425
01:20:59,480 --> 01:21:01,800
lamb.
I will let them arrest me.

1426
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:04,680
And then I am going to go ahead
and challenge the

1427
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:10,960
constitutionality of the moral
anti bigamy law because we.

1428
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:13,000
Have a right?
I mean, we have a religious

1429
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:18,680
right to do what we want to do.
The Reynolds decision, which

1430
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:26,720
came down in. 1879 has affected
almost every aspect of religious

1431
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:32,560
freedom since then in the United
States, and it's still affecting

1432
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:35,400
religious freedom issues here.
I mean, that's that.

1433
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:38,600
I'll, I'll tell you how it is
that it is and what the little

1434
01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:42,240
contours of it are, but it's
it's a disastrous mess.

1435
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:48,120
I'm going to read you a little
bit from the from that that

1436
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:52,200
decision if I can find it here
because it is, it's really.

1437
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:56,280
Interesting because in the same.
Way that they did not want to

1438
01:21:56,280 --> 01:22:00,840
have you know these these.
Let's see if I can.

1439
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:02,280
Find it here because it's a
it's.

1440
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:09,840
A good one, but they based it on
we have an interest.

1441
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:14,720
We have the state has an
interest in making sure that

1442
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:17,640
there's no such thing as
polygamy because polygamy is

1443
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:20,360
just plain wrong.
It's just, it's just plain

1444
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:23,840
wrong.
And if you have polygamy, you

1445
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:27,600
are taking things backward.
And it's based on, and it was

1446
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:31,440
based on racism.
Polygamy is a holdover from the

1447
01:22:31,480 --> 01:22:35,120
Oriental racism.
We all know how inferior they

1448
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:37,080
are.
Again, let's look at the

1449
01:22:37,080 --> 01:22:41,200
politics.
Who is it that is building the

1450
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:45,320
transcontinental railroad?
It's the Chinese right?

1451
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:47,240
Who?
Is it that are the?

1452
01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:52,120
Orientals that might be invading
the United States, mongrelizing

1453
01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:56,720
our white people along with
those freed blacks, the Chinese.

1454
01:22:57,280 --> 01:23:00,800
It's the Orientals.
And now this group of Mormons

1455
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:03,080
wants to take us back to
Orientalism.

1456
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:06,240
I mean it.
There is a racial aspect to it

1457
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:10,400
as well that is amazing.
And the Reynolds court.

1458
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:14,760
Also said well and the state has
an interest in in making sure

1459
01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:18,960
that its people are are taking
care of the health, welfare and

1460
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:21,720
polygamy destroys all of that.
It destroys the sacred

1461
01:23:22,120 --> 01:23:25,760
institution of marriage.
So here's how it affected the

1462
01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:37,880
rest of the religious freedom in
the United States, they stated.

1463
01:23:38,480 --> 01:23:43,440
Let's see if I can find it.
They stated you can.

1464
01:23:43,480 --> 01:23:47,280
Essentially, you can believe
whatever you want.

1465
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:50,320
You have the religious freedom
to believe whatever you want,

1466
01:23:50,360 --> 01:23:52,800
but you can't act on it if we
decide.

1467
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:54,720
That what it is that you.
Believe is immoral.

1468
01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:57,800
You can't do anything about it.
Of course, that begs the

1469
01:23:57,800 --> 01:23:59,600
question, what kind of religious
freedom?

1470
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:02,600
Is that right?
Well, we have that same.

1471
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:10,120
Situation today you can believe
all you want that homosexuality.

1472
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:12,160
Is wrong.
But.

1473
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:14,440
If you decide to act.
On it by saying I'm not going to

1474
01:24:14,440 --> 01:24:18,720
come up with a wedding cake for
a gay couple.

1475
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:21,800
You can't act on that because
that's going to violate

1476
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:24,560
somebody's civil rights.
That's all coming out of the

1477
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:26,960
Reynolds case.
You can believe any damn thing

1478
01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:29,280
you want, but you cannot act on
it.

1479
01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:31,040
Interesting.
So.

1480
01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:41,120
The, so the Reynolds case has,
has impact and I would say

1481
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:48,080
negative impact on anyone who
would have moral qualms with,

1482
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:52,640
with gay marriage, right?
And, and I found that case about

1483
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:55,720
that Baker in Colorado
especially fascinating because

1484
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:58,760
he said, I'll, I'll bake the
cake, but you, you need to have

1485
01:24:58,760 --> 01:25:00,560
it decorated somewhere else,
right?

1486
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:05,360
And and it's interesting that
that same that same tool is

1487
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:09,240
used, continued continues to be.
Used to beat.

1488
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:15,040
People over the head, especially
people who have religious

1489
01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:19,040
objections or religious
convictions that go against the

1490
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:22,200
norm.
Well, and the question of course

1491
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:25,320
is.
Who determines the norm, right?

1492
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:26,880
Who is it that's?
Going to make the.

1493
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:32,560
Decision as to what is the norm
and all of that gets down to the

1494
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:35,680
boogeyman politics.
It always gets down to politics.

1495
01:25:36,160 --> 01:25:37,520
He can read you this part from
here.

1496
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:43,520
Polygamy has always been odious
among the northern and Western

1497
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:48,160
nations of Europe, and until the
establishment of the Mormon

1498
01:25:48,160 --> 01:25:52,840
Church, was almost exclusively a
feature of the life of Asiatic

1499
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:57,840
and of African people.
We got polygamy in.

1500
01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:00,160
Africa.
We got polygamy among the

1501
01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:03,160
Asiatics, obviously.
These.

1502
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:06,880
Aren't Americans, obviously
these aren't even Northern and

1503
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:11,880
Western European values.
There's a whole racial aspect to

1504
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:15,480
that.
Marriage while from its very.

1505
01:26:15,480 --> 01:26:18,640
Nature is a sacred obligation.
It never is.

1506
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:24,120
Nevertheless, in civilized
nations a civil contract and is

1507
01:26:24,120 --> 01:26:28,520
usually regulated by law upon
its society may be said to be

1508
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:31,920
built and out of its fruit
spring social relations and

1509
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:35,120
social obligations and duties
which government is necessarily

1510
01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:38,680
required to deal with.
In fact, according as monogamous

1511
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:41,600
or polygamous marriages are
allowed, do we find the

1512
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:44,360
principles on which the
government of the people to a

1513
01:26:44,360 --> 01:26:48,560
greater or less extent rests?
Basically, it gets down to this.

1514
01:26:49,160 --> 01:26:54,120
They're saying the state has an
interest in marriage and if we.

1515
01:26:54,120 --> 01:26:56,200
As the state.
Make a determination as to what

1516
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:59,360
marriage is moral and what
marriage is not moral.

1517
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:02,600
You got to follow us.
And if you think that it's

1518
01:27:02,600 --> 01:27:04,720
something that God told you,
well, you can believe that all

1519
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:06,160
you want, but you can't do
anything about it.

1520
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:10,800
It's, it's a very, very
difficult decision to come down

1521
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:13,560
with.
And then this is OK, let me,

1522
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:21,640
I'll read this.
Laws are made for the government

1523
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:23,400
of.
Actions, and while they cannot

1524
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:26,560
interfere with mere religious
belief and opinions, they may

1525
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:29,400
with practices.
Suppose one believed that human

1526
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:33,080
sacrifices were a necessary part
of religious worship, would it

1527
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:35,880
be seriously contended that the
civil government under which he

1528
01:27:35,880 --> 01:27:38,600
lived could not interfere to
prevent such a sacrifice?

1529
01:27:39,320 --> 01:27:41,960
Or if a wife religiously
believed it was her duty to burn

1530
01:27:41,960 --> 01:27:45,440
herself upon the funeral pile of
her dead husband, would it be

1531
01:27:45,440 --> 01:27:47,640
beyond the power of civil
government to prevent her

1532
01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:49,880
carrying her belief into
practice?

1533
01:27:50,480 --> 01:27:53,720
So here is a law of the
organization of society under

1534
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,840
the exclusive dominion of the
United States.

1535
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:59,280
It is provided that plural
marriages shall not be allowed.

1536
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:01,200
Can a man excuse?
His.

1537
01:28:01,200 --> 01:28:03,960
Practices to the contrary
because of his religious belief.

1538
01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:08,560
Here's the kicker.
To permit this would be to make

1539
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:11,280
the professed doctrines of
religious beliefs superior to

1540
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:15,200
the law of the land, and in
effect, to permit every citizen

1541
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:19,320
to become a law and to himself.
Government could exist only in

1542
01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:22,600
name under such circumstances.
Well.

1543
01:28:25,840 --> 01:28:27,360
One of the arguments that was
made.

1544
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:33,080
To the Randall's court is wait a
second, suppose that one

1545
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:37,960
believes that human sacrifice is
a necessary part we don't have a

1546
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:42,640
long history throughout all of
recorded history of human

1547
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:46,200
sacrifices being part of
religious belief, but we do with

1548
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:49,400
polygamy, there are.
Far more years of.

1549
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:52,240
Polygamy than there ever have
been of monogamy.

1550
01:28:53,200 --> 01:28:56,240
This is a tradition.
We can't just simply say this is

1551
01:28:56,240 --> 01:29:02,800
something that is exclusive to
Africa or to Asia.

1552
01:29:04,120 --> 01:29:08,080
This is something that was
practiced by the very founders

1553
01:29:08,080 --> 01:29:11,680
of the religions on which you
are basing all of your law in

1554
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:15,280
the United States.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Old

1555
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:17,680
Testament, New Testament.
It's there.

1556
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:22,280
And of course said Nope.
Sorry, no, we're not going to go

1557
01:29:22,280 --> 01:29:23,360
there.
We're not going to do that.

1558
01:29:25,480 --> 01:29:28,920
That has been.
A difficult issue ever since,

1559
01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:32,240
because if you simply say you
can believe what you want but

1560
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:34,880
you can't act on it, then what
does that?

1561
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:36,560
Leave you as far as.
Your religious belief is

1562
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:39,680
concerned as far as actions are
concerned.

1563
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:44,840
Basically it puts it puts the
laws of man in conflict with the

1564
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:47,240
laws of God.
Now we were talking about.

1565
01:29:47,240 --> 01:29:49,920
What happened?
Back in the days of Joseph

1566
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:52,560
Smith.
What do you do when there's a

1567
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:54,480
conflict?
Between the laws of God and the

1568
01:29:54,480 --> 01:29:58,760
laws of man.
Well, I think David Henry

1569
01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:00,640
Thoreau would say civil
disobedience.

1570
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:04,920
I'll take my lumps.
I if, if, if it means I got to

1571
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:08,040
go to jail under the laws of the
of the state, I will do it

1572
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:12,080
because the law of God is
superior and that actually.

1573
01:30:12,080 --> 01:30:13,640
Was the position.
That the Mormon stood.

1574
01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:16,880
You've probably seen those
pictures of these guys.

1575
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:21,920
You've got George Buchanan, who
was one of the first Presidency

1576
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:25,440
and he's in his striped uniform
there in, in the Utah State

1577
01:30:25,440 --> 01:30:27,440
Prison.
It's down on, well, it used to

1578
01:30:27,440 --> 01:30:30,120
be around Sugar House about 21st
South in Salt Lake City.

1579
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:33,000
And he's surrounded by all of
these priesthood brethren.

1580
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:36,920
They've all been arrested for
cohabitation and they're all

1581
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:38,360
saying, well, you can convict
me.

1582
01:30:38,480 --> 01:30:41,520
I'll go do my time, but I'm
still going to be a polygamist.

1583
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:43,960
You can't make me not be a
polygamist.

1584
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:48,320
And that's the question, of
course, that ultimately gets

1585
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:50,880
down to the matters of
conscience and just how much

1586
01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:56,560
courage do you have to say if a
law is immoral or if it is

1587
01:30:56,560 --> 01:31:00,400
violative of the law of God?
I'm going to violate that law.

1588
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:04,160
And it is, it's a difficult
thing.

1589
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:06,760
I mean, we found that also in
the civil rights era in the

1590
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:10,960
1950s, Nineteen 60s where Martin
Luther King, they would they

1591
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:13,520
would impose some sort of
injunction on him.

1592
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:16,680
You can't, you can't March here.
He'd say, yes, I can.

1593
01:31:17,480 --> 01:31:22,160
I'm a man, I'm a human being.
And I, you know, you throw me in

1594
01:31:22,160 --> 01:31:27,120
jail and did there's a very
awful picture of when they took

1595
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:29,600
Martin Luther King to jail and
they're just smashing his face

1596
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:31,960
against the the desk as they
arrest him.

1597
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:36,240
And he his whole thing was I'll
pay the price.

1598
01:31:37,320 --> 01:31:39,720
I because I believe that the
laws of God.

1599
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:42,520
Are greater than I was going to
say.

1600
01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:46,680
Trump but I don't want to go
there this this year, but they

1601
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:48,800
are greater than the laws of
man.

1602
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:51,320
So that's that's one of the
issues.

1603
01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:56,040
So outcomes go ahead real quick
I I find.

1604
01:31:56,040 --> 01:31:59,920
The argument that that they make
there that you know, well, what

1605
01:31:59,920 --> 01:32:03,360
if someone thinks that human
sacrifice is, is a religious

1606
01:32:03,360 --> 01:32:06,040
right?
Well, I, I think there was a

1607
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:08,480
really good argument.
I don't know who who Reynolds

1608
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:11,600
attorney was, but I think the
argument would have been, look,

1609
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:14,360
we got it.
We we have a whole section of

1610
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:18,440
our holy books that talks about
how heaven inspired the

1611
01:32:18,440 --> 01:32:22,160
Constitution is.
And that would never take place

1612
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:25,720
because you're violating the
rights of another person.

1613
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:28,360
Right.
And I find that argument to be

1614
01:32:28,360 --> 01:32:33,000
really disingenuous and really
ill founded that that they put

1615
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:35,680
forward about well, gosh, you're
gonna you're gonna allow

1616
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:36,760
polygamy.
What's next?

1617
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:39,240
Human sacrifice it, it doesn't
hold water.

1618
01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:41,880
Was there a push back against
this somehow?

1619
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:48,720
The answer is sort of.
Let me tell you what I mean by

1620
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:51,400
then.
I think that it was seen

1621
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:55,280
generally.
As a political ploy as many

1622
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:58,760
Supreme Court cases are right.
There are a few people that set

1623
01:32:58,760 --> 01:33:00,680
back and said wait a second,
what are you, what are you

1624
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:03,000
talking about?
I mean these are the most moral

1625
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:05,120
people on earth.
I mean, you don't have

1626
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:08,480
prostitution in Salt Lake City,
except among the non Mormons.

