Episode #146: The Importance Of Brigham Young W/Kimberly Watson Smith, Sean Anderson, Jacob Vidrine, & Taylor Smith

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There is a movement today in
much of the restoration to

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either distance itself or an
extreme instances, completely

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throw out Brigham Young.
The problem is, if you throw

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Brigham Young out, you also
throw out anything that is

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uniquely Mormon because it's
during Brigham's administration

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that many of the deeper
doctrines of the restoration

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taught by Joseph Smith are
expounded upon by Brigham Young.

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So to help talk about the
importance of Brigham Young, I

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bought together a powerhouse of
a panel to have this discussion.

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Joining me for this today are
Kimberly Watson Smith, Sean

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Anderson, Jacob the Dream, and
Taylor Smith.

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We discussed Brigham's life
before he joins the church, his

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early ministry, his missionary
efforts, his pivotal role in the

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secession crisis, his leadership
in getting the Saints out West,

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and finally finishing up by
talking about Brigham Young's

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legacy and importance in the
restoration of the gospel.

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That's next on this episode of
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The.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
All right, so tonight I'm going

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to do something that's a little
different.

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We've done it a few times
before, always had good luck

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with it, but we're going to do a
kind of a panel discussion, not

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a debate, just a discussion.
And we're going to do it about

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Brigham Young.
To help me with that, I've

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brought on some big heavy
hitters, right?

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We've got Kimberly Watson Smith,
Jacob the Dream, we've got Sean

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Anderson and Taylor Smith that
are all joining us here for for

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this podcast.
And so as we have this

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discussion, just know in
advance, these are folks who

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have done their homework.
They understand the gospel

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really well.
And we all come from a little

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bit different perspective on
Brigham Young.

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Certainly some of us have had
our differences in the past and

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that's OK because we're going to
have those things.

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But I, I think I wanted this to
showcase that even though we

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have our differences on certain
things, on these big important

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issues, we can come together and
kind of have each other's back.

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I mean, I'm a fundamentalist,
Sean's a fundamentalist, Jacob

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and, and Taylor both
fundamentalist.

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Kimberly is an active member of
the LDS Church and we can all

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kind of come together on this
and, and really kind of back up

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Brigham Young here because he I
think you'll see by the end of

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this podcast just how vital he
is to the restoration going

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forward.
So with that, I think I think

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everybody knows who everybody
is, right?

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I mean, we, we've all worked
together, talked together at

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some point.
So I don't think there's much

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need for, for an introduction,
but I'm just going to be tossing

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out some questions.
And then as, as you guys have

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thoughts and, you know, ideas
or, or whatnot, feel free to

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jump in.
We'll, we'll keep it orderly,

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but by no means is this a raise
your hand to participate sort of

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a thing.
So with that, let's let's just

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dive right in.
I want to throw this question

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first out to the panel and, and
I want to get everybody's

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feedback here.
So we're we're living in a day

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and age today where Brigham is
under immense attack.

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People would be happy just to
chop Brigham off and not have

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him be part of the gospel story
at all.

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First, I want to ask this
question.

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Why do you think that is?
Who wants to take a first stab

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at that?
I actually just had somebody ask

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me about this today because
there's just so many railing

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accusations that are made
against Brigham Young.

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And he pointed, this friend of
mine was asking, he said these

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people with many a diverse set
of views that they don't really

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even agree on.
The only thing they really agree

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on it seems is attacking Brigham
Young.

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And so he was wondering why all
these different people with

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different beliefs about
authority, different break offs,

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different modern movements that
have come forth.

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And I, I kind of what came to
mind when this was just asked me

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a few hours ago, I said, well, I
think Brigham Young, he, he was

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the most successful in
perpetuating what Joseph Smith

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was teaching and restoring out
of anyone else.

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And he got the biggest
following.

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And so he was, he's by far the
biggest target for people who

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are disgruntled or looking for
someone to attack or demonize or

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tear down in the restoration.
I think that's, that's probably

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the biggest reason in my
opinion, is that he has the

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biggest target on his back for
being the most successful and

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having the most followers, if
that out of all the NABU break

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offs and, and, and Mormon and
when you get into the succession

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crisis and all that.
So I don't know.

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Does anyone else have any
thoughts or?

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One of the observations that I
can make is he's often charged,

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you know, and those who follow
him, you know, where they refer

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to us as Brighamites, they like
to claim that the victors write

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the history.
And the, the thing that makes

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me, makes me laugh at that is
the fact that Brigham and the

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Saints that had to leave Nauvoo
and leave their homes behind

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didn't, at that time didn't seem
like they were very victorious.

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As a matter of fact, they're the
ones that were run out.

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And, and the fact that given the
time that's that's passed, even

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in his day, the church continued
to grow.

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They continued to build the
Kingdom of God.

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They established it and they
still have the same goal.

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And if you look at those that
stayed behind, they just kind of

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fell back and became another
Protestant movement in my

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opinion.
And I think in some ways,

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there's a certain amount of
I'll, I'll go ahead and call it

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jealousy.
But anyway, that's just an

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observation I have about that.
Taylor, did you want to take a

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stab at that at all?
Yeah, I'll, I'll speak to that.

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So the reality is that there are
some difficult doctrines in the

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Restoration and they're not for
everyone.

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And one of the things that seems
to elicit the most emotional and

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just major response of anything
is polygamy.

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And so we have this situation
today where the, the church has

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disavowed polygamy for 135 years
or four years, give or take.

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And, and a lot of members of the
church are not familiar with the

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history.
But if they start to have

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concerns with maybe the church's
authority and, and legitimacy,

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then they, they look for any
weakness, any area of weakness

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and you know, getting people
upset about polygamy or anti

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polygamy.
That's something that

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politicians have been doing
since day one in this country.

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So I mean, you look at even in
the, in the 1860s, I want to say

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it was the Stephen Douglas
debates.

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I guess it would have been the
1850s.

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Lincoln and Douglas were were
asked about the Mormons and

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Stephen Douglas said, well, I'm
going to, you know, it's like a

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cancer.
I'm going to cut it out with a

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knife and, you know, get rid of
the the twin bar relics of

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barbarism, slavery and polygamy.
And so polygamy is, is a is a

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very easy thing to bash.
And you know, you have a lot of

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people who are, I guess you
could say they, they, they, they

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want to believe in some parts of
the gospel, like Joseph Smith

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and, you know, seership book of
Mormons.

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Some, some of these, you know,
very positive and frankly don't

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require quite as much of A
sacrifice types of principles.

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And, and if they can find a way
and, and find a a way to do it

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and not have to touch anything
that's distasteful or that would

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challenge their, you know,
propensities and things that

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they would be be interested in.
You know, if they could get rid

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of polygamy and keep Joseph
Smith, I think there's a huge

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market for that.
And so that has especially with

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recent movements like Denver
Snuffer ISM and the Doctrine of

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Christ group with Justin Griffin
and so forth, I think that there

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is a probably sincere desire to
cling to the gospel, but they

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don't realize that they are
absolutely destroying it because

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of their disavowal and trying to
remove polygamy from the

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equations.
That's that's I guess maybe

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another.
And, and if you can kill, if you

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can discredit Brigham Young,
that is the ultimate ad hominem.

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And because they, they like to
pretend that it was just a

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conspiracy by the 12 to take
over things and, and institute

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polygamy for, you know, probably
carnal reasons and whatnot,

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which is just silly.
But it is it is a a a very

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prevalent thinking that I've
encountered in discussions with

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various folks in different
groups.

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Oops, sorry Kim, do you have a
take on this at all?

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I maybe have a unique
perspective.

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I'm sure maybe you've considered
this, but just being as being a

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a mainstream member of the
church, I would say that because

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I in in the church as a whole, I
think there is a very negative

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view of Brigham Young, even
among the faithful.

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And the reason why I feel this
way is because, number one, I

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feel like we're so far removed
from the doctrines today that

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most people just didn't grow up
with like what Taylor was

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saying, kind of those hard, you
know, those the mysteries of the

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gospel, they weren't passed down
from one generation to the next.

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We've kind of just dismissed
them.

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And and so I think as far as
just we, we're living also in a

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generation where we're, you
know, this is fifth wave

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feminism now, right?
And I think the more people are

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a victim of feminism than they
realize.

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And so they, so reading Brigham
Young is very hard for them.

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It's very, it goes contrary to
culture, to everything they've

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grown up with.
And I mean, you go tell someone

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to read Brigham Young and do
they even understand what he's

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saying?
It it goes against, you know,

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everything they've been
conditioned to believe for, you

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know, even about the
Restoration.

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People talk about Joseph Smith,
but how many people even really

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know his teachings?
I mean, let alone Brigham Young.

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But when Brigham Young's
teaching the the teachings of

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Joseph Smith, that's what
they're dismissing ultimately is

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what Joseph Smith revealed.
That's awesome.

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I, I want to probe this a little
bit because it, quite frankly,

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I'll be honest, shouldn't be a
surprise to anyone out there in

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the audience.
This isn't something I put

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together.
How does, how does feminism kind

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of kind of make someone more
prone?

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00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,920
I guess if I'm understanding
your, your premise here a little

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bit, Kim, how does, how does
feminism make someone feel maybe

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more at odds or put someone in a
position where they might be

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more at odds with Brigham Young.
And the other thing I'll say is

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I was not aware that we're into
the 5th wave of feminism.

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I, I thought we were still back
on the 4th.

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So.
Right.

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Well, I think about it, Brigham
Young, it's a nobody.

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Even if you were to ask someone
what is the patriarchal order,

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what kind of response are you
going to get it?

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It would be that you're going to
hear whatever you know, the

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feminist view is it's
patriarchy, it's bad, it's male

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domination.
Toxic masculinity.

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Yeah, toxic masculinity.
I mean, you just have to look at

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even in today, people can't even
they can't even wrap their their

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minds around even a, a marriage
where you have a man and a woman

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that's 5050 even to them.
That is, you know, that that

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tramples on the right to the
women, even if they're in an

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equal partnership.
She has to be completely free,

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independent of a man.
And I've actually seen this in

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00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:18,320
just recent, you know, LDS
podcast where, you know, women

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00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,200
are talking about, oh, we want,
you know, the priesthood or we

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00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,880
want to, you know, there's this
priestess, this, you know,

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00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,400
priestess hood that we need to
be seeking after.

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00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,720
And they don't realize that that
is part of the patriarchal

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00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,480
order.
They don't even know what it is.

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So, and that I, I believe it's
because of feminism.

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00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,760
And even if you, if a woman says
she's not a feminism, a

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feminist, she carries ideas.
Both men and women today, I

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00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,840
believe, carry those ideas and
they look at it through that

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00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,440
lens, the gospel through that
lens.

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Wow, that's, that's some
profound stuff.

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00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,600
That's awesome.
You know, I, I think there's a

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00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,960
book by, by Hugh Nibley called
Brother Brigham Challenges the

238
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,960
Saints, right?
And I think that that Brigham

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00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,040
constantly challenges us, right?
He has to, he's, he's a prophet.

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00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,800
That's what his calling is to a
large extent, is to challenge us

241
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:21,120
in terms of living the gospel
more more fully, but also the

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00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,880
things he taught.
Let me ask this question and

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00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,640
then we'll we'll move on to
something else.

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00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,040
Many, many, many things.
Almost all things that Brigham

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00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,400
teaches, you can find Joseph
teaching as well.

246
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,600
Why doesn't Joseph get the same
pushback as Brigham Young?

247
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,480
And that's for the whole panel.
Whoever wants to take a stab at

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00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:48,360
that, All of you, if you'd like.
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll dive into

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00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:55,080
that first because I, that's
some excellent, you know,

250
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,480
perspective, Kimberly.
The, the reality is even the

251
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,920
Saint, it's not just modern
Saints that struggle with

252
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,880
Brigham, even some of the early
Saints really struggled with

253
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,440
some of the things that he was
teaching, even when he said I'm

254
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,120
just teaching what Joseph taught
me.

255
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:16,440
And and so the, the reality is,
I can't remember if it was was

256
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,800
Jacob or Sean.
Somebody mentioned earlier about

257
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,560
the deeper things.
I think maybe all of us may have

258
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,600
touched on it.
But but some of those deeper

259
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:31,880
things are when, when Joseph the
the nature of having of of being

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00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:37,120
a martyr is that kind of you get
a pass, you get kind of your

261
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,760
memory is unsolied, as it were,
from anything that could.

262
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:47,200
And and so people just have a
tendency to paint with rose

263
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,280
colored glasses some of the
things that that Joseph did.

264
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:59,440
And, and the reality is he he
did teach some very challenging

265
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,640
things to the Saints, but he did
it in private.

266
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,280
And Brigham kind of when the
church relocated to Utah, they

267
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,280
were out a side of the direct
threat of mob violence and, you

268
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,880
know, government oppression back
east in the United States.

269
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,880
And when they established kind
of, you know, an autonomous

270
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:24,920
nation of Deseret, there was
certainly a little more freedom.

271
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,280
People, I think Brigham and
others felt that they could

272
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,280
speak a little more freely.
And so it's not that Joseph

273
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,520
didn't teach things, but he
didn't teach them publicly.

274
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,240
And, and so even the
contemporaries of Brigham Young

275
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,040
struggled with a lot of the
deeper, more challenging things

276
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:47,200
that that that Brigham Young
kind of brought out in public.

277
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:56,600
So no, that's that's good, Sean.
Yeah, What I wanted to point out

278
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,640
is to follow along with what
Taylor was saying.

279
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:08,040
One of the biggest claims from
from that group of people is

280
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:13,280
that they actually say there's
no evidence contemporary with

281
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,480
Joseph Smith that he taught any
of these doctrines.

282
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,520
And actually there is.
And I found that anytime you

283
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,080
find anything, they they look
for a way to invalidate it by

284
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,560
calling into question the
credibility of whoever wrote it

285
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,800
down.
And it doesn't matter that

286
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,960
people testify to these things
from different camps.

287
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,640
You have people that were
inimical to Brigham, friendly to

288
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,840
Joseph.
You had people that were

289
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,920
inimical to both, all saying the
same thing.

290
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,440
And yet they like to paint it as
a conspiracy from Brigham Young

291
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,600
directing everything.
And to me that's he's got to be

292
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,440
the best conspirator ever
because he gets all these people

293
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,560
from different camps to agree on
the same thing.

294
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,560
And it doesn't matter to them
that the lens from which those

295
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:11,320
people are looking at it, those
that those that are against it

296
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,880
are definitely critical about
it, but they point to the same

297
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,080
facts.
And then you have others that

298
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,800
are amicable to those principles
also relating the same facts

299
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:29,640
from that perspective.
So to me that goes well beyond

300
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,000
the law of witnesses to
establish a truth, especially

301
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:39,800
when you have people that are
not in no way able to what's the

302
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,600
to conspire with each other
because they're in opposite

303
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:44,160
camps.
So.

304
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,960
So one of the things I would
add, why I think it's people

305
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,920
think it, why it appears that
it's there's, it seems baffling

306
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,880
to us, but why it seems to be
easy for some people to try to.

307
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:03,600
Blame everything they don't like
on Brigham Young and make Joseph

308
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,040
Smith in their own image is the
reality is we don't have really

309
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,160
good records for everything in
Joseph Smith's lifetime.

310
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,760
And you know that there was no
Pittman shorthand records of

311
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,360
Joseph Smith's sermons.
You have brief summary notes

312
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,280
that different people kept at
different times.

313
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,920
And by the very end of his life,
you start to get some more

314
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,240
detailed shorthand reports in
1844.

315
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:35,720
But even those are not anything
compared to the detailed

316
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,200
stenographic reports we have of
Brigham Young sermons.

317
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,920
And so not only is there, it's
not as well recorded, but you

318
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:48,520
also have twice as over twice
the amount of time of Brigham

319
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,920
Young teaching throughout his
ministry and having recorded

320
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,560
teaching.
So like with Joseph Smith's

321
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:59,320
ministry, we have 1830 to 1844,
four, 14 years really With

322
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,000
Brigham Young, you have over 30
years.

323
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,520
He was the, I think is he the
second longest serving president

324
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,480
of the church behind Heber J
Grant, if I'm not mistaken.

325
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,120
So he, you know, had a lot of
years and he was very open and

326
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:17,640
about his views.
He was he was on the rough

327
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,240
frontier and he was a lot.
He was very abrasive in his

328
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,400
language and how he talked.
And he often would admit that he

329
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:32,040
said things that were harsh or
more callous that in order to

330
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,520
get the Saints to ignore for the
his what he's trying to convey

331
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,000
to the Saints to get through to
him.

332
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,160
And he would say that often he
would use harsh language and not

333
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,240
actually mean what he said.
But people, especially when it

334
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,880
comes to the feminism issue,
because I do think that's a big

335
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,960
issue of behind attacking
Brigham Young is, you know,

336
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,200
there's obviously the culture
that he's in, but you can take

337
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,640
you can cherry pick when you
have that 30 years of

338
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,320
stenographic reports of what
he's saying at various times,

339
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,680
you can cherry pick that to
almost create whatever Brigham

340
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,000
Young you want.
You can check, take the harshest

341
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,880
statements to make him out to be
a monster.

342
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,520
You can take the the, the nicest
statements that make him out to

343
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,120
be, you know, fuzzy Unicorn, but
the the truth is somewhere in

344
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:24,120
the middle.
But he definitely, but I think

345
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,800
that you need to not just judge
him by his words, but by his

346
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,040
actions.
And so with the feminist attack

347
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,680
on him, they really want to take
something out of context.

348
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,800
And I saw this happen actually
just today with a post that was

349
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,240
made trying to take something he
said and, and use it to say that

350
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,200
he was trying to silence women,
telling them to just shut up and

351
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,280
accept polygamy when that is not
the context of what he was

352
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,960
trying to convey.
He was basically saying that

353
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,800
it's not good to have a
grumbling spirit.

354
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,440
And if you are, he basically
said, I was I'm willing to let

355
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:01,920
everyone who is unhappy with the
system leave the territory and,

356
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,640
you know, get have your bill of
divorce, have your property and

357
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,200
be taken care of if you know,
and this is your opportunity.

358
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,120
But if you continue, if you
choose to continue to live this

359
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:16,040
way, you cannot have this
eternal rumbling about it.

360
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,000
And so that kind of actually.
And so some people pointed out

361
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,600
in response to that attack that
it contradicts the narrative of

362
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,880
this idea that women are being
pressured or or forced or

363
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,200
imprisoned into polygamy because
he was or into Mormonism in

364
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,560
general in the in the Rocky
Mountain West, this idea that he

365
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,560
was oppressing people and
forcing him into the system.

366
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,000
Brigham didn't want to pressure
everyone into Mormonism.

367
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,600
If you were disgruntled and you
weren't giving your heart to it,

368
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,960
he wanted you gone.
He said I want apostates to

369
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,400
clear out and he wanted people
to not be having their influence

370
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,760
poison the rest of the Saints.
And so, you know, and so some

371
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,560
people will take some things he
says about, you know, he says in

372
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,760
certain discourses to try to
malign his character.

373
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,560
But when you look at his actual
record and how women were

374
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,560
treated in early Utah, the very,
you know, this is record of

375
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,600
allowing women to very easily
get out of bad marriage

376
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,640
situations if they are in bad
marriage situations compared to

377
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,760
the rest of the country at that
time.

378
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,880
And the empowerment of the women
with the Relief Society and with

379
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,280
the political participation that
he encouraged during his

380
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,280
lifetime.
I think there's a much more

381
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:38,600
complicated picture than what
the simplistic demonizing image

382
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,600
some people try to create.
So.

383
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,360
Good stuff, Kim, did you want to
take a shot at that?

