Episode #144: The Prophecy Of The Lamanite Prophet W/Moroni Lopez Jessop

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One of the things I really love
about Mormonism is that because

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it has its own culture, it has
its own stories and traditions.

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Now it's up to us to parse those
stories and traditions out and

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then decide if they're
doctrinally based or just ideas.

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Today on the podcast, we're
going to cover a topic that will

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require us to do just that.
Back in the early days of the

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restoration, there was an idea
that in the last days a Lamanite

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prophet would arise and set
certain things right within

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Mormonism and what came to be
known as the prophecy of the

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Lamanite prophet.
Now, Moroni Lopez Jessup joins

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me fresh off of his Sunstone
talk about this very subject to

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take a look at the story and
teaching.

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We cover where this idea
started, how it was understood

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by early Mormons, how it fell
out of favor with the LDS

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church, how it was kept alive by
Mormon fundamentalists, and what

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its relevance is today given the
gift of hindsight.

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That's next on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Moroni, What's going on, man?

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Hey, how are you doing?
Good.

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How's how's?
Been a while since I've been on

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the podcast.
I know, been been about two

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years actually, I was thinking
about that here just a few

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minutes ago.
We're going to have to try to do

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this a little more frequently.
So how's Sunstone going?

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Well, it hasn't quite started
yet.

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It starts Thursday.
Of course.

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Thursday they only have one
speaker and it's in the evening,

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but then the whole, the rest of
the symposium starts Friday and

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and goes through Saturday.
So we're just, we're just a

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couple of days away from the
start.

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Nice.
Been back up in Utah kicking

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around.
You see anyone you you've been

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hanging out with family or
anything like that.

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Yeah, right now hanging out with
friends and then tonight we move

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over to stay with some family.
And then after that I moved to a

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hotel close to the University of
Utah.

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And that's where Sunstone's
going to be this year.

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It's going to be at the student
building at the University of

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Utah.
So go utes.

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Go Utes that's right, that's
right.

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Well, I think it's an unknown
doctrine of the restored gospel

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that every time ABYU fan cries,
an Angel gets its wings.

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I'm I'm pretty sure that's,
that's actually how that goes.

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But no, dude.
Good.

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Yeah, it's really good to have
you back on.

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And when?
When are you talking at

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Sunstone?
I am talking at 4:25 PM on

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Friday, August 3rd.
Perfect.

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No, August 2nd, I'm sorry,
August 2nd.

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And then my wife, Andrea Jessup,
is speaking with Anne Hatch on

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Women of the Priesthood at
12:25, I believe.

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Dude, that's good stuff.
I, you know, I, I know Anne

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pretty well and I know, know
Andrea pretty well and and

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they're both great ladies.
I expect that they're going to

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kill it there.
So, and I'm sure you're.

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Just as good.
So I think that, you know, my

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topic is, you know, less
interesting than theirs.

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They're talking on women and the
priesthood and Mormon

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fundamentalism.
Sunstone has been advertising

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their talk.
So I think that they're going to

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have a lot more people go to
theirs then I'm going to have

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people going to mine.
Well, that's, that's both good

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and bad, right?
Like I always thought if I had

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to give a, a, a talk at
something like that, not sure

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I'd do it in the 1st place, but
if I did, I'd be like, yeah, the

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less people, the better off
we're all going to be so and.

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Well also I think that people
want to hear what the sisters

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have to say on things.
I mean you know US men, we talk

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ad nauseam and they want to hear
what the sisters opinions are.

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And of course, you can't pick
any stronger women than Anne,

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Hatch and Andrea.
Right.

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The the other thing I'll say is
I feel like fundamentalism, if

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we're smart, we could have a
moment right now, right?

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Because there's a lot of
questions that are getting asked

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in the mainstream LDS church
that, quite frankly, I feel like

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fundamentalists are especially
geared at answering, right,

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Women in the priesthood,
Heavenly Mother, right?

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I mean, I remember just a couple
years ago, there was a talk

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given by a general authority in
the LDS Church.

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And he goes, yeah, we just don't
have that much information on

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our Mother in Heaven.
And I'm like, well, if you

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believe the Adam God doctrine,
you'd have more there than what

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you thought, right?
Which one?

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Yeah, right.
Yeah.

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And Mother in Heaven, which?
One, right.

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And so I feel like, I feel like
we're, we're coming up on a

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moment here as fundamentalist
that that we could really open

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our mouths in a way that that
maybe we haven't had a chance to

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do thus far because we do have a
lot of those answers that I

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think a lot of mainstream LDS
folks are looking for.

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Yeah.
And I think that their topic is

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in in particular very important
to the point that if they came

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to me and you know, and I did
talk to Sunstone about that, I

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cause I knew that they had
limited slots.

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And I told them, I said, if it
comes between picking Andrea's

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presentation and my
presentation, please pick

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Andrea's presentation because I
think that hers is vitally

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important.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

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So no, that's good stuff.
But we're going to talk about

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yours today.
What?

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What were we talking about?
We're going to talk about here.

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My presentation is called The
Lamanite Prophet in Mormon

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Fundamentalism.
OK, so for those 'cause like I

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said, there's about 60% of the
audience that is, or 50% I

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should say that are
fundamentalists.

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There's 40% that are active LDS
folks and then 10% who were

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never Mormons.
Real quick what?

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What is the premise of this
Lamanite profit?

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Well, since we have some people
that listen to you that aren't

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Mormon, I guess we should define
the term Lamanite.

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Yeah, Lamanite would mean those
who are of Native American

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descent or their ancestors,
specifically their ancestors.

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So when we talk about Lamanites,
that's we're not talking about

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flooring.
We're talking about a group of

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people that are indigenous to
the Americans.

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Right.
And so they're basically, you

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know, yeah, sailed over with,
with, with Lehigh and broke off

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and thus became the Lamanites.
And so that's that's kind of

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what, what that term means.
Good.

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No, that's a good place to
start.

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I wouldn't have thought about
that.

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And specifically what I'm doing
is I'm talking about Second Defy

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chapter 3.
And because there's various

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interpretations of that.
And for instance, in verse 2, it

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says that the land is declared
an inheritance of the seed of

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thy brethren for thy security
forever.

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So that in essence is stating
that, you know, those who are

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descended from Lehigh have a
stake in this land.

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The the Americas.
I include all the Americas from

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North America to South America,
but the one that I'm kind of

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giving importance to is in
verses 23 and 24 where it so in

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in second Nephi chapter 3, Lehi
is talking to his youngest son

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Joseph.
And then he tells Joseph, you

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are descended from the Joseph of
old who was sold sold into

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Egypt.
And then he prophecies about a

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great seer that is going to come
forward in the last days.

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And of course that indicates
Joseph Smith.

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But then in verse 23, he is
speaking to Joseph specifically

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about his descendants.
And he says the verse says,

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wherefore because this of this
covenant thou art blessed, for

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thy seed shall not be destroyed,
for they shall hearken under the

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words of the book.
And then in verse 24, it speaks

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about a prophet that's going to
come among the descendants of

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Lehi.
It says, For there shall be one

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mighty among them who shall do
much good, both in Word and in

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deed, being an instrument in the
hands of God, with exceeding

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faith to do to work mighty
wonders, and do that thing which

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is great in the sight of God,
under bringing the past much

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restoration under the House of
Israel, and unto the seed of thy

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brethren.
So in the older versions of the

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Book of Mormon, the footnote for
that word for for word talks

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about the mighty prophet.
The footnote for verse 24

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indicates that it was referring
to an Indian prophet.

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You even go to the Spanish
version.

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The Spanish version came out in
1915, I believe, and it was

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translated by Mexican mission
president Ray L Pratt.

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And in there the footnote reads
UN propheta la Manita, which in

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Spanish means the Lamanite
prophet.

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So there was an understanding
that verse 24 refers to a future

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mighty prophet among the
Lamanite people.

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And however, eventually later
editions of the Book of Mormon

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had nothing in the footnote.
And now currently, if you go to

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thelds.org website, can you look
up verse 24?

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The footnote for a mighty
prophet indicates Joseph Smith.

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So they changed it.
They changed the meaning to it.

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Instead of the future Lehmanite
prophet descended of Lehigh, it

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talks about, it refers to it as
Joseph Smith also.

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I think it's problematic.
I think it became problematic to

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admit that there I don't know
why that there was going to be a

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prophet of that lineage.
I I don't know your good guess

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is as good as mine on that.
That's interesting.

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And, and we find this a lot
within Mormonism, right?

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I, I don't think we sometimes
think of, you know, falling away

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from sacred truth as something
that might take a while.

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And what it's interesting that
Mormonism, a lot of it happens

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rather quickly, right?
Oh, it doesn't necessarily take

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hundreds of years or in some
cases thousands of years.

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It takes just decades.
And that has always amazed me

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about Mormonism is that there's
a lot that's given, but they're

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also seems to be a propensity to
move on from those teachings

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just as quickly as they received
them.

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And that's always surprised me.
And I, I, and I can't figure out

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why exactly.
I got a couple hypothesis, but

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they're just just ideas.
So when do we get?