1627
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:11,960
The Mormons don't have this
issue.

1628
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:13,560
You're not going to find a more
moral people.

1629
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:16,680
What do you what?
Why would you pick on these

1630
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:18,320
people because of their
religious beliefs?

1631
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:22,440
But as I said, look at the
politics always behind what's.

1632
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:26,560
And that's always the issue you.
Need to look behind it, the

1633
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:29,440
politics.
When we're looking at any of our

1634
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:34,760
current issues, things go to the
Supreme Court, gay marriage,

1635
01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:44,040
homosexual acts.
The abortion issues, all of.

1636
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:47,880
These things we can talk about
all of these different kind of

1637
01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:50,960
highfalutin principles of, you
know, here's, you know, we're

1638
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:53,400
going to found these decisions
on this principle or that

1639
01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:55,640
principle.
But the one thing that I learned

1640
01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:59,320
in law school is that principles
are basically just hooks for you

1641
01:33:59,320 --> 01:34:04,080
to hang your particular case on
and.

1642
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:06,280
Many.
Of the times when you have

1643
01:34:06,280 --> 01:34:09,680
something in front of the
Supreme Court, the principle is

1644
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:14,280
something that they hang the
politics on politics of abortion

1645
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:20,600
are not based on principle so
much as they are on the

1646
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:24,240
politics.
And you know most of the time

1647
01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:27,080
we're just saying to ourselves a
lot of these issues that are up

1648
01:34:27,080 --> 01:34:29,440
in front of the Supreme Court
that are supposedly based on

1649
01:34:29,440 --> 01:34:32,760
principle, they re ought to be
taken care of by a legislature.

1650
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:37,640
But the problem that we have is
if you happen to be part of a an

1651
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:42,640
unpopular group such as the
Mormons were then, or a group

1652
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:45,840
that could be a threat
politically to another group,

1653
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:50,560
then you're going to hang the
argument on principle, but the

1654
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:53,360
underlying reason for it is
going to be political.

1655
01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:55,440
Got you.
All right.

1656
01:34:56,440 --> 01:35:01,920
Well, right after that, after
the Reynolds case came out, then

1657
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:07,680
all hell broke loose and there
was the Edmunds law, the Edmunds

1658
01:35:07,680 --> 01:35:11,200
Act, Edmunds Tucker, right?
Well, we're going to get to

1659
01:35:11,200 --> 01:35:13,800
Edmunds.
Tucker, that's the there was

1660
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:17,320
first the Edmunds Act and then
everything went to hell really

1661
01:35:17,320 --> 01:35:19,080
bad.
The Edmunds Tucker Act came in

1662
01:35:19,680 --> 01:35:26,560
in 18 in 1882.
George Buchanan is going to be.

1663
01:35:26,720 --> 01:35:29,720
He's going to go to Congress and
he's denied a scene in the House

1664
01:35:29,720 --> 01:35:33,280
of Representatives because he's
a polygamist and.

1665
01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:36,880
Then the Edmunds.
Act comes in and it amends the

1666
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:39,280
moral Act and here are the
amendments.

1667
01:35:39,640 --> 01:35:43,360
It made polygamy a felony, the
very act of.

1668
01:35:43,360 --> 01:35:44,520
Polygamy was a.
Felony.

1669
01:35:44,840 --> 01:35:48,960
But it got worse than that.
It also disenfranchised

1670
01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:50,480
polygamous.
They couldn't vote.

1671
01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:54,320
It declared them unable to hold
public office.

1672
01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:59,040
It disqualified any person who
believed in the principle of

1673
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:02,000
polygamy from jury duty.
Remember, they said you can

1674
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:04,560
believe in anything you want,
you just can't act on it.

1675
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:08,640
But if you even believe in
polygamy, you can't be.

1676
01:36:10,240 --> 01:36:13,000
Why?
Because if you're on a jury and

1677
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:18,440
somebody gets gets nailed for
being in polygamy, you're likely

1678
01:36:18,440 --> 01:36:21,240
to quit that guy.
So if you believe in it at all,

1679
01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:26,040
you can't even be on a jury.
It declared polygamy a felony.

1680
01:36:26,440 --> 01:36:28,920
It defy it.
And then here's the thing.

1681
01:36:28,920 --> 01:36:33,880
It defines polygamous living as
unlawful cohabitation.

1682
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:41,240
It deprives Mormons.
On the basis of their religion

1683
01:36:42,440 --> 01:36:44,080
from.
Having a jury.

1684
01:36:44,080 --> 01:36:48,080
Trial, which is guaranteed
under, I think it's the 6th

1685
01:36:48,080 --> 01:36:52,000
Amendment for the Constitution.
It just came in and just ripped

1686
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:57,680
everything to shreds.
And the other thing was it also

1687
01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:03,640
said that the Mormons could only
well, if they said any religion

1688
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:09,880
in the territories cannot own
more than $50,000 worth of

1689
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:12,040
property.
Now there was a big.

1690
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:16,320
To do about that, it was.
Like, wait a second, New Mexico

1691
01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:20,960
is a territory and the Catholics
have got a lot more than

1692
01:37:20,960 --> 01:37:22,960
$50,000.
They've made an exception for

1693
01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:24,720
the Catholics, but they kept the
Mormons in.

1694
01:37:26,960 --> 01:37:29,680
Of course they did.
That's that's the way that went.

1695
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:32,960
Down and so and.
It seems.

1696
01:37:32,960 --> 01:37:34,360
It's it's.
Interesting, right?

1697
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:38,880
Because the the the Edmunds Act
says you can't hold public

1698
01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:41,120
office.
You can't even be on jury duty.

1699
01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:43,960
In some ways, it feels like
they're trying to politically

1700
01:37:43,960 --> 01:37:47,800
castrate any Mormon within Utah,
right?

1701
01:37:48,480 --> 01:37:50,680
Absolutely.
And and I can almost.

1702
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:53,960
Kind of start to see the picture
develop in their heads, which is

1703
01:37:55,320 --> 01:37:59,560
unlike what Longshanks did in
Scotland where he tried to out,

1704
01:37:59,640 --> 01:38:03,640
you know, prima nocta and that
sort of thing where he would

1705
01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:07,400
essentially breed out the Scots.
This time they're just saying

1706
01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:09,960
we'll just make life so
difficult for him that they'll

1707
01:38:09,960 --> 01:38:12,800
bend the knee and they will
assimilate.

1708
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:15,320
Is that, is that a fair
assessment of that?

1709
01:38:15,760 --> 01:38:17,320
That is exactly right.
OK.

1710
01:38:17,920 --> 01:38:20,560
Yeah, yeah.
They're trying to basically.

1711
01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:23,240
Well, they're trying to force
people to have certain beliefs

1712
01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:27,960
if they're going to have any
kind of of civil rights at all.

1713
01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:31,680
It's a stupid way to act because
what's going to happen when

1714
01:38:31,680 --> 01:38:34,440
somebody is pressing down on you
and it gets down to a choice

1715
01:38:34,440 --> 01:38:37,840
between them and God?
God's going to win every time.

1716
01:38:39,200 --> 01:38:40,720
And So what?
Happens, you've got the.

1717
01:38:40,720 --> 01:38:43,560
Entire leadership of the LDS
church that goes into hiding.

1718
01:38:44,480 --> 01:38:47,680
You've got John Taylor who goes
into hiding after after breaking

1719
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:50,000
young dies.
He dies in hiding.

1720
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:53,440
As a matter of fact, John Taylor
and John Taylor is saying I will

1721
01:38:53,440 --> 01:38:56,440
rot in hell before I am going to
to.

1722
01:38:57,960 --> 01:38:59,480
Do away with polygamy and the
church.

1723
01:38:59,960 --> 01:39:04,800
I would, I would rather cut off
my hand than sign a manifesto

1724
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:08,080
that does away with polygamy.
But then you've got also members

1725
01:39:08,080 --> 01:39:10,720
of the church that are going,
look, buddy, they're going to

1726
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:14,840
destroy us.
But and we can have a, a long

1727
01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:16,800
discussion about that.
But I understand you've done

1728
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:21,600
quite a bit of things in your in
your podcast about that history

1729
01:39:21,600 --> 01:39:28,400
and John W Taylor.
John Taylor, the 1886 suppose a

1730
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:32,560
revelation in I think it was
Centerville, UT.

1731
01:39:34,440 --> 01:39:37,640
But, and I'm not going to get
into that because that's that's

1732
01:39:37,640 --> 01:39:39,120
going to be a point of
contention between

1733
01:39:40,200 --> 01:39:43,920
fundamentalists and and LDS.
You're not going to jump into.

1734
01:39:44,720 --> 01:39:49,600
But in 1887 you have the Edmunds
Tucker Act and it is even worse.

1735
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:54,320
It disincorporates.
The church all together and just

1736
01:39:54,320 --> 01:39:57,480
says you can no longer be a
corporation, you can no longer

1737
01:39:57,480 --> 01:40:00,760
be a religious institution.
It grabs all the money out of

1738
01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:05,320
the perpetual immigration fund.
It requires any prospective

1739
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:11,400
voter to raise their hand and
make a declaration against

1740
01:40:11,400 --> 01:40:14,680
polygamy.
Oh, it gets worse.

1741
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:23,120
Up until then, one of.
The ideas had been among those

1742
01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:26,680
who were opposed to polygamy.
If you give women in Utah the

1743
01:40:26,680 --> 01:40:29,280
vote, they will vote themselves
out of this slavery.

1744
01:40:30,400 --> 01:40:33,120
They franchise the women they
could vote.

1745
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:36,680
Utah women could vote.
Wyoming, I think, was the very

1746
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:38,520
first one Idaho women could
vote.

1747
01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:40,400
They all voted in favor of
polygamy.

1748
01:40:41,720 --> 01:40:43,000
Tell you what.
Edmund Tucker.

1749
01:40:43,600 --> 01:40:46,280
Disenfranchising all women.
You can no longer vote.

1750
01:40:48,400 --> 01:40:54,240
Now it also says.
That the children of polygamous

1751
01:40:54,240 --> 01:40:58,160
marriages or what they called
under the Edmund Zucker Act

1752
01:40:58,520 --> 01:41:01,080
illegitimate children because
after all, they hadn't come from

1753
01:41:01,080 --> 01:41:04,200
a legitimate marriage, could not
inherit property.

1754
01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:10,760
I mean, basically all of the
freedoms had been taken away.

1755
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:15,520
Now this is what's interesting
about all of this.

1756
01:41:16,480 --> 01:41:20,640
You've if you if you're LDS or
if you grew up LDS, you've

1757
01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:24,960
probably seen that film strip
that I saw when I was a kid.

1758
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:28,680
It was the windows of heaven.
And you have Lorenzo Snow and

1759
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:30,440
the people aren't paying their
tithing.

1760
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:34,080
And he gets a revelation and he
says down in Saint George, if

1761
01:41:34,080 --> 01:41:36,400
you really want to do away with
this drought, you need to start

1762
01:41:36,400 --> 01:41:39,040
paying your tithing.
The question.

1763
01:41:39,040 --> 01:41:42,320
Is why weren't they?
Paying their tithing was it They

1764
01:41:42,320 --> 01:41:47,000
forgot they're they're, they're
trying to defend polygamy and

1765
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:48,680
they just forgot about that
particular thing.

1766
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:51,320
No, they weren't paying tithing
because they didn't want it all

1767
01:41:51,320 --> 01:41:53,680
to go to the federal government.
The government was.

1768
01:41:57,840 --> 01:42:01,400
And so it was.
Finally, when when things

1769
01:42:01,400 --> 01:42:05,840
loosened up about Edmunds
Tucker, that then it was like we

1770
01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:07,560
got to get some money in this
place.

1771
01:42:07,680 --> 01:42:11,280
This thing is falling apart.
Holy cow.

1772
01:42:11,280 --> 01:42:11,920
Yeah.
You know.

1773
01:42:11,920 --> 01:42:15,120
I never put that together, but
yeah, that would be right,

1774
01:42:15,120 --> 01:42:18,000
because under that time, any
money that would have went into

1775
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:20,840
the church coffers was going
right back into the government's

1776
01:42:20,840 --> 01:42:22,920
pocket.
Yeah.

1777
01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:26,000
Now remember.
During all of this time, you've

1778
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:31,720
got all of the politics.
You have politics going and

1779
01:42:32,960 --> 01:42:36,880
there's a big push among members
of the church, even among

1780
01:42:36,880 --> 01:42:40,120
members of the the councils of
the church, and there's a huge

1781
01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:44,160
division between them.
And you've got the John W Taylor

1782
01:42:44,160 --> 01:42:47,600
and you've got Matthias one
you've got.

1783
01:42:47,600 --> 01:42:48,920
Others on the other end and
you've got.

1784
01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:51,640
Wilford Woodruff in the middle,
who is just like, Oh my gosh, I

1785
01:42:51,640 --> 01:42:52,800
don't know what we're going to
do.

1786
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:58,080
And in the end, it's like, if
you will just go ahead and issue

1787
01:42:58,080 --> 01:43:01,560
a manifesto that polygamy is no
longer going to be part of it.

1788
01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:03,400
We'll, we'll let you join as a
state.

1789
01:43:04,480 --> 01:43:05,680
Now there's a.
Case that was.

1790
01:43:05,680 --> 01:43:10,800
Called the late Corporation of
the Church of Jesus Christ of

1791
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:14,840
Latter Day Saints late being in
the same way, you know, the late

1792
01:43:14,840 --> 01:43:17,520
Abraham Lincoln, the dead
corporation.

1793
01:43:17,720 --> 01:43:21,440
It's no longer incorporated
versus the United States.

1794
01:43:23,640 --> 01:43:25,920
It upholds the Edmunds.
Tucker Act.

1795
01:43:26,560 --> 01:43:30,680
And it's at that point that the
church capitulates and says, OK,

1796
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:32,160
we're going to issue a
manifesto.

1797
01:43:33,080 --> 01:43:35,640
And the manifesto came out.
Of course, there is a lot of

1798
01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:38,600
controversy as to whether it was
a revelation, whether there was

1799
01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:40,960
a revelation behind it.
It certainly as you look at it

1800
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:43,640
in the pearlrate price, there's
not anything that says thus

1801
01:43:43,640 --> 01:43:46,800
saith the Lord.
It essentially just says, here's

1802
01:43:46,800 --> 01:43:48,680
what it is that we're going to
do from this point forward.