384
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:46,480
I.
Just want to push back a little

385
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,760
bit about like even the idea
that, you know, there were a lot

386
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,800
of people that even in early
Utah that didn't like Brigham

387
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,080
Young.
I'm sure that's the case.

388
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,920
I don't run into a lot of that
when I study church history.

389
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:03,200
And I just want to speak to the
women because I actually gained

390
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,760
my testimony of Brigham Young by
reading some of the women and

391
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,840
what they had to say about
Brigham Young.

392
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,600
And for example, Eliza Snow,
she's written many poems in

393
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,320
praise of Brigham Young.
And it's not just her.

394
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,680
There's a, a story of Emily
Partridge, who we know, I think

395
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,520
was a, is it Emily that was up
her wife, She Josephs, his poor

396
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:25,720
wife.
And then she married Brigham

397
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,320
Young.
And she tells this story of how

398
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,160
she needed to go to Brigham
Young 'cause she needed money

399
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,080
and she was kind of intimidated
by him and didn't know quite how

400
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,360
to approach him.
And then she relates to

401
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,920
experience how she had a
completely opposite experience

402
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,800
of, of what she was told of, you
know, how he was going to be

403
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,600
overbearing and, and she was
afraid to approach him.

404
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,480
And he turned out to be, you
know, loving and kind.

405
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,880
And, and so I, and, and it's not
just some of the, it's not just

406
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,800
the plural wives.
There's many women who who said,

407
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,360
I entered into plural marriage
because Brigham Young had the

408
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:04,920
voice of an Angel.
And when he spoke of this

409
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,320
command, I knew it came straight
from God.

410
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,320
And so I could, I could list
hundreds of sources where you

411
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:16,840
have women testifying of how to
them Brigham Young was a

412
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,520
prophet.
Brigham Young was a leader.

413
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:24,760
He was loving and kind.
And, and those that actually

414
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,120
followed his counsel, you'll see
that those are the women that

415
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:29,840
actually had the gifts of the
Spirit.

416
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,480
Those are the ones that he
trusted to go out and give

417
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,320
healing blessings to the other
women.

418
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,280
And it, these are the women that
he trusted to go and build the

419
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,440
1st hospital.
I, I don't know if people

420
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,600
realize that Brigham Young, he
organized a group of women to

421
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,480
build the 1st hospital Deseret.
And it was it, it was Eliza Snow

422
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,400
in charge.
And it was, and she had just

423
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,040
women.
And and so the way it I just,

424
00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:01,920
it's just mind blowing to me how
we look at women and how they

425
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,520
want all of these rights.
And then when you read the women

426
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,400
in early Utah, they had all of
those rights and more under

427
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:16,080
Brigham Young.
Absolutely and and he was he

428
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,160
also, if I'm not mistaken,
actually sent women back east to

429
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,680
be trained as doctors, right.
It not just, you know, you're in

430
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,400
charge of the hospital, but felt
like women should be doctors,

431
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,680
right?
Especially, you know, for

432
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,240
delivering babies, that sort of
thing.

433
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,160
So there, there's a lot that
Brigham doesn't get credit for.

434
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,320
The the other Brigham quote that
I love is they were talking

435
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:44,880
about he was given a lecture and
or, or, or a talk, and I believe

436
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,160
it was at the Tabernacle and the
subject of, of disciplining

437
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,920
children came up.
Now, this is a guy who lives in

438
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,200
the 1800s.
Sparing the rod and spoiling the

439
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,760
child are very much on the
forefront of everybody's, you

440
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,520
know, lexicon as far as raising
kids.

441
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,720
Brigham says something
fascinating.

442
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:11,080
He says, I found that that the
use of the rod on our children

443
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,200
too often is the result of a
spoiled parent more than a

444
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,200
spoiled child.
Try reasoning with your

445
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,000
children, right?
This is, this is a guy who's not

446
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,360
necessarily even fitting in his
time in a lot of ways.

447
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:23,160
And in a little bit forward
thinking.

448
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,960
I, I have a slightly different
opinion on why people are

449
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,920
targeting Brigham over Joseph.
And that is because you can't

450
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,560
really, and, and this is because
I think that that these actors

451
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,680
are a little more nefarious, to
be honest with you, and a little

452
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,120
more disingenuous than just
being willfully ignorant.

453
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,960
I think they know they can't
discredit Joseph and keep the

454
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,280
gospel, period.
I do think they, they have

455
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,600
either subconsciously or a very
real thought that if they can

456
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,480
unhook from Brigham, then they
can take that gospel that Joseph

457
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,040
restored and kind of twist it
into whatever they want.

458
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,360
Brigham is a linchpin within the
gospel and, and his, his place

459
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,000
has to be secure if we want any
of those blessings that we as

460
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,560
Mormons, albeit a, a, a
mainstream LDS person or a

461
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,960
fundamentalist have come to hold
dear, right.

462
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,760
This idea of eternal families of
ceilings, these sorts of things

463
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,360
that it, it all hinges with
Brigham after Joseph's death.

464
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,440
And if, if you can get rid of
that, you can really remake the

465
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,280
gospel into anything you want.
So, so anything anybody else got

466
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,480
anything they want to add to
that before I move on here?

467
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:38,840
Perfect.
I.

468
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,160
Just want to know what.
Oh, OK, let's let Kimberly go

469
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,240
and then Jacob, then you.
It's.

470
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,400
Really a quick thought.
I just want to know what

471
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,000
teachings of Joseph Smith we'd
have if Brigham Young didn't

472
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,800
preserve them.
Amen.

473
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,440
That's the biggest thing is that
the the the whole reason we have

474
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,080
the records of the church, the
history of the church, the

475
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,880
sermons is Brigham Young and the
apostles.

476
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,720
Willard Richard is the church
historian.

477
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,200
Absolutely preserve them.
And so, yeah, I've, I've seen

478
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,000
the same quotes you've seen,
Dave, about Brigham Young on

479
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,520
raising children.
And I was actually surprised

480
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,600
when I been reading the journal
Discourses, I ran into those

481
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,640
quotes.
And, you know, it goes against

482
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,000
my sensibilities personally.
But you know, he definitely

483
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,920
cultivated some more, some very
different ideas from the time

484
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,560
that he was in regarding child
rearing.

485
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,200
And one quote that I really
liked that he said, he said, he

486
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,640
said he, he said in several
different quotes that it's

487
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,720
important to cultivate your
children to be free thinking and

488
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,200
independent.
And, and he said never check a

489
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,560
child for questioning, cultivate
that principle.

490
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,560
And that he said it's, it's
important for them to get their

491
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,000
own character and to get their
own, their own independent moral

492
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,120
character and, and able to get
revelation for themselves.

493
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,760
And so I think that is one of
the best things, in my opinion,

494
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,920
that contradicts the view of
Brigham as the tyrant, besides

495
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,440
the fact that he's constantly
telling the Saints to get

496
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,760
revelation for themselves and
that they aren't supposed to

497
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,480
blindly follow him and that
everyone needs to be independent

498
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,840
and to not follow your leaders
if they're teaching you bad

499
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,640
things.
But you know his instructions on

500
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,920
teaching the importance of
children gaining that

501
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,880
independence, so.
Perfect.

502
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,040
Thanks, Sean.
You had something.

503
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,440
Yeah, maybe one of you can check
me because I'm just going off of

504
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,640
memory and I read this about 20
years ago, so bear with me on

505
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,440
that.
I remember a quote by Brigham

506
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,920
Young where he says, has a
master spirit ever arisen in a

507
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:51,240
family where no one can go to
the left or the right of the

508
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:56,560
straight and narrow path?
He says, nay, a master spirit

509
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,120
would seek to to leave such an
environment.

510
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,440
He says nobody wants to see
virtuous young men and women

511
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:10,640
more than I do.
But he says, but in doing so, we

512
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:16,120
should never kill their passion.
We should guide it.

513
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,760
We should instruct it, but not
kill their passion.

514
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,000
Of these wild young men that we
see roaming the straits of Salt

515
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,320
Lake City, you'll see some of
the greatest men that ever that

516
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,800
ever lived in Israel.
Something to that effect.

517
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,720
All right, so with that, I want
to, I want to kind of turn to,

518
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,600
to some life events here because
I think there's some things that

519
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,600
set Brigham up and I want to
just throw these out and talk

520
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,920
about these just a little bit.
So he's born in Vermont.

521
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:58,240
He is, by all accounts, very
destitute growing up.

522
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,160
His mother dies when he's like
14 and he goes almost straight

523
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,640
to work as a Carpenter from
there.

524
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,640
He he's he kind of, you know,
does his thing.

525
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,840
He's a Carpenter.
There's really, I haven't

526
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,440
discovered a lot about like his
dealings with other people, but

527
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,680
in this instant, I kind of think
no news is good news.

528
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,760
You know what I mean?
He doesn't seem to be

529
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,480
exceptionally remarkable in any
way.

530
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:32,480
He joins the church in 1832 and
then just shortly after that,

531
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:38,360
his wife dies.
And then he he ends up marrying

532
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,200
again.
And then it's like a captain on

533
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,280
Zion's camp.
So I want to talk about those,

534
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,120
those years where he was either
a Mormon or just became a Mormon

535
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,560
a little bit.
How do you feel that that these

536
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,080
life events, his mother dying,
he has to go to work really

537
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,360
early, gets married, his wife
dies.

538
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,040
How do you think that impacts
who Brigham Young is as he's

539
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,960
coming into his own within the
gospel?

540
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,840
Well, I, I can't speak from
personal experience.

541
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,360
I've never, my life is pretty
cushy comparative to that.

542
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:20,320
But we know from various other
people that have had to deal

543
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,760
with those types of, of
challenges and trials in their

544
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:28,520
lives that it's, it's, it's
unquantifiable.

545
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:36,280
Like it is just impossible to
really comprehend just how

546
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,360
challenging that can be to to
somebody's growth and

547
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,920
development.
And so, you know, the the

548
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,320
reality is we all have heavenly
parents or our earthly parents

549
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,440
are so important to the plan of
of Father in heaven.

550
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:03,040
But like these stories like
Brigham Young and some of the

551
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,920
other pioneer stories that I
can't remember any names just

552
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,800
for off the top of my head.
But people that that had to go

553
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,600
through those types of
challenges and and endure such

554
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,360
great losses personally in their
families and who were able to

555
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,040
kind of prevail over them like
that is that is not normal.

556
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,760
That that to me, that shows a
great measure of of divine

557
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,400
Providence.
And, you know, heavenly help to

558
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,640
be able to, you know, survive
those types of things without

559
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:37,560
like becoming a criminal or
without becoming just jaded

560
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:44,440
beyond beyond everything.
And so like those to me, yes,

561
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,520
those are are terrible
tragedies, but it it doesn't it

562
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,880
can't take anything away.
If if anything, that actually

563
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,040
increases the the amazing
achievements that he

564
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,920
accomplished in his life.
So.

565
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:06,480
Absolutely.
Jacob, Sean, Kimberly, you guys

566
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:07,800
got anything you want to add to
that?

567
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,800
Well, oh, Kim, go ahead.
Sean, go ahead first.

568
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:26,440
I was just going to say that
experiences like that usually

569
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,520
have a tendency to either make
or break you.

570
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,760
We always experiences like that
have a tendency to make, put a

571
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,760
fork in the road for you.
And one is to basically curse

572
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:47,120
God and die and the other one is
to actually rely on God even

573
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:56,120
more.
And what I can see the

574
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,320
principles of the gospel,
especially when we talk about

575
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,480
eternal ceilings and the
eternity of family

576
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:10,800
relationships, an experience
like that, I think could, could

577
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:19,840
galvanized somebody like Brigham
Young to be even more committed

578
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,240
to the principles that would
bring that about.

579
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,720
Because to reject Brigham Young,
Brigham Young and, and the way

580
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:34,960
he preserved these, especially
these types of teachings is to

581
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:40,760
basically put the, the axe to
the, to the root of the hope we

582
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,320
have and eternal families.
And there are many that are

583
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,720
critical of Brigham Young that
are also taking the position

584
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:51,480
that that temple work is is
invalid.

585
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,440
And with people that have
experienced this type of

586
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:03,400
traumatic loss, that's a great
hope for them to know that not

587
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,800
only will they see their loved
ones again, but they will be

588
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,120
able to have relationships with
them throughout the eternities

589
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,320
by the virtue of the ceilings
that take place.

590
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,160
Anyway, that's all I have to say
on that.

591
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,320
Kimberly, would you have to say
there on that?

592
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,680
Well, definitely along those
same lines as I think that for

593
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,520
sure, I see when you study the
early life of Brigham Young, you

594
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:34,400
really see the Lord trying to
shape and mold him to become the

595
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,120
servant that God needed him to
be.

596
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:38,800
And I don't know if you're going
to touch on this.

597
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,000
I was, I was going to brush up
on this, this story before and I

598
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,800
didn't have time, but there's an
account in the life of Heber C

599
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,960
Kimball.
I think it was.

600
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,240
I'm getting it right where what
happened?

601
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,280
What?
Does anyone know the experience

602
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,560
that Brigham Young had the day
that Joseph Smith got the

603
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,920
plates?
No.

604
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,880
Why don't you go go ahead and
fill us in.

605
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,840
I mean, I'm just hoping if
someone else heard the story,

606
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,000
they, they can fill in the
details that the night that

607
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,920
Joseph Smith got the plates that
they, there was this miraculous

608
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,760
event in the heavens.
And I believe it was Heber C

609
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,680
Kimball and Brigham Young.
They went out and they basically

610
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:21,920
saw a a a battle in the sky.
And so they knew that, you know,

611
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,880
that this something was take
gonna take place, something

612
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,920
significant was taking place at
that time.

613
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,440
You know, and I and I think that
was just a prophesying of who

614
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,960
Brigham Young was and his place
is his role in this great, you

615
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,960
know, last days battle.
If anyone can fill in the

616
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,560
details please do so I it's been
a while.

617
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,120
I've seen a lot of three, I've
seen a lot of sources for that.

618
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,680
They, they share that throughout
their lives that that story of

619
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,280
that vision.
So they didn't know what was

620
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,680
significant happening at the
time, but they later realized

621
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,560
that it was the same night that
Joseph was retrieving the golden

622
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:00,360
plate.
So.

623
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,280
Yeah, I, you know, I, I can kind
of speak to this one personally

624
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,360
a little bit.
My old man passed when I was was

625
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,400
13.
Now, my old man, he was a great

626
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,640
dad in a lot of ways.
He, he kind of reminded me once

627
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,160
I joined the Church of Brigham
Young.

628
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,200
He could definitely be gruff.
He could definitely be in your

629
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,160
face a little bit.
But he also had a tremendous

630
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,240
passionate side, a compassionate
side, Excuse me.

631
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,400
And the old man was really good
at making money, but he was

632
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,360
horrible at paying taxes.
And so when my old man passes,

633
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:41,440
he's got a couple of businesses
and those just go away, 'cause,

634
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,600
you know, there's SPAC taxes
that are owed.

635
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:47,800
And that left us pretty poor as
a family.

636
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,560
And so I remember at the age of
not quite 14, probably 15, I

637
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,560
honestly start working, not out
of, hey, I want money to go goof

638
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,920
off with my friends, but I've
got buy my own clothes.

639
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,280
I got to help out my siblings.
I was the oldest of those.

640
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,600
And so there was a sense of
growing up fast and, and

641
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,760
Kimberly used a good word, which
was molding, right?

642
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,560
I look back on those Times Now,
and while they were certainly

643
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,000
tough, they were very formative
in who I would become.

644
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:27,320
And there is this idea of, of
molding or forging a person

645
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,040
through, through adversity,
right?

646
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,320
And, and I think this sets him
up for such a thing, right?

647
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:41,320
He, he, he gets tough, he gets,
he begins to understand how

648
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,680
important work is from the very
beginning.

649
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,640
All these things start to, to
play a part in who Brigham would

650
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,800
become.
The the other event I wanted to

651
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:58,760
touch on was it's just shortly
after his, his baptism, him and

652
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,360
his wife's baptism, that his
wife just dies.

653
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,800
She passes away of consumption,
which if I'm not mistaken,

654
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,600
someone can correct me here if
I'm wrong.

655
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,160
I think that was cancer, what
they call cancer in the old

656
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,320
days, right?
Consumption.

657
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,680
Or does anyone else know?
Anyway I I could be wrong on

658
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,880
that so a doctor out there
listening can correct me, but I

659
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,200
I think it was like a a pretty
nasty disease to watch someone

660
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,600
die from.
It would have been real easy to

661
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,760
throw in the towel at that point
if you're Brigham Young, right?

662
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,520
It would have been way easy to
be mad at God.

663
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,200
But he doesn't.
Instead, he double s down in

664
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:45,280
inside the gospel.
And I, I think in some ways, if,

665
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,880
if the death of his father or
his mother, excuse me, is, is

666
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,040
something that hardens him, I
think this event might, might

667
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,880
kind of soften him back up.
Right.

668
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:02,000
One, one of the, the shows that
I absolutely love and it's a

669
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,280
guilty pleasures or there's a
show called forged in Fire where

670
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:08,120
they, it shows them making
knives and that sort of thing.

671
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:13,000
And a blade has to be strong
enough to take some abuse, but

672
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,360
still soft enough that it's not
brittle.

673
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,600
And I think, I think we can see
this in people's lives.

674
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,960
And I think we see this with
Brigham Young is that he's, he's

675
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,600
tough enough to get the job
done, but not so tough that he,

676
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,560
he becomes dispassionate that
he, he can't relate to people.

677
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:37,640
And so I see these formative
events as, as Brigham's forging

678
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,040
process where, where the Lord is
making him into more than he

679
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,880
would otherwise be.
And I think we have to recognize

680
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,280
that the, the other reason I
think it's important to look at

681
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,880
Brigham's formative years is
because by the time all of us

682
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:59,000
know Brigham Young, he's we've
kind of turned him into a marble

683
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,160
statue, so to speak, right?
He's, you know, he seems to be a

684
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,000
legend and just larger than
life.

685
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,520
And we sometimes forget about
his humanity.

686
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,000
And I think that has to be
brought out here.

687
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:19,480
I want to ask this question here
with with Brigham Young.

688
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,720
He, he, he goes through these
processes.

689
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,160
What is it you think Joseph sees
in Brigham Young?

690
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,960
Because there's a very real
sense that that Brigham comes

691
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,480
along and Joseph kind of
gravitates to him from the very

692
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:39,640
beginning in In your guys's
opinion, what is it that Joseph

693
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,920
sees in Brigham that attracts
him to Brigham?

694
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,280
Jacob, you want to take a stab
at that one?

695
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:48,480
So there's the saying that's
repeated.

696
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,160
That's several different
sources, all recall this, that

697
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,400
when Joseph saw Brigham for the
first time, he said, you know,

698
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,160
there's one of the greatest men
that will live to preach

699
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,800
redemption to the inhabitants of
the earth and he will yet lead

700
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,040
this church.
So a prediction that Brigham

701
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,440
Young would someday be a leader
of the church.

702
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,840
And after meeting him for the
first time, you know, I think

703
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,360
there was this zeal, zeal that
Brigham Young had for the

704
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,320
gospel.
He he just, he was excited to be

705
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,520
in the restored church.
And he said I wasn't even in, he

706
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,240
said, and he was very humble
about it too.

707
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:26,800
He said I when he said I got
baptized and he goes and ordains

708
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,880
me an elder and I, he's like, I
didn't feel qualified to be an

709
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,520
elder at that time.
I just, you know, but I was

710
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,080
grateful and I felt it was a
responsibility that.

