Episode #134: Joseph W. Musser W/ Cristina Rosetti, PhD

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About a year ago, I released two
episodes on Joseph W Muster with

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Michael Ness.
Recently, Christina Rossetti

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released her highly anticipated
new book about Joseph Muster.

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Now, if you know anything at all
about Christina, you're well

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aware of her scholarship and how
she approaches the study of

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Mormon fundamentalism.
She's always done a very good

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job of portraying us fairly
well.

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Today she joins me again on the
podcast as we talk about her new

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book which covers Muster's
ministry, his personal life, his

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relationships with the Woollies,
John Y Barlow, and even end up

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touching on the organization of
the new council with Ruin

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Allred.
From time to time in our

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conversation, you will get a
peek inside to the man he really

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was and just how much he both
loved and sacrificed for the

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original teachings of the
restored gospel.

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After listening to this
conversation and reading the

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book, I think you'll find that
your admiration and appreciation

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for Muster will only deepen.
And that's next on this episode

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of the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
So a few weeks back, I told you

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about a new online merch store I
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that out.
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In the coming weeks, more
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notes and get yours today.
The

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you're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Christina, how's it going?
Hi good.

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How are?
You good.

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Thanks for coming back on of.
Course.

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You've been busy.
That book took a while to get

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through peer review, didn't it?
It did.

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When, When you and I first did
our episode two years ago, that

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was like on the way, right?
And I thought it was like right

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around the corner and it's my
fault because I don't understand

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peer review and all the all
these other things.

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So I was like, I kept waiting.
I kept waiting, I kept waiting.

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And then I saw it got released.
So congratulations.

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I mean, you and I both.
We're waiting.

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Yeah.
Peer review.

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I mean, it's here.
There it is.

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There it is.
There it is.

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Little Cutie Yeah, it peer
review was a journey, which I

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can definitely get into.
But I mean, the long, the bulk

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of it, one of my reviewers was
great.

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So it's 22 reviewers reviewed
it.

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It's blind, so I don't know who
they are.

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They don't.
I mean, everyone knew that I was

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writing this book at that point.
Who else was writing a book on

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Joseph Musser?
So two people reviewed it.

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One of them loved it.
One of them was like this is

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great, 2nd reviewer comes in hot
and is like she's a bad writer.

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I mean, but not just that.
The title was not this.

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Initially.
This book was supposed to be

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called Joseph White Musser, a
Mormon prophet.

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Now can you guess how that went
over?

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I'm only going to guess where
this woman went to church.

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Well, the, I think the Revere
was a guy, I don't know, but I

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was told that I needed to change
the name.

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It was a long review that
centered on the name and it said

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prophet is only reserved for the
president of the Church of Jesus

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Christ of Latter Day Saints and
it's inappropriate and no one

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would call him a prophet.
And I was like, well, that's not

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true.
People definitely do call him a

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prophet.
Anyway, I had to change the

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title.
I ended up getting around today.

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I dedicated it to all the
Mormons who call him a prophet.

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So I did.
I did kind of weasel that in.

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But it did finally get through
peer review, which I didn't have

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to change much.
I did have to change.

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I did have to cave and change
the title.

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Yeah, it's done and it's out,
and I'm really grateful.

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I mean, people have read it.
I mean, I wrote it mostly for

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the community, mostly for
fundamentalists who let me in

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their homes and like, let me
hang out and like be nosy about

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their lives because really, what
was I for the last 10 years

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other than just like a really
nosy person?

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And so I'm really, I mean, I
wrote it for them.

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And so I'm really grateful that
so many fundamentalists have

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bought it and have read it and
showed up to the book launch at

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Benchmark Books.
And so, but it's done.

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It's out in the world.
Joseph Messer in order to do

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this, Brian Buchanan and I at
Benchmark Books, we spent years

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retranscribing all of his
Diaries and every single letter

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between him and John my Barlow,
every single letter between him

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and Heber J Grant, all the
letters between him and J Golden

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Kimball.
And so we do have a contract

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that Signature Books is
publishing all of his Diaries.

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They're annotated, they're
beautiful, an annotated set of a

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full set of multi volume Diaries
and letters from Musser, which

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is great because they are in the
LDS Church archive.

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They are restricted.
You can't like go see the

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originals.
So we transcribed everything.

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They will be coming out.
It is called St.

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'cause he was his name when he
was, when his baby blessing

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happened, his dad blessed him
with the name St.

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And so it's called St. the Life
and Correspondence of Joseph

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White Musser.
And so Signature Books is going

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to be publishing it and it
should be out probably next

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year.
Nice, nice.

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So when, when, when you sit down
to to think about OK, I, I want

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to write a piece on, on Mormon
fundamentalism.

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Why muster?
Why not woolly?

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Why not Barlow?
Why muster?

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Great.
Yeah, I mean, great question.

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So I mean, with Woolly, Woolly
never kept a diary.

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So there's that.
And I mean, that's an easy

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answer is Woolly didn't keep a
diary.

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I mean, there's three reasons
for Woolly.

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He didn't keep a diary.
Everything Woolly said was

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written down by Musser with
School of the Prophets book

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remembrances.
All of that is in Musser's

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handwriting, and this is going
to be a little bit of a spicy

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take.
Woolly told some stories.

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Woolly said some things.
And.

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It's very.
Hard to know if they're true.

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And so as much as he is kind of
like, you know, he's the

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originator of the story, of the
narrative of fundamentalism,

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it's hard to keep the story with
him.

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And so for all those reasons.
We couldn't.

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It didn't make sense, but also
because Muster is the one that

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wrote it.
John Rye Barlow, we don't have

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his Diaries.
We have Zitting's Diaries.

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But the reality is that when we
think of who is the early

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promulgator of Mormon
fundamentalism, I mean, Muster

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developed pamphlets, Muster
wrote Truth magazine.

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Muster did.
I mean, he's what gets it off

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the he's the visionary for like
when I think of a lot of the

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major doctrines of Mormon
fundamentalism, even even

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something as simple as parsing
out how do we theologically make

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sense of the priesthood and the
church being separate things.

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It was him.
It was him who did it.

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The idea that Joseph Smith is
the Holy Ghost, certainly Woolly

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talked about that.
But like Musser talked about

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that, like we have testimonies
of him saying, I testify of this

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and explaining it and making
sense of it and tying it

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together.
And I mean his pamphlets

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circulated in Sunday school
meetings.

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I mean, he was the visionary for
Short Creek when he wrote The

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Economic Order of Heaven.
I mean, he he was the pen on the

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paper that made the movement
something coherent and

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compelling and cool for people.
And, and so when I first saw all

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the pamphlets that he wrote, I
was like, this is the guy, Like

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this is the story that needs to
be read.

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I I've often said this in some
ways, maybe in all ways, he's

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the granddaddy of us all as far
as fundamentalism goes, right?

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Whether?
Not me.

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Right, right now, so much you
right.

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I'm Yeah, yeah, but but you
can't talk about Mormon

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fundamentalism.
Like, OK, stupid football

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analogy.
I once heard someone say how you

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tell if someone should be in the
Hall of Fame is you can't tell

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the story of the NFL without
that person, right?

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And I don't you can't tell the
story of fundamentalism without

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talking about a Musser.
And it goes even deeper than

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that because whether whether
it's down in Short Creek and

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subsequently all the break offs
that happened there, whether

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it's up north with the new
council that's set up with

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Allred, his fingerprints are all
over it.

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Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.

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And I mean, even figure, like,
figure out a tradition of the

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doctrine without tying one of
his pamphlets to it or one of

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his ideas or one of his sermons
to it.

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I mean, he was a force to be
reckoned with.

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He was charismatic.
He was dapper.

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I mean, when he's in the
pictures of him in prison, like

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he looks like someone that you'd
you'll sign up to go with him.

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Like he was a guy that was
interesting.

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He was cool.
Now, he wasn't boots on the

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ground in the way Barlow was,
and he certainly wasn't kind.

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I mean, Leroy Johnson was
compelling in that he was a

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farmer.
He was a rancher and he was down

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there and he was with the
people.

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Who's a man of the people.
And so he was Mustard was

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different that he wasn't like
that, but he looked like the guy

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that knew what he was talking
about because he did.

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Yeah, he had a great mustache
too.

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I'm envious those that younger
picture and.

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I'm sad this one doesn't have
it, but he.

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Did have a killer stash.
I I gotta give it to him.

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He he, he rocked that thing,
especially if.

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He lived.
He lived the thing like he did

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the thing like he did the thing.
He lived the principal.

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It was hard on him.
It wasn't easy.

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His wives weren't into it.
My one of my favorite lines ever

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was Mary C Hill, one of his
wives, his second wife, when he

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leave, when she leaves him, he
writes in his diary and this is

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about the movement.
He was like, she finds my work

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obnoxious and I was like.
And I was like, well, my friend,

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I don't know.
If that's fair.

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But I mean, he struggled with it
and he lived a life that like

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he, it wasn't easy for him and
he was willing to do it anyway.

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And that in itself is something
to it's an auditory thing.

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Yeah, You know, the the other
thing that that I do like about

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Musser, and it's a reason I feel
like we can tie authority back,

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priesthood authority back to
Musser real easily is he doesn't

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get his authority from from
Woolley.

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It it comes directly from the
LDS Church, right.

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I mean.
And I, I mean Lindsay Hanson

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Park and I will disagree on
this, but I mean, he's the only

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one in the Woolley Council with
a second anointing.

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He's a he's AI mean.
Find the other guy, John my

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Barlow's excommunicated very
early.

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Woolly my Woolly probably said
he did.

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I don't know.
I don't know.

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That was a mean slight on
Woolly.

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But Muster gets his second
anointing early.

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He's 27 years old when he gets
his second anointing with Rose

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in the Logan Temple with under
George Joseph F Smith.

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Like, he's young and I mean, in
his diary he just writes temple

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blessings, but he he's really
young.

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We know that.
I mean, there's, I think he does

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pass on the second anointing.
I know that that's another kind

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of big question mark in
fundamental history.

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I think he does simply because
of one vague reference to Lucy,

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one of his wives performing
ordinances.

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What's Lucy doing?
What's Lucy doing?

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Kind of a dead giveaway.
And so I think that, you know,

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for that reason, he's of course
significant because he's the

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only one that I think the only
one that has received the

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highest blessings of the LDS
church, the highest authority in

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the LDS church.
And the reality, and I talk

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about in the book that the
reality is that the 2nd

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anointing is a problem for the
leadership of the LDS Church.

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And it's why we do have the
numbers that second anointings

238
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,640
have a sharp decline at Heber J
Grant.

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Because it is a problem for the
institution that how do you get

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00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,760
rid of a man that you tell can
never be gotten rid of.

241
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Right, right.
And, and for like the two people

242
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:22,280
who listen who aren't Mormon
ever on this podcast, those

243
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,440
second anointings are huge
because basically what it is,

244
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while you may never get the call
as president of the church, you

245
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,360
hold every key in office that
the church has to offer.

246
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,840
And so you are essentially under
under no man when it comes to

247
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,240
this.
You can do anything you need to

248
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,160
as far as Mormonism goes.
If you have that ordinance.

249
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And it it's an interesting, he
comes, he comes into his own in

250
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,160
a very interesting time in
Mormon history, period, right.

251
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In some ways, Musser bridges the
gap between pioneer Mormonism

252
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,480
and then what we what we
ultimately end up with with

253
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Heber Jay Grant, he bridges that
gap and it and it's fascinating

254
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:11,680
to.
Watch.

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00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,000
And, and he knew that.
I mean, there's kind of two

256
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moments that I think are really
indicative of his life.

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I mean, when I look at his life,
these are the two moments that

258
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I'm like, oh, this was a guy
that knew what he was about.

259
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,560
It was his 1909 disciplinary
hearing where he walks into the

260
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room and he specifically names
and it was in the Salt Lake

261
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Temple, which I realized for a
lot of Mormon people that seemed

262
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,240
strange to do your disciplinary
hearing in the temple.

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And he notes that everyone was
late to calling him into the

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hearing.
He just has a lot of like

265
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,160
pointed commentary about the
leadership, but he's called into

266
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,600
the to the temple and he notes
certain men that were in the

267
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,040
room.
And he notes those men because

268
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,400
those are the men that had
either married polygamously

269
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,680
after the manifesto or
solemnized plural marriages.

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00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,560
Like he knew that if you're
going to come at me for this,

271
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,520
I'm going to note that you were
one of these men.

272
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,360
Like you are me.
We're the same person.

273
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,920
And he's like Hebridge J Grant,
polygamist, Ruger Clawson,

274
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,000
polygamist, Anthony Evans,
polygamist.

275
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:19,200
And so he he notes this and they
start going after him for being

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00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,320
out of harmony.
That's the language they used.

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00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,480
And in the most kind of passive
aggressive way, he's like,

278
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,160
you're not my stake president.
Who are you to try to discipline

279
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,120
me?
This is out of order.