1803
01:43:50,520 --> 01:43:55,680
And then six years later, as a
condition of being joining the

1804
01:43:55,680 --> 01:44:00,200
union in 1896, the Constitution
of the State of Utah, Article 3

1805
01:44:00,200 --> 01:44:05,440
says polygamous or plural
marriages are forever prohibited

1806
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:09,120
in Utah.
That was the price that it took

1807
01:44:09,320 --> 01:44:15,720
to join the union now.
I'm not going to go down the

1808
01:44:15,720 --> 01:44:18,200
long.
And interesting history of

1809
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:22,320
fundamentalist Mormonism at that
point, because I think anybody

1810
01:44:22,320 --> 01:44:24,520
who looks at the historical
record and certainly anybody who

1811
01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:27,880
even just looks at the
mainstream kind of history

1812
01:44:27,880 --> 01:44:31,560
that's come out from D Michael
Quinn about post manifesto

1813
01:44:31,560 --> 01:44:33,600
polygamy.
And anybody who just looks at

1814
01:44:33,600 --> 01:44:37,040
the fundamentalist movement
right now realizes that a

1815
01:44:37,040 --> 01:44:40,200
manifesto didn't stop it.
A second manifesto in 19 O 4

1816
01:44:40,200 --> 01:44:43,000
didn't stop it.
A third manifesto didn't stop

1817
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:46,520
it.
I mean, polygamy did not stop in

1818
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:51,560
19 O 4 14 years after the
manifesto.

1819
01:44:52,840 --> 01:44:55,720
There was an attempt.
Well, ultimately, it was a

1820
01:44:55,720 --> 01:45:00,480
successful attempt to seat Reed
Smoot, who was not a polygamist

1821
01:45:00,480 --> 01:45:03,840
but who was a member of the
Council of the 12 Apostles as a

1822
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:07,680
senator from Utah.
And there was a long

1823
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:10,720
investigation.
There is a book that I have

1824
01:45:10,720 --> 01:45:12,320
read.
It's, I mean, if you really

1825
01:45:12,320 --> 01:45:15,160
want, if you have some trouble
getting to sleep some night,

1826
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:21,200
pick out, pick up just the
deposition testimony that was

1827
01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:25,160
taken in the Reed Smoot hearings
and you'll be in a coma in about

1828
01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:28,520
30 minutes.
Joseph F Smith, who was then the

1829
01:45:28,640 --> 01:45:30,400
president of the church,
testified.

1830
01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:35,200
They absolutely just crushed him
in the testimony that he gave.

1831
01:45:36,040 --> 01:45:37,800
It was like, well, I don't
remember this and I don't

1832
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:39,880
remember that.
And yes, I do have more than one

1833
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:43,960
wife.
He admitted that he 14 years

1834
01:45:43,960 --> 01:45:47,000
after the manifesto, but he
still had five wives, that he

1835
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:49,680
had fathered 11 children with
every single one of his wives,

1836
01:45:49,880 --> 01:45:51,640
every single one of his wives
had had children.

1837
01:45:53,360 --> 01:45:57,040
He distinguished between the law
of God and the rule of the

1838
01:45:57,040 --> 01:46:02,160
church, and that's kind of where
things ended up.

1839
01:46:03,400 --> 01:46:04,680
And then.
There's a whole bunch of.

1840
01:46:04,680 --> 01:46:07,920
Different cases that came down
as a result, and I want to talk

1841
01:46:07,920 --> 01:46:12,160
about those because they are
really, really interesting.

1842
01:46:17,520 --> 01:46:23,760
Every time up until even today,
every time that somebody has

1843
01:46:23,880 --> 01:46:27,880
made a claim that they are
entitled as a matter of

1844
01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:34,040
religious practice to enter into
polygamy, they've lost every

1845
01:46:34,040 --> 01:46:38,080
single time.
All right, I'm going to read you

1846
01:46:38,080 --> 01:46:44,600
about this case. 1946 Cleveland
versus the United States.

1847
01:46:45,400 --> 01:46:49,840
Darger versus the United States
Jessup during the United States.

1848
01:46:49,920 --> 01:46:52,920
No Jessup's a good
fundamentalist Mormon name.

1849
01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:57,600
Shout out to Moroni.
Lopez Jessup, one of one of my

1850
01:46:57,600 --> 01:47:01,400
Yep, dockstader versus the
United States.

1851
01:47:01,400 --> 01:47:03,920
Stubbs versus the United States.
Petty versus the United States.

1852
01:47:05,600 --> 01:47:07,000
Yeah, read you the the facts of
this.

1853
01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:08,360
Case.
I didn't even know that this

1854
01:47:08,360 --> 01:47:10,720
case existed until I was doing a
little research just a little

1855
01:47:10,720 --> 01:47:13,600
while ago.
Petitioners.

1856
01:47:13,720 --> 01:47:15,120
Yeah, this.
Is 1946.

1857
01:47:17,080 --> 01:47:20,000
Have you ever heard of the Mann?
Act No.

1858
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:22,840
You ever heard of Chuck Berry?
I know.

1859
01:47:22,840 --> 01:47:25,120
Chuck Berry, Chuck.
Berry Yeah, of course you've

1860
01:47:25,120 --> 01:47:25,920
heard.
Of Chuck Berry.

1861
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:30,680
I mean, you know Johnny B Goode,
Dude was A, was A.

1862
01:47:30,680 --> 01:47:32,560
Wizard on the guitar?
Yeah.

1863
01:47:32,920 --> 01:47:34,760
Johnny B.
Goode did some hard time in

1864
01:47:34,760 --> 01:47:36,640
prison for violation of the Man
Act.

1865
01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:40,200
Doing what?
Taking a woman across state

1866
01:47:40,200 --> 01:47:44,160
lines for immoral purposes.
That was the man.

1867
01:47:46,040 --> 01:47:49,480
Petitioners are members of A.
Formal of a Mormon sect known as

1868
01:47:49,480 --> 01:47:51,680
fundamentalists.
They not only believe in

1869
01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:54,760
polygamy, unlike other Mormons,
they practice it.

1870
01:47:56,400 --> 01:47:58,920
Each of these petitioners.
Except Stubbs has, in addition

1871
01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:03,320
to his lawful wife, one or more
plural wives each transported at

1872
01:48:03,320 --> 01:48:08,360
least one plural wife across
state lines for the purpose of

1873
01:48:08,360 --> 01:48:12,480
cohabiting with her or for the
purpose of aiding another member

1874
01:48:12,480 --> 01:48:17,280
of the cult in such a project.
So they crossed 8 lines so that

1875
01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:20,640
they can be with their
polygamous wives.

1876
01:48:21,800 --> 01:48:24,080
They were convicted of violating
the Man Act.

1877
01:48:26,000 --> 01:48:30,320
The ACT makes an offence the
transportation and Interstate

1878
01:48:30,320 --> 01:48:34,760
commerce of any woman or girl
for the purpose of prostitution

1879
01:48:34,760 --> 01:48:38,840
or debauchery or for any other
immoral purpose.

1880
01:48:39,800 --> 01:48:44,560
And they determined polygamy is
an immoral purpose.

1881
01:48:45,280 --> 01:48:46,680
Is this where the argument
comes?

1882
01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:51,600
In from a lot of people who who
are really like rabidly against

1883
01:48:51,880 --> 01:48:56,880
just not polygamy, but Mormonism
in general that there was human

1884
01:48:56,880 --> 01:48:59,800
trafficking involved with the
religion is this kind of where

1885
01:48:59,800 --> 01:49:01,680
they're they're basing some of
that off of.

1886
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:04,040
Well, one of the things.
That's interesting.

1887
01:49:04,040 --> 01:49:07,720
I mean, you'll find that right
now, even still that among the

1888
01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:11,360
arguments that is made against
polygamy, and then you try to

1889
01:49:11,360 --> 01:49:14,720
generalize them, you will take a
situation in which you will have

1890
01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:20,000
an underage girl who is raped by
in, in the name of of religion.

1891
01:49:20,560 --> 01:49:25,080
And from that you say every
polygamist rapes underage girls.

1892
01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:31,040
Well, there was nothing in this
particular case that said that

1893
01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:35,560
there was any other immoral act
other than just simply being

1894
01:49:35,560 --> 01:49:38,440
polygamously married.
There was no S there was no

1895
01:49:38,440 --> 01:49:40,000
argument about human
trafficking.

1896
01:49:40,440 --> 01:49:44,680
It was just if I go from Utah to
Arizona so that I can be with my

1897
01:49:44,680 --> 01:49:49,320
second wife, that's an immoral
purpose that I've just that was

1898
01:49:49,320 --> 01:49:52,400
just violated the man act and it
was upheld.

1899
01:49:54,080 --> 01:49:56,960
Listen to what it said the
organization.

1900
01:49:56,960 --> 01:49:58,400
Of a community for the spread
and.

1901
01:49:58,400 --> 01:50:00,000
Practice of polygamy.
Is in a.

1902
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:05,040
Measure a return to barbarism.
It is contrary to the spirit of

1903
01:50:05,040 --> 01:50:08,440
Christianity and of the
civilization which Christianity

1904
01:50:08,440 --> 01:50:10,480
has produced in the Western
world.

1905
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:14,600
Polygamy is a practice with far
more pervasive influence in

1906
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:18,040
society than the casual,
isolated transgressions involved

1907
01:50:18,040 --> 01:50:20,600
in the Caminetti case.
And that's a That was a human

1908
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:23,480
trafficking case.
The establishment or maintenance

1909
01:50:23,480 --> 01:50:26,480
of polygamous households is a
notorious example of

1910
01:50:26,480 --> 01:50:30,720
promiscuity.
That was the holy.

1911
01:50:31,960 --> 01:50:37,600
Of the US Supreme Court in. 1946
Now here's what's interesting.

1912
01:50:38,160 --> 01:50:41,840
There was a dissent and I don't
know how well.

1913
01:50:41,920 --> 01:50:44,800
Let's just say for your.
For your for your readers or for

1914
01:50:44,800 --> 01:50:48,600
your listeners, how this works
when there is an appellate

1915
01:50:48,600 --> 01:50:52,280
court, there are nine members of
the US Supreme Court and there

1916
01:50:52,280 --> 01:50:56,200
will be a majority opinion, but
there may be those on the on the

1917
01:50:56,200 --> 01:50:58,760
Supreme Court who disagree with
that majority opinion and they

1918
01:50:58,760 --> 01:51:02,960
will write a dissenting opinion.
If you have a unanimous court,

1919
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:06,240
then everybody agrees.
But in this case, you had a

1920
01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:09,040
dissent and it went to the very
issue.

1921
01:51:09,040 --> 01:51:11,400
Now, this is a justice by the
name of Murphy, who I'd never

1922
01:51:11,400 --> 01:51:13,440
heard of before.
He's not one of those that you

1923
01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:17,240
read about when you're in law
school, but.

1924
01:51:19,520 --> 01:51:24,240
He says basically.
There is no basis in fact for

1925
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:27,800
including polygamy within the
phrase, any other immoral

1926
01:51:27,800 --> 01:51:31,400
purpose as used in the statute,
he says.

1927
01:51:31,760 --> 01:51:35,360
It takes no elaboration to point
out that marriage, even when it

1928
01:51:35,360 --> 01:51:38,720
occurs in a form of which we
disapprove, is not to be

1929
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:43,520
compared with prostitution or
debauchery or other immoralities

1930
01:51:43,520 --> 01:51:46,240
of that character.
In other words, if they're

1931
01:51:46,240 --> 01:51:49,600
married and we just don't like
it, we can't say that it's

1932
01:51:49,600 --> 01:51:52,440
barbaric.
We can't say it into

1933
01:51:52,440 --> 01:51:54,680
prostitution.
We can't say that it's

1934
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:58,320
debauchery.
All we can say is we don't like

1935
01:51:58,320 --> 01:52:01,080
it.
Well, that's not enough of a

1936
01:52:01,080 --> 01:52:05,200
basis to send somebody to prison
for violation of the Man Act.

1937
01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:08,480
Because if we come to the point
where it's not a matter of

1938
01:52:08,480 --> 01:52:12,360
principle anymore, it's a matter
of policy, then whatever you can

1939
01:52:12,360 --> 01:52:17,440
get a majority of people to not
like, that's what it is that's

1940
01:52:17,440 --> 01:52:20,560
going to nail you and in this.
Case, I mean, we'll talk about

1941
01:52:20,560 --> 01:52:22,120
that A.
Little later when it talks

1942
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:26,040
about, you know, gay marriage,
well, it went from something

1943
01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:29,280
that was not liked to now
something that is.

1944
01:52:29,280 --> 01:52:32,200
I don't know if we'd say that
it's liked, but it is accepted.

1945
01:52:32,760 --> 01:52:37,520
And now if you are, if you were
to take somebody across state

1946
01:52:37,520 --> 01:52:41,800
line so that you could
participate in an anti-gay

1947
01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:46,280
rally, who knows, that might be
a violation of the man act.

1948
01:52:46,960 --> 01:52:51,960
We just don't know.
So we've got that case.

1949
01:52:52,280 --> 01:52:55,880
And that is an interesting case.
In the meantime, we have a, a

1950
01:52:55,880 --> 01:52:59,320
couple of cases that come down
and I, I referenced them in my,

1951
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:03,800
in the thing that I that I wrote
for the ABA and I don't know if

1952
01:53:03,880 --> 01:53:06,920
have you got to you put up show
notes.

1953
01:53:07,960 --> 01:53:10,760
Yeah, we can put up the show
notes after after we're done

1954
01:53:10,760 --> 01:53:12,600
recording if you can e-mail.
Me.

1955
01:53:12,600 --> 01:53:15,400
You might just want to put a
point out to me, right?

1956
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:17,040
Yeah, I did.
I did.

1957
01:53:17,240 --> 01:53:19,680
I'll put that in the show notes.
OK.

1958
01:53:20,320 --> 01:53:22,880
And there have been some
interesting cases that have come

1959
01:53:22,880 --> 01:53:25,400
down.
There have been a couple in Utah

1960
01:53:25,600 --> 01:53:27,720
there because of course, that's
where, you know, most

1961
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:29,560
polygamists live and that's
where it becomes an issue.

1962
01:53:30,120 --> 01:53:33,720
There was one that came up in
1984, Potter versus Murray City.

