Episode #143: The Book Of Enoch W/Adam Stokes

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There are many things that we
find echoes of Mormonism in.

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If we believe in Joseph Smith's
prophetic mantle, one place we

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shouldn't be surprised to find
those echoes is in the

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Apocrypha.
Now one of those books is called

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the Book of Enoch.
Today on the podcast, I have

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Adam Stokes on to talk about the
Book of Enoch.

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Now Adam is not only a believer
in the Restoration, but also has

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degrees from Duke and the Yale
School of Divinity and is also a

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professor.
He recently has been doing some

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work on the Book of Enoch.
In our conversation, we talk

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about what the Book of Enoch is,
how it was found.

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It's doctrinal emphasis is the
striking bull's eyes between the

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Book of Enoch and Joseph Smith's
translation of the Book of

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Mormon.
And finally, what we as Mormons

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today can take away from it.
That and more on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
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notes and get yours today.
You're listening to the Norman

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Adam.
How's it going, man?

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I'm.
Doing good Dave.

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Thanks for having me.
Thanks.

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Thanks for coming on, man.
It's it's I'm super glad to have

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you here.
I saw your presentation on the

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book of Enoch and I was like,
oh, I got to have him on because

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that sounds awesome.
So again, thanks.

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Thanks for being here.
So as, as we dive in, let me ask

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you this question.
You're, you're not a member of

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the LDS Church, you're not a
fundamentalist, but you are part

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of a Mormon branch, right?
A branch of the Restoration?

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And what branch is that?
The official name is the Church

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of Christ with the Elijah
message, the Assured way, the

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Lord.
That is an extremely long name.

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So we just call ourselves the
Elijah Message Church and we

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trace ourselves, yes, like you
said, a branch of the

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restoration.
But we trace ourselves back to

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David Whitmer and then to
Granville Hendrick, and then to

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our two kind of founding
prophets, Otto Feting and WA

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Draves, who received revelations
from John the Baptist, which

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make have a book of scripture
for us called the Word of the

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Lord.
But we also accept the Book of

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Mormon, which we call the record
of the Nephites and the King

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James Version of the Bible.
So we're similar to the other

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Restoration branches, the other
Latter Day Saints traditions in

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that regard.
What about like the Doctrine and

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Covenants do you guys?
Excellent question.

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So we accept the 1st 15 or 16 of
the Doctrine and Covenants.

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We prefer.
We have a preference for the

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Book of Commandments, the first
kind of 15 revelations of the

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Book of Commandments.
But what what eventually becomes

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the 1st 16 chapters of the
Doctrine and Covenants we do

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accept officially.
Unofficially, we have accepted

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different parts of the Doctrine
and Covenant.

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So Section 84 where it talks
about the temple being built in

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Missouri is extremely important
for us and was referenced in

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past church literature.
But officially, we only accept

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the 1st 16 revelations of the
Doctrine and Covenants. 10-4

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check All right, so let me ask
you this because I'm curious

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now.
Now I got to ask some questions.

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So do you guys, so I'm I'm
guessing if it's just that first

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sixteen and then kind of 84, you
guys probably aren't into plural

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marriage in is that correct?
No, no.

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Ironically, it's interesting you
mentioned that, Dave.

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We don't think that Joseph
practice what plural marriage,

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how can I put it?
We don't think that Joseph

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Joseph his big his big sin was
plural marriage.

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Joseph Smith's big sin for us
was not building the temple in

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Missouri.
So we think that Joseph had a

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threefold mission, one to re
establish a church as it was in

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New Testament times.
The 2nd to bring about the Book

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of Mormon to translate the Book
of Mormon so that modern readers

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can read it.
And then thirdly, to build the

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temple in the temple in
Missouri, almost at Jerusalem,

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but in Missouri.
So yes, no.

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So Joseph Smith didn't fulfill
that third part.

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So that was where he committed a
major sin.

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But we don't really talk too
much about the polygamy part.

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Gotcha gotcha.
Now let let me ask you this, do

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you guys have a temple currently
or are you waiting for that

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temple to be built in in Jackson
County?

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We are waiting for the temple to
be built in Jackson County on

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the temple lot grounds.
So the temple Lot is our most

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sacred spot.
That that's very special to us.

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In fact, I was telling you
earlier, when I go out to

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General Conference I will always
try to make a stop on the temple

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lot.
Gotcha.

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Gotcha.
Dude.

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That's fascinating.
So do you guys have like other

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revelations other than that that
like 16 and like kind of 84?

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Do you guys have like an open
cannon?

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Yes, well, the worst.
So our third Scripture is called

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the Word of the Lord, and those
are the revelations that John

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the Baptist gave to Otto Feting
and to WA Dre.

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So that's our third book of
Scripture.

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And if you read it, it's very
similar in some ways to the

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Doctrine Covenant.
It's revelations.

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It's revelations given to
specific people within the

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church, as well as talking about
current events in the world.

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So it's kind of very similar to
that type of format.

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But that's our third book of
Scripture.

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And so that's kind of what
distinguishes us from the rest

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of the restoration branches.
10-4 dude, that's fascinating.

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That's good stuff.
All right, Well, cool.

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So were you raised in this in
this faith tradition or did you

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convert or how did you get here?
I was not raised in the Larity

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St. tradition.
I was raised a traditional black

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Baptist.
And yeah, I was baptized when I

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was a teenager, late in my
teens, around 16 or 17.

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I was, I was a member of a
wonderful Baptist Church for

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many years, Zion Baptist Church
in Baltimore, MD.

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And I was a member of that up
until my mid 20s.

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And then I kind of had a crisis
of faith, Dave.

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My life kind of went to kaput.
Just things, a lot of things

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fell apart.
I was dating a girl in Missouri,

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in Kansas City, MO, that fell
apart.

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My academic career, the
trajectory I was on fell apart.

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And I kind of had a faith
crisis.

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So I wasn't any religious
affiliation for many years.

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And then I found at a conference
I used to go to, the Society of

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Biblical Literature conference,
there was a kiosk that BYU had,

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and they had a copy of the
Joseph Smith translation.

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I was really interested about
it, in it because I didn't know

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anything about the Joseph Smith
translation other than that it

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was a modified version of the
King, King James Version.

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So I was curious about that
because my research, I was in

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religious studies at the time
and my research was on kind of

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the history of interpretation of
the King James Bible.

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So I got this CD-ROM with the
Joseph Smith translation on it,

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and I was just kind of blown
away because the perspective and

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basically the retelling or the
alternate version that gives the

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Genesis story was for me so
uplifting.

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I guess it's kind of goes to
kind of your fundamentalist

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background with Adam, God,
etcetera.

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But just the fact that, you
know, God doesn't reject Adam,

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but God in fact exalt forgives
Adam, exalts Adam to the, you

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know, the stats of the
priesthood, exalts him to become

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the Ancient of Days was
something that was, was was

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really comforting for me coming
from a Protestant background

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where we always look at the
story of Adam and Eve was this

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irreversible sin that Adam did
and God never forgave him and

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Adam's this total loser for
eternity and turning eternity.

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So that was that was something
that was really comforting and

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amazing to me.
And that was my that was kind of

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my my Segway into the book of
Mormons.

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So I've told others about this.
I'll tell you about it, but I

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was celebrating my wife's one.
Well, our one year anniversary

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of marriage, this is back in
2013.

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We were at a Marriott Hotel in
Princeton.

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My wife had went to get Chinese
food and I started, I found a

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Book of Mormon at the at the
room in the room, excuse me,

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that we were staying in.
And so I start reading it and I

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literally have this mystical
experience where I'm pulled into

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the world.
I see I'm in some type of woods

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and there's some Lamanites
running around.

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Now take that as you will, you
know, believe me, don't believe

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me, but I would go, I would go
on record as saying I even be

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psychologically evaluated and
saying, you know, that's what

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happened.
That's exactly what happened.

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So after that I knew the Book of
Mormon was was true and I knew

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that I had to be part of a
community for which the Book of

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Mormon was true.
So I scouted around a little

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bit.
I hung out with some bicker

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tonight's but their church was
kind of too far away for me to

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get to.
I was economically struggling at

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the time.
I couldn't even get decent gas

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money to go a long trips.
So I ended up going to a

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community of Christchurch down
the street, which I loved.

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Very traditional, believing in
the inspired version, AKA the

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Joseph Smith translation, the
Book of Mormon and adoption and

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covenants.
But I had some larger problems

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with the denomination as a
whole, namely they're kind of

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rejection of the Book of Mormon.
And so that led me to be in

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conversation with some elders in
the Elijah Message Church, and I

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was in communication with them
for several years, and then I

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decided to join them in 2020.
Wow, wow.

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So it's a very, that's a very
long story.

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No, no, no, no.
That's that's awesome.

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It's always good to to let let
the people we're talking to, so

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to speak, know where you're
coming from.

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I wasn't born a Mormon either.
I'm the only Mormon on either

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side of my family.
Oh wow.

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And yeah, so I, I joined the LDS
church as a kid, but I can, I

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can really resonate with with
what you're, what you say there

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in terms of especially dealing
with Adam.

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There's there's this idea that
that the father of us all is

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within Protestantism is the the
the catalyst for all of our pain

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and sorrow and and even more
than him, Eve and I didn't I

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didn't get down with that right
as I looked back through history

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and I studied Western sieve.
What what I noticed was is that

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the, the, and I'll use this in
quotes, traditional telling of,

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of the Adam and Eve story is, is
a, a mechanism for really doing

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some pretty horrible things to
women throughout time, right?

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It's women's fault.
Joseph comes along and Joseph

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turns that on it on his head
right through revelation.

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He says, no, no, no, no, no, we
don't.

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They're not the cause of our
pain.

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They're the source of us being
here.

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And not just that they're,
they're exalted individuals.

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And, and that, that was wild to
me, right, That that something

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could be turned up the, you
know, and the, and for me on, on

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my end.
The other thing was I lost my,

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my dad when I was 13.
And my dad wasn't particularly

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religious.
He believed in God, right?