280
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,000
You can't do this.
And they were like, and they

281
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,760
have to concede because it's
true.

282
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,120
Like they're not his stake
president.

283
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,160
And that is how discipline works
in the LDS church.

284
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,640
And of course, the bummer for
them is his stake president is

285
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,200
also a polygamist and he and his
take president are secretly

286
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,480
plotting to like live United
Order together.

287
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,880
And so he's not going to get
disciplined in 1909.

288
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,880
And he leaves that meeting.
Nothing happens, which is very

289
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,240
interesting. 1909, no discipline
happens.

290
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,040
And he leaves the meeting in the
last line in his diary after

291
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,520
that meeting is I'm prepared to
lay down my life for this.

292
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:14,560
And that's bold move.
But the other interesting thing

293
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,200
in his life, I think, is in
1921, he has excommunicated

294
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,200
finally.
That's very late.

295
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:20,440
It is late.
Very late.

296
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,520
And I've talked about this quite
a bit that I was so interested

297
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,480
in.
What is the diary entry gonna

298
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,960
say?
Like the day that it's over, the

299
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,200
day your life changes, the day
that you're cut off from the

300
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,800
church, the day you're cut off
from everything, from your

301
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:38,560
family, from everything you've
ever known.

302
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,160
What's he gonna do?
And he taped in the Deseret News

303
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,040
clip because of course, it was
published in the news.

304
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,520
That he had been.
Excommunicated and he just

305
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:54,840
writes very busy day at the
office because he didn't because

306
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,280
it didn't matter.
But it didn't matter.

307
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:02,040
I mean, and I'm sure it did in
that like his children suffered,

308
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:04,560
he lost his job.
Like, you know, being an

309
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,040
excommunicated Mormon in that
time, you're going to lose your

310
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:07,960
job.
It's going to be hard on your

311
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:08,920
kids.
It's going to be hard on your

312
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,440
family.
But when it came to what he

313
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,760
believed about his spiritual
life and about his eternity,

314
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,840
that didn't change with his
excommunication, right?

315
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,440
Wow.
The the.

316
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,480
And.
That's the thing I think doesn't

317
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,840
come through a lot, right?
Certainly as fundamentalist, we

318
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,600
look at at Musser with, with
adoration, with, you know,

319
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,840
thankfulness that he kept all
this alive, right?

320
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,440
And and it's just not plural
marriage either, right?

321
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:43,560
No, he.
He.

322
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:48,080
Is now beginning to see in this
time that a lot of the teachings

323
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,520
that he had been brought up
with, they're, they're being

324
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,040
shoved to the back now.
And Oh yeah.

325
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,920
And.
Does he ever make any mention of

326
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,320
that in his Diaries about
anything other than plural

327
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:00,760
marriage?
About trying to preserve.

328
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:06,680
Plural marriage is the big one,
certainly, and I think a lot of

329
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,520
that is because he was a
believer in the vision of 1886

330
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,440
that he was tasked with keeping
polygamy alive.

331
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,360
He was tasked with like this was
the goal, right is keep the

332
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:21,440
principal alive.
And so he did believe that that

333
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,240
was the crux of the matter
because the vision of the early

334
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,880
and I you know, what is a
fundamental depends on the group

335
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,720
now, but early on, like the
reality is the fundamental was

336
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:34,680
the principle of plural
marriage.

337
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,880
Like that was the thing.
And so for him that really

338
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,760
everything right like wrote on
that.

339
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,560
But you know, how do you the
secondary thing as soon as you

340
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,520
figure out that plural marriage
has to keep going.

341
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,960
Next question is how and so then
you have to figure out what is

342
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,040
the priesthood?
And once you deal with what is

343
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,640
the priesthood, then you and if
you say it's the power of God,

344
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,400
great, but who is that?
And so then you got this big

345
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,080
question of who is that?
Like who is God?

346
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,160
And so he was interesting in
that of course, he believed that

347
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,480
Adam was God.
He really expanded how that

348
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,600
worked.
He really expanded how Joseph

349
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,080
Smith fit into that as the third
member of the Godhead, which he

350
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:20,640
had ardent.
Resolve in, I think that's

351
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,760
actually one more interesting
things that he really promoted

352
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,840
is at the end of his life
especially, he had an ardent

353
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,360
resolve that Joseph Smith was
the Holy Ghost.

354
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,680
The Holy Ghost has a body in
this dispensation.

355
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,760
We know who it is, it is Joseph
Smith.

356
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,360
And so that I thought was really
interesting and kind of

357
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:41,880
explaining how the cosmology
works, how the office, the idea

358
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,280
of God's having offices.
He did a lot of work with that,

359
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,600
which is very interesting.
He outlined then, so now that

360
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,600
you know who God is, now you
have to figure out how to live

361
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,040
like him.
And So what does it mean to like

362
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:54,400
live communitarianism?
What is it?

363
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,160
And so he argued that you
cannot, you fundamentally cannot

364
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,760
live the order of Abraham
without living the order of

365
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,880
Enoch.
And so he really had to set out

366
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,520
this vision for living
communitarianly what he called

367
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,800
the economic order of heaven and
so and the Kingdom of God.

368
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,640
And so he had this very kind of
holistic vision of what the

369
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,320
fundamentalist movement was
supposed to be in a way that I

370
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,360
don't think a lot of other
people had really grappled with

371
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,360
the fact that, all right, once
we're living polygamy, what else

372
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:27,400
does that mean?
Right, right.

373
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,880
Is there a moment that you can
tell that he.

374
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,120
He all of a sudden.
Do you feel like that that with

375
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:40,560
with Joseph Smith being being
the Holy Ghost in in in his eye,

376
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,240
in his mind?
It certainly didn't originate

377
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,600
with Musser, right?
This was on the lips of pioneer

378
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,560
era Mormonism.
But is there a moment that you

379
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:54,280
think you can point to in which
he he's like, Oh no, this is

380
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,280
definitely true?
Or do you think this is

381
00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:01,040
something he builds up to?
I think it's, I think he

382
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,360
believed it very early.
I mean, Woolley certainly taught

383
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:04,760
it.
And so in the Book of

384
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,400
Remembrances, Woolley's talking
about it.

385
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,880
And so I think that had to be
the thing.

386
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,640
But 1937 he wrote a full issue
of Truth magazine kind of

387
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,760
commemorating Joseph Smith and
he titles it The Witness

388
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,520
Infestator.
And I mean, that's thirty 1937

389
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,480
is very late, but that that was
a bold move to write a full

390
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,520
thing of Truth magazine on this
is where we stand on this issue.

391
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,640
This is the doctrine of the
Church, but this is this is what

392
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,000
it's supposed to be.
And so I think he definitely

393
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,400
believed it earlier, wrote about
it earlier.

394
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,600
But I would say in 1937, he's
like, this is the teaching of

395
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,880
the church, and on it we're
gonna stand as a people.

396
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,040
Wow.
And you know, back to to him

397
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,360
losing his job and everything.
I think it's so hard for us

398
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:59,240
today because.
In some ways.

399
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:03,200
Those who have been raised
fundamentalist, they've just

400
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,560
grew up kind of in that right
where where you're kind of on

401
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,360
the outside a little bit.
And then by and.

402
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:14,800
Large most LDS people look at
fundamentalists as as maybe

403
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,200
their crazy cousin, if not
downright, you know, evil

404
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,240
apostates.
But.

405
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:26,000
In those days, I mean, it's not
like Utah is what it is now,

406
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,520
right?
There's, there's no diversity of

407
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,400
thought that you know, there,
there's, you know, there are

408
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,400
other churches, but they're few
and far between like they are

409
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,240
now, but even more pronounced.
So he's putting it all on the

410
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:44,840
line, his livelihood, all of it.
At what point do you think that

411
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,680
that he realizes he's gonna
have?

412
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,120
Well, let me.
Rephrase it this way.

413
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:52,600
You talk.
About him?

414
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,360
Now reaching.
A point where he, it's more than

415
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,560
plural marriage, right?
Talking about United Order,

416
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,840
those sorts of things.
Does anybody else catch that

417
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,520
vision or is it just him?
The whole council, certain.

418
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,120
I mean, the whole council
absolutely does.

419
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,800
In 1931, Huber J Grant takes to
the podium and he's like, look,

420
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:19,360
we're not polygamous anymore.
And I mean 1933 then a lot of

421
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:21,960
people call it the third
manifesto where Huber J Grant is

422
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,080
like, listen, we're done and
we're done in that you have to

423
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,880
sign a loyalty oath or you're
out and we're sending the cops

424
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,880
after you.
And that's a, that's a game

425
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,440
changing moment.
And that's, I mean, that's the

426
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,280
birth of Short Creek is that the
council sends men down to kind

427
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,120
of look out the land to check
out the Arizona strip.

428
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,680
Land is purchased, land is
handed over and Short Creek is

429
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,960
born.
It's, I mean, Joseph Messer

430
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,000
watches the LDS Church very
closely, which let's be real, a

431
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,920
lot of fundamentalists watch the
LDS Church very closely.

432
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,960
But of course they do like, of
course they do.

433
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,120
It's the mother church for, I
mean, in this generation it was

434
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:01,520
still referred to as the mother
church.

435
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,040
And so he he would write very
rigorous notes about General

436
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,480
Conference and what they're up
to with a lot of disdain for

437
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,800
Huber J Grant especially.
And so in 1933 when he sees

438
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,960
Huber J Grant do this and he
talks a lot about like when

439
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,600
Huber J Grant does this in 1933,
he writes, he's like, you're a

440
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,560
polygamist.
Like, say it, say what you are.

441
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:29,880
And he like, I think that's all
that.

442
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,280
I think that's actually why
Heber J Grant received so much

443
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,280
ire from the fundamentalists is
because Heber J Grant was a

444
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,240
polygamist.
Heber J Grant is going to die

445
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,760
assumably, and be united with
all his wives and attain some

446
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,520
degree of glory.
But he's causing a lot of men to

447
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,160
lose out on that suddenly.
And so Heber J Grant got his in

448
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,600
their mind, like, what are you
doing?

449
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,560
And so that's, that's almost,
that's worse than having never

450
00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,200
been one.
And so in 1933, when Huber J

451
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,920
Grant starts to kind of buckle
down, and then, of course, in

452
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,960
1935, police start rounding up
people.

453
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,320
Charles Zitting goes to prison.
Charles Zitting's wife is

454
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,480
excommunicated.
Price Johnson goes to prison.

455
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,160
We start to see Musser's friends
get disciplined.

456
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,080
Ultimately, of course, Musser
goes to prison, too.

457
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,720
In 1944, he actually serves the
same sentence for the same crime

458
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,000
that his dad did in the
territorial state prison because

459
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,920
but his dad, of course, was a
polygamist like when you were

460
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,800
allowed to be.
So it's a little different.

461
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,920
And, and I mean, that's also
kind of a badge of honor for him

462
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,760
that he did what his dad did.
And so I think that I think that

463
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,240
I think 1933 is his turning
point moment where he's like,

464
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,600
I'm these aren't my people
anymore.

465
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,680
Like my people are the Mormons
that are willing to like die for

466
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,200
something and see.
This is This is where Musser.

467
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,040
I think.
I think.

468
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,520
Anyone who's come out of the LDS
Church and became a

469
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,200
fundamentalist and, and
certainly as, as I thought about

470
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,640
This is why I can resonate so
well, I think with Musser more

471
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,960
than any of the other council,
because in some ways he had to

472
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,800
do the same things I did, right?
I had less to lose, I will say

473
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,400
that, right?
I didn't have to worry

474
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,880
necessarily about my job.
I didn't have to worry about,

475
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,960
you know, going to prison, those
sorts of things.

476
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,960
But some of that angst is the
same, right?

477
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,960
Guys you used to hang with that
you thought were kind of like

478
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,480
your ride and die homies all of
a sudden aren't, right?

479
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,440
And you start finding out real
fast who, who's, who's

480
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,960
interested as you as a person
and who is just there because

481
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,920
you hung out in the same Pew or
whatever.

482
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,520
And, and I think in that way
muster, muster can anyone who's

483
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,280
come out of the LDS church, or
for that matter, if you've left

484
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,840
any church within Mormonism,
right, fundamentalist or

485
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,560
whatever.
Muster's your guy, right?

486
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,240
You can, you can, you can
identify with him better than

487
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,960
than perhaps any of the other
council because he's gonna go

488
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,920
through the same things you're
gonna go through.

489
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,200
Yeah.
And I, I think, I think people

490
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,640
are also, people are very quick
to, you know, whenever I've

491
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,160
talked to people who follow the
Barlow line, people are very

492
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,880
quick to point out that Mustard
caved and signed the loyalty

493
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,240
oath in prison in 1844.
And therefore his priesthood is

494
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,640
whatever and he's a Woodruff for
another time or whatever look.