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It I'm willing to bet that it
went exactly the same way in the

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days of the early church.
Right, right.

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No, it's, it's it's a human
problem.

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It's not a Mormon problem for
sure.

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So when do we start seeing that?
First off, let me ask this

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question.
Do we have any talks or anything

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like that from a general
conference in the old days or

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something like that where, where
they expounded upon this at all,

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this idea of a of a Lamanite
prophet in the latter days?

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I think there are.
I didn't have any located in my

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talk because mostly I focus on
the Mormon fundamentalist

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perception of this, which is
very interesting.

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So I, I first came into contact
with this teaching back when I

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became a fundamentalist in 1990.
The first set of fundamentalists

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I started associating with were
the Lewis Kelch Independence,

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00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,480
you know, independent Mormon
fundamentals.

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00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,520
And for those who don't know, in
the 1950s, the priesthood works

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00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:53,040
split into two major groups.
On one one hand you had the

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00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,240
group that would become, you
know, Short Creek, that would

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00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,440
become the FLDS.
And then on the other hand, you

225
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,880
had the Aldrig group that would
eventually become known as AUB.

226
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,160
The ones in the middle were the
Lewis Kelch Independence.

227
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:11,520
They didn't pick either side.
And of course, in their opinion,

228
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,520
the priesthood had been lost by
both, not only the church, but

229
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,320
by both groups of, of
fundamentalists.

230
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:28,280
And, you know, for various
nebulous reasons, you know, they

231
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,160
mainly pointed to when the
fundamentalist men went into

232
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,040
prison in the 1940s, that all of
them before signed a document

233
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,560
vowing to no one to discontinue
the practice of plural marriage.

234
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,280
And so these set of
independents, mainly for the

235
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,760
most part, viewed that
fundamentalists had lost the

236
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,080
priesthood because of that
disavowal of a sacred principle

237
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,280
in their opinion.
So were they saying that?

238
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,200
Were they saying that even about
themselves?

239
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,520
Yes, ultimately it came to that.
They developed a theology that,

240
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,400
you know, because a lot of these
things like signing the

241
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,800
document, they said that they
did it upon inspiration.

242
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,640
And there were other things like
John Y Barlow called certain men

243
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,400
to the priesthood council and
when he was asked if he had

244
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:26,680
received the revelation, he said
no, he had received inspiration.

245
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:32,800
So they didn't count inspiration
as as a valid source of

246
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,320
revelation.
They said that the only source

247
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:41,000
of true revelation is a divine
confrontation with a, with a

248
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,400
either, you know, some sort of
heavenly being, you know,

249
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,920
whether it be Heavenly Father,
Jesus or angels that you have to

250
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,200
have a direct revelation face to
face.

251
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:57,520
Well, that becomes a problem
when you ordain your sons to the

252
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,400
priesthood, because in the
Doctrine of Covenants it says

253
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,960
that that men are called to the
priesthood by revelation.

254
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,440
So if the only form of
revelation you recognize is an

255
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,760
angelic visitation or a heavenly
visitation, then that causes

256
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,440
problems with ordaining your son
to a Deacon.

257
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,600
You can't ordain your son to a
Deacon unless an Angel comes

258
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,280
down and tells you to do it.
So they stopped.

259
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,080
They continue living plural
marriage, but they stopped

260
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,640
altogether ordaining their sons
of the priesthood.

261
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:35,920
So they have entire generations
being brought up that don't have

262
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,400
the priesthood.
And you know, I'm not speaking

263
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,400
critically of them because I
think there's a lot of good

264
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,560
people with them, but I think
that there is a lack of

265
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,080
understanding.
So in essence, when I when I

266
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:52,040
first joined fundamentalism for
about a year, I associated

267
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,440
specifically and exclusively
with the Lewis Kelch

268
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,280
independence.
And they taught me a lot of

269
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,480
these doctrines.
And one of the, you know, if if

270
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,240
you believe that the priesthood
is gone from the priesthood work

271
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,440
and that none of those brethren
hold the priesthood, where did

272
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,359
the priesthood go?
You have to have hope in this,

273
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,119
this priesthood because it is
the last dispensation.

274
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,680
So they started telling me
stories about a Lamanite

275
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,400
prophet, that it was already in
existence who was hidden in the

276
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:32,120
quote mountains of Yucatan.
And they believed that Lauren

277
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:36,640
Woolley took the keys of the
priesthood in the middle of the

278
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,000
night, that he was whisked away
by the spirit to Yucatan where

279
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:46,160
he met a Lamanite prophet.
And he, Lauren Woolley, bestowed

280
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:52,520
his keys on this mysterious
prophet and then departed.

281
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,960
Well, and that there was a
remnant of the Lamanites who

282
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,320
lived in this hidden
civilization in the jungle.

283
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:04,880
So and that this Lamanite
prophet was waiting for the

284
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:10,080
right moment to return and
restore the priesthood keys to

285
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,800
the Latter Day Saints and to the
fundamentalists.

286
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:20,160
And you know, and as far fetched
to this as this sounds to us

287
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,720
now, the belief in the Lehman I
prophet and Lauren Woolley

288
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,160
administering priesthood to him
was something that persisted

289
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,720
with the majority of the members
of the priesthood group

290
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,920
basically from the 1920s to the
1960s.

291
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,720
They all somehow believe this.
And then at a certain point they

292
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:44,280
all, you know, the teaching
seemed to to vaporize and it it

293
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,040
was only maintained by the Lewis
Kelton independence.

294
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,200
So.
Why do you think fundamentalist

295
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,920
got Why do you think it
vaporized with fundamentalist?

296
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,200
Because look, with
fundamentalist, we'll pick,

297
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,040
we'll pick stuff up no matter
what, right?

298
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,280
If the LDS church kind of gets
rid of it, we we swoop in to to

299
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,040
grab it.
Why do you think this one went

300
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,600
away?
Well, I'm going to, I'll, I'll

301
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,360
cover that eventually during our
conversation.

302
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,960
But you know, first of all, you
kind of have to understand

303
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,520
Lauren Woolley.
And I may come across as

304
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,240
sounding critical of Lauren
Woolley.

305
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:30,040
I'm not.
But you know, I'm going to kind

306
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,000
of skip forward a little bit and
talk about my grandfather, my

307
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,800
great grandfather and namesake,
Marini Jessup.

308
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:41,560
Marini Jessup had an interview
done with him shortly before his

309
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:49,000
death in 1953 and Arnold Boss
did an interview with him about

310
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,720
his reminiscences of his
associations with John and

311
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,120
Lauren Woolley.
He was a cowboy.

312
00:19:55,120 --> 00:20:00,800
He had worked not only as an
employee of Baldwin Radio Plant

313
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,560
along with Lauren Woolley and
the most of the fundamentalist

314
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,960
early fundamentalist movement,
but he had worked and lived on

315
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,200
the Woolley Ranch in
Centerville, UT and had worked

316
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:16,080
as a ranch hand, so he was
intimately aware of.

317
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,720
What Lauren Wooley and John
Wooley taught.

318
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,840
And in there in his interview,
he talks a little bit about a

319
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,920
future layman.
I profit that's going to come

320
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,400
forward.
He's going to bear the sword of

321
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,560
Laban and that no army will
prevail against him.

322
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,680
And he he indicated that this
was a teaching that was taught

323
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:45,760
to him by Lauren Wooley.
Well, I mean, for me, Lauren

324
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,440
Woolley is somewhat problematic
because, you know, and I

325
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,760
interpret it this way, Lauren
Woolley was a cowboy.

326
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,160
My grand great grandfather
Moroni was a cowboy.

327
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:02,120
And what do Cowboys do?
They tell tall tales, right?

328
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,960
You know, so Lauren Woolley
taught a lot of things that

329
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,800
stretch your mind as far as
belief.

330
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:14,720
It stretches your belief and I
want to make it clear that even

331
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,160
though that's my opinion, that I
don't believe a lot of the

332
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,440
things that people attribute to
Lauren Lily.

333
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,520
I do believe his story about the
8 hour meeting and the 1886

334
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,920
revelation and what what
succeeded from that.

335
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,280
You know, I may not believe that
John Taylor floated off the

336
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,200
floor, but I mean, I may not
believe that.

337
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,800
But it's not also impossible.
I mean, God can do anything, but

338
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:44,720
I kind of my mind kind of
stretches to accept that detail.

339
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:52,160
But anyhow, there's multiple
sources that talk about Lauren

340
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,920
Woolley delivering these keys to
a Lamanite and not just the

341
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,680
works to my great, great
grandfather.

342
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:11,640
But you know, in a leaf and
review by B Harvey Allred, he

343
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,800
talks about he doesn't indicate
whether he saw this prophet and

344
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:22,320
vision and he or whether, you
know, whether it was a dream or

345
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,920
a vision or whether he really
saw them saw them, but he

346
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,840
indicates that he let me see.
I'm going to go through my

347
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,240
papers and see if I can get that
quote right now because it's

348
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,440
very interesting 'cause I'm I'm
bouncing all over the place.