711
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,480
But he anyhow, he meets Joseph
and they're doing family prayer

712
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,080
together.
When he's meets the first time,

713
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,320
he meets Joseph Smith.
And Brigham is actually the

714
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,560
first person in this
dispensation to have the gift of

715
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,440
tongues in that he's there in
saying the prayer, he starts

716
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,640
having the spirit come upon him
and he starts speaking in the

717
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,200
Adamic language.
And some people thought that

718
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,480
would that might be, you know,
that's that, right?

719
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,280
That's that's not, you know,
that's not normal.

720
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,760
And but Joseph said, no, that's
the gift of the spirit.

721
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,960
That's the gift of tongues that
is mentioned in the scriptures.

722
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,960
So, so Brigham had spiritual
gifts throughout his life and

723
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,800
you know, and I do think that
Joseph saw him in the in him the

724
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,480
capacity to be a great leader
and a great missionary for

725
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,560
building up the church and
Kingdom of God.

726
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,840
So I I have that quote, I'm just
going to read it because I think

727
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,000
it's great upon seeing.
So this is from the Diary of

728
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,960
Charles L Walker, page 134.
It's dated September 1832 and he

729
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,720
says upon seeing Brigham Young
for the first time and while yet

730
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:44,520
some distance away, the Prophet
Joseph stopped his chopping on a

731
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,440
beach log, straightened up,
studied Brigham for a moment and

732
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,200
then remarked there comes the
greatest man, whoever lived to

733
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,600
teach the identity of God to the
world, and he will yet lead this

734
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,720
people.
Now the Providence of this

735
00:46:54,880 --> 00:47:00,160
prophecy has been called into
question by by some people, but

736
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,720
I've looked at the original just
on the, the the church archives.

737
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:09,240
And I mean, maybe it was written
in afterward, but it is dated to

738
00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:13,240
this time.
And so it's, it shows that not

739
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:15,720
only was there a personal
connection, but I think that

740
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,840
there was a spiritual like to
say that he was, you know,

741
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,600
basically had never met the man,
but just sees him coming from a

742
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,480
a distance and can say that
prophecy.

743
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:34,040
That's pretty amazing.
So I think that Joseph Smith had

744
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,520
a lot of enemies during his
lifetime.

745
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,720
And so the other thing I would
just point out is there were

746
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:45,920
only two, I want to say of the
of the so the the quorum of 12

747
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,720
was organized a couple of times
during Joseph Smith's lifetime.

748
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,480
Once was like at the very
beginning, you know, eighteen

749
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,160
shoot one was Oliver Cowdry
giving the Apostolic charge

750
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,520
Jacob.
It's probably about 1830, 2:33,

751
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,440
somewhere around there. 35 OK,
so the First Quorum of 12 was

752
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:11,080
organized in 1835.
And of that original number, I

753
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,360
want to say all but two
apostatized and some of them

754
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,320
came back, I believe.
But but the two that never came,

755
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:22,600
that never, never faltered, I
guess, were Brigham Young and

756
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,960
Hebrews C Kimball.
And so I think Joseph, he had

757
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,840
been betrayed and, you know,
disappointed by so many people

758
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:35,320
throughout the course of his
ministry that he, he just valued

759
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:41,560
Brigham Young's steady influence
in his life and, and just

760
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,000
appreciated his loyalty.
So I guess that that's what I

761
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,280
would add to that.
Perfect Him.

762
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:48,640
You got anything you want to add
to that?

763
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,520
Yeah.
And I, most people don't know

764
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,280
this.
Well, you guys might, but it's

765
00:48:54,280 --> 00:49:00,320
interesting when you study 1835,
when you know Joseph Smith

766
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,920
chooses the 12 apostles, they
actually ordains Brigham Young

767
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,040
1st and he actually does it in
private and he relates.

768
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,520
And so he anoints him first.
First of all, he anoints him and

769
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,720
then he ordains him to be the
12.

770
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,320
And then he goes and he's and
then he chooses the 12 and acts

771
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,920
like this is the first time
Brigham Young's being chosen.

772
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,280
But it wasn't.
And he also, Joseph Smith writes

773
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,320
in his journal that he had a
vision of Brigham Young in the

774
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,840
social Kingdom.
And he sees him.

775
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:36,240
And and I'm assuming this is
like, you know, last days during

776
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:40,600
Zion where Brigham Young is out
gathering the elect and he sees

777
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,640
the Savior, you know, on his
right hand side as he's as he's

778
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,200
preaching the gospel and people
are trying to kill him.

779
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,000
Wow.
Jacob, I got a question for you.

780
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,320
Would what kind of events are
you aware of that that Brigham

781
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,640
had?
Because really the next

782
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,160
significant, I shouldn't say
significant, the next major

783
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,240
event we have in Brigham's Young
Young's life is he sent on a

784
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:06,520
mission to, to England.
Do you, are you aware of

785
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,880
anything that goes on during
that mission that that is

786
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,920
especially of note or anything
like that?

787
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,760
Well, I, I do think that's an
important aspect to Brigham

788
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,000
Young.
You know, he actually served

789
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,720
missions before that.
He, he actually talks about

790
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:23,680
that, how he was always striving
to be willing to go without

791
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,720
purse or script in the summers
to be preaching the gospel.

792
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:32,280
And he said that when he met
Joseph Smith, and he said after

793
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:36,280
he met him in 1833, Joseph Smith
kind of gave them the counsel to

794
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,920
never again build up a Gentile
city.

795
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,440
And he said the those have told
them to gather and to build up

796
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,680
Zion was the big instruction and
and Brigham took that to heart.

797
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,760
And so he moved to Kirtland when
Kirtland was, you know, very,

798
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,800
you know, it wasn't, you know,
it didn't have thousands of

799
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,520
people yet.
It was still, you know,

800
00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,840
relatively it was it was just
barely starting.

801
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,880
And he he said, and and you got
to remember when Brigham's what

802
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,800
Brigham Young's wife died
shortly after his baptism.

803
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,200
You know, he's left with two
young children from, you know,

804
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:12,440
that he's having to take care
of.

805
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,920
And he said that his friendship
with the Kimballs, that the lake

806
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,680
Kimball was actually very
helpful to being able to help

807
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,400
take care of his children when
he's working or when he's on

808
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,800
serving missions.
So he he goes to Kirtland and he

809
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,240
basically doesn't really have
any prospects all the time.

810
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:33,040
And it's, you know, they're all
poor And he's, he said, he

811
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:34,920
basically said, I, I went
anyway.

812
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,360
And he said there's a brother
Cahoon there.

813
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:43,360
And he was, he, he basically
said I'll work for you and, you

814
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,680
know, so that I can be doing
something to help build up Zion.

815
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,440
And Brother Cahoon said, I, I'm
just, to be frank with you,

816
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,840
honest, I, I don't even have
money to pay you.

817
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,400
So, but Brigham says, I don't
care, I'm willing to work with

818
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:57,720
you.
And if you will just share what

819
00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:01,320
you have with me, then I, you
know, then we'll, you know, if

820
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,520
we're, if we're unsuccessful
together, we'll, we'll be

821
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,280
unsuccessful together.
If we're successful together,

822
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,000
we'll be successful together.
And so that's kind of his zeal

823
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,440
that he had for the gospel.
And so, but I agree with you.

824
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,760
The, the mission to England
after the Kirtland Temple is

825
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,320
built and they received the
endowment of power and the

826
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,400
spirit in the Kirtland Temple
that, you know, the next big

827
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,160
thing is Joseph telling the, the
preparing them to go and gather

828
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,160
Israel across the ocean in
England.

829
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,160
And that had to take a ton of
faith to do that.

830
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,000
And the thing that I think is
significant about the mission to

831
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:39,240
England is that there were nine
members of so so out of the 12

832
00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:45,520
apostles that were the 12 at
Joseph's death, nine of them had

833
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:49,240
served successfully in the
England mission.

834
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,560
And there were three other
apostles that Joseph's death who

835
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:58,440
weren't involved with it,
William Smith, Lyman White and

836
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:05,040
third one, Johnny Page George.
So all the other ones, they were

837
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,400
willing to take that big leap of
faith of, you know, taking that

838
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,520
treacherous journey.
You know, sailing in a boat

839
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:17,680
across the ocean in that day is
not an easy light task to do.

840
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,640
And you often got seasick.
It was, you know, and I think

841
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,080
that's recorded in their
journals.

842
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,040
Actually, they were Brigham
Young and Hebrew C Kimball were

843
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:30,240
both, I think, very ill when
they were set, set off for their

844
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:33,280
mission, that they were willing
to take the leap of faith and

845
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,240
set off anyway.
But anyhow, so nine of the 12

846
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:40,280
that were the apostles under
Joseph and Nauvoo, they went and

847
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:41,920
they served their missions in
England.

848
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,280
And that really united that
form.

849
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,880
And they never really divided
again after that.

850
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,640
You know, they had their their
doctrinal spats, their

851
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,720
difficulties every once in a
while, but they stayed a united

852
00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:58,360
body after that.
While the other three who

853
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,960
weren't involved with, you know,
that sacrifice and that leap of

854
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,440
faith and that mission, you
know, they, they went in totally

855
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,000
different directions.
And so I think that that I think

856
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,280
that mission was very important
as a leadership opportunity for

857
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,520
Brigham Young learning.
I think it was Brigham Young,

858
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,360
Heber C Kimball and Willard
Richards who acted as a

859
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:21,840
presidency over the England
mission.

860
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,040
And so they had a that was
almost like a precursor to them

861
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,440
later becoming a new First
Presidency after Joseph's death.

862
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,960
But I think one thing that's
significant with the England

863
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,520
Mission 11 fascinating story
that Heber C Kimball shares is

864
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:44,400
that they, they saw this vision
of all these evil spirits in, in

865
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:45,920
England.
And that's a significant story

866
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,120
that they share throughout their
lives in their, in their

867
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,120
sermons.
And Heber C Kimball said he

868
00:54:51,240 --> 00:54:54,920
shared that with Joseph after
returning to Nauvoo and that

869
00:54:54,920 --> 00:55:01,160
Joseph said that the more you're
trying to, the closer we

870
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,920
approach the Lord, the more the
adversary is going to be trying

871
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,600
to attack us.
And so that was a significant

872
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:10,200
thing.
And then I guess another, just

873
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,800
to briefly summarize, there were
other principles that were made

874
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,160
known to the apostles envision
in England.

875
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,200
And it's one thing the the
polygamy deniers will try to say

876
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,560
is they started doing polygamy
in England, which isn't true.

877
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,760
That's there's not evidence to
substantiate that, even though

878
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,360
they tried to to pretend there
is.

879
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:33,080
But they did get a revelation
that Brigham Young said that was

880
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,920
a precursor to Joseph explaining
polygamy to him in Nauvoo, that

881
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,280
he had the promptings of certain
things from the spirit that he

882
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,680
did not then understand.
But then when he returned to

883
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,400
Nauvoo, that Joseph was able to
teach him polygamy and that he

884
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,560
was he was receptive because he
had that experience.

885
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,440
But that isn't the only
principle that was revealed in

886
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,760
England to Brigham Young.
He's the principle of baptism

887
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:00,520
for the dead was actually the,
the the event that sparked

888
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,280
Joseph Smith getting the
revelation of baptism for the

889
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:09,960
dead was a convert in England
actually got a vision of seeing

890
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:14,240
the the apostles and priesthood
holders preaching to spirits in

891
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:19,360
the spirit world and, and doing
baptisms and for the spirit

892
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,480
spirits in the spirit world.
And they, the word of that

893
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,200
vision spreads like wildfire
throughout the church and it

894
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,520
gets back to Joseph Smith and
Joseph says that it's true that

895
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:29,960
there is preaching in the spirit
world.

896
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,200
He said the one thing he
disagreed with was them doing

897
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,160
baptism in the spirit world.
He said that that's an ordinance

898
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:36,760
that has to be done in the
flesh.

899
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:41,120
But he said the, the, the vision
was expressing the importance of

900
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:45,800
baptism and, and, and trying to
prepare for the, for the

901
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:47,560
revelation of baptism for the
dead.

902
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,840
And so that's how Joseph Smith
got the revelation of baptism

903
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:52,360
for the dead.
And so the apostles said they

904
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:56,120
first got, you know, learned
about baptism from the dead

905
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:57,400
while they were still in
England.

906
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,080
And they said another principle
that was revealed to them in

907
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:05,320
England is as man is, God once
was, as God is, man may become.

908
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,800
That was another revelation that
the apostles that Brigham Young

909
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,280
said that he received in
England, and he shared it with

910
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,760
Lorenzo Snow.
And sure enough, they get back

911
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:19,520
to Nauvoo and Joseph Smith
starts teaching them the higher

912
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:24,000
principles about God, which they
were prepared for because of

913
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:28,560
those experiences in England.
So yeah, I don't know if anyone

914
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,760
else has anything else to share
on the England mission, because

915
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,800
that's an area of Church history
that I personally have not

916
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:39,080
studied a whole lot on, but I
think it's an important period

917
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:41,960
for Brigham Young.
Kimberly, is there anything you

918
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,480
wanted to add to that?
You know what, Yeah, One thing

919
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,840
I'll say and, and I think this
is one of those areas where I

920
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:54,600
think we need to look real close
because I think it's as him and

921
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,000
Heber, if I'm not mistaken, are,
are getting ready to go to

922
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,760
England.
They're very ill and so is their

923
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:07,000
family, right?
And, and I think this is the

924
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,120
instance where they're like
riding out on the cart and one

925
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,640
looks to the other and says it's
a hard thing we're doing.

926
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,360
And they have this idea that
they'll just get up and give

927
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:23,520
kind of a, a religious exuberant
display and, and basically 3

928
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,760
shouts for Zion kind of a thing
is what they do.

929
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,080
Or offer Israel Thank you.
That's it.

930
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:32,600
I I Yeah.
See.

931
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:34,880
And that's why Jacob's way
better than me, because he's got

932
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,720
that off the top of his head.
There's a, There's a.

933
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,080
Painting of it that I love.
And so that's how I remember

934
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,040
what they said, OK.
All right, nice.

935
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:46,600
So yeah, I mean, in those days,
it's not like you could say,

936
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,800
well, I'm just going on a trip
and you just got a cold, right?

937
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,320
That that cold could kill you,
right.

938
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:57,200
People were dying of of things
that we consider kind of minor

939
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,760
today.
And so Brigham's going to head

940
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:05,960
out and he's going to do this
despite him not doing well,

941
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:07,600
right.
I mean, from the account,

942
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:12,160
they're very, very ill and the
their families are very, very

943
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,240
ill.
I look at that and I'm like, I'm

944
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,480
a wuss, right?
I mean, if I got a case of the

945
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:20,840
sniffles, I'm like, yeah, I
don't think I'm going to church

946
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,640
today.
I think I'm going to stay home

947
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:26,480
and pack it in.
These guys are like straight up

948
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,760
gangster, right?
Like, oh, no, burn the boats.

949
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:33,520
We're going.
We're gone and just have success

950
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,480
while there.
What what do you think it is

951
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:41,680
that that truly separates guys
like that from, say, people who

952
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:42,800
are lukewarm?
What?

953
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:48,520
What is it about Brigham's
desires that are different from

954
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,040
from, say, everybody else?
And then how do we cultivate

955
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:53,920
that?
Sean, any ideas?

956
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,120
Yeah.
OK, give me just.

957
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:02,680
Well, one thing I'd like to say
about that is it's very easy to

958
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,680
speak in platitudes throughout
your life, but when actually put

959
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:11,000
to the test, many people fold
under those circumstances.

960
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:16,320
I remember in 8th grade.
I moved up from Mexico and

961
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,320
started attending 8th grade in
Bisbee, Arizona, and it was kind

962
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:23,760
of a rough town, but there was
this boy there that was

963
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,600
mercilessly being.
To say the word being picked on

964
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,560
is an understatement.
I mean, being picked on is being

965
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:34,200
teased, being shoved around or
whatever, but he was literally

966
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,360
being punched and hit not just
by one person, but by several.

967
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:42,600
And this was going on.
It went on for about two weeks

968
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,680
and I remember thinking to
myself, why won't anybody do

969
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:49,440
anything about it?
It this happened around the

970
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:53,480
teacher and when this kid tried
to say this is happening to me

971
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,840
and all that just basically got
ignored.

972
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:00,240
And I saw this happening and I
started feeling really bad

973
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:05,480
because I have to admit I was
afraid to stand up because I was

974
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,080
I was a pit squeak.
And in that, in that grade, I

975
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,280
was, I was one of the smallest
guys in the class.

976
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,640
And but it got to the point
where I just felt like I

977
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,960
couldn't stand to see that
anymore.

978
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,560
And they started in on him one
time and I just got a surge of

979
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,560
courage.
I walked up and I, I shoved a

980
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:26,680
couple of guys away and said,
leave this guy alone.

981
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,440
What's wrong with you people?
And I knew in doing that, I was

982
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,000
going to make myself the new
target.

983
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:35,520
And that's what I was afraid of.
And, and, and that that worked.

984
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,520
They left him alone and they,
they started in on me.

985
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,680
The difference between me and
this kid is that my dad had been

986
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,360
a boxer in his youth and he
taught us how to box from the

987
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:49,760
time we were very little kids
put the gloves on me when I was

988
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:53,960
four years old and living in
Mexico the way I did.

989
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,400
We got in a lot of fights.
So I I had experience in doing

990
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,080
it and within a month's time I
got in about 3 fights.

991
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,760
Two were small skirmishes where
a few blows were thrown.

992
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,720
Nobody really got hurt.
People broke it up, but the

993
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:10,280
third one was against the guy
that was the biggest guy.

994
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,480
He was almost a whole head
taller than me and he was

995
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,760
actually pretty, at least in my,
from my perspective at the time,

996
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,480
he was pretty scary.
But I fought him and I didn't

997
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,400
back down.
And to my amazement, I actually

998
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,520
won the fight and won it
convincingly.

999
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,840
And well, nobody picked on me
anymore.

1000
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,120
But the good thing is that they
quit picking on this kid.

1001
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,720
And so that kind of had a happy
ending, but I didn't know that

1002
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,920
going into it.
And in situations like that, I

1003
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:45,880
think most of us can have
moments in our lives where we're

1004
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,720
put to the test that way to see
to see if we have integrity, to

1005
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:54,520
see if we have valiancy.
My dad used to say to me, son,

1006
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,160
it's easy to be honest when you
have the means to pay everybody

1007
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,520
back.
But the true test of your

1008
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:03,120
integrity or your honesty comes
when you don't have the way to

1009
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:06,040
do it or it's very hard to and
you do it anyway.

1010
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,720
And so that that has been, and I
haven't always lived up to it,

1011
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,200
don't get me wrong, but I've had
moments of weakness.

1012
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,480
And we we say weakness a lot,
but the reality is it's

1013
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,640
cowardice.
You know, the I really

1014
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:24,920
understand the words of the song
in in a poor wayfaring man of

1015
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:29,320
grief where it says he asked if
I for him would die.

1016
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,280
He said the spirit is willing,
but the the flesh is weak or the

1017
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:37,720
blood ran chill, but the very
spirit in me said I will.

1018
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:44,280
And to me that encapsulates how
that I think we'll all be faced

1019
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:49,840
with that at some point.
And what we should do is is to

1020
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,800
nurture that type of courage in
our life.

1021
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,080
So when the time comes, we can't
stand for that which is right.

1022
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:01,880
And no statement is truer than
to say that the only thing that

1023
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:04,480
evil needs to flourish is for
good men to do nothing.

1024
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,960
And I believe that Brigham Young
encapsulates that to a great

1025
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:10,840
degree.
With all his faults or anything

1026
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:13,720
that he might have had, I
believe he was a man of courage

1027
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:17,120
and a man of integrity and a man
of honesty.

1028
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,240
And the more I read him, the
more I see it.