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And it's not like we read the
Bible a whole bunch, but we

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talked about God a little bit in
our house.

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But the thought that my dad,
because he didn't say, you know,

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the magic words of, of I accept
Jesus as my Lord and Savior on

224
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,800
his deathbed.
He's he's gone now.

225
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,720
That didn't sit well with me.
I'm like, if God is both just

226
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,640
and loving, well you're really
missing the loving part here on

227
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:15,600
this.
Yeah, yeah.

228
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,520
Right.
And so I found Mormonism to be

229
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,520
one of those things that allowed
me to really, you know, find

230
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,520
hope and peace.
Yeah.

231
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,480
And I think message.
Yeah, I think our journeys are

232
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,280
very similar in that regard.
I could believe it was precisely

233
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,080
because of Mormonism that I
could believe in a loving, kind

234
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,040
and compassionate God again
after so many years.

235
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,920
I, I think my initial rejection
of God when I was going through

236
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,800
everything was a view that, you
know, there's ultimately no

237
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,280
loving God that existed.
And I think Mormonism, when I

238
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,040
was exposed to Joseph, the
translation, the Book of Mormon,

239
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,000
they revealed this, that this
very loving God, who and one of

240
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,400
the most powerful statements, I
think, Dave, that I've ever read

241
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,840
in the Restoration scriptures is
that, you know, they heard the

242
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,040
voice of the Lord calling to
them.

243
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,800
Even though they were shut out
from their from God's presence,

244
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,720
God never stopped having a
relationship with them.

245
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,760
If you read just the simple King
James Bible where you read the

246
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,160
mesoretic text, you know, God
kicks them out.

247
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:17,920
It's done.
God never even speaks to Adam

248
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:19,240
and Eve again.
But in the Joseph Smith

249
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,400
translation, he sends angels, he
speaks to them.

250
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,640
You know, they can't see him,
but he still speaks to them and

251
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,880
he has a relationship with them
and a very intimate and he

252
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,320
exalts Adam to this.
Basically, we go with

253
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,840
fundamentalist thought to as
high as as you as you can go.

254
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,000
So you know that that was just,
that was really powerful for me

255
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,080
and really, really comforting.
One of the things that always

256
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,840
struck me about that account,
even in the King James Version,

257
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:52,160
is that Adam and Eve, they they
take of the fruit and Adam and

258
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,600
Eve don't go seek their God out.
Their God seeks them out.

259
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,120
Yeah, even.
And, and look, God wasn't

260
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,560
surprised, right?
Even though he, he asked them

261
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,440
questions and whatnot, he's not
surprised at what just went

262
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,280
down, right?
I mean, he, he knows exactly

263
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:12,360
what happened.
And in that moment, even in, in

264
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,120
that moment when Adam's partaken
of the fruit and disobeyed a

265
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,920
commandment, even though they
were kind of given two competing

266
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,480
commandments, he, they disobeyed
that one.

267
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,000
God's like, I'm not done with
you, right?

268
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,440
And, and God is the one seeking
them out, you know, and, and,

269
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,080
and I think that's so indicative
of, of who God really is, right?

270
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:41,600
So often we, we, we think that
that this return to God is like

271
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,600
he, he's far away.
He, he's, he, you know, I'll

272
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,080
never be able to get back.
That's not the case, right?

273
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,920
He's right there.
He's like, just turn around,

274
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,800
just stop what you're doing,
turn around and come back.

275
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,120
And, and I, I think there's a
certain beauty there that, that

276
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,040
I think we should all be able to
resonate with being mortals and

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00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,400
fallen and, and having to, to
make that return back to God.

278
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,520
It's not as far as what the
adversary would have us believe.

279
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,880
I, I think the story about Adam
and Eve is really the story

280
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:09,560
about us.
I think whenever you read the

281
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,080
scriptures, you know, it's not
just a story about these ancient

282
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,680
people who lived long ago.
Yes, it is that, but it's also

283
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,800
our story.
And we, we see our, we see our

284
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,120
own struggles.
We see our own situations and

285
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,840
their situations.
Absolutely.

286
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,080
So you you're from Baltimore
originally?

287
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,040
I'm from Baltimore, yeah.
So I lived for about two years

288
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,600
out on the Eastern Shore of
Maryland.

289
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,080
Oh, we're on the Eastern Shore.
Salisbury.

290
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,280
My my people are actually from
my my mom's side of the family

291
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,600
is from Salisbury, a small town,
dim, witty, I think.

292
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,160
I know where that's at.
I know where that's at.

293
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:48,960
So I so I worked in Salisbury
for a time and then I I lived in

294
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,000
Princess Anne.
OK.

295
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,720
And then I later switched jobs
and worked in Ocean City as

296
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,000
well.
Yeah, I love the Eastern Shore.

297
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,520
I love Ocean City.
Yeah, I used to when it were

298
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,040
years ago, I was a page for the
Maryland General Assembly, which

299
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,599
basically you could call the
legislature to legislators and

300
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,800
mayor of Ocean City used to come
in all the time.

301
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:16,920
So I was actually buddies with
him and my I had an aunt who

302
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,200
owned this very small hotel down
Ocean City and we would go like

303
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,280
every year.
But I, I, I love the Eastern

304
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,920
Shore.
Absolutely beautiful and I loved

305
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,440
Ocean City.
So you know what?

306
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,720
I've been there.
Did you ever eat at Anthony's?

307
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:29,400
It's right.
Yes.

308
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,400
Yes, I did.
Yes, dude, Anthony's.

309
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,360
I miss those sandwiches.
Yeah, those grinders.

310
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,160
Oh, I miss those sandwiches.
I wanted to fly back from time

311
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,280
to time just to grab a grinder
from Anthony's so.

312
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,600
Yeah, yeah.
Not that I expect it, but if

313
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,520
anyone in you know that works at
Anthony's, shout out to you

314
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,560
guys.
The last time I was in Anthony's

315
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,080
was 2017.
My son Gavin, who's 7 now, he

316
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,080
had just started walking and I
was there with my with my mom

317
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,840
and dad, My dad since past now,
but that was kind of that was

318
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,960
one of the last times that we
were together before his health

319
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,440
went to went to kaput.
So, but yes, I, I loved

320
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,440
Anthony's, I love Ocean City.
Yeah, no, Ocean City was

321
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,520
fantastic.
Their boardwalk was awesome.

322
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,320
I mean, yeah, I definitely
enjoyed my time out there.

323
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,360
So awesome.
Good stuff.

324
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,680
Yeah, die hard Orioles fan and
Ravens fan.

325
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,280
I like the Orioles more, but
also a Ravens fan.

326
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:29,160
You know, all right, so I, I got
to see a few Ravens games while

327
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:34,200
I was there and we, the company
I worked for, if you did a

328
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,080
really good job and your
projects came under budget and

329
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,480
everything else, one of the
rewards that was on the table

330
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,720
was either going to see an O's
game or a Ravens game.

331
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,720
And so I would go see the Ravens
play.

332
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,240
And once as kind of a added
bonus, they had a few of the

333
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,680
players walk up and meet
everybody in the in the suites.

334
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:59,160
And what I remember is Ray Lewis
is a scary, scary man.

335
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,120
So nice guy, but man that dude
was intense.

336
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,680
Yeah, yeah.
So I never met him.

337
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,320
I met some, I met some other
players, but I never I never met

338
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,960
Ray Lewis.
So yeah, yeah, No it.

339
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,320
Was it was good stuff for sure.
But so dude, what was your

340
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:17,680
fascination with the Book of
Enoch?

341
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,560
Yes, yes.
So that kind of goes to the

342
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:27,560
Joseph Smith translation.
So I'm, I was really interested

343
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,840
in kind of the Enoch material in
the book of Moses, chapters 6

344
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,840
through 867, Genesis six and
seven in the Joseph Smith

345
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:43,480
translation.
And the, the chapter Chapter 7,

346
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,040
especially for me has always
been very powerful with this

347
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,080
notion of the city of Enoch and
this place of perfect peace and

348
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:56,640
perfect rest, the city of God
that God takes to itself.

349
00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,040
That's been very powerful for
me.

350
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,120
And I think, you know, even
though we don't officially

351
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:07,720
acknowledge in my tradition the
Joseph Smith translation or, or

352
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,560
book or the Book of Moses.
I think that that kind of

353
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,000
undergirds a lot of our theology
about the temple and the temple

354
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,800
lot in my own tradition.
So Moses seven has always been

355
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,240
something that's been very has
always been a very, very special

356
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,720
text for me ever since I was
exposed to restoration.

357
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,400
But I was always kind of curious
as to what's going on with some

358
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,800
of the racial elements in there.
So you have this beautiful

359
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,480
description of the city of
Enoch, but then you have these

360
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,480
people, these people of Cain who
are, who are described as black,

361
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,640
whom Enoch is not preaching to.
And I was always like, what's

362
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,880
going on there?
What's up with that?

363
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,040
And so that kind of got me into,
you know, further researching

364
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,040
this.
And that's where the, the, the

365
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,400
article, the people of Canaan
and Interpreter Journal came up.

366
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,560
So, and that's how that was
created out of my interest in

367
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,400
that.
So I had a wonderful, wonderful

368
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,360
time writing that article,
researching for that article,

369
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,680
and I think it even brought me
even closer to the Joseph Smith

370
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,440
translation.
Awesome.

371
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,800
So let let's get some historical
background here on the Book of

372
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,720
Enoch.
Then real quick about what about

373
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,120
when is the book of Enoch
discovered?

374
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,640
Or maybe the the right word is
rediscovered, right, Because it,

375
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,640
it, it kind of, it obviously
disappears out of out of what

376
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,520
would be considered the, the
King James version of the Canon,

377
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,920
right?
I don't think it gets put into

378
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,240
the Geneva Bible or the OR the
the other one.

379
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,680
I'm blind.
So we we have the Book of Enoch

380
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,160
explicitly mentioned in the
Epistle of Jews.