349
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,760
No, you're you're good.
Let let me ask this question

350
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,560
while you look this up.
Was was this Lamanite prophet

351
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,280
supposed to be acting in kind of
A1 mighty and strong kind of

352
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,760
role?
Was he the guy that they looking

353
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,120
towards that they he would come
back and he would just make make

354
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,760
all the wrongs right, so to
speak, within the church?

355
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,280
Yes, they kind of viewed him
more as like the Davidic

356
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,840
servant.
That's the Davidic king that's

357
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,600
supposed to come forward in the
last phase.

358
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,960
But yeah, here's the quote from
from B Harvey Allred, He says,

359
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:13,920
and God's people with whom will
be the fullness of the gospel

360
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,400
shall be led by a mighty prophet
of the remnant of the House of

361
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,560
Israel.
Now dwelling on this land.

362
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,960
It has been the writers
privilege to see that prophet

363
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:26,880
standing in mighty majesty
amidst thousands of his

364
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,160
Worshipful people.
The mountains with their trees

365
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,400
and shrubs, the hills with their
grass and flowers, the valleys

366
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,200
with their fields and streams
joined the host of the of this

367
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,760
nation.
Quote born in a day quote End

368
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,240
Quote, singing pans of praise to
the God of heavens and earth.

369
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:49,120
So I don't know.
I don't know whether he claims

370
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,640
to have seen a vision of this
prophet or whether he's claiming

371
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,880
to have seen the prophet with
with his own eyes.

372
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:02,560
But he published this in the
early 1930s in the book A Leaf

373
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,320
in Review, which is an excellent
book.

374
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:11,400
But there were some people that
kind of took this and ran.

375
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,280
One of them was his daughter,
Ria Koons, who along with other

376
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,480
people, wrote wide volumes of
reminiscences of John Woolley

377
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,160
and Lauren Woolley.
And she talks extensively in

378
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:32,240
there about Lauren Woolley.
I think.

379
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,640
I think in when was it in?
I believe it was in the night of

380
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:45,400
the night in 1835 or 1935 being
whisked away from the home of of

381
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,000
Leslie Broadbent and being taken
to Yucatan.

382
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:54,200
And there there was a
testimonial sound that they even

383
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,560
went into his bedroom and that
he was missing that.

384
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:00,200
And then he was mysteriously
returned, you know.

385
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,560
So this story was quite common
with the fundamentalists.

386
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,720
Do we know what?
What did Musser ever have

387
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,960
anything to say on this?
Or Allred?

388
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,280
Or Barlow.
I don't recall directly.

389
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,920
I do believe so.
I, I, I was going to take a look

390
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:25,400
at reminiscences, you know, by,
by Joseph Musser, but I wasn't

391
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,800
able to get a copy in time to do
the speech.

392
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,480
So I'm actually not sure I think
that it was universally spoken.

393
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,800
I know that that Lyman Jessup
spoke about it in his journal,

394
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:43,760
but what's interesting is how
this story intersects with with

395
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,800
Margarita Bautista and the third
convention movement in Mexico.

396
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,320
And before I do that, I kind of
need to give a, a shout out

397
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:58,080
really quick to my Co presenter.
My Co presenter is going to be

398
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:03,600
Stephanie Griswold.
Stephanie Griswold is a PhD

399
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,760
candidate from Claremont
University in California.

400
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,480
And she's also, I think, the
president of the Mormon Studies

401
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,080
Student Association.
And she's not even Mormon, kind

402
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:22,400
of like Christina Rosetti.
She's Catholic, but she's she's

403
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,400
of Mexican descent, just like
me.

404
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,880
And her focus is Mormonism in
the Southwest and Mormonism in

405
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,280
Mexico.
In fact, she just made a trip to

406
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:40,520
Osuna, Mexico to interview
several of the fundamentalists

407
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,000
that live in that community
that's located there.

408
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,440
And we'll kind of get into that
in a little bit here.

409
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:54,880
But so Stephanie is going to be
presenting on the third

410
00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:01,360
convention and on the Mexican
component of laymanite identity.

411
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,080
And I don't really know what
she's going to speak on until I

412
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,600
get there.
But I'm, I'm, I'm almost

413
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,160
positive that it's going to be a
nice compendium to what I'm

414
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,400
talking about.
And so anyway, Margarita

415
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,240
Bautista and I learned a lot in
my research on this because

416
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,360
initially when I, you know, when
I picked this topic to speak at

417
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:30,560
Sun's tone, I was looking for
something a, a cool story.

418
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,480
And I had some preconceived
consumption assumptions that

419
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,640
turned out to be incorrect.
And one of those was that the

420
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:46,200
fundamentalists here in Utah
heard rumours about Margarita

421
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,600
Bautista's United Order down in
Mexico and thinking that he was

422
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:57,800
the Lamanite prophet, travelled
down to Mexico and and said, you

423
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,320
know, contacted them with that
assumption.

424
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,600
It turns out that my assumption
on that was incorrect.

425
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,400
Margarito Bautista in my
studies, you know, I read the

426
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:15,640
journal of Nathaniel Baldwin,
who was the inventor of the

427
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,640
radio headphones that were being
manufactured at the and Baldwin

428
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,880
radio plant in the 1920s.
And he was sympathetic to

429
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:30,720
fundamentalist and he hired, he
hired several of the

430
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:37,200
fundamentalists to work there.
But I didn't know until my

431
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:43,360
research that my buddies about
Tista was a partner at the

432
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:49,080
Baldwin radio plant.
And yeah, he was, he was kind of

433
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,440
like one of their higher ups.
And he had moved from Mexico in

434
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,160
the late 19 teens, you know, I
think around like 19191918,

435
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,640
somewhere around there and had
gotten involved with the early

436
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,400
fundamentalist movement for
about 5 years and was in.

437
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,640
He was acquainted with Lauren
Wooley, with John Wooley, with

438
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,240
Joseph Musser and had lived
among them.

439
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,400
As the, you know, for those who
don't know, the the Baldwin

440
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,280
Radio plant is where Lauren
Woolley first started telling

441
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,280
people about what John Taylor
had bestowed upon him in 1886.

442
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,000
And it was at these after hours
meetings that that the seeds of

443
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:39,160
fundamentalism was born.
These meetings kind of expanded

444
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,560
into a solid fundamentalist
movement, you know, for those

445
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,360
who aren't aware of the history,
but not a good info about Disa

446
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:55,120
was a member of the church
still, but he was there for

447
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,680
those particular meetings and
wasn't intimately involved with

448
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:04,160
the the fundamentalist event.
And then the church called him

449
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:10,280
on a mission to Mexico.
So he returned to Mexico and he

450
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,400
wrote a book, and I don't recall
the title of the book, but it

451
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,960
was in Spanish.
And it was a book that was

452
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:26,040
geared to Mexican Mormons.
And he talked about their

453
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,440
Lamanite identity and that the
promises of the Book of Mormon

454
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,200
pertain to them and that they
were they were a special and a

455
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,880
chosen people and that they
should be proud of that.

456
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:43,160
And, and his book was wildly
popular among Mexicans, Mexican

457
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,640
Mormons, but of course the
church didn't like it and the

458
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,440
church would not refuse to give
official sanction to the church

459
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,200
or to the book.
Excuse me.

460
00:30:54,800 --> 00:31:02,280
And so anyway, the third
convention, for those who don't

461
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:09,120
know what that is, is a very
interesting and somewhat unknown

462
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,240
period of Mormon history.
I mean, it's coming to light now

463
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,720
in the age of the Internet.
But for years, nobody even knew

464
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,400
about this movement.
And that was I, I mentioned

465
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,720
earlier, Ray L Pratt, the
mission president in Mexico.

466
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,720
He was white, but he spoke
perfect Spanish.

467
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,080
He had lived among the Mexican
people.

468
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,920
He loved them.
He identified with them, and

469
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:39,400
they returned that love.
So the Mexican Revolution around

470
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:45,160
the turn of the century caused
issues in Mexico in that a lot

471
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,240
of the Mexicans, a lot of them
white Mormons who lived in

472
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,400
Mexico and the missionaries were
expelled from Mexico.

473
00:31:54,280 --> 00:32:03,040
And Porfirio Diaz, it was the
Mexican president had a law that

474
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:09,280
foreign clergy was not allowed
in in Mexico.

475
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:17,880
So the Mexican Mormons, they got
together, they wrote a petition,

476
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,560
which is the first convention
where they petitioned for a

477
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,160
Mexican replacement for Ray L
Pratt, who had died.

478
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,480
That petition, I believe, went
unanswered.

479
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:40,360
And so they wrote a second
petition called the Second

480
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,760
convention, petitioning again
for Mexican leadership because

481
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,640
that was also in compliance with
the law.

482
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:54,520
And instead they were, they were
given Antoine Ivins, who did not

483
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,400
have the same level of affection
for the Mexican people that Rail

484
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,320
Pratt had done.
In fact, he managed the affairs

485
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,080
of Mexico for a long time from
Utah.

486
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,160
And I mean, he eventually did
travel down to Mexico.