495
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,280
I got something.
To say to all those people, what

496
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,880
would you have done?
You have 7 something wives and

497
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,040
you have how many kids?
And you're the sole provider and

498
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,440
you're sitting in a prison cell.
Of course you're going to sign a

499
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,320
document with your fingers
crossed behind your back.

500
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,280
Of course you are of.
Course you are.

501
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,320
Like, of course you are.
I mean, and he's signed

502
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,000
obviously with no intent of ever
living it because he kept

503
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,880
getting married and he kept
telling other people to get

504
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,720
married.
Like we know that he did it just

505
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,200
to appease the like we know that
he was doing it just to get out

506
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,320
of prison.
But it is interesting that I do

507
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,880
hear a lot of people point to
that as a that Muster also

508
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,800
conceded, like Woodruff.
No, he didn't.

509
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,600
He he needed to get out of
prison.

510
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:20,040
No.
And he?

511
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,560
Needed.
To reminds.

512
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,840
Me, one day I'm gonna write a
book called The Five Stages of

513
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,080
Becoming, the Fundamentalism of
Becoming a Fundamentalist.

514
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,400
And one of those is you're gonna
have a deep, white hot, seething

515
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:37,000
hate for wood Wilford Woodruff.
And then you're going to get to

516
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,080
a point to where you're like,
oh, I see what he did there,

517
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,440
'cause even Woodruff, I mean,
let's face it.

518
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,640
The the.
When, when they signed the

519
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,480
manifesto, they had no, no
intentions of stopping plural

520
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,640
marriage.
You know, I mean it was, I mean

521
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,040
the only.
The only reason I have a hard

522
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,000
time with Woodruff is 'cause
you're coming right on the back

523
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,800
of John Taylor, right?
Yeah, well, that's true.

524
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,160
I mean, right.
Like.

525
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,600
If, if it had been like Lorenzo
Snow, it'd be a little

526
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,400
different.
But like right on the back of

527
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,640
John Taylor, you're gonna cave.
I don't.

528
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,640
Know man, like I don't know I'm.
I'm with you.

529
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,280
I mean, look, there's no,
there's no doubt both John

530
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,440
Taylor and his son John W, they
were straight up gangster in

531
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,720
Mormon terms, right?
They are not, they are not

532
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,000
caving.
They are.

533
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,080
They are in it to win it and and
like and.

534
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,640
Matthias Cowley, like he, I mean
he did Muster's plural, one of

535
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,280
Muster's plural ceilings, at
least one, we think his third

536
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,840
was under his authority that
Judson Tulman did it under the

537
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,680
authority of Matthias Cowley.
It's a.

538
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:42,920
Weird document.
I don't know.

539
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,200
That's the only document's a
little weird.

540
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,240
But yeah, I mean, there were
people certainly willing to.

541
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,680
I mean, that's why it's such a
weird time.

542
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,960
But also, like, Hugh B Brown's
dad is out there, like giving

543
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,880
patriarchal blessings to all of
the councilman's wives and his

544
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,200
daughter is marrying rural.
And Jeff's like, what's going

545
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,480
on?
Like, what is this period?

546
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:01,600
Well.
Yeah.

547
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,560
And and.
That.

548
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,200
That's what.
Makes this time even more

549
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,640
fascinating 'cause it's got a
little cloak and dagger involved

550
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,560
too, right?
You don't know who's on your

551
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,600
side, but you know you got boys
up there somewhere, right?

552
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,480
And, and they'll come out of the
woodwork for you at certain

553
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,760
times.
But it's not a church that's

554
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,520
united during during this time
whatsoever.

555
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,840
It's no.
It's Muster says that.

556
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,240
Muster says that after his 1909
councils, you know, he says I'm

557
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,840
willing to die for this.
Also, the council is not united

558
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,160
like he's and I think that is
kind of one of his early cracks

559
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,560
in his shelf, to use a Mormon
metaphor for this, is that that

560
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,880
is a hard realization to realize
that the 12 apostles don't agree

561
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,560
on something that is like that
is as significant as the

562
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,760
mechanism of your exaltation,
right?

563
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,360
Like.
The marriage system of the gods.

564
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,880
They disagree on the marriage
system of the gods.

565
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:57,440
Yeah.
Yeah, it's.

566
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,840
Like.
I I gotta?

567
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,600
Ask this question cause too
often I feel like.

568
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,720
With.
With people that we we admire in

569
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,240
history.
It's one of my big pet peeves

570
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,320
with George Washington.
I love Washington.

571
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,760
I I could read books on
Washington all day long.

572
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,040
But we've.
Turned him into a marble statue,

573
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,840
right?
We don't see any of his humanity

574
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,680
come through.
And that concerns me somewhat

575
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,240
with some of our early
fundamentalist leaders, right.

576
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,800
Let's not turn the men into
marble statues.

577
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,520
These were guys who had passions
who were embroiled in some

578
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,000
serious stuff.
Is is there.

579
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,080
And and that's why I'm gonna ask
this next question.

580
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,640
Is there ever a point in in your
research where where you can see

581
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:54,240
first maybe a down day, so to
speak, when when everything

582
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,680
looks just absolutely like it's
going to come undone for Musser?

583
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,120
Every time one of his wives left
him.

584
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:03,800
Really.
I mean this is a.

585
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:10,760
Man who like the reality right
is his wives left him, his first

586
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:16,640
wife left his second wife left
his third wife like not great,

587
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,040
not great and and they not like
Rose never had her ceiling

588
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,760
cancelled.
She never cancelled her ceiling

589
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,680
when Mary left that.
I mean, that would have been

590
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,040
weird.
You couldn't cancel that 'cause

591
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,120
that was done like Rogue by
Matthias Cowley.

592
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,360
So I don't, I don't even know
what the mechanism for

593
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,920
cancelling.
I mean, that's like, how do you

594
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,040
cancel a ceiling that Patriarch
Judson Pullman did in your

595
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,640
house?
Like how do you I?

596
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:42,760
Don't know.
How you do that?

597
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,760
But his wives weren't happy.
His wives weren't into it.

598
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,280
And.
Certainly later ones were, but

599
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,360
like Myrtle Anderson was married
to him for like just like a

600
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,920
couple months and she left.
And I think that's something to

601
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:05,440
kind of I think that I mean, I
would hope that that would at

602
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,480
least give some pause to people
of this is someone who ardently

603
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,400
espouse before marriage.
Why couldn't he do it at least

604
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,800
with his early wives now?
Certainly, I mean, one of the

605
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,120
kind of interesting things for
me.

606
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,159
I don't know how many wives he
had.

607
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,719
So that's also an interesting
phenomenon is I have no idea how

608
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,880
many wives he had.
I remember when I I remember

609
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,840
when I when Brian Buchanan and I
discovered Myrtle Anderson and

610
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,920
we were so excited and, you
know, we talked to Marianne

611
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,199
Watson and Marianne Watson was
like, yeah, we know that.

612
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,639
And I'm like, how many did he
have?

613
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:39,400
So I don't know.
But I mean, that's also kind of

614
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,000
a weird situation.
It's like, how many wives does

615
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,320
he have?
But we do know that the early

616
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,600
ones weren't happy.
Gotcha.

617
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,880
Well.
And I think.

618
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,800
This goes back to this idea of
making marble statues out of

619
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:56,120
men, right, 'cause let's face
it, we don't want to see anybody

620
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,920
that we Revere get drugged
through the mud.

621
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,360
I mean, it's just not something
we want.

622
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,080
But I think.
There's value in, in knowing

623
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,880
this, right?
I, I think, I think it's one of

624
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,080
those things that that should
give us pause.

625
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,920
Those of us who have entered or
or will enter, you know, plural

626
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,720
marriage, it's not.
It's not for the.

627
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:23,160
Faint of heart, and I'll be,
I'll be honest.

628
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,600
I'll, I'll, I'll expose some
things here a little bit about

629
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,320
myself.
I, I, it was, it was over a

630
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,640
decade before I ever really
thought seriously about it again

631
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,720
after the first one went bad,
right?

632
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:41,600
I, I, you, this is stuff that,
that will break your heart.

633
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,240
If, if, if you can't hold it
together, so to speak, and

634
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:47,840
everyone's not committed or, or
what, whatever.

635
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,760
I think everyone could be
committed and it's still gonna

636
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,040
be hard.
But it takes, it takes, it takes

637
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,480
a little bit of gumption, but
the fact he goes through that.

638
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,600
Just like.
I look at Peter sometimes, and

639
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,480
you know what?
That that's a flawed guy.

640
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,360
Out of all of scripture, I can
relate to Peter, right?

641
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,720
I'm gonna try my damnedest and
I'm gonna fall on my face just

642
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:13,720
as hard.
And yet there's still hope.

643
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,480
And, and I think that's, that's
one of those things that I feel

644
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,360
like we do ourselves a
disservice by painting men as as

645
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,760
infallible, so to speak, as we
don't get to see their pain.

646
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,000
And and I think that is
worthwhile.

647
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,520
I mean, we also have to remember
that Muster wouldn't have wanted

648
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,480
to be viewed that way, right?
Muster.

649
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,720
Muster was.
Deeply.

650
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:42,720
Against the direction, Barlow
was going very against it.

651
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,520
In terms of.
In terms of Barlow, I mean the

652
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:51,880
two kind of big when I think of
like the early fissures in the

653
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,280
movement that eventually led to
the split in the 50s that

654
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,360
eventually becomes the AUB and
the FLDS.

655
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:05,680
The two things Barlow does that
really start to raise eyebrows

656
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,120
for Musser and for Lewis Kell.
I mean for a lot of them.

657
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,920
But for certainly for for Musser
it is there's a big question of

658
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:13,720
like what does the president of
the priesthood do?

659
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:17,040
Does he have control over
eternal issues or does he have

660
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,320
temporal authority too?
And Barlow certainly thought he

661
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,480
had a temporal claim.
The United border, the United

662
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,840
effort plan was Barlow's vision
and who should who should be the

663
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,880
leader of it?
Who should have the claim over

664
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,240
it?
Charles Zitting and Lewis Kelch,

665
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:37,000
notable notably, didn't sign
over their land.

666
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,000
They didn't they didn't want to
be part of it.

667
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,280
Lewis Kelch, of course, now
father of the independent

668
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:47,880
movement, but Charles Zitting OG
Councilman, does not participate

669
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,480
in the United ever plan.
He he says a big no to being

670
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,040
part of this kind of
consolidation of power, which

671
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,000
eventually will become one man
rule.

672
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,520
I mean, over time will turn into
that.

673
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,760
But this consolidation of not
only eternal power, but also

674
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,600
temporal and the temporal power
manifesting itself in united

675
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,600
effort plan, but in the terms of
the eternal control that Barlow

676
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,680
had is Barlow's beginning of
placement marriage.

677
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,600
That's not Messer's dream.
That was a Barlow dream.

678
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,520
And we know that from, I mean,
Marion Watson.

679
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,840
I think one of the greatest
articles that about the Mormon

680
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,760
fundamentals movement is Marion
Watson's article on the origin

681
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,360
of FLDS placement marriage,
tracing it to Barlow, which is

682
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,320
very early.
And she does this because it's

683
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,480
one of Joseph, Lyman, Joseph's
daughters.

684
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,600
And he goes to Muster and he
says, what do I do?

685
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,240
Like this is this is wild.
And Muster radically disagrees.

686
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,800
And so placement marriage
becomes Barlow's hold on

687
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,880
eternity and the UEP becomes
Barlow's hold on temporality.

688
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,400
And together that eventually
will kind of become, I mean,

689
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,480
every time, usually when there's
those two things together, it

690
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,240
will become one man rule
eventually, or at least kind of

691
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:58,360
start to look like that.
But Muster was not interested in

692
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,200
either of those things at all.
Muster didn't think he had the

693
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,000
authority to do that.
Muster was a member of a

694
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,240
council.
Now, of course, Muster does end

695
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:09,720
up kind of going rogue and
ordaining people outside of

696
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,760
outside of the hierarchy and the
famous Allred ordination.

697
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,480
But Muster wouldn't have wanted
to be viewed as he didn't want

698
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,360
to be.
Heber J Grant in southern Utah.

699
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,320
Like, he didn't want to be the
other Hebrew J Grant.

700
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,240
He was something different.
He was doing something

701
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:29,920
different.
And so I think, you know, I

702
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,080
think my criticism of like,
keeping your house in order or

703
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,760
whatever thing that can sound
harsh, but I think muster would

704
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,920
have been, would have been like,
yeah, like, I'm not.

705
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:44,560
I'm just a guy trying to keep
Joseph Smith's vision alive.

706
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,680
Interesting.
You excuse me, you brought up.

707
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:57,320
The him ordaining men from
outside the council, 'cause

708
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,160
that's been one of my
contentions.