381
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,960
So Epistle of Jews written in
Greek, it quotes from it.

382
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,640
I believe it quotes from the
first or second chapter

383
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:59,920
explicitly of the book of Enoch.
But yeah, and we we know that it

384
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,520
was popular among the church
fathers they cited from time to

385
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,480
time.
But then it just like you said,

386
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:11,240
man, it just disappears for like
centuries and kind of re emerges

387
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:16,520
with modern biblical scholarship
in the 18th and 19th centuries.

388
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,800
So people find the Greek text
again, they translate it into

389
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,920
French.
They translate it into English.

390
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,960
After Joseph Smith's time gets
translated into English.

391
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,800
After the publication of the
Book of Mormon, it gets

392
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,000
translated into English.
And so now we have a bit, but

393
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,080
nobody really makes reference to
it.

394
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,760
You know, in the Middle Ages,
the medieval, medieval fathers,

395
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,760
the medieval writers, they don't
really make reference to it at

396
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,720
all.
The only church that's really

397
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,440
caring about the Book of Enoch,
I would say, is the Ethiopian

398
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,360
church, for whom it's part of
their Canon.

399
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,200
Not even the, you know, the
Greek Orthodox don't even have

400
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:54,880
it as really part of their
Canon.

401
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,400
I don't believe.
So for Western Christianity, it

402
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,600
just kind of falls off the map.
And it's not really, yeah,

403
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,200
discovered until modern biblical
scholarship where you get an

404
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:11,280
interest in apocalyptic text,
apocalyptic scriptures, and then

405
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,960
it becomes popular again.
I think it's gained really a lot

406
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,000
of prominence in the 20th
century when you've had the

407
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,800
finding of all these apocryphal
texts, Nakamati, the Dead Sea

408
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,680
Scrolls, etcetera.
The Book of Enoch has has really

409
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,320
gained popularity.
One of my teachers when I was in

410
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,160
Vedic school, he published a
translation of the Book of

411
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:35,720
Enoch, John Collins, I believe.
Well, first Enoch, as he calls

412
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,040
it.
So, yeah, very, very popular

413
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,080
now.
But most Christians, I would say

414
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,000
for most of Christendom in the
West, didn't even know what it

415
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,920
know about it or even know it
was quoted from that the book of

416
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,960
Jude was was quoting from it.
How was it rediscovered?

417
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:58,120
I'm not, you know, two things.
I think that, you know, when

418
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:03,200
people start retranslating Greek
text into different languages

419
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,120
during the advent of modern
biblical studies, the Book of

420
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:10,240
Enoch comes into play.
The Dead Sea Scrolls, I know

421
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,720
this is later, this is way after
the 19th century, but in the

422
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,640
1940s when they're discovered,
there are some fragments of

423
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,000
Enoch which kind of shed light
on the Greek version of Enoch.

424
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:29,880
And so people start to do a
comparison studies, and so that

425
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,520
becomes popular.
So I would say, you know,

426
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,040
rediscovery in the Greek text in
the 18th and 19th century and

427
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,680
the Hebrew and Aramaic fragments
of the Book of Enoch that we get

428
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,120
in the 20th century kind of
revive interest in that.

429
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:48,000
So I think that, you know, in
some ways people know about the

430
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,600
Book of Enoch, but they don't
know about it.

431
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,520
They know that there's a Greek
text of Enoch that exists, you

432
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,880
know, in prior to the 18th
century, but nobody's really

433
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,240
sought to like translate it.
You can't really read it unless

434
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,560
you know Greek.
And so people, people just don't

435
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,560
unless you're, unless you're a
scholar, you don't really touch

436
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,520
it.
So when when it is discovered,

437
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,920
you said it was just a fragment
within within the the Dead Sea

438
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,480
Scrolls, correct?
Yeah, So the, so the Greek text,

439
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,680
it wasn't like the Greek.
So I, I should probably clarify

440
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,520
here because I, I'm, I'm
probably sounding a little bit

441
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,640
confusing, but no, the Greek
text always existed.

442
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,880
It was just that if you didn't
know Greek, you didn't have

443
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,360
access to it, you couldn't read
it.

444
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,440
But then there were alternate
versions of Enoch that were

445
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,240
found among the Dead Sea Scrolls
in the 1940s that were written

446
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,440
in Hebrew and Aramaic, which are
likely the original language

447
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,760
that the Book of Enoch was
written in.

448
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,200
So the Greek that we have is
probably a translation, but

449
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,680
there's also, there's Hebrew and
Aramaic versions of the Book of

450
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,600
Enoch.
And so people start comparing

451
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,680
those with the Greek.
And I think that's one of the

452
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,720
things that and just as general
interest in apocalyptic

453
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,320
literature in the 20th century,
that's one of the things that

454
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,160
revises, that revives interest
in the Book of Enoch.

455
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,040
I got you so so we there's that
fragment that's discovered with

456
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,280
the with the Dead Sea Scrolls.
We know that but but we have the

457
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:15,440
full codec, so to speak yes with
the with the Greek right now.

458
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,360
This is a OK, spoiler alert.
This will come into play a

459
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:24,480
little, little later to really
testify of Joseph's prophetic

460
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,160
mission.
Joseph would not have any access

461
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,600
to the Book of Enoch in his day,
correct?

462
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,880
No, there is possibly a French
version.

463
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,040
I've checked the dates on this
stage, but I I'm pretty sure

464
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,800
you're 99.9% correct.
I think there might have been a

465
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,600
French translation.
There is no English translation

466
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,480
until after the book publication
of the Book of Mormon and

467
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,080
several years several decades
after the founding of the of the

468
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:53,040
Latter St.
Church.

469
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,680
And I think it's probably pretty
safe to say that Joseph was not

470
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,600
fluent in French.
Yeah, he, you know, you you read

471
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,000
some of his notes.
And and again, because of the

472
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,760
times we're in, we're in, we're
in colonial, you know, just past

473
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,000
colonial America, where he's
living pretty much his whole

474
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,200
life on the frontier.
He's not going to have access to

475
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:13,840
this book.
Got you.

476
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,280
OK.
Now let's move in.

477
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:17,440
Move into this.
Adam.

478
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,040
What?
Let's talk a little bit about

479
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,520
what the book contains.
Yeah.

480
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:27,600
So the Book of Enoch, the
original Book of Enoch contains.

481
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,520
It's basically, it's got a
little bit of everything.

482
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:36,400
So there's narrative, there's
poetry, there's basically

483
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,560
prophecies of Enoch.
So we get the story of Enoch

484
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,000
interacting with these guys
called the Watchers, who are

485
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,720
these really cool beings.
There's a lot of in reception

486
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,400
history.
So in movies and in film we talk

487
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,080
about the you see the Watchers
in like sci-fi movies.

488
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,200
In the Darren Aronski movie Noah
that was made in 2014 with

489
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,560
Russell Crowe.
You had the the Watchers, the

490
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,040
kind of these rock people.
Yeah, it was kind of, it was

491
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,400
kind of cheesy, but they were
originally these beings of

492
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,040
light.
So you have these Watchers who

493
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,760
are really fascinating.
You also get the watchers in the

494
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,120
book of Daniel, but you get them
very prominently in the book of

495
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:17,040
Enoch.
And then you have an alternate

496
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:23,440
Noah story where Noah seems to
have been conceived by the Binay

497
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,720
Elohim or the the sons of God
who were mentioned in the

498
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,720
biblical book of the biblical,
excuse me, the biblical Noah

499
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,480
story in Genesis chapter 6
through 9.

500
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:40,840
So you have you have basically
Noah, even though he is in the

501
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,800
biblical story said to have been
spared because he was the one

502
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,720
righteous person or his family
were the one were the righteous

503
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,600
people away from the sons of the
sons of God who are having

504
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,360
intercourse with the daughters
of men.

505
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,960
He himself seems to have been
born from these Binet Elohim.

506
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,880
So he has a kind of this
supernatural type of lineage to

507
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,880
him.
So there's kind of an alternate,

508
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,320
alternate Noah story there.
And then you have a kind of this

509
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,600
apocalypse towards the end of
the book where you have the

510
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,680
righteous, the children of the
light, the righteous who are

511
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,120
fighting against the children of
evil and the children of evil

512
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,440
persecute them and oppress them.
But at the end of the day, God

513
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,280
comes and delivers the
righteous.

514
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,360
So there's a lot going on there.
Some of it's toll through, like

515
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,080
I said, narrative through prose.
Other things are told through

516
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,080
kind of poetry.
So Enoch's prophecies are very

517
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,040
kind of poetical, but it's all
kind of mixed in there.

518
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,520
It's kind of a hodgepodge, and
we know kind of from the

519
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,440
choppiness of the Book of Enoch,
that's probably not just one

520
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,360
author writing it, but a bunch
of sources that were combined to

521
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,880
one book.
OK.

522
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,720
And, and, and this, this brings
me to another question, when,

523
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,120
when we're looking at those
various codexes, right, whether

524
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,720
it's that portion of the Dead
Sea Scrolls or the Greek or the

525
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:04,120
Ethiopian, do we get a sense
that there's some continuity

526
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,640
that seems to be there in those
different codexes?

527
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,440
Do we find major differences
that should concern us?

528
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,880
What, what?
What do we find there?

529
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,440
There are major differences, but
there is basically the structure

530
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,920
is the same and the overarching
theme of the righteous being

531
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:25,000
persecuted by the wicked and the
wicked having absolute power on

532
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,320
the earth until God comes.
That's a theme and that is a

533
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,760
current that runs through all
these traditions, but they do

534
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,040
have different things to them.
So Slovakian Enoch, for example,

535
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:40,120
which is another version of the
Book of Enoch has some some

536
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,720
significant variants.
So there's an ascension of Enoch

537
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,320
in this the Slovakian version of
the Book of Enoch that you don't

538
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,240
get in other versions of the
book of Enoch.