1963
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:39,600
Now Murray, of course, is one of
the It's a suburb of of Salt

1964
01:53:39,600 --> 01:53:42,080
Lake City.
And in that case.

1965
01:53:42,360 --> 01:53:47,040
You had a police officer who
kept it down on the on the down

1966
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:50,760
low, but he was a polygamist.
Somebody finds out, somebody

1967
01:53:50,760 --> 01:53:55,040
doesn't like it, they go after
him and say if he is intended to

1968
01:53:55,320 --> 01:53:58,080
be a police officer, who's going
to enforce the law?

1969
01:53:58,520 --> 01:54:03,960
Castro obey the law, he argued.
I have a right, a religious

1970
01:54:03,960 --> 01:54:09,120
right to be a polygamist.
You can't you can't interfere

1971
01:54:09,120 --> 01:54:11,080
with this.
Reynolds was decided wrong.

1972
01:54:11,240 --> 01:54:16,120
Now, this was a Utah State case.
And tell me if I'm running too

1973
01:54:16,120 --> 01:54:18,760
late as we go into this.
No, you're dude, we got all the

1974
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:22,520
time in the world, OK?
Well, let me explain a little

1975
01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:25,400
bit for your listeners who.
Who kind of need to understand a

1976
01:54:25,400 --> 01:54:28,280
little bit.
About how the systems work, we

1977
01:54:28,280 --> 01:54:31,360
have two different systems in
the court systems of the United

1978
01:54:31,360 --> 01:54:33,120
States.
One of them is the state system,

1979
01:54:33,800 --> 01:54:35,640
and each state has its own court
system.

1980
01:54:36,000 --> 01:54:38,040
And that's the ones where
criminal cases are.

1981
01:54:38,040 --> 01:54:39,800
That's where a lot of property
cases are.

1982
01:54:40,400 --> 01:54:43,800
And then you have the federal
system and there are state

1983
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:45,760
crimes and there are federal
crimes.

1984
01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:49,520
The each state has its own
police.

1985
01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:51,920
I mean, each municipality has
its own police force.

1986
01:54:51,920 --> 01:54:53,720
And then you will have a state
police force.

1987
01:54:53,720 --> 01:54:56,040
You'll have the Highway Patrol,
which is a state police force.

1988
01:54:56,760 --> 01:54:59,760
You have a federal police force,
which is the Federal Bureau of

1989
01:54:59,760 --> 01:55:02,840
Investigation.
OK, So you've got two different

1990
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:05,080
areas here.
So this was a state.

1991
01:55:05,080 --> 01:55:06,720
Case this.
Was a case that was brought in

1992
01:55:06,720 --> 01:55:10,040
Utah State court because they
claimed this man needs to be by

1993
01:55:10,040 --> 01:55:14,480
he's violating the Utah State
law by being a police officer

1994
01:55:15,560 --> 01:55:20,880
and violating the law.
He made the argument a it you

1995
01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:23,920
can't Oh wait, no, I'm sorry.
This was a this was a federal

1996
01:55:23,920 --> 01:55:26,880
case because he said I have a
religious right and religious

1997
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:29,600
rights usually are considered to
be federal rights.

1998
01:55:30,080 --> 01:55:31,960
I'll get to the state cases in a
minute.

1999
01:55:33,080 --> 01:55:37,200
So he says look.
There's no compelling.

2000
01:55:37,200 --> 01:55:41,440
State interest in making sure
that I am not married to more

2001
01:55:41,440 --> 01:55:46,560
than one wife.
It is they find against.

2002
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:47,880
Him in the District Court of
Utah.

2003
01:55:48,720 --> 01:55:53,360
And he appeals to the federal
district courts.

2004
01:55:54,200 --> 01:56:02,600
There are 13 federal districts.
There are eleven of those.

2005
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:05,280
Have to do with states, for
example the.

2006
01:56:05,520 --> 01:56:08,520
State of Utah is in the 10th
Circuit Court of Appeals.

2007
01:56:09,200 --> 01:56:11,400
California's in the 9th Circuit
Court of Appeals.

2008
01:56:11,400 --> 01:56:14,400
There is also a district,
there's a federal Court of

2009
01:56:14,400 --> 01:56:17,440
Appeals, and there's also a
District of Columbia Court of

2010
01:56:17,440 --> 01:56:20,400
Appeals.
Now, all of that is, I'll tell

2011
01:56:20,400 --> 01:56:22,400
you what happens there if you
lose.

2012
01:56:22,400 --> 01:56:24,520
In the district.
Court of Utah Federal District

2013
01:56:24,520 --> 01:56:26,640
Court, you appeal to the 10th
Circuit.

2014
01:56:27,000 --> 01:56:30,040
If you lose in the in the 10th
Circuit, you can appeal to the

2015
01:56:30,720 --> 01:56:33,800
Supreme Court and the Supreme
Court can either take it or not

2016
01:56:33,800 --> 01:56:35,720
take it.
Well, in this case, the 10th

2017
01:56:35,720 --> 01:56:43,760
Circuit took it and they said
the Reynolds case Reynolds.

2018
01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:47,520
It's it's 100.
It's over 100 years old is.

2019
01:56:47,520 --> 01:56:52,760
Still good law, and we are still
going to uphold the idea that.

2020
01:56:52,760 --> 01:56:56,480
Polygamy is a.
Social harm and therefore you

2021
01:56:56,480 --> 01:56:59,600
lose your job because you
believe in polygamy, because

2022
01:56:59,600 --> 01:57:05,480
you're polygamist.
Then.

2023
01:57:05,480 --> 01:57:08,960
We go to.
State versus green.

2024
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:10,760
Guy by the name of I'm trying
to.

2025
01:57:10,760 --> 01:57:13,560
Remember his first?
Name I think it's Tom Green and

2026
01:57:13,560 --> 01:57:19,320
he was a polygamist and he is
arrested in state court.

2027
01:57:20,040 --> 01:57:25,160
It's a state crime that he goes
after and they basically said

2028
01:57:27,680 --> 01:57:31,120
the anti bigamy law.
Is facially neutral.

2029
01:57:31,120 --> 01:57:32,440
It applies to.
Everybody.

2030
01:57:32,440 --> 01:57:38,120
It's not just focused toward
toward polygamous in toward the

2031
01:57:38,120 --> 01:57:42,240
fundamentalist.
And so it's a good law and you

2032
01:57:42,240 --> 01:57:44,960
are convicted of a of a
violation of the Makemy law

2033
01:57:46,080 --> 01:57:53,480
state case that was in 2004.
OK, so now we're getting up to

2034
01:57:53,480 --> 01:58:01,120
where we are state versus Holm
God by the name of Rodney Holm,

2035
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:07,920
2006.
He's a member of the FLDS and

2036
01:58:07,920 --> 01:58:12,200
it's it's kind of an ugly case.
Holmes convicted of bigamy and

2037
01:58:12,200 --> 01:58:15,680
unlawful sexual conduct with a
16 year old woman, his third

2038
01:58:15,680 --> 01:58:19,840
religious wife.
And they just, they didn't even,

2039
01:58:19,840 --> 01:58:21,960
they don't get into.
Green, they just said.

2040
01:58:22,560 --> 01:58:25,080
Sorry, you're convicted.
You're done.

2041
01:58:26,280 --> 01:58:28,840
Now one of the things that came
up was, well, wait a minute.

2042
01:58:29,520 --> 01:58:34,680
In the meantime.
By 2006, you have the case where

2043
01:58:35,280 --> 01:58:40,560
the homosexual the, the sodomy
laws in Texas that outlaw

2044
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:42,800
homosexual conduct had been
struck down.

2045
01:58:44,080 --> 01:58:46,200
And one of the things that
Holmes said was wait a minute.

2046
01:58:47,640 --> 01:58:50,040
Who are you to?
Regulate my sexual conduct with

2047
01:58:50,040 --> 01:58:54,040
anybody.
I mean they didn't even claim

2048
01:58:54,120 --> 01:58:55,480
child abuse here but.
Who?

2049
01:58:55,480 --> 01:58:57,720
Who are you to do?
That if homosexual's going to

2050
01:58:57,720 --> 01:59:02,560
have sex and and and the anti
sodomy laws are struck down, why

2051
01:59:02,560 --> 01:59:05,720
not the polygamy laws?
They just ignored that all

2052
01:59:05,720 --> 01:59:08,440
together.
They just said that's

2053
01:59:08,440 --> 01:59:10,400
homosexuality.
This is polygamy.

2054
01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:14,960
It's a messy case.
Yeah, hold on.

2055
01:59:16,040 --> 01:59:21,960
There's more.
I just want to say the amount of

2056
01:59:21,960 --> 01:59:24,520
guys in.
Fundamentalism that are taking.

2057
01:59:24,520 --> 01:59:26,760
Underage.
Brides, with the exception of a

2058
01:59:26,760 --> 01:59:31,360
few groups, is pretty much nil,
right?

2059
01:59:31,360 --> 01:59:32,720
It's not.
Happening these days.

2060
01:59:33,040 --> 01:59:37,600
By and large, because I know a
lot of fundamentalists and it's

2061
01:59:37,600 --> 01:59:41,160
something that quite frankly, as
a dad with daughters, I kept my

2062
01:59:41,160 --> 01:59:45,520
eye out for, right?
And I, I want to make it clear,

2063
01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:49,880
I'm not advocating for a 43 year
old guy to marry a 16 year old

2064
01:59:49,880 --> 01:59:53,000
girl, right?
I, I don't think that that is

2065
01:59:53,960 --> 01:59:57,520
definitely something that should
be done at all.

2066
01:59:57,840 --> 02:00:03,960
I think it's, it's morally
irreprehensible because this is

2067
02:00:03,960 --> 02:00:05,400
what happens.
We get beat.

2068
02:00:05,400 --> 02:00:07,520
With it later because of a
couple morons.

2069
02:00:07,880 --> 02:00:10,320
Quite frankly, right.
And I just wanted to put that

2070
02:00:10,320 --> 02:00:16,480
out there because, like I said,
99.9% of the guys I've met in

2071
02:00:16,480 --> 02:00:19,960
fundamentalism, and I've met a
lot, that crap just wouldn't

2072
02:00:19,960 --> 02:00:26,920
fly.
I don't want to.

2073
02:00:28,480 --> 02:00:36,000
Pick on any particular group,
but I will say this, the FLDS

2074
02:00:36,400 --> 02:00:40,320
have not done the Mormon
fundamentalist community any

2075
02:00:40,320 --> 02:00:45,200
favors in the things that have
ultimately.

2076
02:00:45,200 --> 02:00:49,200
Gone to court.
Warren Jeffs has not done

2077
02:00:49,200 --> 02:00:53,400
anybody any favors, because what
happens is every Mormon

2078
02:00:53,400 --> 02:00:57,440
fundamentalist of every stripe
is tarred with that particular

2079
02:00:57,440 --> 02:01:02,040
brush, and as a result we end up
with the kind.

2080
02:01:02,080 --> 02:01:04,760
Of.
Facebook posts that you get

2081
02:01:04,760 --> 02:01:10,000
where it's like child abuse,
bestiality, this.

2082
02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:10,720
This.
This.

2083
02:01:10,720 --> 02:01:12,280
That's what.
Gets thrown at the

2084
02:01:12,280 --> 02:01:14,440
fundamentalist, every
fundamentalist.

2085
02:01:15,240 --> 02:01:18,600
And I think that you are
probably right now I'm, I'm not

2086
02:01:18,600 --> 02:01:22,080
connected with the
fundamentalist community, but

2087
02:01:22,280 --> 02:01:27,800
just looking at it from the
legal standpoint, 99% of the bad

2088
02:01:27,800 --> 02:01:30,000
cases that come down.
Have come down.

2089
02:01:30,080 --> 02:01:34,600
As a result of the FLDS, that
just happens to be the the

2090
02:01:34,600 --> 02:01:36,920
truth.
This case.

2091
02:01:36,920 --> 02:01:40,720
Barlow versus Blackburn.
It's an Arizona case in 1990.

2092
02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:45,760
It was similar to the other one.
Barlow was actually a police

2093
02:01:45,760 --> 02:01:50,800
officer in Colorado City and
they stripped him and said the

2094
02:01:50,800 --> 02:01:53,120
guy believes in polygamy.
And again they.

2095
02:01:53,120 --> 02:01:58,080
Relied on the Reynolds case.
So up until now, Reynolds has

2096
02:01:58,080 --> 02:01:59,680
been good.
Law and then we.

2097
02:01:59,680 --> 02:02:05,520
Come up to one of my very
favorite cases and it has to do

2098
02:02:05,520 --> 02:02:11,760
with Cody Brown.
Now I have.

2099
02:02:12,040 --> 02:02:14,000
Not actually ever watched
Sister.

2100
02:02:14,000 --> 02:02:18,680
Wives, My wife used to watch it
and I got, I've got a

2101
02:02:18,680 --> 02:02:23,440
sister-in-law who can tell you
where every single one of his

2102
02:02:23,440 --> 02:02:26,240
wives is is and what they are
doing.

2103
02:02:26,440 --> 02:02:30,320
I mean, she just used to follow
it, you know, to phrase it

2104
02:02:30,600 --> 02:02:32,240
religiously.
She used to watch it all the

2105
02:02:32,240 --> 02:02:35,000
time.
Well, Cody Brown's situation was

2106
02:02:35,000 --> 02:02:36,560
interesting.
He was living in Lehigh, which

2107
02:02:36,560 --> 02:02:41,920
is in Utah County, Utah.
And you had the first episode of

2108
02:02:41,920 --> 02:02:46,280
Sister Wives that went on.
And of course, there seems to be

2109
02:02:46,280 --> 02:02:51,160
some sort of a fixation about
polygamy on some of these, these

2110
02:02:51,680 --> 02:02:53,520
cable channels.
You had that.

2111
02:02:53,520 --> 02:02:55,040
You had the case in which you
had.

2112
02:02:56,560 --> 02:02:58,600
Oh, guess there's been there's
been a couple of them.

2113
02:02:58,800 --> 02:03:00,960
There's one searching for such a
special wide.

2114
02:03:03,120 --> 02:03:06,800
Drew Briny, who is another
lawyer at well, former lawyer,

2115
02:03:07,400 --> 02:03:11,880
has podcast several times.
Yeah, I've I've corresponded

2116
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:12,200
with.
Him.