487
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,920
But I mean, it was very passive.
It was very indifferent.

488
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,560
And the Mexican people didn't
like it.

489
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,000
So on the third convention, they
they resigned from the church.

490
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:26,800
Like in Mass, we're talking like
all of the Mexican people who

491
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,960
lived in central Mexico, you
know, those who lived in Mexico

492
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,960
City, those who lived in Puebla,
and they became known as the

493
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,000
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints third Convention

494
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,160
because of the third petition
that they had made to Salt Lake.

495
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,560
And a lot of people don't know
that there was a book called

496
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,760
Mexicans and Mormons in Mexico
that talks about the third

497
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,960
convention, but they failed to
mention that plural marriage in

498
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,680
the United Order became part of
the third convention.

499
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,520
Really.
Yeah.

500
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:05,680
So, and I think they, they
existed between I, I, I believe,

501
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:12,080
I'm not certain the years were
between 1935 and 1945.

502
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:19,199
And so eventually what they did
is they sent David O McKay down

503
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,880
to Mexico to woo the members of
the third convention back.

504
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:29,480
And they made they made an
agreement with them.

505
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:32,480
Those who are living in plural
marriage, you can keep your

506
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,679
plural wives.
You just can't take any more.

507
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,800
And you can't live with, you can
only live with one wife.

508
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:45,760
And my dad served a mission in
Mexico, in down in central

509
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,040
Mexico in the early 1960s.
And he remembers going to church

510
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,719
as a Mormon missionary for an as
an LDS missionary and seeing an

511
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,920
old couple.
Well, I, what's the word, I

512
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:04,800
guess, throuple a man and his
two wives, elderly attending the

513
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,560
LDS ward there.
They would come in and sit down

514
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,040
and they remembers they had been
allowed to continue living

515
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,240
plural marriage, but kind of on
the down low, I guess you might

516
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:19,920
say.
But so anyway, the bulk, a huge

517
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,840
percentage of those Mexicans who
had been part of the third

518
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,600
convention returned to the LDS
Church.

519
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,880
But there was a hardcore group
of protesters led by Madhavito

520
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:39,440
Battista that refused.
And so they went to a piece of

521
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:45,680
land outside of the town of
Ozuma, Mexico, which is on the

522
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,760
western slopes of the huge
volcano outside of Mexico City

523
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,760
called Bopocatepeta.
And they established a united

524
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,960
order called Colonia Industrial.
And that that colony was led by

525
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,280
Margarito Bautista.
Well, the fundamentalist

526
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:14,160
travelled in the late 19 like
1949 and the early 1950s to to

527
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:20,200
visit Margarito Bautista.
And of course, a lot of us know

528
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:26,800
the story how Ruin and, and, and
Joseph Messer ordained Margarito

529
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,480
Bautista to the apostleship.
That was one of the that was one

530
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:31,880
of the things that led to the
split.

531
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,960
It's the ordination of Ruin and
the ordination of my Benito

532
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:41,640
Batista.
And I talked to the sound man

533
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:48,320
from the meeting because after
the ordination, Joseph Musser

534
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,040
and Ruin travelled to Salt Lake
and they met.

535
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,160
They, they had a sacrament
meeting and my and Joseph Musser

536
00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:02,440
was presiding at the meeting and
he, he asked Magadhisa Bautista

537
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,560
to get up and speak.
So Bautista got up and speak,

538
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,240
spoke and then he sat down.
And then Joseph Messer called

539
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:12,040
him again to get up and speak.
And so he got up and spoke and

540
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,840
gave a discourse again.
And then he sat down.

541
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,920
And then after that he asked him
the third time to get up and

542
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,480
speak.
So then Bautista kind of figured

543
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,520
that he knew what Messer wanted
him to say.

544
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:29,600
And so he announced for the
first time in public that that

545
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,440
Messer had ordained him to the
council.

546
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:35,120
And of course, it's caused
ruckus.

547
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:42,480
The story was that was that one
man leaped to his feet and said,

548
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,960
I won't have no black Lamanite
presiding over me, you know.

549
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:52,200
And, and so of course, this
eventually led to the split.

550
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,160
And there were some later, you
know, Ruin said in Treasures and

551
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:03,320
knowledge.
He he said that people had been

552
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,880
asking if, well, I'll read it
right here.

553
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,480
There's a question asked of
Ruin.

554
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:14,920
And this is, you know, in the
early 1970s, says we, we hear a

555
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,000
prophecy in the latter days that
a Lamanite prophet would arise.

556
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,000
Does this mean that the prophet
is going to be an Indian?

557
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,920
And then Ruin answers.
He will be about, let's see,

558
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,000
sorry.
He will be about image, which

559
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,240
comes from Joseph, who is the
son of of Lehi.

560
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,840
That is very plainly stated in
the Book of Mormon chapter 3 of

561
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,560
Zack and Nephi.
I will answer that by saying

562
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,600
that when birthed about beasts,
that was set apart as an apostle

563
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,720
by Joseph W Messer and he
gathered out hundreds of the

564
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:52,760
Lamanites and instituted the
fullness of the gospel among

565
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,400
them.
This question was asked of

566
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,920
Brother Messer.
He turned to Brother Bautista

567
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,880
and said this man could well be
that man.

568
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,960
Whether he is or not depends on
him.

569
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,640
God wants a man who would spring
forth from that lineage and he

570
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,120
would restore much of the gospel
to his people.

571
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,280
Brother Bautista did this.
Want more from the Mormon

572
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,920
Renegade podcast?
Head over to the Mormon Renegade

573
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,880
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574
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,000
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575
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,400
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576
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,760
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577
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,160
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578
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,080
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live stream show with the host

579
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,560
Dave Sanders.
Click the link in this episode's

580
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,720
show notes today.
God wants a man who would spring

581
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:51,200
forth from that lineage, and he
would restore much of the gospel

582
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,120
to his people.
Read the Balthista did this.

583
00:39:54,880 --> 00:40:00,920
So that was kind of the answer
that gave about whether he was

584
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,320
the Lamanite prophet.
So do we maybe, do we maybe

585
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,920
start seeing some clarification
on this, this Lamanite prophet's

586
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,040
role during this time?
Because it seems like earlier

587
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,880
on, back in the, you know, in
the proto fundamentalist days,

588
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,360
if you will, when those things
were just getting started, that

589
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,360
there was this idea that he
would be a prophet to everybody.

590
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,200
But judging by what Ruin had
just said there, he would be a

591
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,200
prophet to his people, restoring
many things to his people,

592
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,280
right?
So it seems like there's kind of

593
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,840
a dichotomy going on here where
I shouldn't say dichotomy, but

594
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,560
an evolution of thought.
I guess that that, OK, maybe

595
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,560
it's not for everybody.
Maybe this is just for his

596
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,480
people.
Do we see that anywhere else or

597
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,680
is it just in this one statement
that would indicate shift in

598
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,040
teaching?
No, that's actually a common, a

599
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,680
common opinion that I've heard
expressed a lot.

600
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,520
I do want to point out a few
things that, you know, Margarita

601
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:11,200
Batista was was a leader to the
Lamanite people in in Mexico who

602
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,440
are of indigenous.
The stories that started

603
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,880
circulating is that this that
this Lamanite prophet would be

604
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,600
white.
He's referred to as the white

605
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,800
Lamanite prophet.
And Harkins back himself.

606
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,520
Yeah, he, he was not just a
Lamanite, but he was a white

607
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,880
Lamanite.
And there were a bunch of people

608
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:40,800
like Rhea Kunz, who is the
daughter of of Byron Harvey

609
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:49,280
Allred and the sister to ruin
and Owen and she began making a

610
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:54,920
lot of way out their claims.
And between her and Lynn Bishop

611
00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:05,720
and and Francis M Darter, they
started creating a wealth of

612
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,720
assumptions.
And I mean, it almost reads like

613
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:14,120
a fantasy book, you know, like
this Lamanite prophet is 6 foot

614
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,040
4, you know, and holds the sword
of Laban.

615
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,880
And his people have cut stones
that are going to make the

616
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,760
temple in, in New Jerusalem, in
Missouri, and that they're going

617
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,840
to be the ones bringing the
stones from Yucatan, from the

618
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,720
mountains of Yucatan to all the
way to Missouri.

619
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,080
Well, the problem with that
assumption is anybody who's been

620
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,600
to Yucatan knows that there's
no, there's no mountains in

621
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,760
Yucatan.
Right, right.

622
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,520
Probably the highest point of
elevation is like 400 feet above

623
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,960
sea level.
So there's no, there's no

624
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,240
mountains.
So that doesn't make sense.

625
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,880
It eventually got to the point
and Lynn Bishop, my

626
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,480
father-in-law, talks about this
because he went to some of these

627
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,880
meetings.
Lynn Bishop started to have

628
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:11,040
these elaborate meetings at at
Liberty Park in Salt Lake City,

629
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,760
and he would invite all the
fundamentalists of all

630
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,880
persuasions to come listen to
him speak where he would preach

631
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,880
the Lamanite prophet that he had
written about.