1029
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:26,360
And it doesn't bother me that he
was at times considered harsh

1030
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:31,000
because I have found in my life
that the kind of men you can

1031
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:34,760
count on and women a lot of
times tend to be a little rough

1032
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,240
on the side anyway.
All right, Thanks, Sean.

1033
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:48,440
OK, The, the next place I want
to go is to to the secession

1034
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:53,680
crisis because I, I look while
certainly I you can't say this

1035
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:55,520
is where Brigham's ministry
starts.

1036
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,800
Is, is at the secession crisis
'cause he has those other

1037
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,240
experiences.
He leads, he's a captain in

1038
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:06,280
Zion's camp.
He, he is going on missions.

1039
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:11,240
He's he's Joseph's ardent
supporter when everybody else

1040
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:14,520
ditches him.
But this may be at this point,

1041
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:19,560
Brigham's Young's greatest test.
And Jacob, this is one of the

1042
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:21,960
reasons I brought you on is
because you're so good with the

1043
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:24,960
history here.
Talk to us what it's about what

1044
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:27,840
it's like when Brigham first
receives the news.

1045
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,640
He's in Boston, if I'm not
mistaken, or Massachusetts

1046
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:35,000
somewhere.
And then he gets to Nauvoo, talk

1047
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:38,520
a little bit about how he hears
the news of the prophet's death,

1048
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:42,440
and then talk about what he
finds when he gets to Nauvoo.

1049
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:48,160
So I absolutely agree with what
Sean said about Brigham's

1050
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,360
courage.
And that's that's a big thing on

1051
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,960
the succession crisis is that he
really was the one who had the

1052
01:05:54,960 --> 01:06:00,600
courage to stand up and to make
a stand for Joseph's measures

1053
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:05,800
and Joseph's principles.
But I I do think we should

1054
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,280
probably circle back to the
Brigham Young in Nauvoo is an

1055
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:16,640
important church leader, right?
But yeah, so, so in Nauvoo

1056
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:19,680
Brigham, actually, so when we
talk about the Korum of the 12

1057
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:24,720
apostles, we, we often just
think that they're the de facto

1058
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,760
church leaders because that's
how it's understood today and

1059
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,800
that's how it's systematized
since, you know, after Brigham

1060
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:33,680
Young's death.
But it wasn't actually formally

1061
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:38,120
laid out that way in 1835 and,
or even 1844 for that matter.

1062
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:41,480
It was something Apostolic
succession was something that

1063
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,200
developed over time.
And I agree with what Taylor

1064
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:49,200
said where Brigham Young, it was
because of his loyalty to Joseph

1065
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,280
Smith that he gained Joseph
Smith's confidence and was

1066
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,040
involved with more and more
things and given more and more

1067
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:58,960
responsibility.
There's a quote where Brigham

1068
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,920
Young said that when the
apostles were first called in

1069
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:06,320
Kirtland, that Joseph, he said
that the president of the

1070
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:09,400
quorum, I think it was
McClellan, if I'm not mistaken,

1071
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:13,520
complained about how they were,
you know, not really treated

1072
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:16,960
with any real importance.
And Brigham said, yeah, we were,

1073
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,440
we were snubbed for power back
then.

1074
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,760
He says it wasn't until we could
prove ourselves that we were the

1075
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:26,320
servants of all that we were
would be trusted with authority

1076
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:30,680
to be, you know, you know, to
given full authority over, you

1077
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:33,840
know, church matters.
And so, you know, the apostles

1078
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,440
initially started off just as
traveling missionaries, but then

1079
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,920
by the Nauvoo period, they had
proven themselves in England in

1080
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:41,600
their mission.
They had converted more.

1081
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,520
There were more Saints in
England converted than there

1082
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:49,120
were in the United States or at
least gathered in Nauvoo.

1083
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,560
So the the church was actually
larger in England than in the

1084
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:54,320
United States for a period of
time.

1085
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:57,600
And so Brigham and the apostles
get back to Nauvoo and Joseph

1086
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,800
starts to really magnify them.
And at at the conference, I

1087
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,960
believe this is in August of
1841, he says, I want the 12 to,

1088
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:07,160
you know, they've they've
labored hard in the mission

1089
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:11,200
field for years and not
entrusted their families in the

1090
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:13,640
hands of the church to provide
for their families while they

1091
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,840
were gone.
Now it's their time that they

1092
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:21,520
should be here in Zion and
direct their work from here in

1093
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:25,120
Nauvoo and send, you know,
instructions abroad to other

1094
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:28,720
missionaries.
And they should take time to

1095
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:31,680
provide for their families and
stand next to the First

1096
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,319
Presidency in the affairs of the
church.

1097
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:37,640
I don't think that was
necessarily appointing them as

1098
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,960
the, you know, successors of
that time, but I do think it was

1099
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,920
magnifying their
responsibilities in Nauvoo.

1100
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:46,479
And there's a number of things
that Brigham Young was involved

1101
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:49,720
with in Nauvoo that I think is
very significant.

1102
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:54,240
Like obviously the temple
ordinances are important factor

1103
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:59,640
into why the apostles were what
the best choice for the

1104
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:03,640
succession crisis.
So it it was an 18 the endowment

1105
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:07,160
ceremony, the the marriage
ceilings, anointings, work for

1106
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:10,640
the dead.
All of that Joseph began to hint

1107
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,080
at in public discourses during
the Nauvoo period.

1108
01:09:13,399 --> 01:09:16,640
But it was in his private
councils that he began to reveal

1109
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:20,120
actually begin to confer these
ordinances and teach about these

1110
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:22,520
ordinances and principles to his
close followers.

1111
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,040
And so the first meeting of the
body of men that would include

1112
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,800
women that would that would come
to.

1113
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,800
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1114
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,840
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1115
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,640
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1116
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,080
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1117
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:46,920
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1118
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:51,560
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1119
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:55,200
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1120
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:59,160
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1121
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:02,560
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Click the link in this episode's

1122
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:06,720
show notes today.
And so the first meeting of the

1123
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:11,240
body of men that would include
women that would that would come

1124
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:16,320
to, you know, be, you know, come
to have, I think 66 or slightly

1125
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:18,960
more than that members by Joe
Smith's death.

1126
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,160
There's a body of men called the
anointed quorum or the holy

1127
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:25,800
order where Joseph began to
confer the temple ordinances

1128
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,560
because he said that he had
premonitions that he might die

1129
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:32,000
before the temple is completed.
And so it's important to begin

1130
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,480
to initiate other men into these
ordinances.

1131
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:40,200
And so Brigham Young is there
that in a very first meeting on

1132
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:44,720
May 4th, 1842, you can find that
in teachings of of the Prophet

1133
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:48,920
Joseph Smith.
Page 237 Brigham Young, Heber C

1134
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,520
Kimball, Willard Richards, you
know, three of the apostles.

1135
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:56,200
Then the two bishops, Newell K
Whitney and George Miller, you

1136
01:10:56,480 --> 01:11:01,680
know, obviously Joseph Hiram
Smith, I think.

1137
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:05,960
And then William Marks and
William Law and George, George

1138
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:10,000
Adams or James Adams of, of
Springfield or the, you know,

1139
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:12,800
nine men with Joseph Smith.
We revealed those ordinances to.

1140
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,960
And I think what's significant
is that Brigham Young is

1141
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:19,640
involved with the endowments and
the anointings and the

1142
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:25,320
ordinances from, you know, 1842
to 1843 to 1844.

1143
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:28,920
So he is actively involved with
the temple work that's going on.

1144
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:32,480
He's getting to hear Joseph's
instructions in his public

1145
01:11:32,480 --> 01:11:35,480
sermons as well on what he was
envisioning and what was

1146
01:11:35,480 --> 01:11:37,520
important.
And he was also involved with

1147
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:42,400
the Council of 50, which was
organized in 1844.

1148
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:46,400
And so there were all these
secret forms and developments

1149
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:48,200
that were going on.
And new doctrines are being

1150
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:51,320
introduced to the Saints.
Like I guess celestial marriage

1151
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:55,760
is important in that that was
revealed in 18 to the apostles

1152
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:59,000
when they returned from their
mission in, I think, 1841.

1153
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:02,400
And then Joseph revealed, taught
them plural marriage shortly

1154
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:03,880
after they returned from
England.

1155
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:09,000
And so he's right at the center
of all of these developments

1156
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:14,480
that Joseph Smith is revealing
to the Saints or is preparing

1157
01:12:14,480 --> 01:12:17,040
for the Saints.
Like a lot of the secret stuff

1158
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:20,760
in the Anointed Quorum and
Council of 50, that stuff the

1159
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,720
Saints only heard rumors about
and didn't have a whole lot of

1160
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:26,760
information on, but the public
stuff as well.

1161
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:30,680
He was getting this instruction
and he was absolutely right

1162
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:35,200
there in the center of all of
Joseph Smith's activities of of

1163
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:38,120
of these new doctrines that
Joseph was preparing for the

1164
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:41,120
Saints and ordinances as well.
So.

1165
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:48,480
So when Brigham, for all intents
and purposes, kind of seems to

1166
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:51,960
be coming, Joseph's right hand
man here through the whole

1167
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:55,760
thing.
He, he goes back East and that's

1168
01:12:55,760 --> 01:13:00,400
when, when we, when, when Joseph
is assassinated, right?

1169
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:04,800
That's when the martyrdom takes
place when he comes back, right?

1170
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:06,440
Because it's not like the old
days.

1171
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,640
I mean, today where you could
just hop a flight and be back in

1172
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:13,240
six hours, right?
It's, it's a little bit of a, a,

1173
01:13:13,480 --> 01:13:18,480
a process to get out Jacob, What
does he walk into when he gets

1174
01:13:18,480 --> 01:13:21,360
back after the martyrdom?
What, what, what's what?

1175
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:23,440
What are the conditions on the
ground look like?

1176
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,720
So you know, you mentioned the
missions and so I think what's

1177
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:30,640
another thing that's significant
to Brigham's character is Joseph

1178
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:34,000
actually dictates a revelation
in Nauvoo saying that Brigham

1179
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:37,680
had basically is calling
elections made sure and you know

1180
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:41,040
that he had been faithful to
that point and that he the Lord

1181
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:43,560
was not going to require him to
leave his family to serve

1182
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:46,880
missions anymore.
But Brigham still wanted to do

1183
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:49,360
it anyway.
He still felt that missionary

1184
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:51,280
desire.
And so he was active in the

1185
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:54,440
summers in Nauvoo going on
shorter missions.

1186
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:58,200
And so when Joseph is running
for president in a so there's

1187
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:02,120
two different projects in 1844
that he's looking that Joseph is

1188
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:05,080
really starting to emphasize
that first that they need to

1189
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:09,240
have a gathering out West where
they could live the laws of God

1190
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:13,040
as God has revealed to them
without anyone else interfering

1191
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,760
with them.
And so that was a big the the

1192
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:19,240
Rocky Mountain expedition was a
big thing in 1844 that Joseph

1193
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:21,000
was starting.
And the other thing was

1194
01:14:21,440 --> 01:14:25,280
presidential campaign because of
the constant political

1195
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:29,200
persecution the Saints had
received and not being able to

1196
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:33,200
receive any redress from any
government and not even the

1197
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,840
federal government.
And none of the pres, none of

1198
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:40,040
the presidential candidates were
willing to, you know, be willing

1199
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:43,520
to give Joseph a satisfactory
answer that they would help the

1200
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:46,200
Mormons in in their plight for
their rights.

1201
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:49,960
And so Brigham and the 12
actually were more than willing

1202
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:53,240
to go out and serve, you know,
these stump campaigns for Joseph

1203
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:56,960
Smith's candidacy for president
in 1844.

1204
01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:01,040
And Brigham's out West when that
back east.

1205
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:06,320
Excuse me when that happens.
And when they get the news in

1206
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:10,240
July that Joseph and Hiram were
killed, Brigham's initial

1207
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:12,960
reaction is he said that he felt
like his head was going to

1208
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:15,920
crack.
He he said, I didn't cry, but I

1209
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:19,720
I had never felt deeper sorrow
in my life.

1210
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:24,680
And he said his initial thought
was, are the keys of the Kingdom

1211
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:28,120
taken from us?
And he said it came like a clap

1212
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:31,400
and that he said Orson Pratt was
sitting on his lap on his left.

1213
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:35,640
And he said it came to him that
the keys of the Kingdom are

1214
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:39,400
still here with the church.
And he actually said he didn't

1215
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:42,920
think it was with him, but he
knew it was the Lord's business.

1216
01:15:43,440 --> 01:15:47,280
And so he had that comfort and
that revelation that the keys

1217
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:50,320
were still on the earth and that
they hadn't lost their authority

1218
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:54,920
with with Joseph's death.
So the apostles start to return

1219
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:58,920
to Nauvoo.
And in Nauvoo, there's actually

1220
01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:02,680
some there, there's conspiracy
going on in Nauvoo.

1221
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:06,720
And this is very significant in
William Clayton's journals that

1222
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:10,200
I think is not those kind of
overlooked is that Joseph had

1223
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:13,040
intended, if he were to die for
his brother Hiram or his brother

1224
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:16,160
Samuel to lead the church.
And he that's recorded in

1225
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:19,400
William Clayton's journal.
But what's significant to me is

1226
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,800
that even before Samuel Smith is
still alive, he doesn't die

1227
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:29,960
until the end of end of July.
Emma is already trying to

1228
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:34,600
conspire to have William Marks
be the next leader of the church

1229
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:37,600
shortly like a week after Joseph
Smith's death.

1230
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:40,760
And I think the reason she's
wanting William Marks to be the

1231
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,160
next person in charge is because
she knows that William Marks is

1232
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:47,360
against polygamy, like she's
against polygamy and against the

1233
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:49,480
temple doctrines that Joseph is
revealing.

1234
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:53,040
And so she's starting to get
into this conspiracy with

1235
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:56,640
William Marks and then Sidney
Rigdon is is there very quickly

1236
01:16:56,920 --> 01:17:00,000
and they're trying to form kind
of a party to take over the

1237
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:05,320
church and to get rid of these
NABU doctrines that Joseph was

1238
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:08,120
restoring that were very
controversial, in which William

1239
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:13,240
Law felt that Joseph, you know,
you know, needed to be stopped

1240
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:16,400
for for introducing.
So William Law conspired with

1241
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,760
the, you know, the anti Mormons
to get Joseph Smith killed over

1242
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:22,280
these teachings.
But then there's internally

1243
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:25,400
there's Emma and William Marx
and Sidney Rigdon who want to

1244
01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:28,640
get polygamy and temple
ordinances and theocracy and all

1245
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:30,880
these doctrines out of the
church.

1246
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:37,200
And so they're conspiring and
the, and, and basically they're

1247
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:40,400
wanting to do a meeting to
reconvene to, to select the

1248
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:43,560
guardian for the church before
the apostles get back.

1249
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:47,600
And this is the beginning of
August that after Samuel Smith's

1250
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:52,760
death, they are preparing to
select Sidney Rigdon as the

1251
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:54,560
guardian.
And they plan a meeting for

1252
01:17:54,560 --> 01:18:00,400
August 8th, 1844 to appoint for
where for Sidney Rigdon to

1253
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:03,560
advance his claims to be
sustained as guardian of the

1254
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:06,120
church.
And fortunately, the apostles

1255
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:09,880
that were away got back to
Nauvoo two days earlier on

1256
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:14,920
August 6th, 1844, the apostles
that were abroad were able to

1257
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:18,880
get back to Nauvoo.
And the day before the August

1258
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:22,600
8th meeting, on August 7th,
there was kind of a precursor

1259
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:25,800
meeting where Sidney Rigman
starts to advance his vision,

1260
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:30,880
his claims.
And Brigham says, you know, his

1261
01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:36,040
comments in response are very
interesting and and significant

1262
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:41,280
in my opinion, where he says he
didn't really care who ran the

1263
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,320
church.
He said it could even be old Ann

1264
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:45,960
Lee, but we need to get
revelation on it.

1265
01:18:46,480 --> 01:18:49,080
And he said I know who has the
keys to get revelation.

1266
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:53,680
And he's talking mentions the
significance of, you know, that

1267
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:56,680
the apostles had and others had
been given the fullness of the

1268
01:18:56,680 --> 01:19:00,920
priesthood by Joseph Smith.
And so that played a big factor

1269
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:06,240
in in what was going on.
And so he said actually on

1270
01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:09,320
August 7th, 1844, I know there
are those are myths who will

1271
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:12,520
seek the lives of the 12 as they
did the lives of Joseph and

1272
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:14,360
Hiram.
We shall ordain others and give

1273
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:16,640
the fullness of the priesthood
so that if we are killed, the

1274
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:19,560
fullness of the priesthood may
remain.

1275
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:22,880
And so that's one of the, you
know, the temple ordinances are

1276
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:26,400
a key factor in the apostles
succession claims.

1277
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:31,120
So on August 8th, 1844.
And what's what's interesting is

1278
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:35,560
that we're we're on the
anniversary of the date they had

1279
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:37,640
the meeting and Riggan advanced
his claims.

1280
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:43,840
And I think Brigham said that he
only last minute heard about the

1281
01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:46,440
the Riggan speech.
And so he went and he was kind

1282
01:19:46,440 --> 01:19:50,520
of last minute came to Riggan
speech while the other apostles

1283
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:54,840
weren't even aware.
And so he Riggan advances his

1284
01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:56,640
claims to be made guardian of
the church.

1285
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,520
And when Brigham Young stood up
after.

1286
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:04,720
Sidney Rigdon spoke and he he
started addressing the Saints

1287
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:06,680
and how they needed to come
together and have the the

1288
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:09,440
priesthood meet together and to
discuss this matter more

1289
01:20:09,440 --> 01:20:13,240
thoroughly.
Those Saints who had oil in

1290
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:15,440
their lamps and had who had the
spirit.

1291
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:19,240
There were many Saints who had a
miraculous experience of seeing

1292
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:22,480
Brigham Young transfigured to
both look and sound like Joseph

1293
01:20:22,480 --> 01:20:25,160
Smith.
And that's one of the most well

1294
01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:28,640
attested miracles in church
history is the transfiguration

1295
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:33,680
of Brigham Young.
There's well over 125, if not

1296
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,360
way more.
Lynn Jorgensen has 129 sources

1297
01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:40,560
she compiled of witnesses to the
transfiguration of Brigham

1298
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:43,360
Young.
But it showed those Saints who

1299
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:46,160
were without a shepherd that
they that Brigham Young was the

1300
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,920
one they could trust to carry
out Joseph Smith's measures.

1301
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:54,320
And I think that was a big
contributing factor to why the

1302
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:58,200
Saints that afternoon when they
did the second meeting where

1303
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:00,280
they actually had all the
priesthood convene and and

1304
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:04,280
Brigham Young got up and talked
about the authority issues and

1305
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:09,080
running the church.
I think that is why they almost

1306
01:21:09,480 --> 01:21:14,760
unanimously accepted the 12 to
lead the church and to as a

1307
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:18,120
quorum, the quorum of the 12 to
act as the first presidency and

1308
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:22,040
to carry out Joseph's measures
as he had laid them out.

1309
01:21:23,440 --> 01:21:28,440
And so, so, so, yeah, I think
that's, you know, very, you

1310
01:21:28,440 --> 01:21:30,080
know, a a very significant
event.

1311
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:32,520
And I think it's interesting
today is actually the

1312
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:37,160
anniversary of that, you know,
August 8th when we're of, of the

1313
01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:38,960
transfiguration of Brigham Young
starting.

1314
01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:45,240
And so, yeah, I just think it's,
you know, there's it's, it's a

1315
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:47,280
very important part of church
history.

1316
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:47,600
So.
Sure.