539
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,600
So there are some, there are
some significant differences,

540
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,960
but the main, the main theme,
the main arc of the story is the

541
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,920
same in all of them.
OK, all right, and and I think

542
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,720
it's important here to to point
out that IA lot of these

543
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,680
stories, we we get this idea
that that everything is always

544
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,560
written down right now, now,
certainly, you know, there

545
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,520
there's some things that that we
find in the Pearl of great price

546
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,520
where Adam is commanded to keep
a book of remembrance, right?

547
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,360
But you, you get a sense that
some of this record keeping, so

548
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,480
to speak, stops for a time,
right, which would make sense

549
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,640
with just how people are.
I mean, we're look, I'll be the

550
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,400
first to admit I'm horribly
lazy.

551
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,720
Given the opportunity from doing
something good to sitting on the

552
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,080
couch and watching football.
I'm taking the second option all

553
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:48,240
day, right?
Excuse me, but a lot of the the

554
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,640
biblical narrative that we find,
especially it it when it comes

555
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,120
to Genesis, that seems to be a
lot of oral tradition that gets

556
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,080
passed down 1st.
And so I'd imagine Enoch would

557
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,160
be much the same way.
Yeah, yeah.

558
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,120
I think, you know, I always tell
my students this.

559
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,240
I used to teach an Old Testament
class at Saint Joseph's

560
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,560
University.
Shout out to the Eagles.

561
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,800
But I used to tell my, I used to
tell my, my students in that

562
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,000
class that, you know, back in
the day, Jesus, the Lord, Jesus,

563
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,920
the Apostle Paul, the Apostle
Peter, they had the Old

564
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,040
Testament in their head.
They weren't really writing it

565
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,440
down.
Now it was written down.

566
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,800
But this was stuff that people
memorize through like oral

567
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,680
tradition.
And that's why you get so many,

568
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:30,680
especially with the Bible
itself.

569
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,560
That's why you get so many
variants at times.

570
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,200
But this was stuff that they
memorized.

571
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,040
One of the things I like to, I'm
also a Latin teacher and one of

572
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,560
the things I like to torment my
students with is making them

573
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,400
memorize passages of the Latin
Vulgate.

574
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,960
And I'm like, you know, if Paul
could memorize the entire Old

575
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,320
Test Old Testament in his head,
you can memorize, you know,

576
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,280
these little passages, so.
Yeah, you're, you're rough on

577
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:53,280
those kids.
Holy cow.

578
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,080
No, it's.
Latin by the end of it, yes,

579
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,360
that's.
That's awesome.

580
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:01,920
Very cool.
A lot of this was oral

581
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,320
tradition.
So like, so Genesis especially,

582
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,680
that's a great example.
So scholars would say there are

583
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,960
multiple sources that and I
don't know how much I buy this.

584
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,800
I, I don't really buy this, but
I'll just give the scholarly

585
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,080
consent, the Skali view that,
you know, there are multiple

586
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,240
sources for the Pentateuch,
multiple sources for Genesis.

587
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:25,440
So J we call them J&E, the
Yahwest, the Eloist, and that

588
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,360
these were originally oral
traditions that were written

589
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,760
down and combined into combined
together.

590
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,400
So and I think the same thing is
going on with Enoch and that

591
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,280
would explain some of the
differences and discrepancies

592
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,000
that we have with the different
versions of Enoch.

593
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,600
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594
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,600
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595
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,400
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596
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597
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,400
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598
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,360
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599
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,920
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600
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,080
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601
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,719
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

602
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,480
So and I think the same thing is
going on with Enoch and that

603
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,360
would explain some of the
differences and discrepancies

604
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,000
that we have with the different
versions of Enoch.

605
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,639
So let me ask you this as a guy
who's both a man of faith as

606
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:32,880
well as a scholar, when you look
at the Book of Enoch, do you see

607
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,120
it would be unfair to say it's,
it's a complete historical

608
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,800
record, right?
But do you see something there

609
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,480
that lends credence to, hey,
this is important, and some of

610
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,400
this might be a little more
literal than we would like to

611
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,639
admit?
Yeah, well, I take, you know, I,

612
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,040
I take the Book of Enoch very
seriously.

613
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,200
I know some of in academia, most
people would say that's

614
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,400
mythology, it's metaphor.
I don't see it like that because

615
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,960
I view Genesis.
I take Genesis 6 and 9629 very

616
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,720
seriously as a person of faith.
You know, I believe in the

617
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:09,840
supernatural.
I believe in supernatural

618
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,640
beings.
And I think that with the book

619
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,960
of Enoch, we have a testament
just like we do with with the

620
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,960
material in Genesis.
We have a testament of somebody

621
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,840
who is experiencing the
supernatural and having

622
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,800
encounters with supernatural
beings.

623
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:33,680
And so I think that, you know,
there might be different at

624
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,080
times different agendas and
different emphases in these

625
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,200
different versions of Enoch.
But at their core, they are

626
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:45,520
relating for my, in my view, a
historical event of a person's

627
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,560
encounter a, a, a biblical
patriarchs encounter with the

628
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,080
supernatural.
OK.

629
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,560
There's there's one particular
part in in the Book of Enoch

630
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,320
that I found fascinating, and
that's this ascension.

631
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,200
He seems that he that it's the
seven heavens, right?

632
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:03,800
Yes.
Yes.

633
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,480
Can you explain that a little
bit to the listeners out there?

634
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,960
What what happens in in that
part of the story?

635
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,360
Yeah, I'm a little bit rusty on
that part.

636
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,920
It's been a, it's been a while.
But yes, he ascends through, he

637
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,960
ascends through the different
heavens and there's kind of

638
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,600
different things in each of the
heavens.

639
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,160
And then the last heaven he
actually sees, I believe the

640
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,520
throne of God is now, like I
said, David, it's been a while.

641
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,760
I believe he sees the throne of
God.

642
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,920
And there is some in kind of
Jewish lingo, some murk of a

643
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:41,480
mysticism, so throne mysticism
that that Enoch experiences.

644
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,520
And it's a very kind of esoteric
passage, a little bit confusing,

645
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,520
and I think deliberately so,
because this is a mystical

646
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,000
vision that Enoch cannot really
fully explain, that the writers

647
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,600
of the Book of Enoch cannot
fully explain.

648
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,360
Gotcha, gotcha.
So let me ask you this because

649
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,440
because this is something I've
always kind of wondered when we

650
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,320
start looking at at Moses 6-7
and I believe 8, don't quote me

651
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,640
on that.
We find a lot in there about

652
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:09,720
Enoch.
Yes.

653
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:14,600
Now here here's what I want to
talk about for for just a

654
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,000
minute.
How many bullseye again, Joseph

655
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,080
not having access to this text
the the book of Enoch.

656
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:28,720
Do we find any places where we
see Joseph get it right in the

657
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:33,400
Book of Moses that would lend
credence to this idea that he

658
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,720
knew maybe a little more about
Enoch than just about anybody at

659
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:41,240
that time?
Because what are those?

660
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,080
Absolutely.
I think, you know, I think that

661
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,880
Joseph focusing on Enoch
himself, that's not something

662
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,520
that anybody would have done at
that time.

663
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,760
Like I said, Enoch's not very
popular at the time that, you

664
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,600
know, Joseph was receiving the
revelation that will become, you

665
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,800
know, the Pearl, the material in
the Pearl of great price.

666
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,080
If you look at other kind of
mystical thinkers before him,

667
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,360
Emanuel Swedenborg, for example,
they're not quoting the Book of

668
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,320
Enoch.
They don't even care about the

669
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:09,600
book of Enoch.
They don't even know about the

670
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,440
book of Enoch.
So that the fact that Joseph is

671
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,640
telling us about Enoch, that
Joseph chooses to folk that

672
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,080
whatever Joseph is receiving
focuses on Enoch, I think that

673
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,840
in of itself lends credence that
that he is he is onto something

674
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,240
here, that he's tapped into
something here.

675
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:31,840
The way that Enoch is described
in the book of Moses in chapters

676
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,720
6 through through eight is very
similar to the way that Enoch is

677
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:40,080
described in the book of Enoch.
So as being someone persecuted

678
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,400
for his righteousness, but is
ultimately protected, but

679
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,840
someone who is also ultimately
protected by God.

680
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,320
So God tells in the book of
Moses, God says open your mouth

681
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,680
and nobody will harm you.
Well, if you read the book of

682
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:56,480
Enoch, you know, Enoch is this
righteous person.

683
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,040
He faces his persecution from
the from the wicked, from the

684
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,400
children of darkness, but he
eventually overcomes through

685
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:04,840
God's help, through God's
guidance.

686
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,840
And he has a mystical vision of
God's throne.

687
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,920
And this is very similar to what
happens with Enoch, Enoch

688
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,200
chapter in, excuse me, in the
book of Moses.

689
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,720
So in Enoch chapter 6, Enoch is
this righteous prophet being

690
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:19,880
persecuted and then he has this
mystical vision of the city of

691
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,400
God, of the city of Enoch that
God takes up to himself.

692
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,200
So there are some very strong
correspondences between the

693
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,080
material and the book of Moses.
And in the the apocryphal Book

694
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:40,200
of Enoch, one of my dear
friends, David Linsley, sorry,

695
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:46,720
David Hocking, David Hocking, he
has written a few books on the

696
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,320
on the Restoration scripture.
So he has a beautiful annotated

697
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,440
Book of Mormon.
He also has an annotated book of

698
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,640
Enoch and he compares the
material in the Book of Enoch

699
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,080
with the material in the Book of
Moses.

700
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,520
He shows and and Doctor Hocking
shows in his work.

701
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:06,760
How basically?
Joseph seems to have known stuff

702
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,240
about the Book of Enoch that it
would have been impossible for

703
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:12,960
him to know.
Hugh Nibley as well, who I know

704
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,800
you know about the great, the
great ancient American, excuse

705
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,880
me, the great Mesoamerican
scholar.