632
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:28,360
And it got to the point where
ruin had to kind of shut him

633
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,720
down.
And he talked about Francis M

634
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:34,280
Darter because a lot of this
stuff came from Francis M

635
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,480
Darter's writings.
And he said he basically called

636
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:42,120
out Francis M Darter as having a
vivid imagination and speaking

637
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:47,080
falsehoods.
And so that was when the

638
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:52,960
fundamentalist kind of came to a
concise rejection of that

639
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,600
concept.
And I do know that Rewin Jeff's

640
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:02,800
over in Short Creek made some
similar pronunciations against

641
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,320
the concept of the laminary
prophet.

642
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:11,040
But before that I want to go
back to the like around 1952.

643
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,680
Can I ask, can I ask a question
real quick before we move on

644
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,040
here?
Sure.

645
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:24,560
That part that you talked about
where Musser had asked Batista

646
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,960
to get up three times.
And finally on the third time,

647
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,360
Batista goes, oh, I, I figure
out, I, I know why you want me

648
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,920
to stand up.
Excuse me?

649
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,080
That's a bold move, right?
Because he's essentially wanting

650
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:43,000
him to stand up and kind of let
everybody know that he has this

651
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:47,160
authority now, right?
What was Musser's angle in doing

652
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,040
that?
Do we have any, any reason on,

653
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,160
on what, what his his motive
there was?

654
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,360
Because normally as
fundamentalist people who have

655
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,280
been ordained to the
apostleship, they play that

656
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,960
pretty close to the vest, right?
I wouldn't call it a secret, but

657
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,400
it's not something that that
folks go around thumping their

658
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,520
chest about.
So this seems to be kind of an

659
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,240
aberration in in that practice.
Do do we know why?

660
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:17,840
Do we know what Muster was
angling towards here on this?

661
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:23,080
I I mean, only Brother Messer
can answer to that and that that

662
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:29,560
that instruction of not
proclaiming yourself was given

663
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,320
by Joseph Messer to all of those
who he ordained.

664
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,400
And he also told them not to
vindicate themselves.

665
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,480
And yet here I mean, I take that
that there's an exception to

666
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,040
every rule.
He wanted about these to say,

667
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,320
say this in public because
maybe, maybe people wouldn't

668
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,000
have believed Bautista or
others, you know, had it not

669
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,960
been otherwise, that Joseph
Musser was the one who asked him

670
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,920
to proclaim himself.
Sure.

671
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,240
So your guess is as good as mine
man.

672
00:45:59,720 --> 00:46:01,680
Well, that's a bold, that's a
bold move, though.

673
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:03,920
I mean, yeah, good.
Good on Joe.

674
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,880
Joe Joseph Musser, man.
I mean good.

675
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,640
Good for him.
That was, I personally talked to

676
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:14,280
to the guy that was a sound man
for that particular meeting and

677
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,000
he's the one that told me that
story.

678
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:23,280
Wow.
So anyway, after making several

679
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,720
visits to Mexico, you know, to,
to the people of Asumba and

680
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:32,880
having association with them,
the fundamentalists decided to

681
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:39,800
make a a an expedition into
Yucatan to look for this

682
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,880
Slingmanite prophet.
And they had, they had, they

683
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:49,080
solicited the help of Margarita
Bautista and they used Osunba as

684
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:54,200
a staging point.
They hired a guide once they got

685
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,280
to Yucatan.
So they flew to Yucatan.

686
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:02,040
And with them there was
Bautista, Joseph Messer, Ruin

687
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,520
Allred, Joseph Thompson, Owen
and Marvin Allred and Lyman

688
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,840
Jessup.
They all went to Yucatan.

689
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,560
And, and the fact that we know
that so much about these

690
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,840
expeditions are from Lyman
Jessup's journal, which if

691
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,720
anybody doesn't have that, find
a way to get it.

692
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:22,960
It's in three volumes.
And he was a a very detailed

693
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:24,920
journaler.
And he tells the history of

694
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,920
Mormon fundamentalism from its
inception until his death in

695
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,160
1963.
I mean, it's, it's an amazing

696
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,800
piece of literature.
And I think that anybody who's a

697
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,920
fundamentalist should try to
find copies of this, but.

698
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:42,160
These expeditions were just to
find the Lamanite prophet.

699
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,200
Am I understanding that correct?
So there.

700
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,880
So was this before or after
Batista's ordination?

701
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,160
This was after about Thesa's
ordination.

702
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,680
So there was never any real
credence given to the idea that

703
00:47:57,720 --> 00:47:59,880
that Batista could be this
prophet.

704
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,320
Yeah, like so.
The split between the split

705
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:10,680
between Short Creek and the
Aldridge group wasn't like, it

706
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,160
was like a drawn out process.
It took a it took a few years to

707
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,720
occur.
This would took place like right

708
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:20,840
in the middle of that in 1952.
But I don't believe any of them

709
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,960
assumed that Baltisa was that
particular prophet.

710
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:31,120
But so they flew to Merida and
they conscripted local guides to

711
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,560
take them by Jeep into the
jungle.

712
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,480
And but the guides were
bewildered what they were

713
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,000
looking for, you know that they
were looking for white Indians.

714
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,080
And so Lyman wrote in his
journal.

715
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,520
He says, he says we are looking
for races of white Indians.

716
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:55,320
We have been reading Francis M
Darter's Pipe Dreams and

717
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,600
describing people in Yucatan
living in a plateau 12,000 feet

718
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,320
high and in such restrictions
pertaining to their increase

719
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,080
that they can have a child only
one in seven years.

720
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:10,800
Francis also claims that
Lawrence C Woolley came here in

721
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,240
1932 and gave the keys of the
priesthood to their white Indian

722
00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:18,240
chief, etcetera.
According to our findings, the

723
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:21,640
land here is generally only 60
feet elevation with the highest

724
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:26,440
point around 400 feet and no
definite tribes of white Indians

725
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,040
with the chief at their head.
There is no such people such as

726
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:35,520
Francis describes in this land
thought down up thought though

727
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,880
down or up for the South South
in Guatemala.

728
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:43,240
There might be land nearby the
that description further,

729
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:47,280
Bautista was here 17 years ago
and the employee of the Mexican

730
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,080
government.
He says that there is no such

731
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,800
land as Francis tells in
Yucatan.

732
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,520
So that's one of the things that
came to the conclusion that

733
00:49:54,520 --> 00:50:02,080
there's no mountain plateau
where this as was told that this

734
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:03,800
white Lamanite prophet might
live.

735
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,200
And so they didn't find find
anything.

736
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,640
And then after this particular
mission, Bautista argued

737
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,600
forcefully that no such people
could exist in Mexico without

738
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,480
him knowing about it.
So from that point on, the Alrig

739
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,120
group started to teach less and
less about the Lamanite prophet

740
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,760
and they even started, they even
started creating narratives to

741
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,520
kind of diminish it.
You know, I, I, when I was in

742
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,200
the Alrig group, I heard when I
all right, so I have to go back

743
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,880
when I joined the Alrig group
from the Lewis Kelton

744
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,440
Independence, I started
attending the sunny Sunday

745
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,840
school classes, which were
taught by Donna Baird, Alice

746
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:49,760
Rogers and and Bonnie Baird.
And they directed a whole series

747
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,080
of lessons at me.
And I didn't realize at the time

748
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,720
that it was for my benefit, but
it was against the Lamanite

749
00:50:55,720 --> 00:51:00,040
prophet.
And I heard people try to

750
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,880
explain it away when I was in
the outer group.

751
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,320
And the explanations don't
really make sense to me either.

752
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:10,320
They were like, you know, yeah,
Lauren Woolley did ordain an

753
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,560
Indian prophet, but he died and
his sons were weren't interested

754
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,440
in carrying on his work.
And no, Lauren Woolley wasn't

755
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,680
whisked away magically to
Yucatan.

756
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,600
He went in the middle of the
night to a bus stop where where

757
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,320
an Indian man was waiting for
him.

758
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:31,240
And he was ordained and and even
in treasures of knowledge in

759
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:37,080
1973 ruin Allred says Brother
Musser, with this council almost

760
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,720
in the total as it now exists,
had gone to visit this man that

761
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:45,080
Lauren Woolley had given
priesthood to because he

762
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,360
personally knew him.
We found that the man had been

763
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,240
dead for two years.
When we got down there, Brother

764
00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:54,960
Joseph wanted to call on him to
let him know that he had called

765
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,440
on Brother Bautista to preside
over the Lamanites.

766
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,040
This doctrine, the keys of the
priesthood, is among the

767
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,960
Indians.
I want to refute in the name of

768
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,680
the Lord, so.
Yeah.

769
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:12,360
So, you know, The thing is, is
that I don't find anywhere in

770
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,520
Lyman's journals or anywhere
else that there was a man and

771
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,800
that he died and that he came to
a bus stop.

772
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,920
I mean, to me it just seemed
like, you know, people's way of

773
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,400
explaining away this teaching,
so.