1317
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:50,960
Taylor, let me go to Kimberly
and then we'll go to you.

1318
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:55,280
Sorry, I had texted him and said
I had something to add.

1319
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:59,280
So it's just been like, you
know, that impression.

1320
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:02,760
I just have to share this.
So I mean, that was the, you

1321
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:05,840
know, really great explanation
by Jacob and I just before we

1322
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:07,920
move forward, I just kind of
want to backtrack it just a

1323
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:12,880
little bit.
So what was one of the the what

1324
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:14,440
was one of Joseph Smith's
greatest mission?

1325
01:22:14,440 --> 01:22:16,360
What is the purpose of the Book
of Mormon?

1326
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:21,840
The sign that what?
I think she's talking to you,

1327
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:24,240
Sean.
I'm just talking to you who who

1328
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:25,320
will answer what is.
I'm.

1329
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:30,200
Just I'm no, I'm just kidding.
What did Joseph Smith say?

1330
01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:35,600
It was the sign of what?
Wasn't it the gathering of

1331
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:39,040
Israel?
Yep, the gathering of Israel.

1332
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:43,240
And so it's significant that in,
I believe it was 1841, Joseph

1333
01:22:43,240 --> 01:22:46,040
Smith issues the proclamation to
gather.

1334
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:53,240
And because of the the laborers
of Brigham Young and England, we

1335
01:22:53,240 --> 01:22:57,120
have seen the largest gathering
of Israel that the world has

1336
01:22:57,120 --> 01:22:59,920
ever seen to this date.
I believe to.

1337
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:03,840
This date.
I believe it's to this date the

1338
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:07,600
largest gathering of, of a body
of people, right?

1339
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:14,320
They're gathered in a, in one
location and it's, it's, it's

1340
01:23:14,320 --> 01:23:17,720
Brigham Young's converts and
it's Israel being gathered home.

1341
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:23,040
This is like we're missing the
exodus that we're, we're all

1342
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:26,520
waiting for this exodus or you
know, of gathering of Israel.

1343
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:28,920
And we've already seen the first
one.

1344
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:31,080
And this is Brigham Young,
right?

1345
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:34,080
His laborers in, in the other
apostles in England.

1346
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:37,000
Those converts are they're,
they're Israel, they're coming

1347
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:38,560
home.
They're being gathered and

1348
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:39,960
they're being gathered to
Nauvoo.

1349
01:23:40,160 --> 01:23:42,800
And, and then when we talked
about the beginning of the

1350
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:46,160
podcast, why there's so much
animosity against Brigham Young,

1351
01:23:46,160 --> 01:23:50,280
and it's because of his success.
It really is his success.

1352
01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:54,040
He gathered Israel.
The keys were given to Joseph

1353
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:56,000
Smith.
He went out and did the work.

1354
01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:59,840
Joseph Smith has given the keys.
He's given the vision delegates

1355
01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:02,000
to Brigham Young.
Brigham Young goes out and

1356
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:04,680
fulfills the mission, if that
makes sense.

1357
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:08,800
And then just leading up to the
succession crisis.

1358
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:11,840
I, I just, I think it's
significant to point out because

1359
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:14,280
everyone thinks it was like,
well, the church had to choose

1360
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:16,640
between Brigham Young and Sidney
Rigdon, right?

1361
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:20,040
And like Sydney, Reagan was just
He was gypped.

1362
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:24,800
But most people, I am shocked
haven't heard this statement

1363
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:28,160
from Joseph Smith On August 13th
of 1843.

1364
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:34,480
He actually sent out a, whatever
you call it, a proclamate.

1365
01:24:34,480 --> 01:24:37,360
I don't know it wouldn't be a
proclamation, but he set out a

1366
01:24:37,360 --> 01:24:41,640
notice to the Saints and he
said, quote, we've had certain

1367
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:44,480
traders in this city who have
been writing falsehoods to

1368
01:24:44,480 --> 01:24:46,760
Missouri.
And there's a certain man in

1369
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:50,160
this city who has made a
covenant to betray and give me

1370
01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:53,120
up to the Missourians.
And that too, before Governor

1371
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:55,760
Carlin commits his his
persecutions.

1372
01:24:56,040 --> 01:24:59,000
That man is no other than Sidney
Rigman.

1373
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:04,560
So not only did Joseph Smith, he
publicly calls out Sidney Rigdon

1374
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:08,200
as a trader, but then he
withdrew his fellowship from him

1375
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:11,400
and he asked the Saints to
proclaim it abroad that he would

1376
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:13,720
no longer accept him as his
counselor.

1377
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:17,120
And this recorded in the history
of the Church.

1378
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:22,120
So I mean, not only was Sidney
Rigdon not like the rightful

1379
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:25,560
successor, but he's also, he was
named by Joseph Smith as one of

1380
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:29,440
the traders who betrayed him and
that he and Joseph Smith

1381
01:25:29,440 --> 01:25:33,240
withdrew his fellowship.
And then Jacob talked about how

1382
01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:35,840
ensuring that that the fullness
of the priesthood would be

1383
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:38,840
preserved.
And it's, it's also significant

1384
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:45,120
that when Sidney Rigdon was
rejected by, by the body of the

1385
01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:48,040
Saints, that he then made a
false prophecy that not, not

1386
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:49,960
another stone will be laid on
the temple.

1387
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:53,840
So you can see that Brigham
Young is the one who's trying to

1388
01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:56,560
carry on the work of of Joseph
Smith, and Sidney Rigdon is the

1389
01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:58,080
one that's trying to tear it
down.

1390
01:25:59,560 --> 01:26:02,200
There's a plan to drop him from
the First Presidency at the

1391
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:06,000
October 1843 conference.
Kimberly, thanks for sharing

1392
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:10,520
that because I was unaware of of
Joseph's proclamation about

1393
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:12,360
Sydney rigged and that's
interesting.

1394
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:15,760
Taylor, what would you have?
Yeah.

1395
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:18,640
So just a little bit more detail
on that those events.

1396
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:23,200
So I was not aware of this
because, you know, I've, I had

1397
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:27,800
just heard the church accounts
talking about, you know, it's, I

1398
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:30,720
thought it was a 2 horse race
between, you know, Sidney Rigdon

1399
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:36,360
versus Brigham Young and I was
going back to the, the Joseph

1400
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:38,960
Smith trying to release Sidney
from the first Presidency.

1401
01:26:39,440 --> 01:26:45,360
So that happened and the church
wouldn't they, they wouldn't

1402
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:48,080
sustain it.
They voted it down.

1403
01:26:48,400 --> 01:26:52,840
And Joseph being the man of
principle that he is, was like,

1404
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:57,880
OK, well, if common consent,
that's a, that's a true

1405
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:00,880
principle.
So he, he, he basically said,

1406
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:04,040
OK, that's, that's their choice.
OK, we'll roll with that.

1407
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:07,920
But that didn't stop.
That didn't mean he was forced

1408
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:10,920
to not have no counselors
because it was his counselors in

1409
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:14,320
the first presidency that time
were Sydney Rigdon, who

1410
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:19,000
abandoned the church was a
traitor, and William Law who

1411
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:24,400
also basically got Joseph killed
with an odd expositor and, and

1412
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:28,120
all of that stuff.
So, so Joseph called the third

1413
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:32,000
counselor and he only had one,
you know, guy that he could rely

1414
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:33,560
on.
It happens to be my ancestor,

1415
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:38,680
Amasa Mason Lyman.
And Amasa Lyman was a, a, a real

1416
01:27:38,680 --> 01:27:42,640
interesting figure because he's
kind of been written out of

1417
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:45,760
church history.
He stood up at that October 8th

1418
01:27:46,040 --> 01:27:47,680
or excuse me, August 8th
conference.

1419
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:52,880
And, you know, Sydney stood up
for hours, you know, and, and

1420
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:58,720
gave apparently some really
verbose sermon about it.

1421
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:02,280
And, and Amisa Lyman stood up
second.

1422
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:07,240
And he basically talked for two
minutes and said, OK, so the

1423
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:12,640
reality is Brigham Young is the
rightful heir, you know, and,

1424
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:14,840
and this is actually backed up.
This isn't just, you know,

1425
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:17,120
family history, you know,
hearsay or whatever.

1426
01:28:17,400 --> 01:28:24,960
This is backed up in the records
because he Amisa Lyman call was

1427
01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:29,680
was present at a lot of these
Holy quorum anointed quorum

1428
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:33,520
meetings and when Joseph Smith
was absent, Brigham Young

1429
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:36,000
presided and that's in in the
records.

1430
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:38,920
And you know, that goes for the
quorum of anointed and the

1431
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:44,760
council of 50 minutes.
And so, but but Amos alignment

1432
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:47,400
stood up for two minutes and he
just basically bore his

1433
01:28:47,400 --> 01:28:51,200
testimony that before Joseph's
death, he gave the keys of the

1434
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:55,400
Kingdom to the 12 and Brigham as
the president of that quorum.

1435
01:28:56,320 --> 01:28:58,640
And so he just basically threw a
support to Brigham.

1436
01:28:58,960 --> 01:29:02,160
One of the other concerns are I
guess objections that I've seen

1437
01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:05,320
people make of this
transfiguration because of

1438
01:29:05,320 --> 01:29:08,640
course, very few of these
accounts were recorded

1439
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:12,040
contemporaneously.
Most of them were recorded, you

1440
01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:15,360
know, decades after the fact.
And, and there could that could

1441
01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:17,480
call into question some of the
reliability of some of these

1442
01:29:17,480 --> 01:29:19,600
accounts of the transfiguration
of Brigham Young.

1443
01:29:20,200 --> 01:29:25,960
Nevertheless, he there are some
contemporaneously recorded just

1444
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:28,240
like a few, I want to say weeks
or months.

1445
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:31,680
I know, Jacob, you actually
wrote a paper about this that I

1446
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:37,440
read a few years ago and it
basically talks about how it was

1447
01:29:37,440 --> 01:29:41,480
not necessarily like a flash and
like instantly hundreds of

1448
01:29:41,480 --> 01:29:45,840
people heard Joseph Smith.
It was, it was more of a, an

1449
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:49,600
ongoing, like it wasn't an
event.

1450
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:54,120
It was a, it was an ongoing
thing that that people were

1451
01:29:54,120 --> 01:29:57,000
testimony to.
And so I think that it's just

1452
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:01,200
really important to keep in mind
that these types of accounts are

1453
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:04,480
just because they weren't
contemporaneously recorded

1454
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:07,760
necessarily doesn't mean that
they're not valid because there

1455
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:10,760
are some and then people who
were present at these meetings

1456
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:14,920
definitely recorded later on of
the, of the truth of what

1457
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:17,760
happened.
So I just wanted to just throw

1458
01:30:17,760 --> 01:30:23,360
in the, the importance of
spiritual witnesses.

1459
01:30:23,480 --> 01:30:29,280
It'd be one thing if Brigham
Young was just told to, you

1460
01:30:29,280 --> 01:30:33,200
know, it just took the took the
reins and abused, I guess you

1461
01:30:33,200 --> 01:30:37,160
could say abused his position of
authority, but that's not what

1462
01:30:37,160 --> 01:30:43,400
happened.
And he rather instead he was

1463
01:30:43,440 --> 01:30:46,760
just, like it has been said,
perpetuating the work that

1464
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:49,920
Joseph Smith commenced with the
temple and so forth.

1465
01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:54,040
So that's all I had.
No, that's good stuff.

1466
01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:58,440
Something else that that jumps
out at me about this this time

1467
01:30:58,440 --> 01:31:03,520
period is that with enemies of
Brigham, it's often portrayed

1468
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:07,000
that Brigham came in and seized
power in this moment.

1469
01:31:07,960 --> 01:31:11,560
I think it's worthwhile to point
out that it's not like Brigham

1470
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,320
just set himself up as president
of the church.

1471
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:18,600
The church operated under
Apostolic direction for a number

1472
01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:22,280
of years, clear into the Utah
period before Brigham is named

1473
01:31:22,280 --> 01:31:25,680
president of the church and then
sustained as prophet, seer and

1474
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:28,760
revelator.
So this idea that that Brigham

1475
01:31:28,760 --> 01:31:33,400
just comes in and just seizes
power and this was his plan from

1476
01:31:33,400 --> 01:31:37,040
the from the beginning, it
doesn't hold water, right?

1477
01:31:37,280 --> 01:31:42,320
And we can see that that
Brigham, true to the man he was,

1478
01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:46,880
he counsels with with those
other members of the 12th.

1479
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:50,280
Now, I want to be clear here.
There's no doubt that the rest

1480
01:31:50,280 --> 01:31:52,600
of the 12 deferred to Brigham,
right?

1481
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:56,440
And I think that's because
everybody understood who Brigham

1482
01:31:56,440 --> 01:32:00,560
was, right?
I don't get the sense that that

1483
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:03,440
Brigham had to stand on
authority.

1484
01:32:03,440 --> 01:32:08,440
So, you know, so to speak a a
great deal, just who he was was

1485
01:32:08,440 --> 01:32:11,440
enough that people naturally
want to follow him.

1486
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:15,720
Now that transfiguration moment,
that's a huge moment, right?

1487
01:32:15,720 --> 01:32:20,480
Because it's a a kind of a stamp
and seal of approval from Joseph

1488
01:32:20,480 --> 01:32:24,360
on Brigham, right, is I think
how a lot of people viewed this

1489
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:27,880
and that that it was very much
this idea that Brigham would

1490
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,080
continue the work that Joseph
had started.

1491
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:36,920
And so I think it's important
that context, especially because

1492
01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:39,800
it's one that we find a lot that
Brigham's just power hungry and

1493
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:43,280
he's just waiting for his
opportunity to pounce on that

1494
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:45,600
power.
It couldn't be farther from the

1495
01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:50,000
truth.
All right, So Joseph smarter we

1496
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:54,000
have we have these events as
Jacob put everything together.

1497
01:32:54,600 --> 01:32:58,800
I want to now go to really one
of the the the best revelations

1498
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:02,840
that that in my opinion, that
Brigham ever gets, and that's

1499
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:05,560
the section 136 of the Doctrine
and Covenants.

1500
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:11,840
And this is one of those times
that I think because Brigham

1501
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:17,280
gets this and and what's amazing
is, is that it sounds very much

1502
01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:20,600
like the rest of the revelations
that had been given previously,

1503
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:22,440
right?
And so much like the

1504
01:33:22,440 --> 01:33:28,320
transfiguration event, this also
is an event at which I think a

1505
01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:31,080
lot of the other Saints were
able to say, look at that.

1506
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:35,280
The Lord still speaking through
through this, through this

1507
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:38,680
leadership.
One of the things I find so

1508
01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:46,400
interesting is how he's able to
lay out how the camp is supposed

1509
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:52,640
to be govern, so to speak, right
in their exodus W how they're to

1510
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:54,840
do this.
And he patterns it a lot after

1511
01:33:55,200 --> 01:33:58,760
the Old Testament when he gets
that revelation from the Lord.

1512
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:05,680
My question to you guys is this,
do you guys know you know?

1513
01:34:06,160 --> 01:34:08,720
Well, let let me rephrase this
not so much question.

1514
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:14,520
I had somebody reach out to me
once when we were talking about

1515
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:16,520
Brigham Young.
I can't remember what episode it

1516
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:20,480
was, but somebody had got upset.
This was a person who lived in

1517
01:34:20,480 --> 01:34:25,120
Ireland of all places.
And I got just a scathing e-mail

1518
01:34:25,640 --> 01:34:29,560
blaming Brigham Young for more
deaths on the trail than needed

1519
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:32,800
to happen.
You know, he, he, he was a

1520
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:34,680
horrible leader.
And that's why a whole bunch of

1521
01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:38,400
people died on the trail.
This got me thinking real quick.

1522
01:34:38,840 --> 01:34:41,120
And I was like, OK, I should
probably go do some research.

1523
01:34:41,120 --> 01:34:45,560
So I went ahead and I looked at
the Mormon Trail versus the

1524
01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:50,960
Oregon Trail, and the deaths
that happened on the Mormon

1525
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:57,200
Trail were far less frequent
than what was happening on the

1526
01:34:57,200 --> 01:35:00,120
Oregon Trail.
On the Oregon Trail, I believe

1527
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:02,160
the the numbers were somewhere,
and this is according to the

1528
01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:06,480
government's own numbers, is
that you're looking at about a

1529
01:35:06,480 --> 01:35:10,840
12% chance you're going to die
on that trek W to to the Oregon

1530
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:14,320
Country.
With Brigham Young's Mormon

1531
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:19,560
Trail, it's less than a percent.
You got a 99 point something

1532
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:24,400
percent chance you're going to
reach your destination alive.

1533
01:35:26,120 --> 01:35:29,640
What is it about Brigham Young
that you think people responded

1534
01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:35,800
so well to on this trek W both
during the vanguard company as

1535
01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:37,800
well as other people coming
over?

1536
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:40,400
What?
What does Brigham do that makes

1537
01:35:40,400 --> 01:35:44,680
this so wildly successful?
I guess I'll dive in first.

1538
01:35:45,440 --> 01:35:49,040
I think so.
Of course Joseph Smith had

1539
01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:56,240
unparalleled gifts and his
ability to inspire and just

1540
01:35:56,520 --> 01:35:59,760
obtain revelation and commune
with heaven are are just

1541
01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:03,840
unequalled.
Brigham didn't have those gifts.

1542
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:08,480
He was not the visionary, but I
don't think Joseph Smith himself

1543
01:36:08,480 --> 01:36:11,480
could have done the job that
Brigham Young did as far as

1544
01:36:11,480 --> 01:36:14,480
organizing and preparing every
needful thing like actually

1545
01:36:14,480 --> 01:36:18,160
doing the revelation.
What what's outlined in I think

1546
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:24,800
it's Section 88 and and it's he,
he was just a master of

1547
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:29,360
organization and bringing people
together, uniting around the a

1548
01:36:29,360 --> 01:36:31,880
common cause.
Like, I don't know if if we've

1549
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:36,720
ever seen, if the world's ever
seen a guy more gifted and

1550
01:36:36,720 --> 01:36:40,920
capable than Brigham Young of
bringing people together to work

1551
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:44,240
toward a common goal.
And so I think that, and I

1552
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:47,200
would, I would even go as far as
say Joseph Smith is included in

1553
01:36:47,200 --> 01:36:48,760
that number.
And that doesn't take anything

1554
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:55,000
away from from Joseph.
But it's it's just foolishness

1555
01:36:55,000 --> 01:37:01,760
in my mind to criticize Brigham
Young's leadership when like the

1556
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:03,560
proof is in the pudding.
By their fruits, you shall know

1557
01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:05,480
them.
What you just cited, you know,

1558
01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:11,280
over over 12 times more deaths
on the on the pioneer trail.

1559
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:19,280
I mean, yes, there were deaths,
but to try to say that they're

1560
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:22,560
the at the, you know, Brigham
has blood on his hands or

1561
01:37:22,560 --> 01:37:24,960
something.
I don't understand that.

1562
01:37:25,400 --> 01:37:32,400
And I guess I, I, I'm just kind
of shocked at the ignorance

1563
01:37:32,480 --> 01:37:37,200
somebody would have to have to,
to even think that that was like

1564
01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:40,760
a historical number or, or claim
or anything like that.

1565
01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:44,360
So.
I'd like to say something and

1566
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:50,840
yeah, I think many of the, I
think many of the things that

1567
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:53,760
are brought up against Brigham,
like, like was just mentioned

1568
01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:57,280
that this person from Ireland,
is that what you said?

1569
01:37:57,280 --> 01:38:00,000
Yeah.
Oh, he has blood on his hands

1570
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:01,760
because of all these things that
happened.