2117
02:03:12,200 --> 02:03:15,960
I don't know him personally.
But he he was the subject of one

2118
02:03:15,960 --> 02:03:19,760
of these one of these shows.
Well, as soon as the first

2119
02:03:19,760 --> 02:03:22,760
episode of Sister Wives comes
on, somebody calls up the Utah

2120
02:03:22,760 --> 02:03:25,480
County Attorney's office and
says, are you going to prosecute

2121
02:03:25,480 --> 02:03:31,560
this guy and the Utah?
County Attorney God by the name

2122
02:03:31,560 --> 02:03:34,760
of.
Jeffrey Buehman says, well,

2123
02:03:35,040 --> 02:03:37,400
maybe I might.
I might prosecute him for

2124
02:03:37,400 --> 02:03:42,440
pulling me, at which point Cody
Brown says I'm going to

2125
02:03:43,880 --> 02:03:51,560
challenge Utah's anti polygamy
law and it went in front of.

2126
02:03:52,080 --> 02:03:56,320
A judge by the name of.
Waddups, Clark Waddups, who in

2127
02:03:56,640 --> 02:04:01,600
2013 came up with an opinion
now.

2128
02:04:01,600 --> 02:04:03,400
Let me tell you about Judge
Waddups.

2129
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:06,080
Who I like quite a bit.
I like him a lot.

2130
02:04:08,360 --> 02:04:12,240
He was a George Bush appointee
who you would expect would be

2131
02:04:12,240 --> 02:04:16,240
fairly conservative, and he
struck down the law in Utah.

2132
02:04:16,640 --> 02:04:19,760
He said it is not, It is not
constitutional.

2133
02:04:20,480 --> 02:04:23,560
And he used several bases on it.
He said, first of all, Reynolds

2134
02:04:23,560 --> 02:04:26,840
was just simply wrong.
And if you look at it in light

2135
02:04:26,840 --> 02:04:29,920
of the current situation out
there, it just can't apply.

2136
02:04:30,480 --> 02:04:33,400
It's obviously discriminatory.
It makes no sense from a

2137
02:04:33,400 --> 02:04:37,120
principal standpoint.
He also said it's based on

2138
02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:40,760
racism and he referenced those
issues that I've mentioned

2139
02:04:40,760 --> 02:04:52,920
before and he struck it down and
the state of Utah took it up to

2140
02:04:53,440 --> 02:04:56,080
the 10th Circuit Court of.
Appeals the 10th.

2141
02:04:56,080 --> 02:05:00,200
Circuit Court of Appeals is
made-up of a number of judges,

2142
02:05:01,080 --> 02:05:03,400
and I can't remember how many
judges there are.

2143
02:05:03,400 --> 02:05:06,160
There's a lot of them.
There's like 15 judges in the on

2144
02:05:06,160 --> 02:05:07,240
the 10th Circuit Court of
Appeals.

2145
02:05:07,240 --> 02:05:11,000
And what they will do is they
will divide up different cases

2146
02:05:11,000 --> 02:05:16,640
for different panels.
One of the panels was one of

2147
02:05:16,640 --> 02:05:17,680
the.
Members of the panel was a guy

2148
02:05:17,680 --> 02:05:20,200
by the name.
Scott Matheson Scott Matheson is

2149
02:05:20,200 --> 02:05:23,680
the son of a former governor of
Utah.

2150
02:05:26,400 --> 02:05:29,440
Now I'm projecting.
Here my own opinion.

2151
02:05:30,560 --> 02:05:33,400
But I don't think the 10th
Circuit wanted to be the

2152
02:05:33,400 --> 02:05:37,560
district that overturned the
polygamy law in Utah.

2153
02:05:39,600 --> 02:05:42,560
They didn't go to the merits of
a case.

2154
02:05:43,200 --> 02:05:46,840
They didn't talk about Reynolds.
They didn't talk about whether

2155
02:05:46,840 --> 02:05:50,120
it was based on racism, whether
it was based on religious

2156
02:05:50,120 --> 02:05:53,360
discrimination.
They argued that there was no

2157
02:05:53,360 --> 02:05:55,800
standing on the part of Cody
Brown.

2158
02:05:56,040 --> 02:06:00,080
Let me tell you what that means.
In order for you to bring a

2159
02:06:00,080 --> 02:06:05,240
case, whether it is in state
court or in federal court, you

2160
02:06:05,240 --> 02:06:07,240
have to show that you have some
skin in the game.

2161
02:06:07,440 --> 02:06:11,520
You have to be able to show that
that is actually affecting you.

2162
02:06:13,120 --> 02:06:16,640
Well, Cody Brown said, of
course, I've got standing.

2163
02:06:17,240 --> 02:06:20,520
This guy said he would prosecute
me if he's threatening

2164
02:06:20,520 --> 02:06:23,280
prosecution.
I do have skin in the game.

2165
02:06:25,000 --> 02:06:28,480
Let me read what the 10th
Circuit Court of Appeals said.

2166
02:06:33,440 --> 02:06:40,400
The defendants in the case,
which were Buman but also Utah

2167
02:06:40,400 --> 02:06:45,360
County and I think the state of
Utah, made a motion for lack

2168
02:06:45,840 --> 02:06:48,080
motion to.
Dismiss for lack of standing.

2169
02:06:49,160 --> 02:06:52,200
Attached to the motion was a
declaration signed by Mr.

2170
02:06:52,200 --> 02:06:57,200
Shurtleff, who was the Utah
attorney general at the time, in

2171
02:06:57,200 --> 02:06:59,680
which he declared that his
office had a policy not to

2172
02:06:59,680 --> 02:07:05,440
prosecute polygamists under Utah
criminal bigamy statute just for

2173
02:07:05,440 --> 02:07:08,880
the sake of practicing polygamy.
They would only initiate

2174
02:07:08,880 --> 02:07:12,480
prosecutions against someone who
had committed child or spouse

2175
02:07:12,480 --> 02:07:15,320
abuse, domestic violence,
welfare fraud or some other

2176
02:07:15,320 --> 02:07:18,720
crime.
And he said my predecessors in

2177
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:20,680
recent memory.
Had followed that.

2178
02:07:20,680 --> 02:07:24,080
Policy.
So you've got the state coming

2179
02:07:24,080 --> 02:07:27,840
in and saying, well, he doesn't
have standing because we never

2180
02:07:27,840 --> 02:07:29,520
prosecute people just for
polygamy.

2181
02:07:29,520 --> 02:07:34,400
It has to be something else.
Defendants also attached the

2182
02:07:34,400 --> 02:07:36,600
declaration for Mr. Buehman.
Signed under.

2183
02:07:36,600 --> 02:07:39,920
Penalty of perjury.
And he said even though we don't

2184
02:07:39,920 --> 02:07:44,200
have a formal declared policy,
we've not we don't have any

2185
02:07:44,200 --> 02:07:47,160
recollection of ever having
prosecuted anyone for polygamy.

2186
02:07:47,240 --> 02:07:51,840
But he said he had not stated
publicly that he would or would

2187
02:07:51,840 --> 02:07:54,720
not prosecute the Browns.
So what he's basically saying is

2188
02:07:55,000 --> 02:07:57,480
we haven't prosecuted him yet,
but we might.

2189
02:07:58,160 --> 02:08:03,560
So standing, no standing.
Well, if you just use what it is

2190
02:08:03,560 --> 02:08:07,520
that they've said, Bueman is
still out there saying I might

2191
02:08:07,520 --> 02:08:10,120
prosecute you.
Well, if you might prosecute me,

2192
02:08:10,120 --> 02:08:11,160
I.
Think I've got standing.

2193
02:08:12,400 --> 02:08:17,920
Here's where everything falls.
Apart for them, they make

2194
02:08:17,920 --> 02:08:21,280
another.
Motion to dismiss after it was

2195
02:08:21,280 --> 02:08:24,120
clear that they.
Were going to lose, Buehman

2196
02:08:24,120 --> 02:08:30,000
files a second declaration in
which he announced he had now.

2197
02:08:30,000 --> 02:08:33,080
Adopted a formal office.
Policy regarding polygamy

2198
02:08:33,080 --> 02:08:38,360
prosecutions, which is the the
policy that had been adopted by

2199
02:08:38,360 --> 02:08:41,440
the Attorney General.
In other words, you know what,

2200
02:08:41,440 --> 02:08:43,320
we're going to lose.
I'm going to come up with a

2201
02:08:43,320 --> 02:08:45,480
declaration that says I'm not
going to, I'm not, I'm not going

2202
02:08:45,480 --> 02:08:47,440
to prosecute.
OK, Everybody, everybody clear

2203
02:08:47,440 --> 02:08:49,640
on this thing.
Not going to prosecute.

2204
02:08:50,160 --> 02:08:51,520
And therefore there's no
standing.

2205
02:08:52,200 --> 02:08:53,600
And that's what the 10th Circuit
said.

2206
02:08:54,000 --> 02:08:58,440
Well, if he said no harm, no
foul, OK, Brown's not going to

2207
02:08:58,440 --> 02:08:59,960
get prosecuted.
He has no standing.

2208
02:09:00,120 --> 02:09:06,480
Bump done overturned the the
entire win that Brown had won in

2209
02:09:06,480 --> 02:09:09,440
front of the District Court.
Right now that's where

2210
02:09:09,440 --> 02:09:12,680
everything stands.
No, but Utah essentially

2211
02:09:12,680 --> 02:09:15,000
decriminalized polygamy just a
few years.

2212
02:09:15,520 --> 02:09:18,840
OK, sorry.
That's what I want to talk about

2213
02:09:18,840 --> 02:09:26,720
next.
Right now, like it or not, and I

2214
02:09:26,720 --> 02:09:31,920
don't like it much, Reynolds is
still good Law I.

2215
02:09:31,920 --> 02:09:34,440
Think that if somebody were.
To make a facial challenge to.

2216
02:09:34,440 --> 02:09:38,640
It and we're actually heard by.
The the US Supreme Court, it

2217
02:09:38,640 --> 02:09:42,400
would have a good chance of
being overturned, but that that

2218
02:09:42,400 --> 02:09:45,760
case has not arisen yet.
So what does Utah do about it?

2219
02:09:46,480 --> 02:09:52,560
Well, due to the, the efforts of
a lot of a lot of polygamists, a

2220
02:09:52,560 --> 02:09:57,240
lot of fundamentalists and also
some other people, and it was

2221
02:09:57,240 --> 02:09:59,800
not opposed by the LDS church as
well.

2222
02:10:00,400 --> 02:10:04,480
There has been a
decriminalization of polygamy in

2223
02:10:04,480 --> 02:10:06,160
Utah.
Now let me tell you what that

2224
02:10:06,160 --> 02:10:10,120
means.
It's not legalization,

2225
02:10:10,680 --> 02:10:13,200
decriminalization.
Those are two different

2226
02:10:13,200 --> 02:10:17,120
concepts.
The legalization would say it's

2227
02:10:17,120 --> 02:10:22,920
legal to be a polygamist.
Decriminalization says if you're

2228
02:10:22,920 --> 02:10:25,520
a polygamist, we can write you a
traffic ticket.

2229
02:10:25,920 --> 02:10:31,640
It will be an infraction, you'll
get a $10.50 dollar fine and

2230
02:10:31,640 --> 02:10:33,680
that's it.
Now, is the state going to

2231
02:10:33,680 --> 02:10:36,480
actually start issuing traffic
tickets to polygamists?

2232
02:10:36,640 --> 02:10:39,160
No.
So for all intents and purposes,

2233
02:10:40,040 --> 02:10:43,080
they've done away with it.
And it's not on the basis of

2234
02:10:43,080 --> 02:10:44,760
polygamy, it's on the basis of
bigamy.

2235
02:10:45,120 --> 02:10:49,680
But they said but if you have
bigamy with again, child abuse,

2236
02:10:49,760 --> 02:10:53,520
spousal abuse, welfare fraud,
any of those things, then it

2237
02:10:53,520 --> 02:10:58,480
turns into a felony.
So how is it that they got a way

2238
02:10:58,480 --> 02:11:02,960
around that thing in the Utah
Constitution that says polygamy

2239
02:11:03,640 --> 02:11:06,480
will, you know, forever be
banned?

2240
02:11:07,160 --> 02:11:11,720
Well, it's kind of still banned.
It's still an infraction.

2241
02:11:11,720 --> 02:11:15,400
It's still kind of a criminal
case, but not really.

2242
02:11:15,800 --> 02:11:18,280
That's how we get around it.
Now, what about the other

2243
02:11:18,280 --> 02:11:19,840
states?
What about Missouri, for

2244
02:11:19,840 --> 02:11:21,520
example?
What about Ohio?

2245
02:11:22,000 --> 02:11:24,680
What about Arizona?
Have they decriminalized

2246
02:11:24,680 --> 02:11:25,960
polygamy?
They have not.

2247
02:11:26,960 --> 02:11:32,720
And so there is still, at least
in theory, the chance that

2248
02:11:32,720 --> 02:11:34,680
somebody could be prosecuted for
bigamy.

2249
02:11:35,040 --> 02:11:40,720
Now, I do not know the elements
of every bigamy statute in every

2250
02:11:40,720 --> 02:11:43,040
state.
I did look up the one in

2251
02:11:43,040 --> 02:11:44,480
Missouri.
I don't think that it would

2252
02:11:44,480 --> 02:11:48,000
apply to this particular
situation, but that's where a

2253
02:11:48,000 --> 02:11:50,040
court could decide.
That's not for me to decide.

2254
02:11:50,040 --> 02:11:54,000
I, I don't practice lying in
Missouri, although I have had a

2255
02:11:54,000 --> 02:11:57,960
couple of cases there.
So that's the state of the law

2256
02:11:57,960 --> 02:11:59,640
right now.
So the question.

2257
02:11:59,960 --> 02:12:02,440
That I think that many of.
Your listeners are are asking

2258
02:12:02,440 --> 02:12:08,920
themselves is after this very
long diatribe on my part, where

2259
02:12:08,920 --> 02:12:12,520
do things stand?
Well, it's not going to go away.

2260
02:12:13,920 --> 02:12:16,320
I mean it.
It is probably, I think

2261
02:12:16,320 --> 02:12:18,200
probably.
More common now.

2262
02:12:18,240 --> 02:12:21,640
Than it has ever been in the
United States, at least since

2263
02:12:21,640 --> 02:12:25,800
the manifesto.
Is it going to?

2264
02:12:25,800 --> 02:12:27,160
Are there going to be
prosecutions?

2265
02:12:27,160 --> 02:12:28,640
For polygamy, I.
Don't think so.