709
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,640
Is that it?
As I've said, and I'm not a

710
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,040
trained historian and there's a
ton of guys out there who aren't

711
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,200
a trained historian who are way
better at history than I am.

712
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,800
Michael Ness being a shout out
to him but.

713
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,400
To me.
Just on the.

714
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,000
Surface it looks like Musser's
breaking point is the placement

715
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:26,280
marriage thing and.
He he's got some.

716
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,360
He's got one spicy quote I can
think of where he's very

717
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,480
forceful.
On.

718
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,160
On not doing that, is that kind
of what you saw as well?

719
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:36,960
Do you think it's something else
or do you think it's a

720
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,120
combination of them?
I think the, I think, I think

721
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,200
the UEP was only because that
came first.

722
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:47,200
And now what I'm about to say I
realize is from Muster's

723
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:55,040
perspective, I realize this is
Musterite line biased, but it's

724
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,720
also in the diary.
So it is what it is.

725
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,600
When the UEP started going, you
know, loose Kelch isn't signing

726
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,600
over anything.
Like, of course, loose Kelch

727
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,800
isn't.
And he, Muster and Kelch go to

728
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,840
Barlow to talk about this UEP
conundrum of like, what

729
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,320
authority are you exercising?
Like, does the priesthood have

730
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,560
control over the earth?
Like what's going on?

731
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,120
And he goes to Barlow and he
says, do you hold the keys to

732
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:31,000
the priesthood?
And Barlow says, no, Wild.

733
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,480
Now, I've told this story many
times, and I most recently told

734
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,800
it.
I was, I did a tour of Short

735
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,920
Creek with a group of people and
you know, some former members of

736
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,200
the FLDS were there who are.
Incredible.

737
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,000
In the work they do, I mean,
Mayor Danya Jessup and Shirley

738
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,480
Draper, just incredible people.
And I told the story and they

739
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,520
were like, all right, that's
that's a may you be propaganda,

740
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,320
but it isn't that I mean, and of
course, you know, I mean, it is

741
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,120
from US perspective.
Would Barlow told the story the

742
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,480
same?
Of course not.

743
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,760
But you know I.
Mean Barlow does.

744
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,280
Concede and he's like, I don't
know.

745
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:07,760
I don't know.
And I mean.

746
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,480
Barlow is.
The reality is Barlow is senior

747
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,960
in terms of his ordination.
But like, is Barlow senior to a

748
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,480
guy that got his second
anointing at 27?

749
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,600
I don't know.
That's a.

750
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,480
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point
too.

751
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,160
Like what is?
Senior What is seniority in the

752
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,000
Council?
Yes, Barlow was ordained first,

753
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:33,320
technically by woolly, but like,
once you're all ordained high

754
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,480
priest apostles to the whole
world, you're pretty much.

755
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,360
I don't know if.
Like if you got it done a few

756
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,800
years earlier, if it's like that
different maybe, but also like

757
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:43,880
you got your second.
Like what?

758
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,440
What's going on?
Like, yeah, Barlow's older, but

759
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,040
like.
I don't.

760
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:51,520
Know, I think there had to have
been.

761
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,120
No, he doesn't know that he
never talks.

762
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,400
I, I mean, I think to his
credit, in terms of his

763
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,240
humility, he never, he never
doesn't seem to ever wield his

764
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:01,360
second anointing over people.
Right I.

765
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:06,480
I would have I in that moment,
but of course I would have, I'm

766
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,360
a, you know, I would have, I'm a
miserable Sinner.

767
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:15,000
But yeah, I I mean what I I
don't.

768
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,000
Know.
I I think that that was kind of

769
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,160
his big concern and then the
placement marriage broke him.

770
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,640
OK, All right.
What after he suffers his

771
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,720
stroke?
This has been something I

772
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:31,040
haven't been able to to find out
one way or another.

773
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,320
After he suffers his stroke, he
still continues in his ministry.

774
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,840
I mean, he slows down somewhat,
but he's he's still he's still

775
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,520
putting others to shame, right?
I mean, like, honestly, if, if I

776
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,480
suffer a stroke, I'm I'm going
to sit in my chair and watch a

777
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,360
lot of football.
But he kept going.

778
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:52,040
Absolutely.
Absolutely was.

779
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,400
Was were all of his faculty
still pretty much intact at that

780
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,000
time?
That's a.

781
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,280
Good question.
I mean, it's hard to note until

782
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,760
he doesn't.
His diary kind of is over at

783
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:08,120
that point.
A lot of women's Diaries from

784
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:11,800
Allred's wives, Allred's
sisters, those are kind of

785
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,600
really significant.
Of course, the Joseph Lyman

786
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,680
Joseph Diaries are really the
bulk of what we have about his

787
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,240
life then.
And what is hard is it would

788
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,480
seem like it is.
I do want to know.

789
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,840
I know the I know the all red
ordination is incredibly

790
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:32,960
contentious because it's it is
out of order.

791
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,960
But it is worth noting that John
White Barlow did the same thing

792
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,640
that John White Barlow also is
kind of like ordaining men in

793
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,320
the council that were not in the
traditional line of authority.

794
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,680
Allred also wasn't no one like
Allred wasn't a nobody.

795
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,000
Allred's kind of earliest
activity in the movement is

796
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,840
Allred was commissioned by John
Y Barlow in 1935 to go to

797
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,440
Mexico, or I'm sorry, to go to
California and perform plural

798
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,480
ceilings.
He goes down and he he does

799
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,120
plural.
He's does a lot of missionary

800
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:10,200
work in Mexico.
He does a lot for the movement.

801
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,920
So he does have authority under
Barlow to be perpetuating the

802
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,640
movement.
So he certainly wasn't on the

803
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,280
council, but he wasn't no one.
And I think sometimes when we

804
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,280
hear the controversy over all
red, it's framed as though he's

805
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,760
this random nobody doctor in
California who no one has ever

806
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,800
heard of before.
And suddenly he's on the

807
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,040
council.
And that's really not true.

808
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,640
He's he's doing things under
Barlow's authority in 1935,

809
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:41,160
which is very early, very early.
Let let me ask.

810
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,680
This question 'cause this is
something I've wondered about a

811
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:52,160
lot within fundamentalism.
It takes a good chunk of time

812
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,920
before anyone starts thinking
about a church again.

813
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:00,400
Now as.
Far as I can tell this is in in

814
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,320
Part 2 reasons.
One is the 8 hour meeting where

815
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,840
it's like, hey, you guys are
here, just keep plural marriage

816
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,960
alive.
This is what we're gonna do.

817
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,960
And then also in when there
there's a meeting that's held in

818
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,240
the Celestial Room, if I'm not
mistaken, in the Salt Lake

819
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:22,560
Temple with the first counselor
in the First presidency of the

820
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,480
LDS Church, where it's basically
said just keep your records

821
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,560
'cause we're gonna bring you
guys right back in as soon as

822
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,960
this whole polygamy thing blows
over, so to speak.

823
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,760
Right.
And that never happens, right?

824
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,040
But, but it's always kind of in
people's minds, it's gonna go

825
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,640
back.
Did Musser ever come to a point

826
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,000
at which he understood we're
gonna have to do everything on

827
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,080
our own?
Did did that promise ever wear

828
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,560
off in his mind, so to speak?
I don't think he ever saw the

829
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,680
church going back.
Really.

830
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:55,880
Ever I.
Don't.

831
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,320
I don't think so.
I don't think so.

832
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:00,800
I mean.
If he did.

833
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,600
Think it he never wrote about it
in his diary.

834
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,520
OK, I mean.
I don't have any sense that he

835
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,120
was holding out hope for that.
Muster died.

836
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,200
Muster died believing the church
was out of order.

837
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,720
So everybody.
Remembers Joshua Erickson.

838
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:21,080
I've had him on the podcast
quite a few times and I think

839
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,760
highly of both him and his
family.

840
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,120
They're some of the best people
I know now.

841
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,800
Every year they host an event
where speakers give talks on a

842
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,880
variety of gospel topics.
This year, the 2024 Restoration

843
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,400
Tour Conference will be
happening on June 14th and 15th

844
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:39,120
on the schedule.
This year there are 14 speakers

845
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,440
on a variety of topics.
Now you can attend either in

846
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,360
person or virtually.
And while it's always free to

847
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,440
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848
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,640
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this aren't easy to put on, nor

849
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,480
are they cheap.
So head on over to

850
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,960
restorationtourconference.org or
hit the link in this episode's

851
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,960
show notes and get all the
details and Sign up today.

852
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,280
Want.
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853
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:07,120
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854
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:11,040
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855
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,480
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856
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,040
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00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:22,000
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859
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860
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,360
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

861
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,480
Muster died.
Muster died believing the church

862
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:41,440
was out of order.
Now.

863
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,440
I mean, I think I think he
would.

864
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,280
I mean, I think he would hope
for a day, but I mean must have

865
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,160
met a lot of one mighty and
strong's in his life.

866
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,000
I mean he hung out with a lot of
men that made this claim.

867
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,640
I don't, I don't.
I think he thought he certainly

868
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,840
would have called it the Mother
Church and now he did.

869
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,760
He died thinking it was the
church.

870
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:05,080
Don't get me.
Wrong.

871
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,760
Like he did die believing this
is the church, but he certainly

872
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,960
died believing that the
priesthood exists outside of the

873
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,880
church.
And it's it's with us, it's not

874
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,440
with them.
And I, I don't, I don't have a

875
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,480
sense in which he thought that
they would be united again in at

876
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,600
least in his lifetime.
I think he was very like, yeah,

877
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:28,280
this is, this is what it is.
I don't really think.

878
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,680
I mean, I don't, I also though,
I, I don't think Massa ever

879
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,880
would have want ever would have
wanted people to start a church.

880
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,320
The idea of incorporating into
churches, like formal

881
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,560
incorporations as churches, I do
not think Massa ever would have

882
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,880
wanted that.
Now, he also could not have

883
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,040
foreseen later, quote, UN quote,
apostasies.

884
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,080
And I say that because, you
know, what people do as apostasy

885
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,280
is very different depending on
the group.

886
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,800
But, you know, I know he
couldn't have foreseen the

887
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,920
changes to the LDS church and
what was to come.

888
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,160
And so maybe he would have
changed.

889
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,960
But certainly when he died, I
don't think he ever thought

890
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,040
because he spent so long writing
that there's a difference

891
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:08,160
between the church and the
priesthood.

892
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,240
Like he spent so long
articulating this difference

893
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:13,760
that to then say, well, it'll
get healed, it'll be fine in the

894
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:14,800
end.
I don't.

895
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:19,400
I don't think he saw that ever
coming in any substantial way.

896
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,440
Do you ever think that it's on
'cause like?

897
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,240
Everything.
In Mormonism, at some point

898
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,440
leads people to the temple or
those ordinances that are

899
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,480
contained in the temple.
Does he ever express any

900
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:42,320
interest or thought into
organizing into something that

901
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,960
would resemble the church, a
temple, a building, anything?

902
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,280
No.
And so they were content just to

903
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,600
do those ordinances outside of,
of a temple.

904
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,000
I I.
I mean, now, granted, I started

905
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:01,040
transcribing his Diaries in 2018
with Brian Buchanan.

906
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:09,720
It's been a while.
But no, I mean, so he does, he

907
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:14,680
does, he does do some things
with Margarita Bautista in

908
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,120
Mexico, who ultimately does kind
of have a vision of a temple.

909
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,000
How much of that is master's
vision?

910
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,800
You know, those are kind of
different realities, but there

911
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,200
is no indication that Muster
wanted to.

912
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:30,160
I mean certainly the idea of of
incorporating as a corporation

913
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:36,440
with the government what I I
cannot imagine Muster have

914
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,320
becoming A501C3.
Well, I I'm not necessarily

915
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,960
talking about about that, but
meeting houses just

916
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,000
infrastructure, right.
I mean, so they.

917
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,920
Did have the priesthood home in
Salt Lake City where they would

918
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,760
meet a temple.
I don't I don't think so.

919
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:56,280
Certainly I don't think a
temple.

920
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:57,840
I don't I don't think that would
have ever happened.

921
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:05,560
I mean, they the reality is you
don't need a temple.

922
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,560
You don't need one.
You don't need one.

923
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,360
I mean, if Joseph Smith can get
sealed down by the river to

924
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,520
Luisa Beeman, certainly you can
too.

925
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:20,720
Like I don't there's no there is
so much precedent for absolutely

926
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,320
the Kirtland like early school
of the prophet's foot like that

927
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,480
was happening.
You know, I mean, do you need a

928
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,040
temple is a big question in
Mormonism generally.

929
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,960
The answer is no historically,
and I think must have recognized

930
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,720
that.
And so most of what was

931
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:36,120
happening was happening in his
home.