1571
01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:04,680
I I sometimes wonder if they've
ever read their scriptures,

1572
01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:08,560
because if you, if you look at
Lehi and his family, they're

1573
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:12,560
called out of Jerusalem and they
don't, they don't get called

1574
01:38:12,560 --> 01:38:13,680
out.
And then all of a sudden they're

1575
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:17,800
in the promised land.
They go through years of trials

1576
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:21,720
and tribulations, even to the
extent that you have brothers,

1577
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:23,920
you know, threatening to kill
their brother.

1578
01:38:25,080 --> 01:38:28,760
And, you know, outsiders looking
in can see this is kind of a

1579
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:32,680
dysfunctional family.
But when you begin to read the

1580
01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:36,560
lives of of prophets throughout
the Bible, Book of Mormon, you

1581
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:39,760
see that these kind of things
happened because opposition

1582
01:38:39,760 --> 01:38:45,320
exists.
And I don't understand the, the

1583
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:49,080
way people view religion to say,
well, they have to be completely

1584
01:38:49,440 --> 01:38:51,520
free of any of that for me to
ever believe them.

1585
01:38:53,200 --> 01:38:58,240
Even any success story that you
find in life, I doubt that you

1586
01:38:58,240 --> 01:39:04,600
find them in a vacuum, free of,
of any kind of trials or, or

1587
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:08,680
controversies that that surround
these people.

1588
01:39:09,760 --> 01:39:13,400
Because pretty much anything
worthwhile is going to be met

1589
01:39:13,400 --> 01:39:17,680
with opposition.
And, and sometimes, like the

1590
01:39:17,680 --> 01:39:21,680
savior said, those who will
oppose you the most come from

1591
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:25,120
your own house.
And so I think that those

1592
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:33,120
arguments are really naive.
There's this a man from from

1593
01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:38,120
Israel, his name is Joseph
Ganat, and he was a minister in

1594
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:43,360
the, a cabinet member of the
Issac Rabin, Issac Rabin

1595
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:48,760
administration.
And he was giving a talk in in

1596
01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:55,160
Salt Lake and he made the
statement that in 1948 he was

1597
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:57,120
just, he was pretty young at the
time.

1598
01:39:57,120 --> 01:39:59,640
He was born in the 30s, early
30s.

1599
01:40:01,360 --> 01:40:04,440
And he said they handed rifles
to the women and children to

1600
01:40:04,440 --> 01:40:06,960
defend themselves against the
attacks coming in from the Arab

1601
01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:10,360
neighbors.
There was this lady that raised

1602
01:40:10,360 --> 01:40:13,480
her hand and said why would you
make your women and children

1603
01:40:13,480 --> 01:40:20,520
fight?
His answer was there was 10/10

1604
01:40:20,520 --> 01:40:24,520
to 15,000,000 Jews.
And they were surrounded by 800

1605
01:40:24,520 --> 01:40:30,440
million Muslims.
He said we had to even up the

1606
01:40:30,440 --> 01:40:35,640
odds to the best of our ability.
Then she answered saying,

1607
01:40:36,120 --> 01:40:38,560
couldn't you have made a treaty
with your enemies so that they

1608
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:40,000
would respect your women and
children?

1609
01:40:41,360 --> 01:40:45,600
His answer was, our enemies
vowed that they wouldn't stop

1610
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:48,760
until the Mediterranean Sea was
red with Jewish blood, man,

1611
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:51,480
woman and child.
Does that answer your question?

1612
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:59,600
So the point I'm getting at is
there is a naivete with people

1613
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:08,200
that have this view of life and
they seem to negate reality in

1614
01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:11,560
their considerations.
And this reality gives a ton of

1615
01:41:11,560 --> 01:41:17,160
context to things that happen.
So we can't just see isolated

1616
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:20,240
incident incidents and, and say,
well, this guy was evil, this

1617
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:21,920
guy was good or anything like
that.

1618
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:25,800
You have to look at a a broad
spectrum of circumstances,

1619
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:30,600
attitudes, culture, all kinds of
things to make a determination

1620
01:41:30,600 --> 01:41:34,040
of what really happened.
Anyway, that's that's it.

1621
01:41:35,400 --> 01:41:39,040
Thanks, John.
Jacob, anything you want to add

1622
01:41:39,040 --> 01:41:41,200
to that before we we move on
here?

1623
01:41:41,920 --> 01:41:46,040
So, yeah, I agree with
everything Sean and Taylor said

1624
01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:49,800
on that.
I think, you know, obviously

1625
01:41:49,800 --> 01:41:53,560
there's trials and difficulties,
but, and I think what you

1626
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:57,360
brought up is, you know, compare
it to the other tracks and other

1627
01:41:57,360 --> 01:42:01,520
trails going West.
You know, the Saints had a lot

1628
01:42:01,520 --> 01:42:05,680
less difficulties comparatively.
And I think that's actually kind

1629
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:12,000
of miraculous because they were
not prepared in any real sense

1630
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:16,240
of the word for that exodus they
had, you know, they they labored

1631
01:42:16,240 --> 01:42:20,080
and and spent all their means to
get that temple completed.

1632
01:42:20,320 --> 01:42:23,600
I think people don't realize how
uncomplete the temple was when

1633
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:26,160
Joseph died.
It was they didn't I don't I'm

1634
01:42:26,160 --> 01:42:28,880
as far as I understand, they
didn't even have the first story

1635
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:32,000
all the way completed.
They they had the walls of the

1636
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:33,520
first story, but they didn't
have it.

1637
01:42:34,120 --> 01:42:36,880
You know that that's less than
you know that that's very

1638
01:42:36,880 --> 01:42:39,600
uncompleted.
But they went and they finished

1639
01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:42,080
it all the way up to the
capstone and then finished up

1640
01:42:42,080 --> 01:42:44,760
the interiors to the point they
were able to do ordinances in

1641
01:42:44,760 --> 01:42:46,920
there.
And all the while they know that

1642
01:42:46,920 --> 01:42:50,840
they're facing, you know, mob
threats.

1643
01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:56,160
And even the governor of
Illinois is about is wanting to

1644
01:42:56,160 --> 01:42:59,960
call in the, he's trying to ask
for federal assistance to drive

1645
01:42:59,960 --> 01:43:03,760
the Mormons out of Nauvoo.
And the president of the United

1646
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:10,720
States said I can't be involved
with with with using U.S. troops

1647
01:43:10,720 --> 01:43:15,000
to persecute a religious
community out of out of a state.

1648
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:19,680
But so they, they, as Brigham
said they had to complete the

1649
01:43:19,680 --> 01:43:24,000
temple with a trowel in one hand
and a sword in the other,

1650
01:43:24,280 --> 01:43:27,960
essentially.
And they were able to, and, and

1651
01:43:27,960 --> 01:43:29,760
they were basically getting
robbed of their property.

1652
01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:32,080
Their property was going to be
worthless and they had to sell

1653
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:35,080
it for hardly anything.
And a lot of it actually didn't

1654
01:43:35,080 --> 01:43:38,480
get sold for hardly anything,
from what I understand.

1655
01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:42,080
And so they were again being
robbed of everything they had

1656
01:43:42,080 --> 01:43:45,600
built and created again, just
like they were in Missouri.

1657
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:50,320
And they, but they tried to be
as prepared as they could.

1658
01:43:50,320 --> 01:43:52,800
I think that's one of Brigham
Young's strengths as a leader

1659
01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:56,960
was that he was really great at
organizing and really great at

1660
01:43:56,960 --> 01:43:59,880
trying to unite their efforts to
first complete the temple and

1661
01:43:59,880 --> 01:44:04,800
then secondly to start the
exodus westward and to

1662
01:44:04,800 --> 01:44:07,600
concentrate their efforts and
their, you know, not just

1663
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:10,680
spiritually, but their temporal
efforts working together.

1664
01:44:10,680 --> 01:44:15,360
And you said in the temple, they
actually all made a pledge after

1665
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:18,760
the endowments that they would
help all the poor who were in

1666
01:44:18,760 --> 01:44:21,040
the church gather out West with
them.

1667
01:44:21,040 --> 01:44:25,040
So that would take an enormous
sacrifice to not just, not just

1668
01:44:25,040 --> 01:44:28,520
those who had some means to be
able to travel out West, but

1669
01:44:28,640 --> 01:44:31,320
help everyone else who does have
means to travel out West.

1670
01:44:31,320 --> 01:44:33,560
But Brigham really tried to
prepare.

1671
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:38,400
And I think even in spite of his
desire to prepare, he, he, he

1672
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:41,520
probably felt that he they could
have been a bit more successful.

1673
01:44:41,520 --> 01:44:44,280
He might have had some
unrealistic expectations, but

1674
01:44:44,280 --> 01:44:47,480
what he was able to accomplish
was really miraculous.

1675
01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:52,880
And the the initial pioneer
party, as I understand it, they

1676
01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:58,480
didn't have a single person die
on the initial pioneer

1677
01:44:59,240 --> 01:45:02,200
expedition.
I think they had over 150 men

1678
01:45:02,200 --> 01:45:05,920
right on the initial expedition
to the Salt Lake Valley and a

1679
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:08,760
couple women.
And they were able to do that

1680
01:45:09,120 --> 01:45:11,280
relatively safely.
I think we're, you know, Brigham

1681
01:45:11,280 --> 01:45:13,880
got and some of the others did
get sick at certain times.

1682
01:45:13,880 --> 01:45:18,000
And Brigham was actually on his
deathbed from whatever sickness

1683
01:45:18,000 --> 01:45:20,400
he contracted, but he was
fortunately able to recover.

1684
01:45:20,840 --> 01:45:24,320
But I do think that there are
others who kind of wanted to

1685
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:27,680
push things a little bit more.
So on the second trek, W there

1686
01:45:27,680 --> 01:45:30,920
was Brigham had given strict
instructions that they needed to

1687
01:45:30,920 --> 01:45:34,200
have like three years worth of
provisions before coming out to

1688
01:45:34,200 --> 01:45:36,640
Utah.
And they need to try to make

1689
01:45:36,640 --> 01:45:38,960
sure they have enough.
They're they're taking along a

1690
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:42,360
certain number of the poor with
them to fulfill their covenant

1691
01:45:42,360 --> 01:45:44,920
in the temple.
And what kind of happened was he

1692
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:48,400
set John Smith in charge of the
second pioneer company out to

1693
01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:51,960
Utah while the Brigham and the
12 LED the first pioneer

1694
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:58,360
company.
But John Taylor and Harley Pratt

1695
01:45:58,360 --> 01:46:04,680
were a bit over that kind of
took over the second pioneer

1696
01:46:04,680 --> 01:46:11,520
company that kind of about we
need to have a certain number of

1697
01:46:11,520 --> 01:46:14,480
years of provisions, you know,
just to make sure that

1698
01:46:14,480 --> 01:46:16,560
everyone's safe.
And they kind of got bit

1699
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:19,760
overzealous and they enlarged it
to a lot more people than they

1700
01:46:19,760 --> 01:46:22,160
had rather compared to their
provisions.

1701
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:25,040
And so I think that somewhat
contributed to some of the

1702
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:29,240
difficulty in the early years.
But I do think that in spite of

1703
01:46:29,240 --> 01:46:32,720
the difficulties that it is
nothing less than miraculous

1704
01:46:32,720 --> 01:46:34,640
that they were as successful as
they were.

1705
01:46:35,080 --> 01:46:38,560
And I think that to try to blame
the handcart.

1706
01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:41,280
So the handcarts were actually
relatively successful.

1707
01:46:41,280 --> 01:46:44,760
What as well, There was only
that one season where there and

1708
01:46:45,040 --> 01:46:47,480
it wasn't Brigham Young telling
people to leave late in the

1709
01:46:47,480 --> 01:46:49,680
season.
It was other local church

1710
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:53,920
leaders that were involved with
making the decision to.

1711
01:46:54,440 --> 01:46:58,680
And it was to a degree with the
Martin and Willie handcart

1712
01:46:58,680 --> 01:47:01,160
companies.
They kind of knew that they were

1713
01:47:01,160 --> 01:47:04,200
taking risks with it because
there was actually one church

1714
01:47:04,200 --> 01:47:07,400
leader who who said, hey, I
think it's wiser for us to

1715
01:47:07,760 --> 01:47:10,840
winter.
And he he did convince some

1716
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:15,080
families not to go late in the
season, but unfortunately most

1717
01:47:15,080 --> 01:47:17,960
of the others went anyway.
But they did it on their own

1718
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:20,560
kind of prerogative.
And you know what?

1719
01:47:20,560 --> 01:47:23,760
What one of the strengths of
Brigham's character was that he

1720
01:47:24,080 --> 01:47:30,120
really was able to what's the
term for get all the Saints?

1721
01:47:30,360 --> 01:47:33,800
He he really got the Saints on
their feet to immediately go and

1722
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:37,160
rescue those Saints that were
stranded out on the plane.

1723
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:39,480
Yeah, mobilized.
He really mobilized the the

1724
01:47:39,480 --> 01:47:43,760
people to to rescue those who
encountered that tragedy.

1725
01:47:43,760 --> 01:47:48,000
And if you if you discount that
tragedy, which Brigham Young

1726
01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:51,480
felt was unnecessary because his
instructions had been never to

1727
01:47:51,480 --> 01:47:54,920
leave late in the season, you
don't want to risk being caught

1728
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:59,280
in the snow in Wyoming.
You know, it was without any

1729
01:47:59,640 --> 01:48:04,040
supplies or anything.
And so, you know, I do think

1730
01:48:04,040 --> 01:48:07,760
that Brigham really is great at
mobilizing the Saints to work

1731
01:48:07,760 --> 01:48:10,360
together.
I think that the perpetual

1732
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:14,040
immigration fund that he set up
was actually just an, an

1733
01:48:14,040 --> 01:48:18,720
ingenious way to continue to
facilitate the principle of the

1734
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:21,720
gathering that Joseph Smith
taught was so important was that

1735
01:48:21,720 --> 01:48:26,880
they were able to get all the
Saints to continue to donate and

1736
01:48:26,880 --> 01:48:31,440
support additional Saints to be
able to come out and gather.

1737
01:48:31,760 --> 01:48:36,200
So, yeah, I, I think that it's,
you know, there's, there's

1738
01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:38,960
difficulties, but I think that's
nothing short than miraculous

1739
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:40,560
that they had the success that
they did.

1740
01:48:41,400 --> 01:48:43,360
Absolutely.
Kimberly, did you have something

1741
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:46,800
you wanted to add?
Yeah, I just have to add this

1742
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:49,920
really quickly.
So just Speaking of the Martin

1743
01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:54,880
Hancart Company, there was 576
he began on the trek and says at

1744
01:48:54,880 --> 01:48:58,200
least 145 died.
And I just have to read you this

1745
01:48:58,200 --> 01:49:03,960
quote because it says that years
later that several Saints were

1746
01:49:03,960 --> 01:49:07,320
conversing about the incident.
Their criticisms of the leaders

1747
01:49:07,320 --> 01:49:10,400
fell upon the ears of an elderly
man who had been a member of the

1748
01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:12,800
company.
After listening for a while he

1749
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:16,520
finally rose and said, I ask you
to stop the criticism.

1750
01:49:16,760 --> 01:49:18,920
You are discussing a matter you
know nothing about.

1751
01:49:19,160 --> 01:49:20,520
Cold.
His cold.

1752
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:23,640
Historical facts mean nothing
here for they give no proper

1753
01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:25,800
interpretation of the questions
involved.

1754
01:49:26,120 --> 01:49:28,960
We suffered beyond anything you
can imagine and many died of

1755
01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:32,560
exposure and starvation.
But did you ever hear a survivor

1756
01:49:32,560 --> 01:49:35,080
of that company utter a word of
criticism?

1757
01:49:36,040 --> 01:49:39,560
Not one of the company ever
pasta sized or left the the

1758
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:41,440
church.
Because every one of us came

1759
01:49:41,440 --> 01:49:44,400
through with the absolute
knowledge that God lives for, we

1760
01:49:44,400 --> 01:49:46,800
became acquainted with Him in
our extremities.

1761
01:49:47,840 --> 01:49:54,440
Wow, Brigham, in my opinion,
does not get enough credit for

1762
01:49:54,440 --> 01:49:59,120
getting the Saints West.
And not only does he not get

1763
01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:04,520
enough credit for that, there's
there's there's a moment within

1764
01:50:04,520 --> 01:50:09,560
Nauvoo where Brigham, it's
telling everyone, get ready.

1765
01:50:09,560 --> 01:50:12,680
Like Jacob had pointed out, get
as much provisions as you can,

1766
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:16,000
three years worth, whatever it
is, get ready to make that trip.

1767
01:50:16,360 --> 01:50:19,800
But there's something else
Brigham does while in Nauvoo in

1768
01:50:19,800 --> 01:50:23,200
preparation to go across the
plains into the Rocky Mountains

1769
01:50:23,560 --> 01:50:27,600
that he does that I think gets
overlooked.

1770
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:32,000
And that is as soon as the
temple's done, that thing's

1771
01:50:32,000 --> 01:50:36,400
operating 24 hours a day, right?
Brigham himself makes a journal

1772
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:40,160
entry that I was in the temple
all night performing ordinances.

1773
01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:44,960
Brigham understands how
important those ordinances are.

1774
01:50:45,280 --> 01:50:50,920
And he also understands that
just like you need temporal

1775
01:50:51,080 --> 01:50:55,840
preparations to to get through
this, the Saints are going to

1776
01:50:55,840 --> 01:50:57,640
need those temple blessings as
well.

1777
01:50:58,600 --> 01:51:03,240
I could only imagine what
Brigham must have thought as as

1778
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:06,240
he's getting ready to do this.
He knows right?

1779
01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:10,840
Look in in our modern day
society, by and large, unless

1780
01:51:10,840 --> 01:51:14,440
you're caught in a, in a
horrible active shooter

1781
01:51:14,440 --> 01:51:19,120
situation or whatever, we're not
really exposed to massive death,

1782
01:51:19,360 --> 01:51:23,480
right, folks, in Brigham's time,
this was a very real thing.

1783
01:51:23,480 --> 01:51:26,480
Not necessarily shootings, but
you know, just from pervasion,

1784
01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:30,960
privation and from exposure,
those sorts of things.

1785
01:51:30,960 --> 01:51:34,480
Death is always there.
So I imagine Brigham looking out

1786
01:51:34,480 --> 01:51:37,400
on that congregation of Saints
understands they're going to

1787
01:51:37,400 --> 01:51:39,520
need these blessings because
some of them aren't going to

1788
01:51:39,520 --> 01:51:43,840
make it to where we need to go.
And he wanted the Saints to be

1789
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:49,080
spiritually prepared as well as
as temporally right that that

1790
01:51:49,080 --> 01:51:51,520
they could lose, you know, if
someone was lost along the

1791
01:51:51,520 --> 01:51:55,520
trail, it's not the end.
And I think that's something

1792
01:51:55,520 --> 01:51:57,600
that that gets really
overlooked.

1793
01:51:58,000 --> 01:52:02,400
The, the other thing is, is that
Brigham does something that it's

1794
01:52:02,400 --> 01:52:05,520
really quite extraordinary.
And we have a lot of accounts of

1795
01:52:05,520 --> 01:52:10,120
this where he actually talks
about, you know, as they circle

1796
01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:12,920
the wagons for the night, they
have dances, right?

1797
01:52:12,920 --> 01:52:18,440
They, they spend time together,
not just in, in working, but in,

1798
01:52:18,440 --> 01:52:21,960
in forging bonds of friendship
through those sorts of things.

1799
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:28,600
Brigham is masterful, not just
at the the nuts and bolts of,

1800
01:52:28,680 --> 01:52:32,280
you know, just getting people
from point A to point B, but

1801
01:52:32,280 --> 01:52:34,560
also keeping their spirits up
along the way.