2266
02:12:28,640 --> 02:12:33,920
And I think, and I think here's
the reason why I think that any

2267
02:12:34,480 --> 02:12:37,320
state attorney.
General who reads.

2268
02:12:37,320 --> 02:12:41,160
The Reynolds decision is going
to have to say, in light of the

2269
02:12:41,160 --> 02:12:47,200
gay marriage cases, in light of
the sodomy cases, it's awfully

2270
02:12:47,200 --> 02:12:52,920
difficult to maintain that
polygamy is substantially

2271
02:12:52,920 --> 02:12:58,200
different from a legal principle
standpoint than they are now.

2272
02:12:58,280 --> 02:13:00,760
I'm going to give you another
little trimmer here and then

2273
02:13:00,760 --> 02:13:08,600
we'll quit.
Religious rights cases right now

2274
02:13:09,400 --> 02:13:12,960
are always in a state.
Of flux, you know.

2275
02:13:13,040 --> 02:13:15,120
Do you believe this?
Can you believe that?

2276
02:13:15,120 --> 02:13:17,040
Can you act in this way?
Can you not?

2277
02:13:17,760 --> 02:13:21,760
Most of the cases involving
religious cases have more to do

2278
02:13:21,760 --> 02:13:26,720
with property rights or liberty
rights or association rights.

2279
02:13:28,000 --> 02:13:31,440
The court doesn't want to jump
in usually to say what is a.

2280
02:13:31,680 --> 02:13:33,560
Valid.
Religious argument and what is

2281
02:13:33,560 --> 02:13:38,920
not, although they do say that
polygamy is actually a harm to

2282
02:13:38,920 --> 02:13:41,920
society, but.
They don't want.

2283
02:13:41,920 --> 02:13:45,200
To they don't want to they don't
want to come in and say if you

2284
02:13:45,200 --> 02:13:49,000
believe in God, that's wrong.
They're not going to get into

2285
02:13:49,000 --> 02:13:52,240
that.
If you believe that, you know,

2286
02:13:52,240 --> 02:13:54,080
If you believe in baptism by.
Immersion.

2287
02:13:54,120 --> 02:13:55,320
That's right.
Or that's wrong.

2288
02:13:55,960 --> 02:13:58,120
They're they're probably not
going to get into that.

2289
02:13:59,360 --> 02:14:01,680
The question then gets down to,
well, yeah, but what Can you

2290
02:14:01,680 --> 02:14:02,960
believe in?
What is it that, you know,

2291
02:14:03,440 --> 02:14:06,400
usually they get down to issues
of do I have liberty?

2292
02:14:06,400 --> 02:14:11,080
Do I have a liberty interest?
Now there's one interesting

2293
02:14:12,560 --> 02:14:17,160
principle that was the basis.
Of Roe versus Wade, which is the

2294
02:14:17,240 --> 02:14:20,360
abortion case, the back in the.
1970s it was just they

2295
02:14:20,360 --> 02:14:25,280
overturned and in that case I
mean I.

2296
02:14:25,280 --> 02:14:27,400
Argued this case when.
I was in law school.

2297
02:14:27,400 --> 02:14:30,360
If it just it had come out
within 10 years of when I was in

2298
02:14:30,360 --> 02:14:34,320
law school, and I think I was
the only person in the entire

2299
02:14:34,320 --> 02:14:36,320
classroom who.
Said that it was an.

2300
02:14:36,600 --> 02:14:41,200
Idiotic decision.
It came out and the basis of it

2301
02:14:41,200 --> 02:14:42,520
was.
You have a.

2302
02:14:42,520 --> 02:14:45,360
Right of privacy under the
Constitution.

2303
02:14:46,960 --> 02:14:52,200
Now the Constitution doesn't say
anything about privacy, but you

2304
02:14:52,200 --> 02:14:54,800
can sort they what they said was
there's a penumbra.

2305
02:14:54,880 --> 02:14:57,160
Which basically.
Is a big Latin word for

2306
02:14:57,160 --> 02:15:02,360
umbrella, and if you look at all
of the, especially all of the

2307
02:15:02,360 --> 02:15:04,640
Bill of Rights, you can sort of
see that there's a.

2308
02:15:04,640 --> 02:15:07,600
Right of privacy.
I mean, you have a right not to

2309
02:15:07,600 --> 02:15:11,320
have officers come storming into
your house without a warrant.

2310
02:15:11,720 --> 02:15:16,240
Well, that's privacy.
You have a right not to have to,

2311
02:15:16,240 --> 02:15:19,920
you know, you have a right to be
able to marry whoever you want.

2312
02:15:20,560 --> 02:15:23,200
That's a right of privacy.
And then they went on and said,

2313
02:15:23,960 --> 02:15:27,520
and you have a right to have an
abortion because that's between

2314
02:15:27,520 --> 02:15:29,480
you and your doctor.
And there are no other rights

2315
02:15:29,480 --> 02:15:33,680
that are involved.
Now I don't want to go down too

2316
02:15:33,680 --> 02:15:36,800
far down this road, but I said
well, there are other rights

2317
02:15:36,800 --> 02:15:38,560
involved.
There is the right of a child to

2318
02:15:38,560 --> 02:15:42,600
be born and that was my
position.

2319
02:15:42,600 --> 02:15:44,320
It was a very.
Unpopular position in law?

2320
02:15:44,320 --> 02:15:48,600
School and the other thing I
argued was Roe versus Wade is on

2321
02:15:48,600 --> 02:15:54,640
a collision course with itself
because they say there's there's

2322
02:15:54,640 --> 02:15:57,120
no state interest.
In the first three.

2323
02:15:58,040 --> 02:15:59,720
First three months.
The first trimester of a

2324
02:15:59,720 --> 02:16:02,000
pregnancy.
It's between a woman and a

2325
02:16:02,000 --> 02:16:05,040
doctor.
The 2nd trimester, the state

2326
02:16:05,040 --> 02:16:08,240
might have some interest and in
the third trimester the state

2327
02:16:08,240 --> 02:16:11,560
might be able to jump in.
But in no case did they ever say

2328
02:16:11,640 --> 02:16:13,360
the unborn child has any
interest.

2329
02:16:14,040 --> 02:16:17,800
But my argument in law school
now this is back in the 1980s

2330
02:16:17,800 --> 02:16:24,120
was well, listen, as medical
science progresses, the

2331
02:16:24,120 --> 02:16:29,080
viability of the child is going
to be further down what down the

2332
02:16:29,080 --> 02:16:30,800
road?
It could be 15 weeks, could be

2333
02:16:30,800 --> 02:16:34,400
20 weeks.
And at that point, does the

2334
02:16:34,400 --> 02:16:38,200
child if viability is the issue?
Doesn't it have some rights?

2335
02:16:38,200 --> 02:16:41,480
At that point, I mean, it's on a
collision course, because what's

2336
02:16:41,480 --> 02:16:44,480
happened is you said that
there's a constitutional right,

2337
02:16:44,840 --> 02:16:48,840
but that constitutional right is
based on current medicine, but

2338
02:16:48,840 --> 02:16:52,639
that medicine's gonna change.
Now, the only reason that I

2339
02:16:52,639 --> 02:16:54,480
bring that up is this right of
privacy.

2340
02:16:54,840 --> 02:16:58,639
The right of privacy was also
the basis of the sodomy laws.

2341
02:16:58,639 --> 02:17:01,799
They said your right of privacy
to do whatever you want in a

2342
02:17:01,799 --> 02:17:04,480
homosexual relationship is none
of the state's business.

2343
02:17:04,840 --> 02:17:07,760
You should get out of that.
The right of privacy had to do

2344
02:17:07,760 --> 02:17:09,600
with the gay marriage cases
saying.

2345
02:17:09,959 --> 02:17:12,600
Your right of privacy.
Your right to have association

2346
02:17:12,600 --> 02:17:15,559
with whoever it is that you want
and be married to them.

2347
02:17:15,559 --> 02:17:18,799
Legally, you have a right to do
that.

2348
02:17:20,040 --> 02:17:21,959
Now let's.
Also find that distinction.

2349
02:17:21,959 --> 02:17:24,080
Between the gay marriage.
Cases and the polygamy.

2350
02:17:24,080 --> 02:17:29,040
Cases in the gay marriage cases
they wanted to actually go get.

2351
02:17:29,040 --> 02:17:32,120
State sanction and.
Say I want to get married to my

2352
02:17:32,120 --> 02:17:36,080
boyfriend and we deserve a
marriage license.

2353
02:17:36,080 --> 02:17:37,440
We want to involve the state in
it.

2354
02:17:38,160 --> 02:17:41,680
The polygamy cases have been we
don't want the state involved in

2355
02:17:41,680 --> 02:17:45,480
this at all.
We'll get a A license for the

2356
02:17:45,480 --> 02:17:46,719
first marriage if that's what
you really.

2357
02:17:46,719 --> 02:17:49,080
Want but.
We don't even think that you

2358
02:17:49,080 --> 02:17:51,840
need it, a license for that.
I mean, there are a lot of

2359
02:17:51,840 --> 02:17:54,920
people who are unmarried, who
cohabit, who actually act as if

2360
02:17:54,920 --> 02:17:56,400
they're married.
In fact, that's why we have

2361
02:17:56,400 --> 02:17:59,719
common law marriage.
We don't want you to be involved

2362
02:17:59,719 --> 02:18:01,600
in this thing.
We just want to be able to.

2363
02:18:01,600 --> 02:18:04,559
Live the.
Way we want to, if we want to

2364
02:18:04,559 --> 02:18:07,719
have a second wife or a tenth
wife or whatever, because it's

2365
02:18:07,719 --> 02:18:12,360
a, a religious ceremony, just
stay out of our lives.

2366
02:18:14,080 --> 02:18:17,600
And yet we still have the courts
saying rebels are still good

2367
02:18:17,600 --> 02:18:19,559
law.
And regardless of how it is that

2368
02:18:19,559 --> 02:18:24,360
you get into this marital
relationship, it's a social

2369
02:18:24,520 --> 02:18:26,959
harm.
Now one more last.

2370
02:18:26,959 --> 02:18:31,920
Point here, if the right of
privacy extends to abortion and

2371
02:18:31,920 --> 02:18:37,040
it extends to homosexual acts
and it is sends to gay marriage,

2372
02:18:38,160 --> 02:18:42,520
the normal argument would be it
also extends to polygamous

2373
02:18:43,080 --> 02:18:46,200
marriage relationships.
That's the case that I think the

2374
02:18:46,200 --> 02:18:50,000
Supreme Court doesn't want to
hear because they don't want to

2375
02:18:50,000 --> 02:18:53,959
overturn rentals and because the
only people who are really

2376
02:18:53,959 --> 02:18:56,639
pushing it are fundamentalist
Mormons.

2377
02:18:56,639 --> 02:18:59,040
You're not even going to find
the LDS church that's going to

2378
02:18:59,040 --> 02:19:02,120
get behind it at this point.
I mean, you have done some

2379
02:19:02,120 --> 02:19:07,200
things in your podcast about the
evolution of the church's stance

2380
02:19:07,200 --> 02:19:09,760
with regard to polygamous
relationships, and I don't need

2381
02:19:09,760 --> 02:19:13,200
to go down that road.
There's one other aspect of it,

2382
02:19:13,200 --> 02:19:14,760
though.
And just look at it this way.

2383
02:19:15,959 --> 02:19:22,600
The bigamy statutes would say if
I am married and I have a

2384
02:19:22,600 --> 02:19:25,320
relationship with someone else.
Who is or?

2385
02:19:25,320 --> 02:19:28,879
Is not married, and I hold that
out as a marriage relationship.

2386
02:19:29,320 --> 02:19:30,680
I'm in violation of the bigamy
law.

2387
02:19:31,719 --> 02:19:35,400
That's the way it works.
There was a case that came down

2388
02:19:35,400 --> 02:19:38,040
in Utah.
Christine Durham, who was one of

2389
02:19:38,040 --> 02:19:40,480
the Utah Supreme Court justices,
said, well, wait a second.

2390
02:19:41,160 --> 02:19:42,440
What about somebody who's
married?

2391
02:19:42,719 --> 02:19:46,400
They don't get a divorce.
They just live separately and he

2392
02:19:46,400 --> 02:19:48,640
gets a girlfriend.
And for all intents and

2393
02:19:48,640 --> 02:19:51,880
purposes, they're a couple,
aren't they in violation of the

2394
02:19:51,880 --> 02:19:55,200
bigamy law?
And the answer came back, oh,

2395
02:19:55,200 --> 02:19:56,480
yeah.
But they didn't go get it

2396
02:19:56,480 --> 02:20:00,560
solemnized by by by past
religion.

2397
02:20:01,280 --> 02:20:02,800
They just decided to shack up
together.

2398
02:20:02,800 --> 02:20:07,400
That's completely different.
That's obvious religious

2399
02:20:07,400 --> 02:20:10,400
discrimination.
So right now, where do things

2400
02:20:10,400 --> 02:20:12,960
stand?
Things stand in sort of a state

2401
02:20:12,960 --> 02:20:17,800
of limbo and if somebody comes
to me as their lawyer and says,

2402
02:20:18,200 --> 02:20:19,760
do I have anything to worry
about?

2403
02:20:20,200 --> 02:20:23,680
The answer would generally be, I
don't think you've got much to

2404
02:20:23,680 --> 02:20:27,480
worry about.
But here again, you just got to

2405
02:20:27,480 --> 02:20:28,920
decide, am I going to take the
chance?

2406
02:20:29,120 --> 02:20:31,280
Actually, in everything that I
do as a lawyer, I'd just say

2407
02:20:31,280 --> 02:20:33,760
here's what the chances are if
you do this, here's what the

2408
02:20:33,760 --> 02:20:35,680
chances of this are going to
happen if you do this.

2409
02:20:35,680 --> 02:20:39,760
This are the chances right now
for me, for anybody coming in

2410
02:20:39,760 --> 02:20:44,720
and saying I I married another
woman, I went to the AUB or I'm.

2411
02:20:44,720 --> 02:20:48,480
A I'm a I'm.
A I'm an independent and I got

2412
02:20:48,480 --> 02:20:51,240
married, you know, my wife is 32
years old.

2413
02:20:51,440 --> 02:20:55,320
My second wife is 30 years old.
My my third wife is 28 years old

2414
02:20:55,680 --> 02:20:57,360
and we all got married in the
AUB.