932
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,000
So and I mean, especially
because from us or at least, you

933
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,120
know, he got sealed to his wives
in his house under Matthias

934
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,280
Cowley.
So he also in the in an LDS

935
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,880
context had a precedent for not
needing a temple for ordinances.

936
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:52,760
So I don't see him ever thinking
there was kind of a necessity.

937
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,800
He was contented in his home.
Would he have been opposed to

938
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:56,680
it?
I don't know.

939
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,800
I think I, I do think he would
have been concerned with things

940
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,680
being too much of A church
because he was concerned about

941
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:07,760
the direction of Barlow and he
was concerned with he he really

942
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:09,880
believed that they were not the
church.

943
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:16,080
He really believed that.
And I think he also had a close

944
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,400
enough relationship with the
council men who were really

945
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:23,040
opposed, like Lewis Couch would
have absolutely never stood for

946
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,360
it.
And so I think he was too close

947
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,360
to the Councilman and Charles
Zitting would have never.

948
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,960
And so I think, I think he was
too close to those men that

949
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,600
would have kept him in check had
he decided to start making a

950
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,480
church.
Gotcha.

951
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,080
As you read through through
those Diaries, is there?

952
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,400
Do you get a?
Sense of where he falls on

953
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,920
things like one man ISM, that
sort of thing.

954
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,200
Does he ever say, hey, this
could have been one of our

955
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:53,840
downfalls?
Does he ever?

956
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,960
No, so the term one man rule
doesn't isn't really there yet.

957
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,680
He is concerned about Barlow.
He does believe in a council.

958
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,000
He believes in a council.
I mean that is the vision of

959
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,560
fundamentalism.
I mean that's that is the

960
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,960
vision.
If you know, I have.

961
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:12,280
People know this.
I have a quest.

962
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,440
I don't know if ordinations
happened by John Taylor.

963
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,080
I think 1886 revelation
happened.

964
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:19,880
I don't.
No, I don't think he ordained.

965
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,720
Anyone sorry, we cannot agree to
disagree.

966
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,320
I don't think so from John, from
that moment and then the Woolley

967
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,800
Council, the vision of
fundamentalism was a council.

968
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,480
And yes, there was going to be a
president to kind of to ensure

969
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,200
everything works out and to
because, you know, too many

970
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,880
hands in the pot, too many cooks
in the kitchen is can be hard.

971
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,000
And so certainly having a
president of the priesthood

972
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,520
makes sense.
But the vision of fundamentalism

973
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,680
was a council And I, I don't, I
think there was always kind of

974
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:52,120
weariness of one guy ruling the
show.

975
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:59,280
And the reality, the unfortunate
reality is they were right to be

976
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:05,640
weary of that because we have
seen the example in Barlow's

977
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,760
line of what happens.
Yeah.

978
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,760
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's it's fascinating that that

979
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,640
they understood that clear back
then, right that they were they

980
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:22,200
were cognizant the the fact that
there was a a council was not by

981
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,080
accident.
And.

982
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,480
That, that is, is pretty, pretty
telling, I think in a lot of

983
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,880
ways.
So.

984
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,440
Muster muster.
Also, he when he was outlining

985
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,880
the distinction between the
church and the priesthood, he

986
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,120
did trace the idea of a
priesthood council back to

987
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,280
Joseph Smith.
Now is it super grounded in the

988
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,240
historical record?
I think it's a you know, there's

989
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:49,280
some interpretation to be had in
what's going on in Muster's

990
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,280
vision of the Smith Priesthood
council.

991
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,480
I think it's, I think it's a
retrospective look at what Smith

992
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:56,920
was doing.
Of course, people who are

993
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,440
faithful to the idea of a
council, people from a faith

994
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,080
perspective will look at it as
as master did.

995
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:07,360
But it is, I mean, it's also the
case that Joseph Smith always

996
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:13,880
had counselors and like, there
was never A1 dude in Mormonism,

997
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,080
right, Right.
With no oversight.

998
00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:20,880
There was always some kind of
check and balance in Mormonism.

999
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:22,720
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

1000
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,880
OK, I want.
To switch more now to the book

1001
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,160
itself.
What was the?

1002
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:34,240
Hardest part of getting that
thing wrote as you tear into it

1003
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:37,080
and and you get the idea.
OK, I want to do this on Musser.

1004
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,640
What was the the?
The big.

1005
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:44,440
Thing that that caused you the
most heartburn, Well I mean the

1006
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,520
1st.
Hard thing was so all the books.

1007
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,680
So it's a series of books.
They're the Intermorman thought

1008
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:55,320
series, and so there's a book on
a range of people, and all the

1009
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,160
series are the same, that
chapter one is a brief

1010
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,960
biography, and then there's
three chapters on their three

1011
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:04,040
main ideas.
What are Musser's three ideas of

1012
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,200
just three?
And so choosing what are his

1013
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,520
three greatest contributions was
hard.

1014
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:12,960
I ultimately chose priesthood,
polygamy and United Order as his

1015
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,960
kind of three most significant
ideas to the detriment of Adam

1016
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,600
God, which is in there, but it's
not, you know, Sure.

1017
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:25,440
I mean, I think the hardest
thing was realizing that this is

1018
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,080
someone who most people in
Mormon studies have never heard

1019
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,960
of.
Right, this isn't.

1020
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:37,160
Writing a book on Huber J Grant,
people would at least have a

1021
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,240
point of reference for Huber J
Grant.

1022
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,880
Musser is someone who's beloved
by many.

1023
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:44,960
He's someone who is a prophet to
many people.

1024
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:46,520
He is someone who's people's
family.

1025
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,360
He is someone who's the
priesthood leader for people.

1026
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,080
He's the like the figurehead for
so many Mormon movements.

1027
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,000
And yet he's someone that most
people have never heard of.

1028
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:59,680
And so that was challenging to
kind of how do, how, how do you

1029
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,280
tell this story for people
who've never heard of him, but

1030
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,720
also who have no idea what
Mormon fundamentalist history

1031
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,440
is, who think that there's a
straight line from Joseph to

1032
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:13,400
Russell Nelson and that there
aren't kind of alternate ways of

1033
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:18,240
telling Mormon history, notably
that things go awry a range of

1034
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,160
points.
And so, and there's like there's

1035
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,280
a whole, I mean, when you tell
Mormon fundamentals history, as

1036
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:27,720
you know, there's a whole other
cast of characters than than the

1037
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:32,080
LDS history, like who's who's
Nathaniel Baldwin?

1038
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,840
Like who are all like, who are
all of these, who's Nathan

1039
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:37,280
Clark?
Like, who are all of these like

1040
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:41,120
characters that are just a
different set of secondary

1041
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,160
characters than when you tell
the LDS story.

1042
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:44,840
So that was really, that was a
challenge.

1043
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,760
But I mean, the thing that
mattered the most to me is that,

1044
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,120
you know, this isn't a
devotional book.

1045
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:57,200
Certainly I don't believe Messer
was the president of a

1046
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:02,240
priesthood, and yet.
But yet I needed.

1047
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,520
Mormon.
Fundamentalism is so often

1048
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:10,320
brushed off as crazy, and I
needed I needed, I needed people

1049
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:14,160
to take him seriously.
And so I needed to find a way of

1050
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:19,240
ensuring like, this isn't my
guy, I'm a Catholic, but I need

1051
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,640
you to realize that he is
beloved and significant and he

1052
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,960
matters as much to the story of
Mormonism as Heber J Grant,

1053
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,960
believe it or not.
And so trying to figure out how

1054
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,880
to write it in a way that people
would believe me that he is as

1055
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:36,280
important as Heber J Grant.
That was that was the hardest of

1056
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,240
how to strike that balance.
And hopefully I did.

1057
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,360
I mean, I, it certainly doesn't
come across, it probably comes

1058
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:44,240
across as more sympathetic than
people might like.

1059
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:48,800
Definitely.
I mean, I definitely Heber J

1060
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,280
Grant gets thrown under the bus
quite a few times.

1061
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:54,960
But I I mean, that was
definitely the hardest part is

1062
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:57,480
how do I make this not
devotional but also make people

1063
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,360
like him as much as I do?
And that was.

1064
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,000
Probably your biggest fear going
into it as well, right?

1065
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,760
Because like, I can only imagine
what the man must have been like

1066
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:09,720
in real life.
Because as you read about him

1067
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,040
and you learn about him.
You.

1068
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:14,360
Can't help but like the guy,
right?

1069
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,600
I mean, not, not a perfect guy,
right.

1070
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,720
I, that's an unfair standard to
hold anybody to.

1071
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:22,960
But you can't help but like him
a little bit.

1072
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:27,040
And so that must have, that must
have also have been a little bit

1073
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:30,520
of a fear too, right?
Is that you know, how do you do

1074
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:35,600
it justice with with maintaining
that that impartiality, so to

1075
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,400
speak?
Right.

1076
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:41,040
And I mean, Mormon studies is a
field of predominantly by LDS

1077
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:42,360
people.
There are some Community of

1078
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,080
Christ there are, you know, but
it is predominantly LDS.

1079
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:50,200
And the story of Joseph Messer
ultimately is the story of how

1080
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:57,600
the LDS Church is wrong.
Like, right, that's the story.

1081
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:00,240
That's the.
Story like that's that's the

1082
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:04,280
story here is that the LDS
church is out of order and an

1083
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,280
apostasy.
That is the story of Joseph

1084
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,240
Messer.
And so that's also kind of a

1085
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:16,600
challenge of someone who is part
of Mormonism but also, like, is

1086
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:21,000
deeply defiant against it.
And how do you show people that?

1087
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,040
And that's something that I
think a lot of people now in

1088
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:25,600
Mormonism try to grapple with,
is how do I love this

1089
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:27,920
institution that I also like
cannot stand?

1090
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,120
That.
That's an interesting, that's an

1091
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:37,800
interesting take on that because
I think that I think those days

1092
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:44,960
are here, right?
And I think like, I do believe

1093
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:49,360
that we're kind of coming into a
fundamentalist moment almost.

1094
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:55,480
And I see some of the questions
that get asked today in the LDS

1095
01:01:55,480 --> 01:02:00,600
church, and people are a bit
surprised that those questions

1096
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,200
kind of already were answered a
little bit.

1097
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,200
With.
Fundamentalism, right I mean

1098
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,680
look for Mormons, Heavenly
Mother's a big thing, right and

1099
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,480
so when you start saying well
who is she what'd she do well,

1100
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:17,320
if you believe the Adam God
doctrine kind of know right but

1101
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,240
also.
Who are they right?

1102
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,320
Who is she?
Who are they right and and?

1103
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,880
And these are things that I feel
like fundamentalists can can

1104
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:33,600
kind of answer in a way, right?
Like it's one of those those

1105
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,120
conundrums that I think the
church faces now, right?

1106
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:39,000
Like, well, we kind of have the
answers, but if we go back and

1107
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:44,320
look at the answers now, we got
to admit that maybe these guys

1108
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,360
over here who we labeled as
crazy and carnal and devilish

1109
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:50,640
and, and all those other things,
they got the answers to it.

1110
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,640
And, and that becomes even down
to women in the priesthood,

1111
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:56,200
right?
I mean, you follow out the 2nd

1112
01:02:56,200 --> 01:03:00,280
anointing to it's a logical
conclusion and there's, there's

1113
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,920
a lot of stuff going on in there
with, with women in the

1114
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,120
priesthood.
And so a lot of those questions

1115
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,800
I feel like get answered there.
But but that's an interesting

1116
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,800
take and one that I think is
worthy of, of pondering here a

1117
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,920
little bit.
Because certainly I'm a guy who

1118
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,240
loves to look forward for
answers, but sometimes those

1119
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,600
answers are actually behind us
and we gotta kind of stop for a

1120
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:23,120
moment and go where, you know,
where we at.

1121
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,120
Yeah.
And I mean, I think I, I talked

1122
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:30,840
quite a bit about this and I
think it's worth articulating.

1123
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:36,400
Mormonism is not unique in terms
of from a sociological

1124
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,360
standpoint, like it's unique in
terms of it's religious

1125
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,960
doctrines, things like that.
But in terms of like how

1126
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,120
religions operate, it's not
super unique.

1127
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,800
And what I mean by that is
Mormon fundamentalism is having

1128
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,400
a moment right now.
I mentioned to you, I think off

1129
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,560
air that it's an interesting
thing where you read the Journal

1130
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:53,960
of Discourses and you have two
choices.

1131
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,560
Yeah.
Are you leaving or are you

1132
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,120
fundamentalist?
Gotta pick one if you if you're

1133
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:03,520
gonna take Brigham Young
seriously because Brigham Young

1134
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,600
said that the only.
Men who become gods or the sons

1135
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,240
of gods?
Are those who enter into the

1136
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:14,400
principle of plural marriage.
So like he said that are you

1137
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,480
leaving this thing or are you
joining the fundamentalist

1138
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:17,600
movement like you ought to pick
one.