774
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,360
Which which is odd, right?
Because I think about it and and

775
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,960
look, we don't have any problems
as Mormons looking forward to

776
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:40,680
certain events, right that have
been prophesied rather than

777
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:45,120
explain it away.
I mean, now, I guess there's

778
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,440
two, I guess one place you would
have to, to me and, and this is

779
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,680
an uncomfortable thing,
especially for early

780
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,080
fundamentalist, I think, which
is to just like you and I were

781
00:52:55,080 --> 00:53:00,960
talking about here, you know,
Woolly told some stories, right?

782
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:06,160
And so that part I could see.
You'd have to be like, you know,

783
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,600
tread carefully there.
But we can look at at second

784
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,800
Nephi and and if we're a
believer in in this, you know,

785
00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:17,680
Lamanite prophet prophecy, we
could always say it just hasn't

786
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,760
come to pass yet, right?
So they seem to like want to

787
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,560
kind of get rid of it, but I
don't see the need for it

788
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,480
necessarily.
You might have to make some

789
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:31,480
concessions on the woolly claim
on this, but not necessarily

790
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,080
whole cloth throw it out, right.
What was the impetus there to

791
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:39,440
kind of throw it out?
Well, I think that I think that

792
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,240
it, it goes back to being a
human thing.

793
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:49,760
You know, they recognize that,
you know, peripherally that this

794
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,080
was a teaching that they once
universally embraced, and now

795
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,760
that teaching is gone.
So how do we explain it away?

796
00:53:55,760 --> 00:54:00,080
Well, we have to explain it away
somehow, you know, and I really

797
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:01,680
think that that's that's what it
is.

798
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:09,040
But but even at that, the
teaching did not go away 100%

799
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:14,080
because a lot of your listeners
know who Sean Anderson is.

800
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,320
And Sean Anderson and I are are
very good friends.

801
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:25,240
And on April 18th, 1994, there
was a guy from Ozumba and, and

802
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:27,240
those who know Sean and I both
speak Spanish.

803
00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:31,280
Sean speaks better Spanish than
I do because he was raised in

804
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,960
Mexico.
But we went to go visit a guy

805
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,480
who was visiting from Ozumba, an
older gentleman by the name of

806
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:47,120
Ricardo Lopez.
And he, he started saying, he

807
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:51,040
told us a wild story.
He said that the EUB council had

808
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,920
found the journals of Lauren
Woolley, where Lauren Woolley

809
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,720
talks about giving priesthood
authority to an Indian to

810
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:05,040
perform plural marriages.
And so the council in the late

811
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:10,640
1980s sent another expedition to
into Mexico.

812
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:15,800
They asked the people of Asumba
to go, but instead of going into

813
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:20,320
the jungles of Yucatan, because
there are no mountains in

814
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,360
Yucatan, they decided to go into
Chiapas.

815
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:31,520
And Chiapas has mountains.
And they took a van up into

816
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,440
these dirt roads that wound up
into the jungle, up into the

817
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,600
mountains.
And they said that that there

818
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,200
was a difference in the tribes
that they encountered there,

819
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:44,200
that the tribes dressed in white
and they were very reluctant to

820
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,840
talk to outsiders.
And but he said that they were

821
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:52,360
very humble and very shy, but
they started talking to these

822
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:57,600
people about, you know, is there
any sort of people there in, in

823
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,600
Chiapas that did this
description?

824
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,400
And they started hearing rumors
that there was.

825
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:09,720
And so eventually they got
plagued by car troubles.

826
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:12,960
The the van kept breaking down.
The roads were too muddy.

827
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,080
The roads were really rough.
And so they had to abandon their

828
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:20,840
expedition.
But this Ricardo was very, very

829
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:26,040
excited to tell us the story.
And then he said that they were

830
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,480
going to go, they were going to
return with horses.

831
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,680
But before they could return,
this same area, I don't know if

832
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,320
you remember in the 90s where
they had like a, a revolution

833
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,600
that did sprouted up.
And there were like these

834
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,880
Sapatista rebels and they were
hiding up in the mountains of

835
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,000
the Chiapas.
And their leader would have his

836
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,400
face mask and everything.
But this made the news in the

837
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:54,000
90s because there was like,
actual, actual skirmishes and

838
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,160
battles that were taking place
in Chiapas.

839
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:00,080
So he told us that the area that
he wanted to go, he had to go

840
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,000
through this area.
And so they were waiting for the

841
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,920
political unrest to settle.
And so Sean and I asked him, you

842
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,960
know, I said, so you believe
they exist?

843
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,280
And he grinned at me.
And he said, yes, they exist.

844
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,400
So that was his opinion.
He was a guy from Asumba.

845
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,320
So.
So even though they cast aside

846
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:24,320
this teaching, it's still, it's
still kind of there somehow, you

847
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:25,360
know?
Wow.

848
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,600
So anyway, that's that's my
crazy story.

849
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,480
Dude, that's awesome.
So I, I got some follow up on

850
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:40,280
this and and this one I'm going
to, I'm I'm going to maybe put

851
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:41,960
you on the spot if you don't
want to answer it.

852
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,200
I totally get it.
What's your opinion on this?

853
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,240
Do you think that this is a real
thing?

854
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:53,720
I used to believe this and and
then I totally, totally didn't

855
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,520
believe it.
Now I reserve judgement.

856
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:01,400
OK, you know what my answer is,
is that there are stranger

857
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:06,040
things in this universe and that
are found in our philosophies.

858
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,480
Horatio.
Well, you know, people will.

859
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:17,040
Maybe scoff at the idea of, of
tribes that don't have contact,

860
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,160
right.
And I would say this before and

861
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:21,680
because I'm kind of like you,
right?

862
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,760
I'm like, well, there was
obviously an understanding in

863
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:30,520
the old days of what this was.
And then there was a revisionist

864
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,200
history kind of thing that came
along and said, well, no, maybe

865
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:37,080
it means more this right?
So, and, and being a

866
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,880
fundamentalist, I think it's a
natural inclination to always

867
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,720
want to want to try to at least
give a little bit of credence to

868
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,360
some of those early things,
right?

869
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,560
At least examine them with with.
I got another story about this.

870
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:56,120
So a lot of, I think a lot of
this kind of sparked the

871
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:03,720
imagination of these stories.
But in 1927, Charles Lindbergh,

872
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:05,960
and for those of you who don't
know who Charles Lindbergh is,

873
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,840
he's the one that made the first
transatlantic flight without

874
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,200
stopping into the spirit of
Saint Louis.

875
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,640
So, you know, he was famous, but
he, the government used to

876
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:24,880
conscript him to map out in the
Southwest, you know, Indian

877
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,200
ruins.
And so he used to fly over them

878
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,120
and map them out for him.
And he would communicate by

879
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,360
radio what he was seeing and
describe what he was seeing,

880
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,720
describe the layout of the land.
Well, he went down to to

881
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,200
southern Mexico and Central
America to do the same thing.

882
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:47,400
And he flew out from Medida and
the New York Times, that article

883
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,440
that came out about it in 1927,
or actually it's 1929, Excuse

884
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:55,000
me.
They, they said that he was

885
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,640
flying over Yucatan.
But some scholars think that he

886
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:01,200
was flying over Central America.
He flew over a clearing.

887
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:06,440
And when he said that that he
flew over some Mayan ruins.

888
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:12,560
And the Mayan ruins were were,
he said it was enormous.

889
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,560
It was a metropolis.
And he said that there were

890
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,480
people in native dress
surrounding these temples out in

891
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,160
the middle of the jungle.
And then when they saw him fly

892
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:27,840
over that.
They became afraid almost like

893
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,040
as if they had never seen an
airplane before.

894
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:36,160
They became afraid and ran and
other people afterwards tried to

895
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,760
go back and find this city that
he found and they couldn't.

896
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:45,440
So this came out in the in the
New York Times back in 1929.

897
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,160
I think a lot of this kind of
sparked the imagination of the

898
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:51,320
the fundamentalists.
But but Even so, it's

899
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,080
interesting to consider.
I mean, there is this factor.

900
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,640
Charles Lindbergh was known to
kind of grandstand a little bit.

901
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:03,880
He would radio what he was
seeing as he was seeing it.

902
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:11,600
And then they would they would
Telegraph that immediately to,

903
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,920
to to journalists.
And so the journalists were

904
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,360
putting it in the papers.
He was giving them play by play

905
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:24,640
of his of his adventures.
So did he make it up?

906
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,760
Did he really see it?
I mean, I, I don't think we'll

907
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,120
ever know for sure.
I mean, is it within the realm

908
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:33,840
of possibility that that
something like that exists?

909
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,680
Of course it is.
But I don't think.

910
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:41,040
We'll ever know for sure.
Yeah, No, we there.

911
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:44,600
There's tribes down in, in South
in South America along the

912
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:49,240
Amazon River basin that we just
came in contact with like 10

913
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,520
years ago, right?
So this idea that there couldn't

914
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:54,960
be someone out there.
I, I, I don't think that's

915
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,520
necessarily a for sure.
No, I, I think it's getting

916
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:01,640
harder, right?
But I, I kind of reserve

917
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,480
judgement as you, the same as
you do on this.