2415
02:20:57,360 --> 02:20:59,480
Do I need to worry that
somebody's going to come and you

2416
02:20:59,480 --> 02:21:02,520
know, they're going to they're
going to knock me out of they're

2417
02:21:02,600 --> 02:21:05,120
they're going to arrest me for
for anti bigamy?

2418
02:21:05,120 --> 02:21:07,560
Yes, would be I think the chance
of that is point.

2419
02:21:07,560 --> 02:21:13,520
OOOOOOO 1% so because the courts
don't want to deal with it,

2420
02:21:13,520 --> 02:21:15,200
they.
Just don't want to deal with it.

2421
02:21:16,520 --> 02:21:19,480
I mean, there was a case that
came in in federal.

2422
02:21:19,480 --> 02:21:25,800
Court and it was actually a guy
from the FLDS and he went down

2423
02:21:25,800 --> 02:21:28,480
to the county clerk in Salt Lake
City and said I demand that you

2424
02:21:28,480 --> 02:21:29,280
give.
Me a marriage.

2425
02:21:29,280 --> 02:21:31,080
License so that I can get
married to my second wife.

2426
02:21:31,080 --> 02:21:34,880
And they said no, no, that that
that violates it.

2427
02:21:36,000 --> 02:21:40,720
But most of the time, people in
fundamentalist relationships,

2428
02:21:40,960 --> 02:21:43,360
they don't want the state.
Involved at all, they just want.

2429
02:21:43,360 --> 02:21:48,600
To be left alone so one of the
things that.

2430
02:21:48,600 --> 02:21:50,800
I know that you're big on is we
come out of the.

2431
02:21:50,800 --> 02:21:53,520
Shadows.
So the question is, if we come

2432
02:21:53,520 --> 02:21:56,760
out of the shadows, are we
liable to all go to jail?

2433
02:21:56,760 --> 02:22:00,000
The answer is I don't see much
chance of that ever happening.

2434
02:22:01,160 --> 02:22:04,360
And I honestly think that, like
it or not, whatever the

2435
02:22:04,360 --> 02:22:06,440
evangelical Christians or
anybody who doesn't like

2436
02:22:06,440 --> 02:22:11,720
Mormonism in any strike say they
don't like gay marriage anymore.

2437
02:22:11,720 --> 02:22:14,680
They like Mormons.
So I'm not really.

2438
02:22:14,680 --> 02:22:16,320
Sure.
That it's going to be a big

2439
02:22:16,320 --> 02:22:19,360
issue where they're going to
come out and say no, we need to,

2440
02:22:19,560 --> 02:22:22,120
we need to come up with a second
administrator act.

2441
02:22:22,440 --> 02:22:24,400
I just don't see that happening
in today's world.

2442
02:22:25,520 --> 02:22:27,440
So that's my spiel.
Any questions?

2443
02:22:28,080 --> 02:22:29,680
Yeah, I got.
I got a few here, sure.

2444
02:22:31,000 --> 02:22:33,600
So with.
These folks that have been.

2445
02:22:34,160 --> 02:22:39,480
Quite frankly.
Rattled right up in Davies

2446
02:22:39,480 --> 02:22:44,840
County in Missouri, Yeah.
Do they have any legal recourse

2447
02:22:44,840 --> 02:22:45,520
at this?
Point.

2448
02:22:47,800 --> 02:22:49,880
I'm going to give you the
lawyerly answer.

2449
02:22:50,800 --> 02:22:53,640
This is the answer to about.
9/10 of the cases that come into

2450
02:22:53,640 --> 02:22:58,480
my office, it depends.
Let me tell you what I mean by

2451
02:22:58,480 --> 02:23:02,880
that.
There is.

2452
02:23:03,280 --> 02:23:07,640
Obviously at least a perceived
threat against.

2453
02:23:07,640 --> 02:23:11,280
People on the basis of their
religion and it is a perceived

2454
02:23:11,280 --> 02:23:13,800
threat that comes from a state
after.

2455
02:23:14,480 --> 02:23:17,400
Now I'm going to give you a
bunch of legal gobbledygook that

2456
02:23:17,400 --> 02:23:19,480
will all hopefully come into
focus.

2457
02:23:22,280 --> 02:23:26,520
I used to work for.
The city attorney's office.

2458
02:23:26,520 --> 02:23:30,000
In Reno, NV and then I worked
for the City Attorney's office

2459
02:23:30,000 --> 02:23:32,960
in Salt Lake City, UT and I
defended a lot of police

2460
02:23:32,960 --> 02:23:38,200
officers under the law, under
the civil rights laws.

2461
02:23:39,040 --> 02:23:42,200
If a state.
Actor, someone who is, who is

2462
02:23:42,200 --> 02:23:46,000
acting in the magic words in the
law are under color of state

2463
02:23:46,000 --> 02:23:48,920
law.
So it could be a policeman, it

2464
02:23:48,920 --> 02:23:52,600
could be somebody who is a
doctor working in a in a

2465
02:23:52,960 --> 02:23:56,200
hospital, it could be a mayor,
it could be somebody who is

2466
02:23:56,200 --> 02:24:01,120
acting under color of state law
if they take away somebody's

2467
02:24:01,120 --> 02:24:03,040
civil rights.
There.

2468
02:24:03,040 --> 02:24:07,800
Is they can be sometimes be held
criminally liable, which was the

2469
02:24:07,800 --> 02:24:12,200
case with George Floyd.
He was prosecuted for violation

2470
02:24:12,200 --> 02:24:16,800
of Floyd's civil rights, killing
him, taking away his right to

2471
02:24:16,800 --> 02:24:22,280
life under color of state law.
And they could be subject to a

2472
02:24:22,280 --> 02:24:25,560
civil action.
And I used to defend cops who

2473
02:24:25,560 --> 02:24:27,040
were accused of beating somebody
up.

2474
02:24:27,480 --> 02:24:30,720
Well, you take away somebody's
right to liberty or you take

2475
02:24:30,720 --> 02:24:34,680
away their right to of, of
association or you you beat them

2476
02:24:34,680 --> 02:24:38,080
up.
That is somebody under color of

2477
02:24:38,080 --> 02:24:41,080
state law who is taking away
somebody's civil right.

2478
02:24:41,560 --> 02:24:43,360
And I would have to defend those
cases.

2479
02:24:43,360 --> 02:24:45,320
And sometimes I would win,
sometimes I would lose.

2480
02:24:46,840 --> 02:24:52,000
Now the question is, is a threat
enough to say that you're taking

2481
02:24:52,000 --> 02:24:58,280
away somebody's right?
The answer is maybe, I don't.

2482
02:24:58,280 --> 02:25:00,720
Know that a simple.
Threat will do it.

2483
02:25:01,240 --> 02:25:03,760
It certainly seems.
Defamatory and it certainly

2484
02:25:03,760 --> 02:25:07,000
seems focused on somebody
because of the basis of their

2485
02:25:07,000 --> 02:25:10,320
religion.
The defense will be well, no, I

2486
02:25:10,320 --> 02:25:13,040
was just talking generally and I
wasn't talking about these guys

2487
02:25:13,040 --> 02:25:14,960
necessarily.
I was just taking anybody who

2488
02:25:15,160 --> 02:25:20,120
believes in polygamy and child
abuse and bestiality and all

2489
02:25:20,120 --> 02:25:21,360
these terrible things that I
just said.

2490
02:25:22,000 --> 02:25:25,240
Well, you and I know that that's
focused on these particular

2491
02:25:25,240 --> 02:25:28,000
people.
Would that necessarily fly in

2492
02:25:28,000 --> 02:25:31,720
court?
Once again, depends on what 12

2493
02:25:31,720 --> 02:25:33,920
people who are too dumb to get.
Out of jury duty Think.

2494
02:25:34,440 --> 02:25:39,600
I don't know, but it seems to me
that they can certainly raise

2495
02:25:39,600 --> 02:25:42,920
the issue.
This smacks of religious

2496
02:25:42,920 --> 02:25:46,880
discrimination and it's got to
stop that.

2497
02:25:46,880 --> 02:25:51,560
I would they prevail if they
could hire a lawyer.

2498
02:25:51,560 --> 02:25:53,480
And the lawyer would say, yeah,
I'll take this all the.

2499
02:25:53,480 --> 02:25:59,200
Way to the US Supreme Court.
I don't know if they've been

2500
02:25:59,200 --> 02:26:03,840
arrested for nothing more than
polygamy or, you know, if, if,

2501
02:26:03,840 --> 02:26:07,280
if somebody came over to their
house and said, I think that you

2502
02:26:07,280 --> 02:26:09,720
are, you know, I'm, I'm going to
beat you up because you're a

2503
02:26:09,720 --> 02:26:12,360
polygamist.
You know, a cop takes out his

2504
02:26:12,360 --> 02:26:14,600
night stake and starts pounding
on people.

2505
02:26:15,280 --> 02:26:17,640
Yeah, you'd have a case.
You'd have a much stronger case.

2506
02:26:18,760 --> 02:26:21,960
OK, that's that's probably not
the best answer, but that's.

2507
02:26:22,200 --> 02:26:27,400
That's my lawyerly answer.
So so as an attorney, if if this

2508
02:26:27,400 --> 02:26:30,480
was me talking to.
You you know, I was the offended

2509
02:26:30,480 --> 02:26:32,520
party.
I was living in Davies County.

2510
02:26:33,960 --> 02:26:38,320
What would be your?
Your recommendations to?

2511
02:26:38,320 --> 02:26:40,000
Me Would it be to stop living
plural?

2512
02:26:40,000 --> 02:26:43,320
Marriage would it be to?
Move would it be to just go

2513
02:26:43,320 --> 02:26:45,720
about my business until
something worse happened?

2514
02:26:46,280 --> 02:26:47,480
What?
What's your thoughts?

2515
02:26:48,880 --> 02:26:51,280
Well, I certainly wouldn't tell
you to stop living plural

2516
02:26:51,280 --> 02:26:55,280
marriage, I mean.
That is a fundamental tenet of

2517
02:26:55,280 --> 02:26:57,960
your religious belief, and I
don't believe that somebody who

2518
02:26:57,960 --> 02:27:01,320
puts out a Facebook post has any
right to try and discourage you

2519
02:27:01,320 --> 02:27:04,360
from living a tenet of your
religious belief unless you're

2520
02:27:04,360 --> 02:27:07,480
taking away somebody's life,
liberty, or property as a result

2521
02:27:07,480 --> 02:27:09,520
of that.
I can't see that there's any

2522
02:27:09,560 --> 02:27:16,000
reason for that ever to happen.
Now if I felt threatened and as

2523
02:27:16,000 --> 02:27:18,000
I read that.
There was sort of an implied.

2524
02:27:18,000 --> 02:27:21,800
Threat, you know, if I felt
threatened, I'm not sure that I

2525
02:27:21,800 --> 02:27:26,360
would do anything except maybe
sit down with the sheriff or sit

2526
02:27:26,360 --> 02:27:30,440
down with somebody in the County
Council or say and just say

2527
02:27:30,440 --> 02:27:32,880
look, look at what's going on
here.

2528
02:27:32,880 --> 02:27:37,400
This has got to stop.
But because you you need it to

2529
02:27:37,400 --> 02:27:39,440
stop and that's.
Essentially what the Mormons

2530
02:27:39,440 --> 02:27:42,760
always.
Did they always just said, look,

2531
02:27:43,280 --> 02:27:47,440
if you'll just stop persecuting
us, we can all live together.

2532
02:27:48,160 --> 02:27:52,600
You don't get to beat up on us,
burn down our houses, rape our

2533
02:27:52,600 --> 02:27:56,560
women, throw us out of Missouri
because you don't like our

2534
02:27:56,560 --> 02:28:00,800
beliefs and you don't like the
fact that we have some political

2535
02:28:00,800 --> 02:28:03,760
power.
That was an instance in which

2536
02:28:03,760 --> 02:28:09,280
they truly were victims.
So would I tell you to stop

2537
02:28:09,280 --> 02:28:11,040
living your religion?
Absolutely not.

2538
02:28:11,960 --> 02:28:15,200
Would I tell you to be worried?
Not much.

2539
02:28:16,200 --> 02:28:19,640
But I would sit down and say
this nonsense has got to stop.

2540
02:28:19,640 --> 02:28:20,400
You can't.
You can't go.

2541
02:28:20,400 --> 02:28:23,560
After us for this.
I mean, imagine if, well, let's

2542
02:28:23,560 --> 02:28:25,560
put it in this situation, and
this is more political than

2543
02:28:25,560 --> 02:28:28,680
anything.
Imagine that instead of being

2544
02:28:28,680 --> 02:28:31,520
focused on fundamental
fundamentalist Mormons.

2545
02:28:31,720 --> 02:28:34,680
Let's face it, Mormons of any
stripe are still not that

2546
02:28:34,680 --> 02:28:38,800
popular in the United States,
no, no matter how much the

2547
02:28:39,120 --> 02:28:45,680
mainline LDS Church tries to
make it more palatable to the

2548
02:28:45,680 --> 02:28:49,560
rest of society.
We saw what happened when Mitt

2549
02:28:49,560 --> 02:28:52,320
Romney was running.
I mean, we really wanted Mormon

2550
02:28:52,320 --> 02:28:55,080
as a president.
I mean, we're not even sure that

2551
02:28:55,080 --> 02:28:56,600
that guy's loyal to the United
States.

2552
02:28:57,520 --> 02:29:00,000
So.
But imagine that instead of a

2553
02:29:00,000 --> 02:29:03,800
fundamentalist Mormon, it was
directed toward a Jew, or it was

2554
02:29:03,800 --> 02:29:07,880
directed toward a Muslim.
All hell would break loose.

2555
02:29:08,440 --> 02:29:10,680
You'd have people down.
There picketing and saying wait

2556
02:29:10,680 --> 02:29:11,800
a.
Minute you'd have somebody from

2557
02:29:11,800 --> 02:29:17,240
the anti defamation league of
the Jewish, I mean, you, you all

2558
02:29:17,240 --> 02:29:20,600
hell would break loose.
And they may not sue.

2559
02:29:20,600 --> 02:29:23,160
They may sue, but it would be a
different story.

2560
02:29:23,800 --> 02:29:26,320
Well, if if it's based on
principle, the principle is the

2561
02:29:26,320 --> 02:29:28,720
same.
You can't pick on me because I'm

2562
02:29:28,720 --> 02:29:31,960
fundamentalist Mormon or because
I am a mainline Mormon, or

2563
02:29:31,960 --> 02:29:34,880
because I'm a Jew, or because
I'm an evangelical Christian or

2564
02:29:34,880 --> 02:29:37,200
because I'm a Muslim or whatever
it may be.