1139
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:23,000
And when I say Mormonism's not
unique is that, and especially

1140
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,400
in the time Muster was living,
Muster lived in a really

1141
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,360
interesting time in that it was
the birth of the evangelical

1142
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:32,920
fundamentalist movement.
It was, I mean, the turn of the

1143
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,240
century is a weird time in that
it's modernity.

1144
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,120
Like we're a modern people now.
What does that mean?

1145
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:40,800
How are you going to be modern
in the modern world?

1146
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:43,880
Is polygamy something that can
exist in the modern world?

1147
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:46,440
How do you do like?
And so for Christian

1148
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,000
evangelicals, the big question
was, are we going to believe in

1149
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:52,480
evolution now?
Do we think the Bible is real

1150
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:53,320
now?
What?

1151
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,880
What are these big questions?
And for a lot of people, a lot

1152
01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:00,640
of people caved to modernity in
the modernist controversy, and a

1153
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:02,600
lot of people doubled down and
became fundamentalist.

1154
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:06,240
And Mormonism is doing the same
thing is that they're trying to

1155
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:08,680
figure out how are we modern?
Are we?

1156
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,040
Going to kind of look.
Ahead and go through the path of

1157
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,720
progress, the grand trek towards
secularism.

1158
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:18,680
Or are we going to double down
and be what we are?

1159
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,040
I mean, Catholicism, my own
tradition, has seen this, and

1160
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:23,840
it's still seeing this.
Right now, we're seeing a

1161
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,680
upswing in traditionalist
expressions of Catholicism.

1162
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:29,800
Of what?
What does it mean to be a

1163
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:34,160
religious person and be modern?
And Mormonism did that in the

1164
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:35,480
time of muster.
And I think it's doing that

1165
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:39,400
again now that younger people
are having to grapple once again

1166
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:44,280
with how do we do this religion
in the year 2024?

1167
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:48,640
And for a lot of people, it is
that question of do we continue

1168
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:54,640
forward in the grand trek toward
secularism, or do we decide to

1169
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,880
turn around?
Right, no.

1170
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:00,800
And and young people are the
ones that are kind of holding

1171
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:04,680
the key.
Now I may edit this part out

1172
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:06,080
later.
I'll have to think about this,

1173
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:13,120
but as of as of today, there
have been count em 12.

1174
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,240
No, no, I think it's closer to
10.

1175
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,320
Let me let me make sure I'm
right here.

1176
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,840
I think it's 10 missionaries
that have reached out to me

1177
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,000
while they're being
missionaries, right?

1178
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,720
And they're they're discovering
all this and they're like, well,

1179
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:31,400
wait, wait a second.
If this isn't right.

1180
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,200
And now everybody in the LDS
church calmed down.

1181
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:37,040
I told them to stop listening to
the podcast and focus on their

1182
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,200
mission but.
I may have.

1183
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,360
Told them to look me up when
they're done but as of right now

1184
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,800
I'm like just stay doing your
mission thing kiddo.

1185
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:48,480
But.
But yeah, there.

1186
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:51,360
That's happening.
There are no more secrets.

1187
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:54,920
And I keep trying to tell folks,
hey, the cat's out of the bag.

1188
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,320
There's nothing that people
can't find now.

1189
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:02,160
And at some level, this, I
believe is, is kind of the, the,

1190
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:05,320
the calling of the time, so to
speak, is to wrestle with this a

1191
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,360
little bit.
But I think I think that's why

1192
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:10,680
your book is so important, to be
honest with you, right?

1193
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:12,560
Because we're not the first ones
to do it.

1194
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:17,040
And I think, I think this is 1
vantage point that we can look

1195
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,600
at and at least take some, some.
Pointers.

1196
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,160
From so to speak.
Yeah.

1197
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:26,720
I mean, I think, and I think
Muster's a kind of good picture

1198
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:30,080
of this because he really is.
I mean.

1199
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:33,320
I think, I think the sentiment
I'm gonna express most

1200
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:40,240
fundamentals feel this, but
Muster was really the 1st to he

1201
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:43,760
doesn't say it this way, but it
is the case that Muster realizes

1202
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:46,400
in 1921 that he doesn't, he
didn't leave the church, the

1203
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,840
church left him.
And that's a different

1204
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:51,320
experience.
And that's something that a lot

1205
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:55,320
of fundamentalists in a in
different words have expressed

1206
01:07:55,760 --> 01:08:00,880
that Muster didn't change,
right.

1207
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:04,160
Muster Muster's living the same
family system his dad did.

1208
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:11,960
Musser's doing what Joseph and
Brigham and John and Wilfred and

1209
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:16,000
Lorenzo all did.
Like he's living the same life

1210
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:18,439
all these people did.
He's doing the same thing all

1211
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:22,040
these people did.
He wasn't the problem.

1212
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:24,399
Something else was the problem,
and it was the institution that

1213
01:08:24,399 --> 01:08:27,240
he loved dearly.
And in some ways that's a

1214
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,319
betrayal that the institution
betrayed him.

1215
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:33,120
Oh it.
It's it's absolutely a betrayal,

1216
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:36,920
right At look, I was an active
LDS guy for about 20 years,

1217
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:41,359
right?
I mean, I worked the program and

1218
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:44,479
in that 20 years you see change,
right?

1219
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:47,399
And and it's not insignificant
change, right.

1220
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:51,240
One of one of the big things
that that I constantly had to

1221
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:54,960
kind of deal with was, oh, it's
the two hour meeting.

1222
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:56,760
You're not happy with the two
hour meeting now.

1223
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:59,080
And I'm like, actually, I was
really a fan of that.

1224
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:03,640
But you know, there's other big
changes that have happened,

1225
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,120
right?
The disavowing of certain

1226
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:13,560
doctrines that that as I became
a Mormon were bedrock to to what

1227
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:16,720
I was joining.
And when that starts to go away,

1228
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:20,000
that's rough.
And then to make it rougher, you

1229
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,200
feel kind of gas lit, right?
And this is where I can identify

1230
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:25,000
with Musser as well.
When they say, well, the church

1231
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:28,240
doesn't change.
Well, doesn't it?

1232
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:29,560
Though I mean.
Because.

1233
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:33,439
Doctrine.
Does policy does right?

1234
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:36,479
Right.
Right, yes, sorry, my bad.

1235
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:40,640
But you know, when, when they go
away from the idea of, you know,

1236
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:47,680
exaltation and redoing the plan
kind of all over again, only at

1237
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,120
a different station.
And that goes away now, right.

1238
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:53,000
There was just an article a year
or two back where where they're

1239
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:54,960
like, well, we're not so sure
about this anymore.

1240
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:56,960
Well, then what are we sure of,
right?

1241
01:09:57,720 --> 01:09:59,360
Yeah, I mean.
That's The thing is like you

1242
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,400
can't, you can't teach people
for 65 years that you need

1243
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:07,160
polygamy to become God and then
get rid of polygamy and also get

1244
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:11,160
rid of the become God part.
Like both.

1245
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:13,520
Like Brigham Young said.
That.

1246
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:18,600
No one becomes God without
polygamy.

1247
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:24,400
Both of those pretty key factors
are gone.

1248
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:30,320
Like Brigham Young vision of the
cosmos is got like Joseph Smith

1249
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:33,720
said that Joseph Smith said that
God has a God.

1250
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:37,560
Joseph said that Joseph said
that absolutely.

1251
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:43,080
They all said God has a God in a
long chain of deity.

1252
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:47,120
Like, that is Mormon doctrine,
right?

1253
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:49,080
Right.
And and.

1254
01:10:49,480 --> 01:10:52,520
See and and then you get the.
Gaslighting effect where they

1255
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:54,840
say well, the church really
doesn't change policy changes

1256
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:57,960
but not doctrine and then when
you point to the doctrine you

1257
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:02,200
get gas lit again and and so I
think that's exactly what

1258
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:06,120
Mormonism is facing now, right
and I also think that we have to

1259
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:09,600
get really serious with our
history here a little bit and

1260
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,200
sort out what is doctrine and
where did things certain

1261
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,040
practices came from and then
really.

1262
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:18,200
Start.
Saying, OK, So what is what does

1263
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:20,920
it mean to be a Mormon, right?
Whether that's a fundamentalist

1264
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,720
person, whether that's someone
in the LDS church, What does

1265
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:25,120
that mean?
And what does that look like?

1266
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:31,920
Can it be codified anymore?
Look, if if I didn't feel this

1267
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:36,520
thing to my core, I am a lazy
person by nature.

1268
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:42,120
And so this idea of going to
church for endless hours and

1269
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:45,560
donating time, I'm like, there's
so many other things I would

1270
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:47,640
love to do.
But I.

1271
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:51,640
Feel at my core, right.
And and so when that, when that

1272
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:57,240
gets gets jostled with, I think
it's, it's, it's and this isn't

1273
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:00,080
the natural outgrowth of it.
Oh.

1274
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:01,880
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, absolutely,

1275
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:06,360
absolutely.
So we're we're getting kind.

1276
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:11,440
Of close on time here a little
bit is there anything Well, let

1277
01:12:11,440 --> 01:12:12,520
me.
Ask a couple.

1278
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:14,680
More questions actually, now
that I think about it.

1279
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:20,400
What's what's your?
What was?

1280
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,240
Something that you discovered in
doing research for the book that

1281
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:27,600
floored YA that.
Floored me.

1282
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:32,880
That you just didn't quite see
coming.

1283
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:39,840
How candid he was in his Diaries
and of course he probably never

1284
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:44,600
in his life imagined a gentile
girl in the year 2023 reading

1285
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:49,600
his Diaries, that probably was
not something a foreseeable part

1286
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:54,360
of his life.
And so, but I, so of course he

1287
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:57,520
was candid, but I was surprised
that he was candid.

1288
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:02,960
I think the most, I mean, I, I
think he said I was surprised

1289
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:06,400
how compelling it was.
Like I've said many times that

1290
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:12,800
if I was LDS and I read Truth
magazine, I wouldn't be LDS

1291
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:15,880
anymore.
Right, I just I.

1292
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:17,320
Wouldn't have been.
I mean, I think the most

1293
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,480
notable, I think about it all
the time is when he's dividing

1294
01:13:20,480 --> 01:13:22,840
out the priesthood existing
outside of the church.

1295
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:25,520
For a lot of LDS people, that
kind of sounds scandalous, but

1296
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,200
the reality is what happens
first, the restoration of the

1297
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:30,200
priesthood or the organization
of the church?

1298
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:34,800
It's the restoration of the
priesthood happens first.

1299
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,360
Yeah.
And therefore it can exist

1300
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:40,840
without a church and.
Therefore.

1301
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:46,520
It still can.
And that was, that was wild to

1302
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:48,560
me when I first read him
articulate that.

1303
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:50,920
And I was like, oh, that's like
a, that's a good point.

1304
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:54,680
And so I, I think I was
surprised by how compelling I

1305
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:58,360
found it.
I think one of the really

1306
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:02,920
interesting things as well, you
know, one of the the something

1307
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:06,000
that a lot of people talk about
is how the LDS Church has kind

1308
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:10,440
of shifted what is kind of the
most significant aspect of the

1309
01:14:10,440 --> 01:14:12,640
faith.
And in the 20th century, things

1310
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:15,200
like the first vision become
real, like really important.

1311
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:18,120
The Book of Mormon takes kind of
more central stage.

1312
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:21,360
And I did find it really
interesting how little Joseph

1313
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:25,120
Messer talks about either of
those two things, particularly,

1314
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:28,000
particularly the Book of Mormon.
Yeah, I was surprised that he

1315
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,240
doesn't talk about it very much.
Do you think?

1316
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:35,280
That maybe that's an outgrowth
of just having been raised with

1317
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:40,560
it for so long.
Maybe, but like his pamphlets

1318
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:43,440
never really talk about it.
OK, like it's a.

1319
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:45,560
Lot like he really focuses on
the Doctrine Covenants.

1320
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:49,720
Certainly he really focuses on
the on the lecture on the

1321
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:51,920
journal discourses, the the
words of the prophets.

1322
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:56,320
But I was surprised, I was
surprised about it until I

1323
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:00,320
talked to people who really kind
of have written about the

1324
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,680
development of how Mormonism
presents itself in the 20th

1325
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:05,840
century.
And it really is in the 20th

1326
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:08,120
century that we start to see the
first vision really take a

1327
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:13,120
central stage as a primary
significant thing, and the Book

1328
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:15,240
of Mormon becomes really
important.

1329
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:17,280
I mean, it was always important,
obviously, but it because it

1330
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:20,040
takes really kind of new
significance in the 20th

1331
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:23,040
century.
And so.

1332
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:24,680
It should.
In hindsight, it shouldn't have

1333
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:27,640
been surprising, but I was
initially kind of interested in

1334
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:31,200
the fact that that was never
kind of the cornerstone of his

1335
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:32,720
faith.
The cornerstone of his faith was

1336
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:35,760
Joseph Smith.
It wasn't the Book of Mormon.