918
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,080
What do you think the legacy of
this teaching is?

919
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:11,760
I mean, what do you see it
adding, adding anything to the

920
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,320
overall, I guess story of of
fundamentalism?

921
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:24,040
It might, but one thing that
that I think that the story

922
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:31,120
benefited is that, you know, I
think that the LDS people

923
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,880
stopped placing an emphasis on
the Lamanite people and the and

924
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,360
the blessings that are promised
them in the Book of Mormon.

925
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:45,400
And I mean, even to this day,
they still give very little lip

926
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:49,400
service to that teaching.
I think the fundamentalists at

927
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:53,160
least acknowledge that there was
a role that the descendants of

928
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,120
Lehigh have in the last days and
look forward to it.

929
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,320
I think the fundamentalists are
one of the only people that

930
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:00,120
still look forward to those
promises.

931
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:04,200
You know that they will, that
they will blossom like a rose in

932
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:07,800
the in the desert and that they
will be like the lion in the

933
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,560
midst of the flock.
You know, and the, there's tons

934
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,080
of prophecies in the Book of
Mormon about the descendants of

935
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,200
Lehigh.
And I think that the only ones

936
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,920
that pay them much attention
anymore are are fundamentalists.

937
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:24,240
And so whatever the case, I
don't know if anything's going

938
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,280
to come to this teaching.
I highly doubt it.

939
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:34,000
I don't, you know, but at least
at least fundamentalists

940
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:37,200
acknowledge they're Lamanite
brothers, you know?

941
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,440
Well, yeah, and it's something
I've had a couple episodes on

942
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:46,760
now too, is that there seems to
have been like you can tell

943
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,200
early on, Joseph's
administration, some of the

944
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,480
first missionaries he sends out
go go to the Western boundaries

945
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,520
and and teach to the to the
Lamanites there.

946
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,880
Right.
So this was, you know, and we

947
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,320
know it was a point of emphasis
for Brigham as well.

948
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:06,520
And then, like, church kind of
seems to forget about it for a

949
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:10,440
while.
And then in the 1950s and 60s,

950
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,520
if I'm not mistaken, the church
tries, you know, the what they

951
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:16,320
refer to as the Lamanite
placement program, which was a

952
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:21,040
horror show where they, you
know, essentially get kids to

953
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,120
leave their folks on the
reservation and, and come live

954
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,040
with Mormon families.
I guess the thought was, is that

955
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:32,360
Provo culture was the way to do
it and that that was a horror

956
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,480
show that didn't work well.
And so you almost get a sense

957
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,760
that there was a sense of
exasperation or frustration that

958
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:42,200
that they couldn't ever get it
going right.

959
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:47,200
And so I think I think a lot of
times that's the impetus for for

960
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:49,400
trying to forget these things,
right?

961
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:54,280
Is, is, well, we can't do it.
So let's, let's work around it,

962
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:57,520
so to speak, or let's try to not
talk about this as much anymore.

963
01:04:57,960 --> 01:04:59,880
And you're right, the
fundamentalists still hold to

964
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:01,960
that, right.
I, I think that's something that

965
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:04,200
can't be ignored.
If you buy the Book of Mormon

966
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,920
and, and you know, you believe
it's an actual record, I think

967
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,640
it's incumbent upon us that,
well, if that's an actual

968
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,680
record, there talks about, we
have some responsibility here.

969
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:19,040
And so it's interesting that
fundamentalists, who often get

970
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:22,520
labeled all sorts of things, are
the ones that are keeping this

971
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:27,840
around and keeping it afloat.
Yeah, a lot of people know that

972
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:32,960
I grew up in the LDS church and
the my whole family at one point

973
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,240
got excommunicated and
transitioned over to the

974
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,720
fundamentalism.
But when we were in the LDS

975
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:42,200
church, my parents participated
very avidly in the placement

976
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,520
program.
I had several Navajo foster

977
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:49,560
brothers and sisters and but my
parents did it for other

978
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:53,200
reasons.
My parents, you know, my dad is

979
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:58,560
white LDS, my mother is a
Mexican convert.

980
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,000
And so, and my dad served a
mission in Mexico.

981
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:06,840
So, so he had, he approached the
placement program from a

982
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:11,440
position of love.
He truly loved the kids that

983
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:13,720
came into our home.
But yeah, like I said,

984
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:17,920
ultimately it didn't work.
You know, and now that you look

985
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,680
back at it, that was probably
really traumatic for those kids

986
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:25,080
to be taken from their homes and
temporarily adopted out into,

987
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:29,160
you know, white families and
they cut their hair and tried to

988
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:33,520
take them of their culture, You
know, have there been traumatic

989
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:35,560
for them?
Sure, sure.

990
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:39,160
And, you know, we can look back
even, you know, back to the 60s,

991
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:41,720
which is what now we're
approaching.

992
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,280
Oh my gosh, over 50 years.
Over 50 years, right?

993
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:48,440
Things change in that time,
right?

994
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:53,200
And, and you can never, it's
always one of those things where

995
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:55,600
we can look back at hindsight
because we don't want to repeat

996
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,440
those mistakes.
At the same time, we do have to

997
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,080
acknowledge, yeah, this didn't,
this didn't pan out like we were

998
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,680
hoping, right?
So I, I think it's always good

999
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,160
to, to look back at those and
call that for what it is.

1000
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:09,800
At the same time, cutting those
folks some slack, right, too.

1001
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:13,080
They were doing the best they
could with with where they were

1002
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,040
at.
So, well, I've thought about the

1003
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:19,760
prophecies in the Book of Mormon
and I've, I've thought, you

1004
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:21,600
know, how are they going to come
about?

1005
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:23,680
How are they going to be a
nation born in a day?

1006
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:28,800
And, you know, I've come to the
conclusion that the Lord is

1007
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:30,760
going to have to do his own own
work.

1008
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:36,000
I don't think that missionaries
are going to achieve that.

1009
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,680
I think that the conversion,
whenever it takes place, is

1010
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:45,040
going to be not something short,
the absolutely miraculous.

1011
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:49,760
And it's not going to have
anything to do with anything

1012
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:51,680
that the church or the
fundamentalists do.

1013
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,480
It's going to be something
completely on its own and

1014
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:58,520
independent, right?
And I mean, that's a conclusion

1015
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:00,200
I've come.
I don't know how else it's going

1016
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,560
to happen.
Yeah, absolutely.

1017
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:07,160
You know, outside of the
scripture that we have in Second

1018
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:13,840
Nephi, do we see anything else
that gives cause 'cause it

1019
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:17,279
again, I want to be careful here
because I wasn't there.

1020
01:08:17,279 --> 01:08:21,840
I don't know, but it doesn't
seem like a lot of the stuff

1021
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:25,960
that Woolly had to say about it
was necessarily factual, Right.

1022
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:30,680
And you know, you brought up
Darter and, you know, they

1023
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:33,160
called his stuff pipe dreams, if
I'm not mistaken.

1024
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:37,279
Do you have any other sources
that that we could consider

1025
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:41,319
authoritative on any other
characteristics of this prophet

1026
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:45,319
outside of the Scriptures?
Not necessarily.

1027
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:51,520
I think that it's it's kind of
like the Mormon, the Mormon

1028
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:54,920
urban legends, like the three
knee fights.

1029
01:08:55,120 --> 01:09:00,319
You know, I mean, I classified
this story kind of in in that

1030
01:09:00,319 --> 01:09:02,399
vein.
I mean, do the three knee fights

1031
01:09:02,399 --> 01:09:06,720
travel among us changing tires
and baking bread?

1032
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:09,160
I mean, who knows?
They might, They very well

1033
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:12,760
might.
But you know, you have to kind

1034
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:17,640
of treat it for what it is and
as a story that most likely

1035
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,960
isn't accurate or true you.
Know, yeah.

1036
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:24,840
And, and I think, and I think I
want to say this, I think this

1037
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:29,520
is changing, but I do think that
that Mormonism, especially

1038
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:33,160
Mormon fundamentalism, has, has
suffered from some of these

1039
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:37,240
stories that have creeped in,
right, and have been attributed

1040
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:40,439
to sources that may not have
been as valid.

1041
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:43,920
Now that we, we have the gift of
perspective of being able to

1042
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:47,040
look back and really evaluate
sources and those sorts of

1043
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,520
things.
And those stories aren't

1044
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:56,440
necessarily always detrimental
or harmful.

1045
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:00,440
But I will say it's it, it's
incumbent upon us to take these

1046
01:10:00,440 --> 01:10:04,160
sorts of teachings and really
sort them out, right?

1047
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:08,040
What's tradition, what's
doctrine and can we get to the

1048
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,920
bottom of it?
I do think that we're in an age

1049
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,880
now that that we can do that.
And that is happening, right?

1050
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:18,880
And we are starting to see some
of some of those other things

1051
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:23,760
begin to fall by the wayside.
And I think as this continues, I

1052
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,360
think it'll only strengthen our
position.

1053
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:30,840
It is hard, though, to to make
that change whole cloth, right?