2565
02:29:38,960 --> 02:29:42,560
And again, let's remember what
the categories are that are the

2566
02:29:43,640 --> 02:29:52,040
the basis of basic civil rights.
Race, religion, national origin,

2567
02:29:52,960 --> 02:29:56,880
sex, sexual orientation, all of
those are considered to be

2568
02:29:56,880 --> 02:30:01,280
protected classes.
You cannot discriminate on

2569
02:30:01,320 --> 02:30:06,920
against somebody on those bases.
Let me put it in a different in

2570
02:30:06,920 --> 02:30:08,320
a different focus here for a
second.

2571
02:30:09,520 --> 02:30:12,480
I have people come to me all the
time and they say I've been

2572
02:30:12,480 --> 02:30:15,400
fired from my job.
Do I have any recourse?

2573
02:30:16,520 --> 02:30:21,360
And I will say, was it on the
basis of race, religion,

2574
02:30:21,360 --> 02:30:26,680
national origin, sex, age,
sexual orientation?

2575
02:30:27,200 --> 02:30:31,680
Because the answer to any of
those is yes, you have some

2576
02:30:31,680 --> 02:30:33,400
recourse because those are
protected.

2577
02:30:33,400 --> 02:30:36,560
Classes.
If the answer to those is no, he

2578
02:30:37,120 --> 02:30:40,640
just didn't like the way I
parted my hair, the answer is he

2579
02:30:40,640 --> 02:30:43,680
can fire you because this is a
an at will state.

2580
02:30:44,440 --> 02:30:48,800
But there's certain classes of
individuals that are protected

2581
02:30:49,480 --> 02:30:53,000
and religion is one of those
classes, regardless of what

2582
02:30:53,000 --> 02:30:57,640
religion it is.
OK, All right.

2583
02:30:57,640 --> 02:31:00,400
So maybe.
Maybe the answer is this for for

2584
02:31:00,400 --> 02:31:03,680
all of us.
You know, fundamentalist to get

2585
02:31:03,680 --> 02:31:07,640
a little more vocal.
I can tell you what I did in a

2586
02:31:07,640 --> 02:31:10,480
case recently it.
Had nothing to do with religion.

2587
02:31:11,920 --> 02:31:14,200
I had a guy come into my office
and he said the city of

2588
02:31:14,200 --> 02:31:15,960
Farmington.
Utah.

2589
02:31:17,000 --> 02:31:21,800
Wants to take away my farm.
It's adjacent to a public park

2590
02:31:22,920 --> 02:31:25,520
and they want to condemn it and
take it away from me.

2591
02:31:26,800 --> 02:31:29,920
And I have talked to every law
firm in downtown Salt Lake City.

2592
02:31:29,920 --> 02:31:31,120
And they've all told me the same
thing.

2593
02:31:31,120 --> 02:31:35,840
You can't fight City Hall and
you just try to make the best

2594
02:31:35,840 --> 02:31:36,960
deal you can.
And he was like, well, wait a

2595
02:31:36,960 --> 02:31:39,040
minute, this is my living.
I'm a farmer.

2596
02:31:39,040 --> 02:31:41,040
I mean, you know, and this is a
matter of pride for me.

2597
02:31:41,040 --> 02:31:43,560
I mean, you can't imagine what I
had to go through to make sure

2598
02:31:43,560 --> 02:31:46,760
that the soil had the proper pH
in it and all of that stuff.

2599
02:31:46,760 --> 02:31:48,680
I'm a farmer.
They want to just come in and

2600
02:31:48,680 --> 02:31:51,640
make a soccer field out of it.
I mean, in Farmington, so-called

2601
02:31:51,640 --> 02:31:53,440
soccer town.
I want to live in Farmington.

2602
02:31:53,440 --> 02:31:54,760
I want to have a farm in
Farmington.

2603
02:31:55,720 --> 02:32:01,960
And I said I can save your farm.
And here's why all of the other

2604
02:32:01,960 --> 02:32:03,760
lawyers that you've talked to.
They want to bring a.

2605
02:32:03,760 --> 02:32:06,280
Knife to a gunfight.
I'm going to bring a gun to a

2606
02:32:06,280 --> 02:32:09,120
gunfight.
This is not a legal issue.

2607
02:32:09,520 --> 02:32:13,480
This is a political issue.
And I raised hell and I had

2608
02:32:13,480 --> 02:32:16,640
public hearings in front of the
Farmington City Council and I

2609
02:32:16,640 --> 02:32:20,960
had petitions out there.
Save the farm in Farmington and

2610
02:32:20,960 --> 02:32:24,480
you'll be surprised at when you
have an entire room full of

2611
02:32:24,480 --> 02:32:28,360
people who are saying don't step
on me.

2612
02:32:29,240 --> 02:32:31,800
Suddenly, their hearts and minds
will change.

2613
02:32:32,520 --> 02:32:34,880
It may well be.
That for your folks, the best

2614
02:32:34,880 --> 02:32:37,320
thing to do is to say, you know
what?

2615
02:32:37,960 --> 02:32:39,600
We are coming out of the
shadows.

2616
02:32:40,120 --> 02:32:41,920
We're not doing anything that's
wrong.

2617
02:32:41,920 --> 02:32:43,560
We're not doing anything that's
immoral.

2618
02:32:43,920 --> 02:32:47,520
You can't threaten us just
because you don't like us.

2619
02:32:49,560 --> 02:32:54,680
That might be the answer.
And because I, like I said, much

2620
02:32:54,680 --> 02:32:57,760
of this does not really rely on
legal principles.

2621
02:32:58,080 --> 02:33:00,960
Much of the things that even the
early Mormons we're dealing with

2622
02:33:00,960 --> 02:33:03,520
weren't really a religious and
legal principles.

2623
02:33:04,080 --> 02:33:07,360
It was politics.
Turn the politics around and

2624
02:33:07,360 --> 02:33:11,720
make it work for you.
OK, that's good stuff.

2625
02:33:11,840 --> 02:33:14,080
And just kind of.
Ramp up from there right now

2626
02:33:14,320 --> 02:33:15,760
always avoiding.
Violence.

2627
02:33:15,760 --> 02:33:19,480
I wanted to get that out there
right now, never get violent,

2628
02:33:19,480 --> 02:33:22,720
but continue to ramp up the
pressure and go to court if we

2629
02:33:22,720 --> 02:33:24,600
have to.
Yeah, exactly.

2630
02:33:24,600 --> 02:33:27,200
Well, no violence, especially
political.

2631
02:33:27,200 --> 02:33:29,960
Violence, you can't you can't
lose a fight faster than if

2632
02:33:29,960 --> 02:33:34,800
you're violent but if you go in
and say I'm not voting for you

2633
02:33:34,800 --> 02:33:36,440
and I'm.
Going to go out and campaign.

2634
02:33:36,440 --> 02:33:40,360
I'm going to knock door to door
against your for your opponent

2635
02:33:40,360 --> 02:33:44,840
in the next election.
I got to.

2636
02:33:44,840 --> 02:33:47,080
In fact, I've got to.
Tell you a story about this this

2637
02:33:47,080 --> 02:33:50,200
case that I.
Had we had a big public hearing

2638
02:33:50,200 --> 02:33:57,400
in Farmington and my my client,
the farmer, he says that.

2639
02:33:57,400 --> 02:33:59,360
Guy over there.
He's standing up and he's going

2640
02:33:59,360 --> 02:34:01,240
to make a comment and I don't
know what he's going to say.

2641
02:34:01,240 --> 02:34:03,400
I mean, I've been in competition
with this guy for years.

2642
02:34:03,920 --> 02:34:07,000
You know, he's 85 years old and
he may get up and say that they

2643
02:34:07,000 --> 02:34:10,160
probably ought to take my farm.
This old guy gets up and he

2644
02:34:10,160 --> 02:34:14,000
goes, I've been farming over in
Farmington for the last 60 years

2645
02:34:15,360 --> 02:34:17,600
and you want to put a soccer
field on a farm?

2646
02:34:17,880 --> 02:34:20,720
I got to tell you, I got a
better place for this soccer

2647
02:34:20,720 --> 02:34:22,080
field to go.
Just.

2648
02:34:22,080 --> 02:34:25,040
Ramshackle.
Terrible house out to be knocked

2649
02:34:25,040 --> 02:34:27,880
down.
I'll put a soccer field there.

2650
02:34:28,480 --> 02:34:31,440
It's your house, Mr. Mayor.
Why don't we knock that thing

2651
02:34:31,440 --> 02:34:33,520
down the place?
Of course, Nuts.

2652
02:34:33,520 --> 02:34:37,240
Everybody's just going crazy.
But in the end, you know, the

2653
02:34:37,240 --> 02:34:39,120
mayor's up there.
I mean, he's turning 6 shades of

2654
02:34:39,120 --> 02:34:42,560
purple.
But in the end, yeah, no

2655
02:34:42,560 --> 02:34:45,680
violence.
But step out of the shadows.

2656
02:34:45,680 --> 02:34:48,720
Say, wait a minute.
We don't deserve to be

2657
02:34:48,720 --> 02:34:51,600
discriminated against because
you don't happen to like my

2658
02:34:51,600 --> 02:34:53,720
religion, right?
OK.

2659
02:34:53,720 --> 02:34:56,240
I just want to say a few things
in conclusion, then I'm going to

2660
02:34:56,240 --> 02:34:57,720
throw it.
Right, back to you, Randall, to

2661
02:34:57,720 --> 02:35:02,000
wrap this all up for us.
First, before Randall and I ever

2662
02:35:02,000 --> 02:35:06,200
sat down to have this
conversation, I went ahead and I

2663
02:35:06,200 --> 02:35:09,800
called the county commissioners
as well as the Sheriff's Office

2664
02:35:09,800 --> 02:35:12,560
in the county where this
happened to just kind of get

2665
02:35:12,560 --> 02:35:15,040
their take on it right to see
where they they fell on it.

2666
02:35:15,520 --> 02:35:19,000
I haven't heard anything back
yet from from the county in

2667
02:35:19,000 --> 02:35:23,520
question. 2nd, if you're living
in the county where this post

2668
02:35:23,520 --> 02:35:26,600
was made, please, please, please
remain civil.

2669
02:35:27,080 --> 02:35:30,360
I understand that this kind of
thing and this kind of remark

2670
02:35:30,360 --> 02:35:33,320
and thinly veiled threat, I
understand that it's jarring.

2671
02:35:33,680 --> 02:35:37,400
But nevertheless, we must
exercise restraint in our

2672
02:35:37,400 --> 02:35:40,720
rhetoric while we're standing up
for our rights that are

2673
02:35:40,720 --> 02:35:44,080
guaranteed to us by the
Constitution and the Bill of

2674
02:35:44,080 --> 02:35:47,320
Rights.
But nonetheless, as followers of

2675
02:35:47,320 --> 02:35:51,600
Christ, we should always seek
first for reconciliation.

2676
02:35:52,480 --> 02:35:56,840
Finally, please know that that
this will not be ignored.

2677
02:35:57,760 --> 02:36:00,800
I have been aware that there are
people looking into what their

2678
02:36:00,800 --> 02:36:04,000
potential options might be
legally, and I'm going to

2679
02:36:04,000 --> 02:36:07,200
continue to follow this for as
long as it takes to get resolved

2680
02:36:07,200 --> 02:36:10,200
because this is important.
Not only does this affect us as

2681
02:36:10,200 --> 02:36:14,120
Mormons, but this effects
anybody who might be targeted

2682
02:36:14,520 --> 02:36:17,240
just because of their religious
beliefs and practices.

2683
02:36:18,000 --> 02:36:21,080
And I want to make sure that
this gets followed through with.

2684
02:36:21,080 --> 02:36:24,160
And so I'm I'm going to be
continuing to look at this until

2685
02:36:24,160 --> 02:36:26,760
until we get some sort of
resolution here.

2686
02:36:26,800 --> 02:36:29,120
Dude, this was fun.
Let's do this again.

2687
02:36:30,640 --> 02:36:33,320
Hope I didn't bury to death.
No dude, that was.

2688
02:36:33,320 --> 02:36:36,200
Fascinating stuff.
Because, quite frankly, that's

2689
02:36:36,200 --> 02:36:38,560
not something.
I've ever approached it by is is

2690
02:36:38,560 --> 02:36:42,240
the politics of it, right?
The political implications of

2691
02:36:42,240 --> 02:36:45,400
all of this.
I found it fascinating.

2692
02:36:45,440 --> 02:36:50,080
So yeah, let's let's and look, I
I've said this on the podcast

2693
02:36:50,920 --> 02:36:53,320
the whole time.
I talked to people that

2694
02:36:53,320 --> 02:36:56,360
fascinate me and then everyone
gets to come for the ride and

2695
02:36:56,360 --> 02:37:01,440
people have kept tuning in.
So I'm on to something here.

2696
02:37:01,720 --> 02:37:04,080
So but dude, let's let's do this
again.

2697
02:37:04,960 --> 02:37:07,400
Sure.
All right, fantastic.

2698
02:37:07,840 --> 02:37:10,000
Anything else you.
Want to say in in conclusion?

2699
02:37:10,000 --> 02:37:14,200
Or no, I think you're, I think
you're doing good work and I

2700
02:37:14,200 --> 02:37:16,920
think the more that we can.
Educate people about where we

2701
02:37:16,920 --> 02:37:22,320
stand, what's going on, where
we've been, where we're looking

2702
02:37:22,320 --> 02:37:24,440
to the future.
The better we.

2703
02:37:24,440 --> 02:37:28,680
Are, but I don't want anybody to
walk away from this podcast

2704
02:37:29,120 --> 02:37:33,960
feeling like I'm I'm helpless.
I have nowhere to turn because

2705
02:37:33,960 --> 02:37:36,840
the fact of the matter is
there's a long history here.

2706
02:37:36,840 --> 02:37:39,840
Understanding it will kind of
tell you where you are, but

2707
02:37:39,840 --> 02:37:41,360
it'll also give you hope for the
future.

2708
02:37:41,360 --> 02:37:42,800
I think.
Absolutely.

2709
02:37:43,000 --> 02:37:46,320
Well dude, that was good stuff.
Let's do it again.

2710
02:37:46,320 --> 02:37:49,280
And hang out five minutes here
after I turn this off.

2711
02:37:50,520 --> 02:37:51,680
All right.
Bye everybody.