1337
01:15:36,480 --> 01:15:38,520
Gotcha.
And I mean, those two are, you

1338
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:40,720
know, the what makes Joseph
Smith important.

1339
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:42,520
But the Book of Mormon, the Book
of Mormon's important because

1340
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:44,200
the prophet receives it.
You know, they're, they're

1341
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,680
running the same in a lot of
ways, but I was surprised that

1342
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:49,120
it's not referenced.
Interesting.

1343
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:52,560
Interesting.
Yeah.

1344
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:55,720
That's that's fascinating.
Yeah.

1345
01:15:55,720 --> 01:16:02,120
The only thing I could point to
on that is it was kind of wasn't

1346
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:04,200
his fight though, right?
He wasn't fighting.

1347
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:07,680
He wasn't fighting people who
were critics of the Book of

1348
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:09,440
Mormon.
He was fighting people who were

1349
01:16:09,440 --> 01:16:11,160
critics.
Of.

1350
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:13,880
Of other doctrine.
Yeah, I just.

1351
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,800
I just looked at the my the
index for my book.

1352
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:20,640
There's not, I don't think
there's any reference to the

1353
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:22,040
Book of Mormon.
Wow.

1354
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,440
I think that's OK.
I think, I think that gives us a

1355
01:16:26,440 --> 01:16:31,960
peek into what, into what was on
his mind at the time, right?

1356
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:33,960
I mean.
He's not.

1357
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:36,760
About trying to convince people
that the Book of Mormon is true.

1358
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:40,200
He's trying to convince people
that these old things the church

1359
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:43,560
are giving up are are important.
He's also, I mean.

1360
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:47,680
He's also distinctly not a
missionary to non Mormons.

1361
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:50,960
Like he's he's not.
He's not trying to convince me

1362
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:53,880
of Mormon fundamentals, and he's
trying to convince you of Mormon

1363
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:56,040
fundamentalism.
Like he assumes that if you're

1364
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:59,280
reading Truth magazine, you're
already sold on the Restoration.

1365
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:04,520
And I think that is the reality.
And I mean, I think This is why

1366
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:07,880
ultimately a lot of the groups
that end up forming around him

1367
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:10,480
do view the LDS Church as the
missionary arm of the

1368
01:17:10,480 --> 01:17:12,920
fundamentalist movement, that
you have to get into that first

1369
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:15,760
before you can jump to
fundamentalism.

1370
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,920
It doesn't make sense.
Like it makes no sense to send a

1371
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:20,240
fundamentalist missionary to my
house.

1372
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:25,400
Like I'm I have to, I gotta
believe in the basics first.

1373
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:27,960
And so there is something to be
said about that.

1374
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:31,160
He he assumes you believe in the
Book of Mormon if you're in it.

1375
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:35,120
Right, right.
No, that makes sense.

1376
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:41,080
But I guess he doesn't he all he
does he, you know, he goes to

1377
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:43,760
his church meetings, he talks
about going to Sunday school, he

1378
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:45,680
talks about going to all of his
church meetings.

1379
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:51,080
He doesn't really talk about
like family prayer or scripture

1380
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:52,360
study.
A lot of those kind of like

1381
01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:55,400
things that we imagine a the
daily life of Mormon people.

1382
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:56,640
He really doesn't talk about
that.

1383
01:17:57,320 --> 01:17:59,800
But he is going to a lot of
church during the week like he's

1384
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:03,920
always gone from home.
Right, right.

1385
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:08,560
Which would make it tough to to
do that if you're gone that

1386
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:11,520
often.
And.

1387
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:14,040
Finally, this one What's?
His.

1388
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:20,440
Legacy, I mean, his legacy is.
The Apostolic United Brethren,

1389
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:26,760
the single largest cohesive
movement in the Intermountain

1390
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:31,240
West.
I think that's his legacy.

1391
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:34,080
I think his legacy is, is the
AB.

1392
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:37,840
And I know that, you know, for
other groups, other groups love

1393
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:38,800
him.
Don't get me wrong.

1394
01:18:40,480 --> 01:18:42,760
I realize that.
But when I think of, you know,

1395
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:45,080
his legacy is old.
I mean, he wanted his legacy to

1396
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:47,360
be all red.
Like he he chose that.

1397
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:51,360
He pointed to it like that's
that is the reality is we don't

1398
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:55,680
have to guess who he want, who
he like imagined his legacy to

1399
01:18:55,680 --> 01:18:58,680
be left with.
He he picked the guy he picked

1400
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:00,520
it's all red.
It's ruling all red.

1401
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:02,600
We know the answer to this
question.

1402
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:06,840
He chose his successor.
And that's so rare in religion

1403
01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:08,680
generally.
I mean, Joseph Smith didn't do

1404
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:13,840
that, but we have a concrete
example of a fundamentalist

1405
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:16,720
leader who has chosen his
successor and it was ruling all

1406
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:19,640
red.
Now, we can disagree, but then

1407
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:21,040
you're disagreeing with Muster's
ordination.

1408
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:21,960
You're disagreeing with his
choice.

1409
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:24,360
And you're welcome to do that,
of course.

1410
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:27,560
But the answer is, is he, he
told you who his legacy was and

1411
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,920
it was ruling all red.
And therefore it's the Apostolic

1412
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:34,840
United Brethren and therefore
also every group that breaks off

1413
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:38,760
from that while recognizing
that, you know, of course, many

1414
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:42,160
groups also acknowledge him as a
significant priesthood authority

1415
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:46,560
leader in the 20th century.
But I think his his legacy is

1416
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:50,320
the largest cohesive branch of
the fundamentalist movement,

1417
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:52,880
which is there's something to be
said about that.

1418
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:57,400
There's something to be said
about about the fact that his,

1419
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:02,320
and certainly there are break
offs of the AUBAUB is not.

1420
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,720
You know, known for.
Not having that, certainly

1421
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:10,600
there's different expressions
of, you know, different AUB

1422
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:14,600
groups or different branches of
AB.

1423
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:18,440
I don't know, you know, there
there's been contestation

1424
01:20:18,440 --> 01:20:21,520
certainly, I guess that's what I
meant to say There's there's

1425
01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:26,000
been contestation over authority
and different break offs.

1426
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:32,240
But the AUB is not nothing in
terms of size.

1427
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:35,640
No, they're.
Yeah, they're, they're good size

1428
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:37,760
for sure.
I mean, I think the biggest

1429
01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:41,160
operating one still so.
And people.

1430
01:20:41,480 --> 01:20:45,240
And people, I mean, the FLDS was
the biggest for a while, but

1431
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:48,960
that didn't I mean.
We don't know how that works out

1432
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:51,360
conditions, right?
I mean like, you know.

1433
01:20:51,440 --> 01:20:54,480
How that turned out, Yeah.
I mean, yeah, it was big.

1434
01:20:54,480 --> 01:20:59,240
But it also like you had to live
under, under Warren.

1435
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:02,760
And so I mean, I, yeah, I think
his legacy is successful.

1436
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:08,200
I mean, the other thing is his
legacy is one that I don't hear

1437
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:09,760
a lot of.
I don't hear people from any

1438
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:12,200
group really hate him.
And that's.

1439
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:16,520
And I mean get one member from
every fundamentalist group and

1440
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:19,640
have them like someone from
their past.

1441
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:22,280
All of them have a shared sense
of we like them.

1442
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:26,920
Like that doesn't happen.
That just doesn't happen, I

1443
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:28,880
mean.
And especially like, you hear,

1444
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:32,600
I, you know, I have heard former
FLDS say like, he signed the

1445
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:34,600
document, you know, he's, he
conceded.

1446
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:37,680
That's a very different vibe
than people in the AUB being

1447
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:41,320
like Barlow did placement merit
like it's there's a different

1448
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:43,960
kind of level of why we wouldn't
like certain people.

1449
01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:49,000
And Muster is pretty much well
loved or at least respected.

1450
01:21:49,360 --> 01:21:53,400
And in the same way is you can
disagree with the ordination,

1451
01:21:53,400 --> 01:21:57,240
but I don't know people that
dislike ruling all red.

1452
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:00,880
Right.
No, no, I like, like.

1453
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:05,960
Yeah, you can disagree with the
ordination, but people like the

1454
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:08,800
guy.
I had a guy on the on the

1455
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:17,680
podcast who knew him personally
as a young man and sounds again

1456
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:19,760
hard to find anyone that
disliked him.

1457
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:22,520
Just what it was.
Yep, and.

1458
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:28,320
That's, I mean, what a legacy
that you die and it doesn't

1459
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:30,560
matter if people didn't believe
you were the priesthood leader,

1460
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:34,800
but people still like you.
Right from a range.

1461
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:37,880
Of groups, I mean, like the
Kingston's, like members of the

1462
01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:40,920
Kingston group like him, members
of the Lebaron community like

1463
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:46,480
him, members of Centennial Park
like him, independents like him.

1464
01:22:46,480 --> 01:22:50,680
Like, goodness, you get all
those people to agree on one

1465
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:52,440
guy.
Like, let's talk about who that

1466
01:22:52,440 --> 01:22:55,560
guy is, right?
Right, absolutely.

1467
01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:02,080
Do you do you see?
Do you see?

1468
01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:08,880
Musser's importance getting
bigger, I guess, as time goes

1469
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:12,240
along.
Well, I think one of the

1470
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:17,120
difficulties is for so long the
primary sources weren't

1471
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:19,000
available.
People couldn't, you know, for a

1472
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:22,400
long time there wasn't a lot of
access to his writings.

1473
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:26,400
And now at the age of the
Internet with various things,

1474
01:23:26,400 --> 01:23:30,200
people can read about him.
And so I do think that as people

1475
01:23:30,200 --> 01:23:32,200
are becoming more interested in
fundamentalist history, as

1476
01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:36,160
people are reading more
generally about the movement, I

1477
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:41,480
do think that there will be a up
growth, an upswing in interest

1478
01:23:41,480 --> 01:23:44,320
in his life and his legacy.
And I mean, I think that's only

1479
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:46,840
to the benefit of the
fundamentalist movement to see,

1480
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:48,560
I mean, people like their
history.

1481
01:23:48,560 --> 01:23:50,320
People like seeing where they
came from.

1482
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:55,400
And and so I, I think that this
is AI mean I'm lucky in that

1483
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:57,320
it's a perfect time to have a
book titled A Mormon

1484
01:23:57,320 --> 01:24:00,400
fundamentalist.
Thanks like given to net, given

1485
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:01,960
to Netflix.
It's been a great, it's been a

1486
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:07,600
great run.
But I think it is, I, I think

1487
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:10,760
now is a great time for people
to who are interested in the

1488
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:12,120
movement.
And so I do think that there's

1489
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:15,440
going to be renewed interest in
who he was as people realize

1490
01:24:15,440 --> 01:24:17,760
that.
I mean that shocking thing that

1491
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:20,120
people think Mormon
fundamentalism begins with

1492
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:22,360
Warren Jeffs.
And then?

1493
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:24,880
They learn it doesn't, they want
to know who it is.

1494
01:24:24,880 --> 01:24:26,960
And so I, I have seen kind of
interest.

1495
01:24:28,480 --> 01:24:31,160
I mean, I even, I took a group
of people down to Short Creek on

1496
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:36,040
a tour and like, I had students
of mine buy my book.

1497
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:37,520
And I don't think it was just
because of me.

1498
01:24:37,520 --> 01:24:39,520
Like they got extra credit for
being on the trip.

1499
01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:43,360
They didn't have to buy my book
and just kind of realizing like,

1500
01:24:43,440 --> 01:24:45,760
oh.
Where does?

1501
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:48,760
Modern polygamy come from why
are people doing this?

1502
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:52,040
Who are these people?
And so I think it's AI think

1503
01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:54,040
it's an interesting time for
people to learn about the

1504
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:55,440
movement.
Why?

1505
01:24:55,440 --> 01:24:58,280
Why do you think the?
There's there's renewed interest

1506
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:01,160
in the movement, I mean.
It.

1507
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:05,320
Seems to be that the more
modernity would creep in, the

1508
01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:09,120
more we would move away from
this right, so to speak.

1509
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:11,520
People like.
Spectacle, though.

1510
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:14,440
That's true.
And what's?

1511
01:25:14,480 --> 01:25:21,920
More spectacular than polygamy.
I mean, people also like knowing

1512
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:24,080
about people's sex lives.
Come on.

1513
01:25:24,480 --> 01:25:27,400
People are people are nosy.
People are nosy.

1514
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:30,320
People are.
Nosy people are nosy.

1515
01:25:30,320 --> 01:25:33,480
And we also like spectacle.
I mean, why do humans slow down

1516
01:25:33,480 --> 01:25:35,640
at car crashes?
People are nosy and they want to

1517
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:37,160
see, they want to see what's
going on.