706
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,520
He's written a lot on the book.
He wrote a lot on the Book of

707
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,320
Enoch.
And he shows where there are

708
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,520
certain names and certain titles
that are used in the Book of

709
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,240
Moses that are also found in the
Book of Enoch.

710
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:36,560
But nobody knows that until much
later when these names are found

711
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,280
in the Dead Sea Scroll
fragments.

712
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,920
So I think there's a lot.
I I say all that to say that

713
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,960
there's a lot that seems to
point to Joseph Smith being on

714
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,480
point in his depiction of Enoch.
This doesn't seem to be

715
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,120
something that he created, but
it's something that gels very

716
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,520
well with the text that he would
not even have known about in his

717
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,840
time.
And see, that's, that's

718
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,120
impressive, right?
Like there's a certain point at

719
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:07,280
which, if let me back up, I
remember I took a a course once

720
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:13,040
that of American history that
really dealt with Jacksonian

721
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,720
America.
And you really can't talk about

722
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:18,280
Jacksonian America without
talking about the Mormons.

723
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,040
He just can't, right.
And, and one of the things that

724
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,520
that this professor said is he
says when, when you're dealing

725
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,160
with Joseph Smith, you got come
to one of two conclusions.

726
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,400
He was either exactly what he
said he was or he was the most

727
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,640
raw genius that America and
maybe even the world ever

728
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:41,320
produced.
Now I would add one other thing.

729
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,720
He's either exactly what he says
or he is one hell of a good

730
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:48,360
guesser, right?
Like stupid good guesser.

731
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,240
Because to to nail all this,
right?

732
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:55,080
And, and not just the Book of
Enoch, if we look at certain

733
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,760
certain things in in Egyptian
mythology, right, that, that

734
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,400
Joseph later reveals again,
Joseph's not going to have

735
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,000
access to this, right?
Yeah, Egyptology doesn't really

736
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,440
start till after the Napoleonic
Wars, right?

737
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,080
And and.
In the early 20th century,

738
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:12,640
honestly.
Yes, yes.

739
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,240
And so for, for, for this farm
boy to, to be able to have all

740
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:22,200
these bull's eyes, it, it, it
leaves one a little perplexed if

741
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,240
you, if you're not willing to
encounter the divine there.

742
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,440
I, I totally agree.
I totally agree.

743
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,080
I didn't realize, you know, with
the Egyptology stuff, I did not

744
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:36,560
realize that, you know, Joseph
had a Egyptian alphabet manual

745
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,320
that he was, that he was using
with the Book of Abraham.

746
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,040
You know, I was always taught
that, oh, he just did.

747
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,320
He just looked at the papyrus
and it was just, you know,

748
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,040
spontaneous.
But that's, that's actually not

749
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,320
the case.
There's a lot, there's a lot

750
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,200
more there than than just what
people make it out, you know,

751
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,680
make it out to be.
Right, right.

752
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,840
So why, why don't you dive into
a little bit of the presentation

753
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,280
that you gave here a little
while back and, and let's go

754
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,200
over that because I found that
to be extremely fascinating.

755
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,640
Yeah, yeah.
So I, in the, the article that I

756
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,160
wrote, I talked about, you know,
what's going on with Enoch and

757
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:20,320
the children of Cain.
And basically coming to the

758
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:26,080
conclusion that Enoch doesn't
preach to the children of Cain,

759
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,000
not because of any fault or any
flaw of themselves, but because

760
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,400
the children of Cain are kind of
despised, as the text says, as

761
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,320
Moses says, by the other people
in the land.

762
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,360
So because they are, because
they are despised, Enoch

763
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,880
preaching to them would have
been something that would've

764
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,920
been very, very difficult to do
and would have have put would

765
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:55,400
have caused a lot of kind of
contention and strife in a

766
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,960
situation that was already full
of contention and strife.

767
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:04,040
So one of the things I wanted to
emphasize was that the the

768
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,480
children of Canaan hadn't done
anything wrong.

769
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:09,920
There's the text never says that
they're under any type of curse,

770
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,800
but it just seems to be Enoch's
preference for preaching to

771
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,280
other people versus preaching
preaching to them.

772
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,600
And I basically say, you know,
the residue of the people that

773
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:28,120
God mentions has cursed don't
include the children of Cain or

774
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,040
the children of Canaan because
since Enoch has not preached to

775
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:37,480
them, they are not under the
same obligation to repent and to

776
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,720
follow God's laws as these other
people who Enoch has preached

777
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:43,360
to.
But they've still rejected his

778
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,240
rules.
They've rejected God's rules and

779
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:46,880
regulations, if that makes
sense.

780
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:48,800
Yeah.
Yep, that makes sense.

781
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,120
So.
So what was it in the text that

782
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,480
you were finding that lead you
to that conclusion?

783
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:59,800
Yeah, yeah.
So, well, first the the mention

784
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:04,560
of the residue people.
So in Moses Chapter 7, it says

785
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:09,120
that Enoch looked on the residue
of the people and they were a

786
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:14,520
mixture of all this of all the
seed of the son of of the sons

787
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,200
of Adam.
I should really have the I

788
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,680
should really have the text to
him right now.

789
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,160
But they were all they were all
the seeds of the son of Adam,

790
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,520
except for the seeds of Cain.
For the seed of king were black

791
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:29,320
and had no place among them.
But then earlier on it said, God

792
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,520
says Zion, I have blessed, but
the residue of the people I have

793
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,800
cursed.
So that residue of the people

794
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:41,000
include the races that Enoch has
preached to, but not but not the

795
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,320
the children of Canaan.
Because since Enoch has not

796
00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:48,840
reached the message of
repentance to them, they are not

797
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,680
obligated or they are not.
They do not come under the same

798
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,840
condemnation, the same judgment
as these other groups of people

799
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,280
whom Enoch has preached, to whom
Enoch has told to repent, and

800
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,880
they still refused to repent.
OK.

801
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,480
All right.
So is this something that we see

802
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,360
that we talked about the, the
residue of the people versus the

803
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:15,680
people that Enoch preached to?
Are we finding like this has to

804
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,840
do with like, you know, certain
tribes, so to speak, that that

805
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,760
maybe he's preaching to to
tribes with maybe a, a, a

806
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:28,560
familiar kind of relationship
with Or are we seeing that that

807
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,640
maybe this has more to do with
with region and geography?

808
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,160
That's that's a really good
question that I think that's a

809
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,160
very good question.
I think that it could possibly

810
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:47,320
be both region geography.
So the, the children of Cain

811
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,080
seem to be, you know, not only
despised by the other people,

812
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,640
but they're kind of, they're
kind of in their own region,

813
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,200
separated from other people.
And if they come into the

814
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,080
presence of others, then people
seem to seem to despise them,

815
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:02,720
but they kind of seem to be
separated.

816
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,800
So they're there.
There seems to be kind of a

817
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:14,160
regional, how do I put regional
distinction being made perhaps

818
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,800
over and against a tribal one,
But I think that that might be

819
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:17,800
something that's going on as
well.

820
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,400
Well, that's a really good
question.

821
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,280
I didn't dive as much into
detail about that when I was

822
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,520
writing the article.
No, no, no, it was good that

823
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,920
that article was still good, by
the way, I really, really

824
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,240
enjoyed it.
When when you, you take a step

825
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:36,080
back and you look, you look at
the, the entirety of the Book of

826
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:41,000
Enoch, What, what do you think
that book is trying to convey to

827
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,520
the reader?
I, I think there's several

828
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,400
things, but but what jumps out
at you?

829
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,920
What's as you look at it, What's
the one thing you you really

830
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:53,040
take away from?
Yeah, I, I feel towards the Book

831
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,840
of Enoch similar to how I feel
towards the Book of Job, which

832
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,400
is you have, or the Book of Toba
in the Apocrypha, which is where

833
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,680
you have a righteous person who
is being persecuted but

834
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,000
eventually rises above that
persecution.

835
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,520
And I think that Enoch was
composed, one of the reasons it

836
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,240
was composed and one of the
reasons I think it was very

837
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:15,240
popular with an early
Christianity, Apostolic

838
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:19,800
Christianity, and even a kind of
Second Temple Judaism with the

839
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:25,320
Dead Sea sect is, is this
message of in not only

840
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:32,480
endurance, but victory in the
face of, in the aftermath of

841
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,440
persecution.
And I, I think that's a very,

842
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,920
very powerful message.
I think that, you know, you, you

843
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,400
see that not just in the book of
Enoch, but in a lot of, in a lot

844
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,280
of texts, both ancient and
modern, the original Star Wars,

845
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,040
which comes to mind.
Episode 4 has a, has a similar

846
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,920
theme.
So after Luke Skywalker goes,

847
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,120
goes through all this stuff, you
know, his, his aunt and uncle

848
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,400
get burned to a crisp, he loses
Obi Wan, he loses his best

849
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,800
friend, big star fighter.
But at the end, but at the end

850
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,200
he's victorious.
He blows up the Death Star and

851
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,960
and he's victorious.
I think that idea of being being

852
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,680
persecuted by evil, of being
oppressed by evil, but rising

853
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,120
above that oppression, I think
for myself that is the central

854
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,320
theme of the Book of Enoch.
You know, and that should

855
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,560
really, no matter which, no
matter which branch of the

856
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,440
restoration you're in, there's
plenty of persecution go to go

857
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,520
away, right?
I mean, look, because it

858
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,680
continues all the way out.
You know, it starts very early

859
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,480
on in Palmyra, goes to Kirtland
or Pennsylvania, excuse me, then

860
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,800
to Kirtland, then goes to
Missouri, Missouri.

861
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:43,200
Missouri's the worst, yes.
Missouri's the worst, then goes

862
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:47,440
to Nauvoo, and when they leave
the United States, it's still

863
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,280
not enough, right?
Like Brigham's got to say, yeah,

864
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,320
we got a, we got bury the temple
foundations now, right?

865
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,040
And, and so no matter what
branch of the restoration you're

866
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,960
in, you should be able to
resonate a little bit with this,

867
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:05,280
this idea of, of persecution,
right?