1802
01:52:35,840 --> 01:52:40,280
There's accounts of him giving
blessings on the on the trail as

1803
01:52:40,280 --> 01:52:43,400
well.
One lady in particular who had,

1804
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:47,640
I believe a wagon had rolled
over her leg and she was

1805
01:52:47,640 --> 01:52:50,840
suffering a lot.
And Brigham tended to her in

1806
01:52:50,840 --> 01:52:56,560
such a tender way, going back to
the Martin Willie handcart

1807
01:52:56,560 --> 01:52:59,720
company.
That was a horrible winter.

1808
01:52:59,760 --> 01:53:02,120
Look, all winters are horrible
in Wyoming.

1809
01:53:02,480 --> 01:53:05,720
I've done enough surveying in
that state to know that that's a

1810
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:09,560
rough place.
But that winter was especially

1811
01:53:09,560 --> 01:53:12,280
rough.
Now, by the time Brigham finds

1812
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:15,680
out that these Saints are in
trouble on the Plains, it's

1813
01:53:15,680 --> 01:53:17,840
conference time.
The weather's still pretty

1814
01:53:17,840 --> 01:53:21,560
decent.
But Brigham, there's something

1815
01:53:21,560 --> 01:53:25,440
with Brigham where he knows
something far worse is coming

1816
01:53:25,800 --> 01:53:30,000
more than just the average cold.
And had Brigham not acted when

1817
01:53:30,000 --> 01:53:35,360
he did in that very moment,
there's a sense of urgency when

1818
01:53:35,360 --> 01:53:37,840
Brigham says we're stopping
everything.

1819
01:53:37,840 --> 01:53:41,080
We've got to go get these folks
off the planes right now.

1820
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:45,320
And, and, and pardon me, I, I
get a little choked up when I

1821
01:53:45,320 --> 01:53:48,960
think about because he's really
their only chance at that point.

1822
01:53:50,440 --> 01:53:54,440
And, and people don't understand
that without Brigham's decisive

1823
01:53:54,440 --> 01:53:58,200
leadership at that moment,
coupled with what frankly, I

1824
01:53:58,200 --> 01:54:02,360
believe is, is a prophetic
mantle that fell upon him,

1825
01:54:02,560 --> 01:54:06,280
especially in that moment, he
gets an inkling of how bad this

1826
01:54:06,280 --> 01:54:09,320
is going to be.
And he acts with such

1827
01:54:09,320 --> 01:54:13,200
decisiveness in that moment that
they're able to go get him.

1828
01:54:15,640 --> 01:54:18,040
Does anyone else have anything
they want to add to this part

1829
01:54:18,040 --> 01:54:20,440
before we move on?
OK.

1830
01:54:20,680 --> 01:54:23,120
Well, you could say he received
the revelation, right?

1831
01:54:23,560 --> 01:54:26,640
Right.
I mean, people will say Brigham

1832
01:54:26,640 --> 01:54:29,840
Young didn't have any
revelations, but it's he had

1833
01:54:29,840 --> 01:54:32,320
revelations all the time.
It's just not the kind of

1834
01:54:32,320 --> 01:54:35,360
revelations they're hoping for.
But when you're you receive a

1835
01:54:35,360 --> 01:54:39,080
revelation to go out and save
the Saints, you know, if you're

1836
01:54:39,080 --> 01:54:41,360
that St. being saved, then
you're thankful.

1837
01:54:42,920 --> 01:54:45,760
You know that he's a prophet at
that time, receiving revelation.

1838
01:54:46,240 --> 01:54:49,640
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I just feel like he doesn't

1839
01:54:49,640 --> 01:54:54,280
get enough run and enough
recognition for how much he

1840
01:54:54,280 --> 01:54:58,960
loved his people and, and how
much he sacrificed personally

1841
01:54:58,960 --> 01:55:02,240
for him.
So we've been at this now two

1842
01:55:02,240 --> 01:55:06,040
hours and we could go on for
probably another six just

1843
01:55:06,040 --> 01:55:09,320
talking about all the cool stuff
he did during the Utah period.

1844
01:55:09,920 --> 01:55:13,040
But we're we're we're kind of
wrapping up on time and I quite

1845
01:55:13,040 --> 01:55:16,320
frankly don't want to keep
anyone up any longer than than I

1846
01:55:16,320 --> 01:55:20,880
have to.
Does anyone want to speak on

1847
01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:24,160
anything that they they think is
important before we move on

1848
01:55:24,160 --> 01:55:27,800
talking about what what
Brigham's importance is to the

1849
01:55:27,800 --> 01:55:33,080
restored gospel here, OK.
I can share a maybe a personal.

1850
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:36,520
So I was raised in the church.
Obviously I've I've always kind

1851
01:55:36,520 --> 01:55:40,160
of had a testimony and knowing
the gospel is true and committed

1852
01:55:40,160 --> 01:55:42,280
to the church and served a
mission and all of that stuff.

1853
01:55:42,280 --> 01:55:47,560
Right.
And you know, and going back to

1854
01:55:47,560 --> 01:55:50,800
something Kim brought out at the
beginning is that a lot of

1855
01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:53,800
members are just not acquainted
with the things that Brigham

1856
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:56,680
said and did.
And I as a history lover and

1857
01:55:56,680 --> 01:56:00,080
it's something my family always
prioritized and like I was

1858
01:56:00,080 --> 01:56:04,520
probably one of the better
informed members of the church

1859
01:56:05,040 --> 01:56:08,080
even at a young age on on a lot
of those historical details.

1860
01:56:08,360 --> 01:56:15,520
But but Brigham, even then there
was, he was a controversial

1861
01:56:15,520 --> 01:56:20,640
figure and, you know, 'cause I
had before my mission, I was at

1862
01:56:20,640 --> 01:56:25,000
college and, you know, met some
anti Mormons and they brought up

1863
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:27,680
the Adam God doctrine.
And I was not acquainted with

1864
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:29,480
that.
I mean, I'd heard vaguely, and I

1865
01:56:29,480 --> 01:56:32,120
think I might have asked my
seminary teacher once as a kid,

1866
01:56:32,480 --> 01:56:35,480
Hey, what's this?
I, I heard there's this thing

1867
01:56:35,480 --> 01:56:38,960
that of Adam God.
And he's like, oh, you know, he,

1868
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:42,120
he was just, you know, people
claim that Brigham Young said

1869
01:56:42,120 --> 01:56:43,640
stuff that he didn't actually
say.

1870
01:56:44,120 --> 01:56:46,360
And, you know, as a teenager, I,
I accepted that.

1871
01:56:46,680 --> 01:56:50,880
Well, I met these anti Mormons
and they were showing me some

1872
01:56:51,360 --> 01:56:53,760
quotes that looked like, came
from the Journal of discourse.

1873
01:56:53,760 --> 01:56:56,080
I was like, my grandma has those
on her bookshelf.

1874
01:56:56,080 --> 01:57:00,720
My grandpa had a set of those
that seems kind of official.

1875
01:57:00,720 --> 01:57:03,560
And, and I, I tracked it down.
And so I asked my institute

1876
01:57:03,560 --> 01:57:09,840
teacher, Hey, you know, is, is
this a thing?

1877
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:12,520
Like it looks like he actually
did say it wasn't taken out of,

1878
01:57:12,680 --> 01:57:15,360
you know, and, and Brigham and,
and my institute teacher was

1879
01:57:15,360 --> 01:57:17,640
trying to help me, you know,
prepare for my mission.

1880
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:19,480
You know, you don't want to get
your head out of the game at

1881
01:57:19,480 --> 01:57:21,320
that stage.
And so he was just like, yeah,

1882
01:57:22,640 --> 01:57:25,160
but it's, it's it was taken out
of context.

1883
01:57:25,160 --> 01:57:27,440
You know, the anti Mormons,
they're not honest in the way

1884
01:57:27,440 --> 01:57:29,800
they represent things.
And, you know, I was like, OK, I

1885
01:57:29,880 --> 01:57:33,680
I get that.
Well, I got home from my mission

1886
01:57:33,680 --> 01:57:39,320
and met some more anti Mormons
and I was just like, OK, so he

1887
01:57:39,440 --> 01:57:41,760
he wasn't he, he did actually
say these things.

1888
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:43,880
He wasn't taken out of context
because I actually read a lot

1889
01:57:43,880 --> 01:57:45,320
more of the source material at
that point.

1890
01:57:45,720 --> 01:57:52,960
And I was just like, well, if
it's like for me, I didn't care

1891
01:57:53,480 --> 01:57:57,600
if it was controversial.
I cared if it was true.

1892
01:57:58,240 --> 01:58:01,720
And you know, I was, I was doing
a summer job down in Texas.

1893
01:58:01,720 --> 01:58:04,360
I was reading and, and I just
decided to read the discourses

1894
01:58:04,360 --> 01:58:09,920
of Brigham Young and there's so
much just meat on that bone.

1895
01:58:10,080 --> 01:58:13,280
Like he talked about building up
Zion, getting out of Babylon,

1896
01:58:13,720 --> 01:58:18,040
you know, establishing autonomy
and self-reliance and

1897
01:58:18,040 --> 01:58:19,640
preparedness.
Like all of these things that

1898
01:58:19,640 --> 01:58:23,480
really resonated with me at that
point in my life, especially as

1899
01:58:23,480 --> 01:58:26,520
kind of like, you know, getting
ready for the apocalypse, doom

1900
01:58:26,520 --> 01:58:30,280
days, doomsday prepper type, you
know, and, and, and it just, I

1901
01:58:30,280 --> 01:58:34,240
was just on fire reading this,
the discourses of Brigham Young

1902
01:58:34,720 --> 01:58:38,240
and it got to the Adam God.
And I just remember I got a

1903
01:58:38,240 --> 01:58:40,880
testimony of Brigham Young.
I mean, I always had had kind of

1904
01:58:40,880 --> 01:58:43,720
that testimony and I had some
powerful experiences witnessing

1905
01:58:43,720 --> 01:58:45,640
personally to me of the
truthfulness of the Book of

1906
01:58:45,640 --> 01:58:47,480
Mormon and Joseph Smith's
prophetic mission.

1907
01:58:47,920 --> 01:58:50,840
I, I had not had the same
experience with Brigham Young

1908
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:54,520
until this, that summer when I
was reading those discourses.

1909
01:58:54,960 --> 01:59:00,480
And it's the same spirit that
that I had a testimony of Joseph

1910
01:59:00,480 --> 01:59:04,040
Smith and, and the Book of
Mormon and the the rest of the

1911
01:59:04,040 --> 01:59:08,160
restoration, that same spirit
testified to me that Brigham

1912
01:59:08,160 --> 01:59:12,800
Young was a prophet of God.
And, and so it took a little bit

1913
01:59:12,800 --> 01:59:16,000
more digging and kind of working
through some of these

1914
01:59:17,320 --> 01:59:19,920
contradictions because, you
know, there are some prominent

1915
01:59:20,400 --> 01:59:24,600
leaders of the modern church
that, you know, claimed that it

1916
01:59:24,600 --> 01:59:27,440
was a heresy to believe that
Adam was God and, you know, just

1917
01:59:27,440 --> 01:59:29,600
various things like that.
And I was like, what I thought

1918
01:59:29,600 --> 01:59:33,640
that prophet, you know, and I
thought the prophets were,

1919
01:59:33,640 --> 01:59:37,080
couldn't say anything wrong, you
know, when they were acting as a

1920
01:59:37,080 --> 01:59:39,600
prophet.
And, and so I, it took me, it

1921
01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:42,080
took me a little bit more time
to kind of reconcile and work

1922
01:59:42,080 --> 01:59:43,600
through some of those
contradictions.

1923
01:59:44,280 --> 01:59:48,520
But I, I could always fall back
on that, that testimony that I

1924
01:59:48,520 --> 01:59:52,280
got just plain reading the
source documents, reading the

1925
01:59:52,280 --> 01:59:53,880
discourses of Brigham Young for
myself.

1926
01:59:54,200 --> 01:59:56,520
And it's just an undeniable
spirit, to be honest.

1927
01:59:56,520 --> 01:59:59,440
So I I just wanted to, I guess
end with that.

1928
02:00:00,560 --> 02:00:03,640
No, that's good.
Kimberly.

1929
02:00:04,280 --> 02:00:05,840
What?
What's Brigham Young's

1930
02:00:05,880 --> 02:00:07,880
importance to the restored
gospel?

1931
02:00:09,920 --> 02:00:13,680
Well, like I kind of said
earlier, without Brigham Young,

1932
02:00:14,360 --> 02:00:15,600
what?
What do we?

1933
02:00:15,720 --> 02:00:20,040
Without Brigham Young, There's
no temple, there's no temple

1934
02:00:20,040 --> 02:00:22,200
ordinances, there's no stealing
power.

1935
02:00:22,920 --> 02:00:25,640
We don't have hardly any of the
revelations of Joseph Smith.

1936
02:00:27,000 --> 02:00:31,720
I mean, really Brigham Young, I
would say, is the Restoration,

1937
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:35,240
like I said before, Joseph
Smith, he gets the vision.

1938
02:00:35,520 --> 02:00:38,600
Kind of like Lehigh, right?
Lehigh gets the vision.

1939
02:00:39,040 --> 02:00:43,520
Who carries it on his work?
Nephi, Joseph Smith is getting

1940
02:00:43,520 --> 02:00:45,760
the vision.
He's getting the revelations.

1941
02:00:46,120 --> 02:00:49,400
Who's doing the work, President
Brigham Young.

1942
02:00:50,680 --> 02:00:53,520
He is the only one that carried
on the work of the Prophet

1943
02:00:53,520 --> 02:00:57,040
Joseph Smith.
And I, I think we all owe him,

1944
02:00:57,680 --> 02:01:01,520
love him or hate him, we all owe
him a debt of gratitude.

1945
02:01:01,520 --> 02:01:06,160
And I was going to say one thing
about Brigham Young.

1946
02:01:06,960 --> 02:01:10,080
I relate very well to Brigham
Young when we talked about like

1947
02:01:10,080 --> 02:01:15,240
his early, like, you know, his
early life and his challenges.

1948
02:01:15,840 --> 02:01:19,520
And I'm, I'm different.
I'm, I'm not, I wasn't raised in

1949
02:01:19,520 --> 02:01:23,680
a, the typical LDS home where
the gospel was handed to me.

1950
02:01:24,240 --> 02:01:27,120
You know, I, she had to fight
for it a lot.

1951
02:01:27,120 --> 02:01:30,840
And so when I wanted to learn
about what my religion was, you

1952
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:35,400
know, the gospel that I was
baptized into because I wasn't

1953
02:01:35,400 --> 02:01:38,920
taught in my home, I went to
Brigham Young to learn the

1954
02:01:38,920 --> 02:01:41,880
gospel.
And that's who converted me to

1955
02:01:41,880 --> 02:01:45,480
not only to Joseph Smith, but to
Jesus Christ.

1956
02:01:46,200 --> 02:01:51,680
And a lot of people talk about
that.

1957
02:01:51,680 --> 02:01:54,720
We can't trust the historical
record because they're they're,

1958
02:01:54,840 --> 02:01:56,840
they're, you know, later
reminiscences.

1959
02:01:57,480 --> 02:02:01,320
And I just want to say that
they're forgetting about the

1960
02:02:01,320 --> 02:02:04,520
power of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost has the power to

1961
02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:06,320
bring all things to the
remembrance.

1962
02:02:06,320 --> 02:02:08,400
And this work is a spiritual
work.

1963
02:02:08,760 --> 02:02:11,800
And a lot of the experiences
people had were spiritual, even

1964
02:02:11,800 --> 02:02:13,560
if they didn't understand them
at the time.

1965
02:02:14,160 --> 02:02:17,160
And so when people are writing
reminiscences, it's being

1966
02:02:17,160 --> 02:02:20,000
brought to the remembrance by
the power of the Holy Ghost.

1967
02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:23,120
And so I believe our history is
a prophetic history.

1968
02:02:23,480 --> 02:02:26,120
It's written just as the
scriptures are written by the

1969
02:02:26,120 --> 02:02:28,400
Holy Ghost.
And so it takes the Holy Ghost

1970
02:02:28,400 --> 02:02:31,880
in order to understand our
history and to appreciate

1971
02:02:31,880 --> 02:02:35,360
Brigham Young for the modern day
Moses that he is.

1972
02:02:35,360 --> 02:02:40,480
And, and I have a lot more to
say about him, but I'll just

1973
02:02:40,480 --> 02:02:43,440
stand there.
Fantastic.

1974
02:02:43,440 --> 02:02:44,760
Thanks.
Sean, you had something.

1975
02:02:46,360 --> 02:02:50,720
Yes, the one thing that I wanted
to mention and I, and I think it

1976
02:02:50,720 --> 02:02:55,560
can't be emphasized enough, when
you look at the contending

1977
02:02:55,560 --> 02:03:01,000
parties at, at the, at the death
of Joseph Smith, previous to the

1978
02:03:01,000 --> 02:03:06,160
death of Joseph Smith and around
his, his death, those contending

1979
02:03:06,160 --> 02:03:10,920
parties, those who stayed
behind, some let went to other

1980
02:03:10,920 --> 02:03:16,480
States and and so forth.
The vast majority of those for

1981
02:03:16,480 --> 02:03:21,640
all practical purposes are
defunct because even though they

1982
02:03:21,640 --> 02:03:26,320
may still exist, if you look at
the character of what they

1983
02:03:26,320 --> 02:03:31,240
preach, it hardly resembles
anything of the Mormonism of

1984
02:03:31,240 --> 02:03:35,520
Joseph Smith's time.
You look at the community of

1985
02:03:35,520 --> 02:03:37,920
Christ, which used to be called
the Church of Jesus Christ of

1986
02:03:37,920 --> 02:03:43,320
Latter Day Saints.
I watched this several videos

1987
02:03:43,320 --> 02:03:47,080
from a historian from that
organization and he basically

1988
02:03:47,080 --> 02:03:50,560
stated when they were they they
found out that Joseph indeed

1989
02:03:50,560 --> 02:03:55,480
lived, that he indeed received a
revelation, taught and lived

1990
02:03:55,480 --> 02:04:00,440
plural marriage.
They decided to start distancing

1991
02:04:00,440 --> 02:04:07,600
themselves from Joseph Smith and
nowadays they they look at the

1992
02:04:08,200 --> 02:04:10,120
the Book of Mormon as inspired
fiction.

1993
02:04:11,320 --> 02:04:18,840
I, I went through their, their
temple that they have in, in

1994
02:04:19,160 --> 02:04:22,640
Independence and I went through
their visitor center and

1995
02:04:22,640 --> 02:04:24,560
everything.
And that you watch a short video

1996
02:04:24,560 --> 02:04:28,400
kind of like you do when you go
through LDS visitor centers.

1997
02:04:29,880 --> 02:04:32,200
And it was interesting.
They're talking about the the

1998
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:35,880
account of the first vision, but
they said that Joseph Smith just

1999
02:04:35,880 --> 02:04:38,160
had an experience with the
divine and that's how they left

2000
02:04:38,160 --> 02:04:42,480
it.
And I was thinking to myself,

2001
02:04:42,480 --> 02:04:46,960
wow, this is dry.
And it seems like they're

2002
02:04:46,960 --> 02:04:48,840
completely ashamed of that whole
history.

2003
02:04:50,040 --> 02:04:54,240
And it's like Kimberly brought
out Brigham Young is very

2004
02:04:54,240 --> 02:04:56,960
instrumental, instrumental in
preserving all that.