1054
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:35,920
Just it's, it's kind of like the
the story of Washington and the

1055
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:38,120
Cherry Tree.
Well, we're pretty sure at this

1056
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:41,080
point that he never actually
chopped down a Cherry Tree, but

1057
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:44,080
it illustrated a larger
principle about who the man was.

1058
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:49,240
And so I often approach these
sort of, you know, Mormon urge

1059
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,160
urban legends, if you will, with
that same sort of thing.

1060
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,920
Right.
OK, so maybe maybe these urban

1061
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:58,440
legends are just that, but what,
what it was it trying to convey,

1062
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:00,520
right.
In this case, we see that, you

1063
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:03,560
know, there's something in
second Nephi that was pretty,

1064
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,040
pretty rock solid in terms of
the understanding of, of what it

1065
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:10,560
was going to be.
And then from there, people

1066
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:14,480
began to add to or take away as
they seemed fit.

1067
01:11:14,480 --> 01:11:16,800
But I I don't think it's
anything that we should ever

1068
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:20,240
just dismiss whole cloth without
doing that scholarly work first.

1069
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:23,760
Well, if there's going to be a
layman, a prophet, I nominate

1070
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:28,000
Sean.
Sean could be the layman

1071
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:30,800
prophet.
You know what, I'm not even

1072
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,480
going to tip him off that this
is coming.

1073
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:34,320
I'm just going to wait for him
to listen.

1074
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:38,760
I could, I mean, like if I was a
super like if I was a really

1075
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:41,880
good friend, I probably should.
But I'm like, I know Sean well

1076
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:43,120
enough.
He'll get a kick out of this

1077
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:44,640
when he's just listening in his
truck.

1078
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:48,480
He's going to be like, what the
hell He's going to from here on

1079
01:11:48,480 --> 01:11:50,240
out.
He's going to ask to be on every

1080
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:52,800
podcast you and I do together
just to make sure that.

1081
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:56,200
Shawn Shawn Anderson.
That checks.

1082
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:57,440
That tracks.
I could see it.

1083
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,480
So yeah, no, that's that's good
stuff.

1084
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:04,000
Well, dude, this was fun.
We got to do this again.

1085
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:09,320
Yeah, for sure.
So anybody wants to come out to

1086
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:16,560
Sunstone?
It's August 2nd at 4:25 and

1087
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:22,360
usually I host the kickball
game, the famed kickball game at

1088
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,480
the end of the Sunstone, which
is ex Mormons versus

1089
01:12:25,480 --> 01:12:30,840
fundamentalists.
It's a it's a team outer

1090
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:35,000
darkness versus team higher law.
And we do it every year.

1091
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:39,720
Usually every year the
fundamentalists dominate, but

1092
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:42,160
last year we got beat by the X
MOS.

1093
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:46,560
They cancelled that kickball
game this year because of

1094
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:52,280
because of the umpire couldn't
make it and the coach for the X

1095
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:55,480
most couldn't make it.
But they're still having like a

1096
01:12:55,480 --> 01:12:59,880
a picnic that night and
storytelling at Sunnyside Park

1097
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:03,040
in Salt Lake.
And then on Friday they are

1098
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:08,800
doing a trivia game at Gilgal
Gardens, and I've never been

1099
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,840
there, but it's the place where
they have that sphinx statue of

1100
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,960
Joseph Smith.
They're doing a trivia game

1101
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:18,800
there.
And usually Jacob the Dream goes

1102
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:21,960
to those, and he does really
well in the trivia games because

1103
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:24,320
he knows everything, basically.
Everything.

1104
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:27,480
So everything is the the
operative word there.

1105
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:30,280
Dude.
I'm going to talk about your

1106
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:32,240
TikTok for a second if you got a
few minutes.

1107
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:35,200
Yeah, yeah, I got a.
Dude, how'd you get going in

1108
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:40,760
that?
Oh so I got started.

1109
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,120
A couple of people suggested it
to me.

1110
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:48,920
One guy he runs grill graphics
suggested I do a TikTok and he's

1111
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:52,440
one that just made my avatar
that I'm now using on as my

1112
01:13:52,440 --> 01:13:55,240
which is.
Killer, by the way, I like.

1113
01:13:55,240 --> 01:14:00,760
That then another one was a
TikTok creator named Maggie

1114
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,840
Babylon.
And Maggie Babylon was

1115
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:06,360
investigating fundamentalism
years ago.

1116
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:09,560
So she was on the Facebook page
Mormon fundamentalism that I

1117
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:12,640
admin.
And then she, she left the

1118
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:18,200
church, but she still does like
occasionally she she does like

1119
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:21,560
Mormon related content and she's
the one that told me she's like

1120
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:23,320
Marona, you need to be on
Tiktok.

1121
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:28,600
So I got a Tiktok going.
This was like in December of

1122
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:35,600
2021 or 2020, I believe.
I created a Tiktok, but I didn't

1123
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:37,760
dare make any videos for like
four months.

1124
01:14:38,440 --> 01:14:43,360
And then I started making it.
I talk about, I talk about

1125
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:46,680
Mormon fundamentalist content, I
talk about music.

1126
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:51,160
And but the thing that kind of
really hurts me a little bit is

1127
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:55,120
that the only time any of my
views get like high views or

1128
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:57,200
when I talk about the TV show
Sister Wives.

1129
01:14:57,200 --> 01:15:01,040
And for those of you who know
me, I hate the show Sister

1130
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:02,800
Wives.
I hate it with a passion.

1131
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:06,320
But and it happened just last
week.

1132
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:11,960
I had AI had AI had a video that
I made first time in a long time

1133
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:13,920
where I talked about sister
wives and it wound up getting

1134
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:17,880
like 15,000 views.
So the only time I get a lot of

1135
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:20,000
views are when I talk about that
show.

1136
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:23,040
But other than that, I just talk
about fundamental its principles

1137
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:26,320
and most of my videos don't get
that amount of views.

1138
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:30,240
But you know, I talk to people
on the daily kind of like you do

1139
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:35,280
you know, there's one creator
that I'm talking to that's

1140
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:37,520
really interesting.
She's, she's in ECMO.

1141
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:41,840
Her parents left the church when
she was a, a little girl, but

1142
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:47,000
she's been reading American Zion
by Benjamin Park and I, I

1143
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,240
haven't read that book yet.
I'm attending on it, but she's

1144
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:53,520
found it super interesting.
And so she's been making, she's

1145
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:55,640
reading along, she's making
Mormon content.

1146
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:59,240
And so I started responding to
her and we started making videos

1147
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:03,080
back and forth, you know, where
she would ask questions and I

1148
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,240
would answer them.
And it's been really

1149
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:07,200
interesting.
I mean, she's not even Mormon,

1150
01:16:07,720 --> 01:16:11,840
but she's talking about some,
you know, she asked about women

1151
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:13,560
in the priesthood.
And I said, well, let me tell

1152
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:18,280
you, my wife's doing.
She asked about blacks in the

1153
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:20,200
priesthood.
She asked about like all these

1154
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:22,920
other controversial doctrines
that I love talking about.

1155
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:26,640
So it's, it's been fun.
It's been a lot of fun, you

1156
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:27,000
know?
Well, dude.

1157
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:30,880
I, I love your content.
I mean, it's, it's one of my go

1158
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:33,800
to.
I mean, I hope, I hope someone

1159
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:36,600
from work isn't listening
because I, I might waste a

1160
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:38,920
little too much time.
Didn't say waste.

1161
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:42,960
I spend a little too much time
looking at it and stuff, but

1162
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:45,600
yeah, no.
So, yeah, everybody go check

1163
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:47,960
out, go check out Moroni's page.
It's awesome.

1164
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:50,160
You guys need to punk.
Rock Polygamous.

1165
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:52,080
Punk rock.
Polygamous.

1166
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:54,120
OK, we're going to wrap up with
this.

1167
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:56,360
What are you listening to now?
You're not getting out of here

1168
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:58,560
without telling me what you're
listening to these days with.

1169
01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:03,000
My gosh, I've been listening to
this really awesome podcast

1170
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:06,320
called Mormon Renegade Podcast.
Stop it, knock it off.

1171
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:08,680
I'm talking, I'm talking about
about your music.

1172
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:12,880
Oh well, you know what?
I spent all last week revisiting

1173
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:16,360
System of a Down, so I really
like System.

1174
01:17:16,440 --> 01:17:18,400
Of the Down.
There's some good stuff that

1175
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:22,560
System of the Down did.
Like the literally it's been on

1176
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:25,880
rotations all week, but by next
week I'll be moving on to

1177
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:28,280
something else so.
Nice, nice.

1178
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:31,960
Well dude, good stuff.
I appreciate you jumping on.

1179
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:35,480
Hey, thank you for having me on.
All right, man, let's do it

1180
01:17:35,480 --> 01:17:37,120
again soon.
Yep.

1181
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:39,160
All right, hang out for just 5
minutes.

1182
01:17:39,560 --> 01:18:12,240
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

1183
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:13,680
Renegade podcast.