868
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:10,840
Because it, it, it is part and
parcel to the, to the Mormon

869
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,320
narrative.
It, it just is.

870
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,600
Absolutely.
And and that's something we

871
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,560
should should all resonate with,
right.

872
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,280
But I, I think that's the
beautiful message is that.

873
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,480
I, I think, I think that's also
what I think for, if I may speak

874
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,560
for, for the prophet, rest in
heaven.

875
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,520
I think that's what drew him to
the book of Enoch as well.

876
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,760
And again, like we talked about
before, seeing your own

877
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,160
experiences and the experience
of the of the ancient, I think

878
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,320
Joseph Smith saw his own
prophetic calling in a manner

879
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,200
similar to Enoch.
And I know that in some editions

880
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,040
of the Doctrine and Covenants,
he even calls himself that the

881
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,080
name that he uses for himself is
Enoch.

882
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:50,600
So, so yeah, I, I think, I think
the, the, the Patriarch Enoch

883
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,080
resonated very strongly with the
Prophet Joseph Smith.

884
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,240
Well, and and their missions are
are very similar in some ways,

885
00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:03,120
right?
I mean, I went back once and,

886
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:04,680
and look, I could be wrong on
this.

887
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:07,840
I don't think I am.
I mean, it's possible

888
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:09,920
something's floating out there I
haven't seen yet.

889
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,720
But I went back through and I
was like, OK, how many just

890
00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:16,120
church buildings did Joseph
Smith build, right?

891
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,160
Like chapels?
Well, you can kind of make a

892
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,920
case for Kirtland, right?
Because there was a grand

893
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:26,320
assembly hall in Kirtland in,
in, in that temple.

894
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:31,480
But outside of that, we don't
have any record that I can

895
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,800
certainly find where Joseph is
in the business of building,

896
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,640
quote, churches, right, as we
think meeting houses, right?

897
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,840
His view is a little more
expansive than that, right?

898
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,800
He's more interested in
community cities and temples.

899
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,800
Yeah, yeah, Ming habits don't
really come into play until

900
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,200
after, like after Mormonism gets
settled.

901
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:58,440
Right, right.
And so this this idea that that

902
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:03,440
that Joseph, much like Enoch, is
more interested in whole

903
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:05,520
societies.
Yes, yes.

904
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,080
And lastly, I think he saw
Kirtland and especially that VU

905
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,400
as kind of, you know, the RE,
you know, the revitalization of

906
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,720
the city of Enoch.
I think that ties into, you

907
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:18,400
know, going back to Joseph Smith
translation, when you look at

908
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:23,240
Genesis 9, when God talks to
Noah, God says when men keep my

909
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:26,040
commandments, Zion will again
come down from heaven.

910
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:27,960
The General Assembly of the
first born.

911
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,080
I think that Joseph saw, like
you said, I think he hit the

912
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:36,920
nail on the head, Kirtland and I
vu as this re this, this city of

913
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,160
Zion coming back down to earth
in this General Assembly.

914
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,840
Yep, absolutely.
And, and I mean, I know it's not

915
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,240
your faith tradition, but that
continues on even with Brigham,

916
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:49,640
right?
As, as they get out, get out to,

917
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:55,680
to, to the Utah Territory.
There's this idea that that

918
00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:00,720
they're leaving, leaving behind
Babylon, so to speak, And

919
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:02,760
they're going to do something
different, right?

920
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,200
This idea of being set apart to
be something different.

921
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:12,080
And and that's keeping with what
Joseph Smith taught with with

922
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,320
Kirtland and Nauvoo and Far
West.

923
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,400
He had it in mind for Far West
as well, this idea of coming out

924
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,480
of the world into a more holy
society.

925
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,760
I love one of my favorite hymns
is Mormon hymns is the Spirit of

926
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:27,840
God.
Yeah.

927
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:30,960
And there's that line there.
I think it's in the spirit of

928
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,360
God.
We'll find a place that God for

929
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,440
us prepared, prepared far away
in the West of the place that

930
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,680
God has prepared for us far away
in the West.

931
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,120
And I think that for me, that
ties directly into the city of

932
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,640
Zion.
Yeah, I I think so too.

933
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,960
And, and to be quite honest with
you here, Adam, I think it's

934
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,600
something that we as Mormons,
we've got to get back to.

935
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:55,240
Yeah, I absolutely.
Absolutely.

936
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:59,360
I, I think, I think we've, we've
for far too long started looking

937
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:07,120
at our faith traditions as
simply either kind of a quasi

938
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:11,680
club or and this is across the
spectrum, right.

939
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,520
This isn't just LDS, this just
isn't fundamentalist.

940
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,640
This isn't any other rest, just
rest duration movement.

941
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,000
We all do this right?
We all get kind of complacent

942
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,640
and then it gets turned into a
club or a social activity,

943
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,320
right?
And we?

944
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,360
Include some people and we
exclude others from our from the

945
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:31,880
social club, yes.
Right.

946
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,200
And, and the message here that I
see in Enoch, as well as the,

947
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:40,080
the message of the Restoration
as taught by Joseph and those

948
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,440
early Mormon leaders are ones in
which it's like, no, we're going

949
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,720
to leave the world behind and
we're going to set up something

950
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:50,240
different.
And it's going to be a holier

951
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:54,760
existence, so to speak.
What what are some of the

952
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:59,240
challenges that that the common
reader will encounter and, and

953
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:02,680
let's get specific, the common
Mormon reader will encounter

954
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:04,600
when they start diving into the
Book of Enoch?

955
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,080
Yeah, one of the things I think
most notably is that it's not

956
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,400
officially a part of our
scriptures.

957
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,800
And I think that this would,
this would be the same problem

958
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,560
with, you know, with process or
Catholic Christianity.

959
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:25,040
So it's, it's kind of a, it's
kind of an outlier text that

960
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,000
people don't really know much
about South Mormons know what

961
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:30,760
we, I mean, of course we all
know about the Pearl, the great

962
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,160
prize, you know, about the
Joseph Smith translation.

963
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,640
But the book of Enoch we're less
familiar with just because in

964
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,680
the West, the book of Enoch
wasn't popular until, you know,

965
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,280
really this this past the 19th
and 20th century.

966
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:49,280
So I think that that might, that
might be a challenge and I think

967
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,280
that, you know, certain going to
certain texts like Joseph

968
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,440
Smith's revelation on the
Apocrypha and the Doctrine

969
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:59,840
Covenants might be helpful.
There's a wonderful, I am a

970
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:04,440
member of Deseret Books, so I
get, I get their publications

971
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,520
all the time.
And there's a wonderful audio

972
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:11,240
book called, I think the
Apocrypha for Mormons or for

973
00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:14,280
Latter Day Saints, Understanding
the Apocrypha for Latter Day

974
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,400
Saints.
And I think that one of the

975
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,520
books that's mentioned there is
the Book of Enoch, and the

976
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:21,840
person gives a great
introduction to the Book of

977
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:26,680
Enoch for Mormons.
I think another thing that might

978
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,400
hold up some people is that,
like I said, the Book of Enoch,

979
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:32,720
first Enoch is a really kind of
choppy text.

980
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:34,800
It has some poetry, it has some
prose.

981
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:39,160
It's kind of all over the place
and you have to be patient with

982
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,560
it because it could be kind of
frustrating in that regard.

983
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,960
We're used to either, you know,
things being straightforward.

984
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,560
So either the Book of Mormon,
which for the most part is is

985
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,600
prose.
There is some poetry when Nephi,

986
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,000
when Nephi, you know, praises
God and stuff like that.

987
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:52,840
But for the most part it's a
narrative.

988
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,560
Or we know we have the Psalms,
which is just poetry.

989
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,320
The Book of Enoch is kind of a
hodgepodge of all these

990
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,320
different genres.
So that might be something

991
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:05,960
that's kind of a challenge.
So I would say for, for Mormons

992
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,560
encountering it, to be patient
with it.

993
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,640
And there's a lot of kind of
Angel angelology, if I can use

994
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,480
that term, descriptions of the
different types of angels in the

995
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,920
heavenly realms and stuff.
And you know, from, for me, I, I

996
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:23,440
really like that stuff.
I think that stuff is really

997
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,840
cool, but it could be, it could
be kind of tedious for, you

998
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,520
know, your reader who hasn't
been exposed to this stuff

999
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,200
before.
So maybe reading a book on kind

1000
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,880
of apocalyptic scripture,
apocalyptic literature would be

1001
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,000
helpful as well.
I'll put you in touch with a guy

1002
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,080
because because you're into the
Apocrypha.

1003
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,040
It's a guy I've had on the
podcast several, several times.

1004
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,760
His name's Ken Peterson, so
shout out to Ken.

1005
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,160
He wrote a book called Mormonism
in the Apocrypha where he goes.

1006
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,840
It's an exhaustive work.
I mean, he really went for it.

1007
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,360
And he just lists all the
teachings in the Apocrypha that

1008
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,720
are kind of bull's eyes with
Mormonism, and it's just

1009
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:01,760
astounding.
I'll I'll hook you up with him.

1010
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:03,440
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to read
that.

1011
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,640
He's a great guy.
I think you'd really, I think

1012
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:08,080
you'd, you'd really resonate
with him.

1013
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,200
Super smart, intelligent.
Yeah.

1014
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,200
What about certain teachings
within the Book of Enoch that

1015
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,000
might challenge Mormons?
Right.

1016
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,360
Because because I, I want to say
this, you're, you're not going

1017
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,920
to read the Book of Enoch and be
like, oh, this totally sounds

1018
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,960
like Joseph Smith.
Because that's not it right Now

1019
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,360
you can look at Moses 6-7 and
eight and see some very good

1020
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,760
similarities there, some very
good bull's eyes, right?

1021
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:40,040
But this is not a restoration
list text.