2005
02:04:58,320 --> 02:05:01,480
And to those critics of Brigham
Young about how he wanted to

2006
02:05:03,080 --> 02:05:07,080
revise all the history and, and,
and everything, why did he leave

2007
02:05:07,080 --> 02:05:12,640
in all the entries where Joseph
Smith is saying things that are,

2008
02:05:14,000 --> 02:05:16,920
can be perceived as being
contrary to the principle?

2009
02:05:18,640 --> 02:05:20,240
Those things weren't hidden from
the record.

2010
02:05:20,240 --> 02:05:25,480
They, they were there.
And, and as far as remnants,

2011
02:05:25,720 --> 02:05:29,600
reminences are concerned and
everything, most of us, most of

2012
02:05:29,600 --> 02:05:33,960
our lives are undocumented.
Nevertheless, these things did

2013
02:05:33,960 --> 02:05:37,160
happen.
True, we can't prove things

2014
02:05:37,160 --> 02:05:41,240
happen if there's no record, but
you can't prove that it didn't

2015
02:05:41,240 --> 02:05:46,240
happen either.
And when you compare people's

2016
02:05:46,240 --> 02:05:51,440
recollections, especially when
you have such a vast variety and

2017
02:05:51,440 --> 02:05:54,720
you begin to connect the dots
and see a lot of common

2018
02:05:54,720 --> 02:05:58,880
denominators, you can establish
with a great deal of confidence

2019
02:05:58,880 --> 02:06:01,280
that certain events did take,
did take place.

2020
02:06:02,280 --> 02:06:07,600
And so I for one, I'm, I'm very
grateful that Brigham Young did

2021
02:06:07,600 --> 02:06:11,280
what he did and did what he had
to do to preserve it.

2022
02:06:12,080 --> 02:06:14,000
And so that that's all I have to
say.

2023
02:06:15,080 --> 02:06:17,960
Thanks, Sean.
Jacob, go ahead, man.

2024
02:06:19,040 --> 02:06:23,560
Well, yeah, there's just, you
know, I have got a deep, I think

2025
02:06:23,560 --> 02:06:27,200
the way you get a deep
perspective, Brigham Young is to

2026
02:06:27,440 --> 02:06:31,520
earnestly study his words, you
know, that they are available

2027
02:06:31,520 --> 02:06:33,760
and it.
It takes the time commitment to

2028
02:06:34,160 --> 02:06:38,200
start to read his sermons, but
there is so much light and truth

2029
02:06:38,200 --> 02:06:42,960
in there that that is why so
many people have an unshakable

2030
02:06:42,960 --> 02:06:47,520
testimony of Brigham Young as a
prophet of God in spite of all

2031
02:06:47,520 --> 02:06:50,640
the railing accusations that
could be made against him.

2032
02:06:50,640 --> 02:06:53,920
That all the you know it, it
doesn't matter when you've got

2033
02:06:53,920 --> 02:06:57,920
that testimony and you know what
is in his heart from the spirit

2034
02:06:57,920 --> 02:07:03,000
bearing witness to you.
Just, you know, I, I absolutely

2035
02:07:03,000 --> 02:07:06,480
agree that as was mentioned
early in the presentation, that

2036
02:07:06,480 --> 02:07:12,520
basically, you know, over, you
know, 95, maybe 99% of what

2037
02:07:12,520 --> 02:07:16,640
Brigham Young taught doctorally
you can show had its links to

2038
02:07:16,640 --> 02:07:21,440
Joseph Smith in some way.
I think that so a lot of people

2039
02:07:21,440 --> 02:07:24,840
will criticize blood atonement
when I think when it comes down

2040
02:07:24,840 --> 02:07:27,600
to, I think blood atonement was
just a mixture of capital

2041
02:07:27,600 --> 02:07:34,080
punishment and the the violent
Western rhetoric that could, you

2042
02:07:34,080 --> 02:07:38,400
know, those were what that was.
And I think there's a great

2043
02:07:38,400 --> 02:07:42,600
quote that kind of addresses the
accusations of Brigham Young

2044
02:07:42,600 --> 02:07:46,480
being a tyrant and also the
Utah, early Utah being a period

2045
02:07:46,480 --> 02:07:49,560
of violence.
And this is in Thomas

2046
02:07:49,560 --> 02:07:53,000
Alexander's recent biography of
Brigham Young and the expansion

2047
02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:55,760
of the Mormon faith.
He said all too often critics of

2048
02:07:55,760 --> 02:07:57,840
Brigham Young have assumed that
he controlled the Latter Day

2049
02:07:57,840 --> 02:07:59,760
Saints through fear, coercion
and violence.

2050
02:08:00,160 --> 02:08:03,000
We should understand, however,
that these methods can control a

2051
02:08:03,000 --> 02:08:05,880
people only if they have no way
of escaping the system.

2052
02:08:06,160 --> 02:08:09,280
In Utah, most of those who want
to leave the territory generally

2053
02:08:09,280 --> 02:08:12,400
either did so, or they remained
and fashioned their lives

2054
02:08:12,400 --> 02:08:13,880
according to their own
persuasion.

2055
02:08:14,280 --> 02:08:17,000
Clearly, a few who want to leave
cannot do so because of

2056
02:08:17,000 --> 02:08:19,120
violence.
The parish Potter murders are

2057
02:08:19,120 --> 02:08:21,560
witness to that.
Many of those who left Utah

2058
02:08:21,560 --> 02:08:24,440
chose moderate Mormonism by
joining with Emma Smith in the

2059
02:08:24,440 --> 02:08:28,000
reorganization under her oldest
son with Joseph Smith, or like

2060
02:08:28,000 --> 02:08:31,160
Wilford Woodruff's friend
Alexander Badlam, some moved to

2061
02:08:31,160 --> 02:08:32,880
California to engage in
business.

2062
02:08:33,080 --> 02:08:36,480
Some businessmen, like Brother
Samuel, David Joseph and Matthew

2063
02:08:36,480 --> 02:08:39,360
Walker, and the Godbyites, an
LDS offshoot of business people

2064
02:08:39,360 --> 02:08:42,680
and intellectuals, remained in
Utah to run businesses outside

2065
02:08:42,680 --> 02:08:45,640
of the Mormon fold.
Violence did exist in Utah, as

2066
02:08:45,640 --> 02:08:49,480
historians Scott, Thomas and
Polly have shown.

2067
02:08:49,760 --> 02:08:52,440
Michael Quinn has argued that
Utah harbored a, quote, culture

2068
02:08:52,440 --> 02:08:54,400
of violence.
Most of it, however, is,

2069
02:08:54,400 --> 02:08:57,720
Thomas's study has shown, was
uncoordinated vigilante action

2070
02:08:57,720 --> 02:08:59,440
or commonplace criminal
activities.

2071
02:08:59,640 --> 02:09:03,320
Available statistics show that
Utah was less violent than other

2072
02:09:03,320 --> 02:09:06,320
areas of the West.
In fact, Brigham Young wanted

2073
02:09:06,320 --> 02:09:08,720
apostates to leave the community
so he could build Saints.

2074
02:09:09,040 --> 02:09:11,280
You now see apostates clear out,
he said.

2075
02:09:12,960 --> 02:09:16,360
As Polly Arid has reminded us,
she has given us case studies of

2076
02:09:16,360 --> 02:09:19,360
seven individuals who wanted to
leave and succeeded without too

2077
02:09:19,360 --> 02:09:22,040
much difficulty.
All of them believed that

2078
02:09:22,040 --> 02:09:24,600
violence existed in the
community, but Eric cited only

2079
02:09:24,600 --> 02:09:27,880
Swiss immigrants, Frederick
Loba, who made specific charges

2080
02:09:27,880 --> 02:09:31,440
there clearly questionable.
In many cases, those who wanted

2081
02:09:31,440 --> 02:09:34,200
to leave could not because they
were too poor or they owed debts

2082
02:09:34,200 --> 02:09:36,640
and they could not pay.
At times the creditors and

2083
02:09:36,640 --> 02:09:39,360
debtors could not agree on the
extent or even the existence of

2084
02:09:39,360 --> 02:09:41,360
the debt.
Such disagreements led to some

2085
02:09:41,360 --> 02:09:44,200
cases of property confiscation
by bishops or in several

2086
02:09:44,200 --> 02:09:47,320
instances, a demand by Brigham
Young that the debtor pay what

2087
02:09:47,560 --> 02:09:49,520
Young believed he owed before
leaving.

2088
02:09:49,840 --> 02:09:52,280
A more pertinent question is why
would the Mormon people

2089
02:09:52,520 --> 02:09:55,920
persevere by traveling 1000
miles to Utah and then dispersed

2090
02:09:55,920 --> 02:09:59,120
throughout the Mountain West
where they chose to and relative

2091
02:09:59,120 --> 02:10:03,200
poverty on on hardscrabble
farms, house their families and

2092
02:10:03,200 --> 02:10:07,360
wagon boxes and dugouts and dig
irrigation ditches?

2093
02:10:07,680 --> 02:10:09,800
They might have abandoned
Mormonism and remained in the

2094
02:10:09,800 --> 02:10:13,040
Midwest on prosperous farms
blessed by summer rain.

2095
02:10:13,040 --> 02:10:15,440
It seems ludicrous to believe
that they did what they did

2096
02:10:15,440 --> 02:10:17,840
because of coercion.
Rather, they found it in

2097
02:10:17,840 --> 02:10:20,920
Mormonism and Brigham Young's
teachings of philosophy and way

2098
02:10:20,920 --> 02:10:24,280
of life that offered happiness
in this life and the expectation

2099
02:10:24,280 --> 02:10:27,240
of an exalted one after death
and the resurrection.

2100
02:10:28,840 --> 02:10:31,920
So I, I think that's a good
quote that I think summarizes

2101
02:10:31,920 --> 02:10:35,400
the contrast between the
spurious allegations that can be

2102
02:10:35,400 --> 02:10:40,560
made of or criticisms versus the
reality of how things actually

2103
02:10:40,560 --> 02:10:44,160
were in Utah.
And I think that that's truly

2104
02:10:44,160 --> 02:10:47,360
what it comes down to is, you
know, life is messy and there

2105
02:10:47,360 --> 02:10:50,880
you can always find things to
nitpick or criticize about

2106
02:10:51,520 --> 02:10:54,520
different historical figures and
no one is perfect.

2107
02:10:54,520 --> 02:10:58,600
But I think what's more way more
important is to find the truth

2108
02:10:58,640 --> 02:11:03,840
and the light and the revelation
and the knowledge that they that

2109
02:11:03,840 --> 02:11:05,680
you can really glean from
Brigham Young.

2110
02:11:05,680 --> 02:11:08,520
And that's my testimony.
And I say that in the name of

2111
02:11:08,520 --> 02:11:10,480
Jesus Christ, Amen.
Amen.

2112
02:11:12,640 --> 02:11:17,360
As, as I look around the
landscape of Mormonism right

2113
02:11:17,360 --> 02:11:23,640
now, one of the things that
concerns me most is how people

2114
02:11:24,600 --> 02:11:28,000
are quick and somewhat eager to
throw out Brigham Young.

2115
02:11:29,440 --> 02:11:35,880
And that spans the gamut of
Mormon expression from the LDS

2116
02:11:35,880 --> 02:11:38,880
church on down to to to
fundamentalist.

2117
02:11:38,880 --> 02:11:45,600
Now, I want to make this as
clear as I can, and I also want

2118
02:11:46,240 --> 02:11:50,040
folks who are Protestants to
know I'm this isn't meant as a

2119
02:11:50,040 --> 02:11:57,240
slam, but quite frankly, if we
unhook Brigham Young from the

2120
02:11:57,240 --> 02:12:00,960
Restoration, we don't have
anything that resembles

2121
02:12:00,960 --> 02:12:05,080
Mormonism as we've come to know
it and as it was revealed by

2122
02:12:05,080 --> 02:12:09,560
Joseph Smith, period.
Joseph revealed a lot of things,

2123
02:12:09,680 --> 02:12:14,240
and then Brigham went on to
organize those things by

2124
02:12:14,240 --> 02:12:17,280
Joseph's Commission, I might
add, especially when we start

2125
02:12:17,280 --> 02:12:21,240
talking about temple ordinances.
Joseph's direct Commission to

2126
02:12:21,240 --> 02:12:24,560
Brigham Young was systematize
and organize the endowment,

2127
02:12:26,040 --> 02:12:31,040
which he did.
It's under Brigham's, Brigham's

2128
02:12:31,040 --> 02:12:35,240
administration that many of the
things that we have come to hold

2129
02:12:35,240 --> 02:12:38,560
dear as Mormons come to full
fruition.

2130
02:12:39,360 --> 02:12:43,400
Look, they were willing to kill
Joseph just for saying the Canon

2131
02:12:43,400 --> 02:12:46,480
of scripture is closed.
Now you start getting into the

2132
02:12:46,480 --> 02:12:48,800
nature of God.
You start getting into plural

2133
02:12:48,800 --> 02:12:52,120
marriage, which upsets Victorian
era sensibilities.

2134
02:12:53,200 --> 02:12:56,880
Joseph didn't have the freedom
that Brigham did to expound on

2135
02:12:56,880 --> 02:13:00,960
these topics.
And these topics would come to

2136
02:13:00,960 --> 02:13:06,000
define the Mormonism that I
think all, all 55 of us, yeah,

2137
02:13:06,000 --> 02:13:10,760
five of us now enjoy to its
utmost.

2138
02:13:12,360 --> 02:13:17,920
When a loved one passes, as
Mormons, we can look back on

2139
02:13:17,920 --> 02:13:21,520
ceilings and we understand the
plan.

2140
02:13:22,520 --> 02:13:25,400
That comes because Brigham Young
held the line.

2141
02:13:26,000 --> 02:13:30,240
When things were at their worst,
the Lord and Joseph turned to

2142
02:13:30,240 --> 02:13:35,760
Brigham because in Brigham, you
had a guy who was just stubborn

2143
02:13:35,760 --> 02:13:38,680
enough to keep those things
going.

2144
02:13:39,880 --> 02:13:44,280
You have a man who comes
forward, who carves out a

2145
02:13:44,320 --> 02:13:50,360
magnificent city in the desert,
out of rock and sagebrush, right

2146
02:13:50,360 --> 02:13:54,440
next to a great big salty lake
that Bridger told him he would

2147
02:13:54,440 --> 02:14:01,560
never turn a a single crop in.
And so for those who want to

2148
02:14:01,560 --> 02:14:04,680
unhitch to Brigham Young, I
would say be very careful.

2149
02:14:05,720 --> 02:14:11,200
Understand what it is you stand
to lose by throwing Brigham out

2150
02:14:11,200 --> 02:14:15,160
of the Restoration.
Because once you do, you've lost

2151
02:14:15,160 --> 02:14:18,080
a lot of these things.
You want to call DNC 132

2152
02:14:18,080 --> 02:14:22,640
Brigham's invention, which it's
clearly not that came from from

2153
02:14:22,640 --> 02:14:26,160
from Joseph.
But Brigham was the one who was

2154
02:14:26,160 --> 02:14:30,120
able to expound on it because he
had the freedom to do so in the

2155
02:14:30,120 --> 02:14:33,200
space to do so.
What he got left, you got

2156
02:14:33,200 --> 02:14:35,440
Protestantism with some
different buildings.

2157
02:14:36,280 --> 02:14:38,680
And again, I'm not trying to
slam Protestantism.

2158
02:14:39,160 --> 02:14:42,320
I'm just saying that's what you
have left.

2159
02:14:42,800 --> 02:14:45,480
So you have to be very careful
if you decide you want to throw

2160
02:14:45,480 --> 02:14:48,360
Brigham Young out.
The other thing I want to say,

2161
02:14:49,520 --> 02:14:53,640
don't be afraid to teach your
kids Brigham Young, right?

2162
02:14:55,280 --> 02:14:59,360
So many times people turn away
from Brigham because he says

2163
02:14:59,400 --> 02:15:02,760
uncomfortable things.
We have to wrestle with those.

2164
02:15:02,760 --> 02:15:06,920
We have to make peace with those
as adherence to the Restoration.

2165
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:10,600
But never be afraid to teach
your kids Brigham Young and

2166
02:15:10,600 --> 02:15:12,480
teach the significance of
Brigham Young.

2167
02:15:13,280 --> 02:15:16,480
Nothing broke my heart quite
like watching.

2168
02:15:18,080 --> 02:15:23,760
And I'll just call it out the
the LGBTQ protests at Brigham

2169
02:15:23,760 --> 02:15:28,000
Young University where they
scroll the name Racist across

2170
02:15:28,000 --> 02:15:34,600
Brigham's statue.
We are dangerously close to

2171
02:15:34,600 --> 02:15:38,280
throwing him out.
And if it gets done, there will

2172
02:15:38,280 --> 02:15:41,640
be hell to pay.
Quite literally, I fear in the

2173
02:15:41,640 --> 02:15:44,800
afterlife, we must preserve his
legacy.

2174
02:15:45,120 --> 02:15:48,760
It's worth preserving.
Do your research on Brigham.

2175
02:15:48,960 --> 02:15:53,120
I promise you he's not as scary
as what what others would would

2176
02:15:53,360 --> 02:15:56,080
point out.
There's a lot of things about

2177
02:15:56,080 --> 02:16:02,560
Brigham that are that are
beautiful that are that are.

2178
02:16:04,320 --> 02:16:06,600
That's a confirmation to his
prophetic column.

2179
02:16:06,920 --> 02:16:09,440
And that's my testimony, and I
leave it in the name of Jesus

2180
02:16:09,440 --> 02:16:13,240
Christ, Amen.
All right, before we wrap up,

2181
02:16:13,240 --> 02:16:15,120
does anyone have anything else
they want to add?

2182
02:16:16,200 --> 02:16:19,400
There's a new movie actually
coming out defending Brigham

2183
02:16:19,400 --> 02:16:21,160
Young.
I don't know if you're aware of

2184
02:16:21,240 --> 02:16:24,040
the new movie that the
Interpreter Foundation is

2185
02:16:25,240 --> 02:16:30,440
releasing in October.
So the, the new movie is 6 days

2186
02:16:30,440 --> 02:16:34,440
in August about the succession
crisis and it's going to be in

2187
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:38,440
theaters on October 10th of this
year.

2188
02:16:38,440 --> 02:16:41,400
So you can look up that trailer
online.

2189
02:16:41,400 --> 02:16:42,680
And I'm, I'm really excited for
that.

2190
02:16:42,680 --> 02:16:46,240
It's from the so, so it's like a
follow up to the witnesses

2191
02:16:46,240 --> 02:16:49,959
movie.
If you guys saw witnesses, I, I

2192
02:16:49,959 --> 02:16:51,200
actually still need to see that
one.

2193
02:16:51,200 --> 02:16:55,799
I'm, I'm bad for having a dozen
people recommend it and haven't

2194
02:16:55,920 --> 02:16:57,440
got around to seeing that one
yet.

2195
02:16:57,440 --> 02:16:59,840
So I need to watch that first
about the Book of Mormon

2196
02:16:59,840 --> 02:17:03,760
witnesses and then six days in
August is about Brigham Young's

2197
02:17:03,760 --> 02:17:05,799
faithfulness and the succession
crisis.

2198
02:17:05,799 --> 02:17:07,000
So.
Perfect.

2199
02:17:08,000 --> 02:17:11,360
All right, well, look, I love
and respect each one of you.

2200
02:17:11,360 --> 02:17:15,120
I I'm, I'm a big fan of the work
you do in defending the gospel.

2201
02:17:15,520 --> 02:17:18,360
And I thank you so much for
being home.

2202
02:17:18,680 --> 02:17:54,320
So all right, bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2203
02:17:54,320 --> 02:17:55,719
Renegade podcast.