1518
01:25:38,440 --> 01:25:41,240
And I mean, there have been,
there have just been so many.

1519
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:44,800
How many Netflix specials are
there about Mormons and like?

1520
01:25:46,440 --> 01:25:48,840
And about Mormon.
Mormon fundamentalism and like

1521
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:52,520
escaping polygamy is on TV and
like, and like sister wives,

1522
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:56,240
like everyone is interested in
polygamy.

1523
01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:57,840
Everyone's interested in
polygamy.

1524
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:01,800
And then I when people Google
it, they're like, wait, there's

1525
01:26:01,800 --> 01:26:07,160
more to this story than just
than just sister wives Where?

1526
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:10,640
I mean, I remember, I remember
when I first watched Sister

1527
01:26:10,640 --> 01:26:12,680
Wives, I googled what religion
they were.

1528
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:16,800
Like years ago.
Years ago, before I even knew

1529
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:19,160
what a Mormon was.
What is this?

1530
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:24,000
And so, and I mean, now I now I
definitely know what a Mormon

1531
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:28,000
is, but yeah, I remember
Googling like, what are who are

1532
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:29,640
they?
Why do they, what's going on at

1533
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:32,840
this point?
Yeah, people are.

1534
01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:34,840
People are interested in people
who aren't like them.

1535
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:39,200
No, that's, that's true.
I, I didn't even think about

1536
01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:45,840
that, but I gotta probably, I
worked with a guy for years

1537
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:47,840
who's not a Mormon of any
stripe.

1538
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:53,600
And when he found out I was a
polygamist, he's like, what's

1539
01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:55,760
that like?
Dave, what's it, What's it like?

1540
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:59,280
And I was like, OK, get ready,
'cause I'm gonna blow your mind.

1541
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:02,760
You ready?
It's like being married twice

1542
01:27:03,480 --> 01:27:05,640
and he was just let down.
So.

1543
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:09,480
But yeah, no, there there is
something to be said for the

1544
01:27:09,480 --> 01:27:13,080
spectacle end of things, but
where can people find the book?

1545
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:17,480
I, I, there was a funny moment.
My, my fiance is, you know, not

1546
01:27:17,480 --> 01:27:20,000
Mormon.
He's an Anglican priest.

1547
01:27:20,120 --> 01:27:24,680
And he came to visit most
recently and we went to lunch

1548
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:27,600
with a fundamentalist family
that was so kind to come and

1549
01:27:27,600 --> 01:27:31,880
talk to my students about their
life for me, just a great

1550
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:35,280
family.
And before we went to before we

1551
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:40,760
went to lunch, I told my fiance
what his profession is split.

1552
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:42,560
It's the Colton Winder and his
family.

1553
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:45,960
I don't know if you know them,
they're great.

1554
01:27:46,040 --> 01:27:55,800
And Colton is a a compounding
pharmacist, which is he makes

1555
01:27:56,680 --> 01:28:02,560
medication just out of thin air.
Like he just it's wild.

1556
01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:05,200
Like what is compound pharmacy?
What's going on?

1557
01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:09,560
I mean, he was so generous.
He he helps like he made my dogs

1558
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:12,000
chemotherapy when she got, I
mean, he's just, they're such a

1559
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:15,880
great family.
But I told my fiance I was like,

1560
01:28:16,240 --> 01:28:17,600
we're going to go to lunch with
his family.

1561
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:19,880
I have to talk to my students.
It's great.

1562
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:22,520
There's his two wives.
They're wonderful.

1563
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:26,400
And he's a compounding
pharmacist and my fiancee

1564
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:29,400
Googled compounding pharmacist
and we both kind of read what

1565
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:31,520
that is.
And he was like, well, this is

1566
01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:33,640
what I want to ask him about.
This is crazy.

1567
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:38,680
Like making Medicaid.
Like he, he makes chemotherapy

1568
01:28:38,920 --> 01:28:42,320
and like we're reading like he
makes this eye medication that

1569
01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:45,200
you inject into your eye.
Like what's going on?

1570
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:47,040
And so it was so funny that we
were sitting there and he's

1571
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:48,560
like, this is what I care of.
Like what?

1572
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:50,280
This what?
And so it's.

1573
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:52,320
Like all of a sudden, the fact
that it was like polygamy, he

1574
01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:54,920
was like, well, this is the,
this is the crucial thing right

1575
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:58,360
now is what is this phenomenon,
right?

1576
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:00,040
Yeah.
And so that's.

1577
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:02,080
Also kind of a funny.
Thing, but like, suddenly the

1578
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:04,520
polygamy was not the most
interesting thing about it,

1579
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:05,680
right?
Yeah.

1580
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:09,120
Yeah, no, I it.
It's been hard to tell people

1581
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:12,880
from time to time that, you
know, really, with the, with the

1582
01:29:12,880 --> 01:29:17,040
exception of of I have two
wives, my house probably looks a

1583
01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:21,760
lot like yours, right?
I mean, there's it's not I, I

1584
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:24,640
hate to burst people's bubbles,
but it's not, you know, the

1585
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:26,320
illicit thing they want it to
be.

1586
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:28,520
I don't know, I don't know what
to say.

1587
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:33,000
But anyway, well, good stuff.
Where can people find the book?

1588
01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:36,880
I recommend getting it at
Benchmark Books since they

1589
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:40,120
little ship, but just to support
them.

1590
01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:43,000
They sell a lot of
fundamentalist books so and

1591
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:44,920
they're a great independent
booksellers.

1592
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:46,360
So I highly recommend supporting
them.

1593
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:49,080
Brian Buchanan works there.
He's who I'm doing the Diaries

1594
01:29:49,080 --> 01:29:51,520
with.
You can get it on Amazon.

1595
01:29:52,120 --> 01:29:54,200
There's a Kindle version if
you'd like that too.

1596
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:57,120
But I do recommend Benchmark.
You can also get it on like

1597
01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:01,080
walmart.com.
You can get anywhere anywhere

1598
01:30:01,080 --> 01:30:03,200
books are sold.
Barnes and Noble has it

1599
01:30:03,320 --> 01:30:06,680
apparently on the Internet.
But I would like, can I read you

1600
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:09,440
a poem, a little bit of a poem,
please.

1601
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:12,800
So it's six stanzas, but I'm
just going to read you the last

1602
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:14,560
three because they're my they're
my favorite.

1603
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:20,640
It was written in 1944 by a man
named Deacon Jarby I.

1604
01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:23,040
Don't know.
Maybe someone listening is

1605
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:24,800
related to him, who knows, But
it was.

1606
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:29,640
It's a poem written about Joseph
Muster, and I think I put it in

1607
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:34,040
the book as kind of a way to
shine a light on how beloved he

1608
01:30:34,040 --> 01:30:37,640
was 'cause there's, it's hard to
really wrap people's head around

1609
01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:39,640
how much he was loved.
So it's a long poem, and I'm

1610
01:30:39,640 --> 01:30:41,720
gonna read the last three
stanzas.

1611
01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:46,320
So we hope he stays with us for
a long time to come.

1612
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:50,560
But when he goes on to the glory
of the sun, there'll be Joseph

1613
01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:54,760
and Hiram, Brigham and John to
welcome him home to the place he

1614
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:57,520
has won.
The Lord will receive him and

1615
01:30:57,520 --> 01:31:01,800
say to him then well done, good
and faithful brother JWM.

1616
01:31:02,360 --> 01:31:05,720
They'll all crowd around him and
close to the throne the torch

1617
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:08,120
he'd held high when to him it
was thrown.

1618
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:11,960
He'd never reviled those who
sought his downfall, but he kept

1619
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:15,440
his eyes straight and ignored
one and all who tried to

1620
01:31:15,440 --> 01:31:19,160
persuade him to desert what to
them was the wrong path to take.

1621
01:31:19,320 --> 01:31:22,600
That's JWM.
He's loved by the faithful,

1622
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:25,680
despised by the false.
He's human, so he has his

1623
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:28,920
virtues and faults.
When his life's page is written,

1624
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:32,480
we're sure that you'll find his
faults will be minute, his

1625
01:31:32,480 --> 01:31:35,280
virtues sublime.
For his faith in the priesthood,

1626
01:31:35,360 --> 01:31:39,160
we'll all say Amen.
A true gospel champion is JWM.

1627
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:45,720
Wow.
You know, that's the guy that is

1628
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:46,200
the.
Guy.

1629
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:52,600
And I asked.
You a few minutes ago what was

1630
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:59,680
his legacy certainly when you
talk about Joseph Smith, I can

1631
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:04,160
tell you what his legacy was on
a personal level, right as a 13

1632
01:32:04,160 --> 01:32:06,160
year old boy whose dad passes
away.

1633
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:08,760
I don't know what happens to my
dad.

1634
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:13,240
I have a minister who's a well
meaning minister.

1635
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:16,800
This is not a slam, but he under
he he described it to me as he

1636
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:20,920
understood it right that unless
he said, you know, I accept

1637
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:23,880
Jesus on as my savior on his
deathbed, he's lost.

1638
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:28,160
So for me.
Joseph's legacy is no.

1639
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:29,960
No, no, no, no, no, no, no
these.

1640
01:32:29,960 --> 01:32:35,560
Ties are deeper and God, God is
mindful of all his children.

1641
01:32:36,640 --> 01:32:43,200
Likewise with Musser.
For me personally, his legacy is

1642
01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:45,120
what's just in the other room,
right?

1643
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:50,280
It's, it's a chance to live a
life that quite frankly, I never

1644
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:54,480
even thought about, right, but
has brought me exquisite joy and

1645
01:32:54,480 --> 01:32:58,000
at times exquisite pain, right?
I've had one of these collapse.

1646
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:01,840
I know what that's like.
But it's because of men and men

1647
01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:07,920
like him, John W Taylor, Howie,
those guys who who gave it all,

1648
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:11,320
who said, you know what,
consequences be damned, we're

1649
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:15,640
gonna do this come hell or high
water 'cause we feel like God's

1650
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:18,400
told us to do it.
And I think.

1651
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:20,760
That's the legacy, right, At
least from a faithful

1652
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:23,640
perspective.
My perspective will will be a

1653
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:28,280
little bit different, but but to
me, that's the legacy is that he

1654
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:32,840
he really is kind of the grand
pappy of us all in one form or

1655
01:33:32,840 --> 01:33:36,240
another.
And at the end of the day, that

1656
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:38,760
that has a lot, a lot of weight,
but.

1657
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:43,720
Yeah, well.
Christina, I hope.

1658
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:48,760
I hope my story, the story I
told of him, hope people who

1659
01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:53,240
love him feel like I did right
by his legacy and by him.

1660
01:33:54,520 --> 01:33:56,840
I think.
So I've I've I've been able to

1661
01:33:56,840 --> 01:34:00,280
read the book and it was done.
And and.

1662
01:34:00,560 --> 01:34:04,000
I'll say this, by and large, for
your work, there's a reason.

1663
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:07,400
Not that it should matter, but I
mean, there's a reason I respect

1664
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:10,080
the hell out of what you do.
And that's because I feel like

1665
01:34:10,920 --> 01:34:13,640
you're, you're you're not gonna
paint us.

1666
01:34:14,320 --> 01:34:17,360
Horrible.
You're gonna be truthful and

1667
01:34:17,360 --> 01:34:20,880
you're gonna show the warts and
all and as well as the good.

1668
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:23,240
And that's, that's all anybody
can ask for.

1669
01:34:23,480 --> 01:34:28,120
So, and I feel like you did the
same thing with, with Musser

1670
01:34:28,120 --> 01:34:31,360
here.
So and, and quite frankly, we

1671
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:34,280
need these books as a people.
For so long we've, we've been

1672
01:34:34,280 --> 01:34:37,040
left to our own devices in the
wilderness, so to speak.

1673
01:34:37,440 --> 01:34:40,560
And there's no one that's
really, you know, there's been a

1674
01:34:40,560 --> 01:34:46,520
lot of oral tradition, a few
notes and Diaries, but that's

1675
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:50,400
changing with, with your work,
the work that Michael Ness is

1676
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:53,160
engaged in.
I, I, you know, a couple other

1677
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:55,000
folks.
I, I feel like those tables are

1678
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:57,720
turning and, and I'm super
excited for it.

1679
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:01,480
But anyway, thank you so much
for being here.

1680
01:35:02,320 --> 01:35:04,200
Thanks so much, I appreciate it.
Enjoy.

1681
01:35:04,200 --> 01:35:06,160
Canada, hey.
Thanks.

1682
01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:09,440
I'll try, yeah.
Yeah, you like hockey.

1683
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:11,960
I do.
I do.

1684
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:13,840
Well, that's.
Good, because you'll get a lot

1685
01:35:13,840 --> 01:35:15,560
of it.
So awesome.

1686
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:16,640
Thanks again, Christina.