1022
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,520
Let's put it like that.
So with within the text of Enoch

1023
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,080
itself, are there going to be
any teachings that might throw

1024
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:51,200
Mormons for a loop?
I think the most shocking thing

1025
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:59,080
would be will be Noah being half
half human, half Benet Elohim or

1026
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:03,120
son of God or watchers, however
you want to categorize these

1027
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,920
beings.
That's that was that was always

1028
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:07,920
very shocking for me when I read
when I read it.

1029
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,280
So and I know that you know,
Noah, I mean he's held in

1030
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,120
greatest team.
He's in Moses, chapter 8 in the

1031
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:16,960
Pearl of Great Price.
He's considered the Angel

1032
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,240
Gabriel.
So he's held in very.

1033
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:21,680
So Noah is held in very high
esteem.

1034
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,840
Did I say Moses or Noah?
I said Noah, right?

1035
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:24,800
You said Noah.
Yep.

1036
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,240
I said Noah, OK, so Noah is held
in very high esteem.

1037
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,920
So that he is a descendant of
the Binet Elohim of the sons of

1038
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,480
God might be kind of might be
kind of shocking.

1039
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,440
I honestly think, Dave, I think
there's a lot that's going to

1040
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:43,440
resonate with, with Mormon
readers, especially with kind of

1041
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:48,080
the understanding of angels and
exalted, the exalted righteous.

1042
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,280
I think that that, you know,
that ties in very well with the

1043
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,240
with the, with the kind of the
Mormon concepts of, of

1044
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,400
exaltation.
So I think that at the end of

1045
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:02,440
the day, if you excuse me, if
you weigh the Book of Enoch in

1046
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:03,960
the balance, there's going to be
more stuff.

1047
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:07,280
I think it's going to resonate
with Mormons then that they will

1048
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,440
find offensive.
But you're absolutely right.

1049
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,760
This is not a restorationist
text.

1050
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,600
This is not a restorationist
text and all, but I do think

1051
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:16,960
that there are parallels that
Mormons will appreciate.

1052
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:22,880
Perfect.
And then do we have any ideas at

1053
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,240
all?
Because I'm a, I'm a guy who

1054
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,120
believes context matters a lot,
right?

1055
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,440
We can see the certain times
even in the savior's teachings,

1056
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,240
like the one, the one that
always got me, that it, it took

1057
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,680
me years to wrap my head around
and I didn't get my head fully

1058
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:44,840
wrapped around it until I, I
began to understand the, the,

1059
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,880
the kind of socio political
climate in which the savior is

1060
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,080
preaching.
The, the one where he says, if

1061
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:55,560
someone asks you to carry his,
his pack, carry it for him.

1062
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,800
Not just one mile, but two,
right.

1063
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:02,120
That's actually really
fascinating when you get to know

1064
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:05,040
the, the political climate
'cause that has to do with Roman

1065
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:07,280
soldiers.
So Rome had a law that said

1066
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:13,120
basically they could demand any
citizen carry their pack for up

1067
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,400
to a mile.
Now here's the interesting part.

1068
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,920
If it was more than a mile, the
Roman soldier would get in

1069
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,080
trouble and so would his
commanding officer because they,

1070
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:28,920
they, they didn't want, Rome
itself, didn't want rebellion,

1071
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,200
right?
And so they, they tried to be

1072
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,200
like, OK, you can oppress them a
little bit, but you can't

1073
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,760
oppress them too much, right?
And so it becomes very

1074
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,560
interesting when you see maybe
what the savior is saying.

1075
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,560
They're like, yeah, if they tell
you carry that thing, carry it 2

1076
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,000
miles, yeah, you know, and that
sort.

1077
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,720
Of thing push back.
It's more a push back than.

1078
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,760
Exactly right.
And and it puts, it puts the

1079
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:51,880
scripture into a, into a
different light.

1080
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:59,200
So now with that, do we have any
sort of historical context, you

1081
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:03,040
know, really archaeologically
Speaking, of Enoch's time

1082
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:06,600
period?
Yeah, not of Enoch per

1083
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:11,080
Southeast.
I can say more about the

1084
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,720
communities for which the Book
of Enoch was popular.

1085
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,040
I think that the reason that you
have the Book of Enoch at with

1086
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:21,080
the Dead Sea or Quran community
is that they see themselves as

1087
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,320
the children of light versus the
wicked children of darkness.

1088
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,880
So I think that they equate the
children of darkness with the

1089
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:32,840
Roman Empire, with the
oppression that they're feeling,

1090
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,760
that they're feeling from Rome.
OK, so I think that that's why

1091
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,640
it's popular saying with kind of
how why it's popular for

1092
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:42,920
Christians.
So this they they see themselves

1093
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,680
as kind of the righteous and
their enemies, the Roman Empire,

1094
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:51,520
the Jewish authorities, those
are those are they are those are

1095
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:53,680
their their enemies.
So I think that they're seeing

1096
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:59,080
their own situation and their
struggle within kind of the, the

1097
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,760
what's the word?
I'm looking for the context of

1098
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:07,080
Enoch's struggles as described
in the Book of Enoch.

1099
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:13,920
But the community of Enoch, you
know, I don't think we, we can

1100
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:17,600
know too much about them outside
of, you know, the primeval

1101
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,880
history itself.
And you know what was going on

1102
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,800
with the sons of God, the doors
of men, and just the corruption

1103
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,600
that was going on in the world
at that time.

1104
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:29,680
OK, all right.
No, that answers.

1105
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:34,080
It is fascinating, though, that
even even the writers in the New

1106
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,600
Testament are finding that they
can identify with this book.

1107
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:38,880
Right.
Yes.

1108
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,440
And and that to me is also
fascinating, right?

1109
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:50,760
I'm not a guy who believes that.
Certainly we change and we make

1110
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:55,880
advancements in society, but
really we we struggle against

1111
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:59,080
the same things, right?
Nothing really changes here.

1112
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:01,600
And it is fascinating to see
that that some of the same

1113
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:04,280
things we struggle with were
some of the same things that

1114
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,080
that early New Testament writers
were.

1115
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,160
Struggling with yes.
Let me ask you this question.

1116
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:12,000
Do we know why the Book of Enoch
falls out of favor?

1117
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,800
Right, Because as we just said,
this is a book that is obviously

1118
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:20,080
popular during, during, you
know, the, the Old Testament

1119
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,640
period.
It's obviously popular in the

1120
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:26,240
New Testament period.
We have, like you were saying,

1121
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,120
mentions of it in the in the New
Testament.

1122
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,360
What happens?
Why does it fall out of favor?

1123
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,560
I would say the culprit, Dave is
really the Council of Nicaea.

1124
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:41,640
So when it makes that decision
to make an official Canon,

1125
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:46,040
especially of the New Testament
works, yeah, I think it's making

1126
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:49,240
a deliberate decision to push
the Book of Enoch aside.

1127
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,520
And I think one of the reasons
for that, going back to this

1128
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:56,080
question of historical context
that you raised, is that, you

1129
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:59,800
know, by the time of the Council
of Nicaea, and I'll, I'm just

1130
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:01,600
biased here.
I hate the Council of Nicaea.

1131
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:05,480
So I think by the time of the
Council of Nicaea, you know,

1132
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:09,640
Rome is completely merged with
Christianity.

1133
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:14,800
So you don't want anything, any
text that is going to possibly

1134
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:19,000
suggest that Rome is acquainted
with the Children of Darkness.

1135
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,800
So I think that there's a
deliberate effort to push the

1136
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:29,440
Book of Enoch out of the Canon
and in and one of the evidences

1137
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,840
I would say for that is that
after this time, after the

1138
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,680
Council of Nicaea, you don't
really get quotations from the

1139
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,360
Book of Enoch from any of the
post Nicene Fathers.

1140
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:42,080
So I think that, you know, they
don't.

1141
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:46,320
I think this book is in some
ways, and I'll use this, I use

1142
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:50,160
this word sparingly.
I think this book is dangerous

1143
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:54,960
for the post Nicene Church
because it's so tied to the

1144
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:59,880
Roman Empire.
Interesting, you know, and again

1145
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,400
with what I just said nothing
being new.

1146
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:09,320
I know that one of the big push
when when during oh kind of

1147
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:13,000
coming out of the Enlightenment,
so to speak, or let me phrase

1148
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,760
that coming about the time we
start discovering the new world,

1149
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,560
that sort of thing.
The Geneva Bible isn't really

1150
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:25,040
favored by a lot of monarchs of
the time because the Geneva

1151
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:29,760
Bible is hard on kings, right?
I mean, it is not pleasant to

1152
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:32,520
kings and so it.
I love the Geneva Bible.

1153
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:34,480
I actually have a copy of it
downstairs in my basement.

1154
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:38,600
Dude, that Bible is, I don't
know if this is a good way to

1155
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,320
describe it, but there's times
I've read the Geneva Bible and

1156
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:45,000
that thing's straight metal.
I mean, that thing is, is, is

1157
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:50,640
rock and hard and, and it it
takes to task kings and tyrants

1158
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:53,720
pretty hard.
So obviously if you're a a

1159
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:58,040
monarch of any kind who believes
in the divine right of kings,

1160
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:00,680
that sort of thing, the last
thing you want is a Bible

1161
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:02,640
floating out there that's going
to challenge your authority.

1162
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:07,240
So it's not out of the realm of
of reason of being reasonable

1163
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:12,040
that that if you're Rome, you
certainly don't want a book that

1164
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:15,920
that has dispersion on on
yourself.

1165
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:22,640
With that said, why does it keep
keep in favor with like the

1166
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:24,800
Ethiopian church?
Is it just that that they're

1167
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:29,160
kind of isolated?
In that case, it's geography.

1168
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:31,600
I think that they're because
they're isolated, they don't

1169
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:35,120
have any connection to the
Western church, whether Latin or

1170
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,160
Greek speaking Western or the
Greek speaking church.

1171
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:41,320
So they're just kind of doing
their own thing.

1172
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:43,960
And their Canon is not just
with, I mean, they have a bunch

1173
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:46,320
of books that, you know, we
don't even have in our Canon,

1174
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:50,320
1st and 2nd Ezra's for example,
and then some like books that

1175
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,360
are solely within the Ethiopian
Bible.

1176
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:56,800
So they're, they're just doing
their own thing.

1177
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:00,400
But because they're so isolated,
that allows the Book of Enoch to

1178
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:02,200
to persist and endure in that
tradition.

1179
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:06,360
What about the Greek text?
I mean, somebody translated that

1180
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,280
thing into Greek, right?
Yeah, yeah.

1181
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,000
And I mean it does.
I mean, scribes and I, it does

1182
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:16,240
get, it does get preserved, but
nobody's really doing anything

1183
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:17,760
with it.
I mean, they're not even writing

1184
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:23,279
commentaries on this thing into,
you know, the Middle Ages and

1185
01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:26,160
into the Enlightenment.
Nobody is really talking about

1186
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:30,160
this book.
And so it, it doesn't become

1187
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:33,080
popular again until close to our
into the modern era.

1188
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:36,279
OK.
Now, for someone who wants to

1189
01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:39,439
pick up a copy of the Book of
Enoch, right, they listen to

1190
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,479
this podcast and they're like,
oh, I got to scope this out.

1191
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:44,520
I would imagine that there's
different versions of that thing

1192
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:46,600
floating out there now, right?
Yes, yes.

1193
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:51,560
So there's a couple of versions.
There's a book called The Lost

1194
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,080
Books of Adam and Eve, and that
has a copy that has a

1195
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:56,319
translation of the Slavonic Book
of Enoch.

1196
01:08:56,319 --> 01:08:59,279
That was the very first version
of the Book of Enoch that I

1197
01:08:59,279 --> 01:09:02,560
read.
There's also the Hermeneia

1198
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:05,960
translation of the Book of Enoch
done I believe by John Collins.

1199
01:09:06,359 --> 01:09:09,240
It's called First Enoch.
That is a modern translation

1200
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:13,319
that was done in the past, like
15 years or so, which is modern

1201
01:09:13,319 --> 01:09:16,080
for biblical studies.
Highly recommended.

1202
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:18,880
Beautiful English translation.
Really, really easy to read.

1203
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:24,000
And then there is another
edition by Joseph Lumpkin, the

1204
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,520
Book of Enoch that you can get
on Amazon.

1205
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,160
It's probably the most popular
version of the Book of of Enoch.

1206
01:09:29,399 --> 01:09:32,640
It's just you just type in the
Book of Enoch by Lumpkin and

1207
01:09:33,359 --> 01:09:35,319
that is the addition.
A lot of people have that,

1208
01:09:35,319 --> 01:09:37,200
including myself.
OK.

1209
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:40,960
And and so you'd recommend those
ones more than than any?

1210
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:43,080
Other.
Yeah, especially the Hermeneo 1.

1211
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:48,960
There's also, there is a book,
the Ethiopian Apocrypha, and

1212
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,800
that also contains the Ethiopian
translation of the Book of

1213
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:57,440
Enoch, but very, very choppy and
very, very, yeah, yeah.

1214
01:09:57,920 --> 01:09:59,360
I don't.
And I've talked to other people

1215
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,600
about this fact.
There's a guy I talked to every

1216
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:05,240
couple of weeks.
We don't really like the the

1217
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:10,600
Ethiopian Apocrypha book, the
English, the English translation

1218
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:13,040
because it's just it's very
choppy.

1219
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:17,600
So with with the one that you
really recommend, do you

1220
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:20,840
recommend it just for the ease
of reading or is there other

1221
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,160
stuff in there that maybe isn't
in the?

1222
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:24,560
Excellent question.
Excellent question.

1223
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,000
So the ease of reading and also
it tries to combine the

1224
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,040
different manuscripts.
So it doesn't just give you the

1225
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:32,800
Greek, but it'll also give you
the variance in Hebrew, Aramaic

1226
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:34,480
and Ethiopic.
OK.

1227
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:37,880
All right.
Would there be like accounts

1228
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,640
that are in one that's not in
the other that you find that are

1229
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:46,000
helpful?
The the Lumpkin book of Enoch is

1230
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:50,280
very helpful because it will
give places in where it's where

1231
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:52,240
it appears to quote the New
Testament.

1232
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:54,720
I mean, excuse me, where the New
Testament seems to have

1233
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:58,880
parallels with it.
So if there is a verse in the

1234
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:02,800
book of Enoch, the Lumpkin
version will have like a example

1235
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,920
of quotation from the book of
Jude that's similar to it, a

1236
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:08,000
quotation from the book of
Matthew that's similar to it.

1237
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:10,520
So for Christian readers, I
think that's a really kind of

1238
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:12,800
good.
That edition is a good segue for

1239
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,440
getting him into the Book of
Enoch and making it feel less

1240
01:11:15,480 --> 01:11:18,240
hard.
Perfect, perfect.

1241
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:23,760
And then finally, as, as we come
to the to, to this point here,

1242
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:28,000
is there anything that you would
caution people about when they

1243
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:29,760
go to read the Book of Enoch,
right?

1244
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,080
Like, is there anything there
that's going to take them down a

1245
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:36,520
weird rabbit hole or anything
like that that they need to be

1246
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:38,960
concerned about?
That, that's a great question,

1247
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,240
Dave.
I've known so many people who

1248
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:44,760
get caught up in kind of the
star mysticism and the Angel,

1249
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,520
you know, the Merkava, the
throne mysticism and stuff.

1250
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:55,840
I would say, you know, what's
the word I'm looking for, be

1251
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:58,760
thrifty, OK, with that type of
stuff.

1252
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:03,160
Don't, don't go down the rabbit
hole in it.

1253
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:05,000
Just appreciate it for what it
is.

1254
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:10,640
It's a mystical vision.
Don't try to use it to, you

1255
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:14,560
know, have your own mystical
vision of the divine throne.

1256
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,280
Just, you know, appreciate it
for what it is because a lot of

1257
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:19,000
people really, really get into
that stuff.

1258
01:12:19,440 --> 01:12:21,840
Gotcha.
Gotcha, dude.

1259
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:24,000
Good, Good stuff.
I appreciate it.

1260
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:27,560
This is great.
I love, I love talking about

1261
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:28,760
this stuff.
I do.

1262
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:30,320
Me too.
I could do it all day long.

1263
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:32,760
Is there anything that you want
to throw in there that we didn't

1264
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:38,680
cover?
I'm trying to think there's I

1265
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:41,240
would, I would say that, you
know, if you, if you like the

1266
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:45,360
book of Enoch, please read the
rest of the Apocrypha,

1267
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:50,720
especially second Ezra's, the
Testament of the Patriarchs,

1268
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:53,960
stuff like that, because they're
very similar to Enoch.

1269
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:56,960
And I think that, you know,
looking at the relation between

1270
01:12:56,960 --> 01:13:00,000
Enoch and the Restoration
scriptures, the Mormon

1271
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:03,160
scriptures, you'll see a lot of
parallels which I think will

1272
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:05,920
will serve to strengthen your
faith, especially if you're from

1273
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:09,160
Latter Day St. tradition.
Sorry, I keep coming up with

1274
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:12,600
questions here as I'm sitting
here thinking and and listening.

1275
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:16,000
Do we find any reference of a
savior kind of figure within the

1276
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:18,040
Book of Enoch?
Yes, absolutely.

1277
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:23,040
So you have the Son of Man who
is seems to be so this isn't

1278
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:25,760
what Ezekiel talks about when he
says Son of man.

1279
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:27,920
That's clearly, that's clear.
Your reference to himself as a

1280
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:30,480
human being.
This son of man seems to be more

1281
01:13:30,480 --> 01:13:33,880
in line with what Jesus talks
about the Son of man, this

1282
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:38,800
apocalyptic divine figure that
Jesus even appears to identify

1283
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,120
himself as.
So yes, you have the Son of Man

1284
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:46,160
who's this kind of messianic
figure who intercedes for the

1285
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:49,840
righteous who are being
persecuted by the wicked, and a

1286
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:51,800
very, very important figure in
the Book of Enoch.

1287
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:54,840
OK, all right, good.
All right.

1288
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:57,200
And where can they find those,
those versions that you were

1289
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:00,240
talking about, those those
versions of of the Book of

1290
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:01,800
Enoch?
So type in.

1291
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:09,840
If you go on Amazon, type in
First Enoch Hermenea HERMENIA,

1292
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:16,400
type that in that should pop up,
type in Book of Enoch Lumpkin

1293
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:20,040
that that additional pop up, and
then type in the Ethiopian

1294
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:21,920
Apocrypha.
And I think they're Kindle and

1295
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:23,800
paperback versions for both of
those.

1296
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:27,320
Perfect.
And if anyone wants to find your

1297
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:30,960
work, where do they find it?
Yes, so I have an Instagram

1298
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:37,080
page, Adam the Giant Guy 2019.
I post about all of my articles

1299
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:39,520
and books there.
I also have an Amazon author

1300
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:41,120
page.
If you just type in Adam Stokes

1301
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,000
it should pop up.
Perfect.

1302
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:45,680
Well dude, this was good stuff.
I appreciate it.

1303
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:49,480
Yes, yes, I, like I said, I, I,
I, I love talking about this

1304
01:14:49,480 --> 01:14:51,720
stuff.
I, I, I love, I love the

1305
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:53,800
Apocrypha.
I love my, my can of scripture.

1306
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:55,680
I have an official can of
scripture, which of course is

1307
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:57,960
the Bible, Book of Mormon, and
the word of the Lord.

1308
01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:00,400
But my unofficial can of
scripture is is much much

1309
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:02,040
bigger.
That's awesome.

1310
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:04,440
That's awesome.
Well dude, let's do this again.

1311
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:06,320
I would love to do this.
Yes, yes.

1312
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:09,520
All right, good deal.
I'm hang out for a few minutes.

1313
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:11,120
Everyone else will see you next
time

1314
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:44,520
you're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.