Episode #131: Mormon Lore & Stories W/Christopher Blythe (Host of the Angels & Seerstones Podcast)

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When you look at any society,
one of the things that binds

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those societies together are
stories.

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It's been that way since man
first gathered around a fire and

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talked with other people.
Not only do those stories bind

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us together, they inform us and
newcomers to the society what

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that particular society is all
about.

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Today on the podcast I have
Christopher Vlive on to talk

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about Mormon lore and stories.
Now Christopher has a podcast

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named Angels and Seer Stones
that dives into the subject and

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is one of my favorite podcast.
During our conversation we talk

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about the importance of stories
to society today, why it is we

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find a reluctance to talk about
those stories.

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I end up sharing a very personal
story of my own and even end up

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exploring the darker side of
stories in lore by talking about

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the Chad and Lori Daybell
incident.

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That and more on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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So a few weeks back I told you
about a new online merch store I

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would let you know as soon as

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that was up and running.
Well, after a few weeks of

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working on designs and testing
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to launch.
So if you go to

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mormonrenegade.com and click on
the Renegade supply button in

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the top right of the landing
page, or click the link in this

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episode's show notes, you'll see
that we have 16 items right now

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We have shirts, hats, bags, cups

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a couple other designs that I
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Now this is just the beginning.
In the coming weeks, more

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designs and styles will be
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Now all the proceeds I get from
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into the podcast, so head on
over to mormonrenegade.com and

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press the Renegade supply button
or click the link in this

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episode.
Show notes and get yours today.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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So up until now the podcast has
really been a one man show.

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Well, as I've gotten busier,
it's been harder and harder for

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me to get everything done that I
need to do.

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So starting today Mason Vogel is
going to be joining me on the

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podcast.
Go ahead and say hi Mason.

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Hello everyone.
Thanks for having me on Dave.

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I'm really happy to be here,
dude.

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I'm super excited that you're
here.

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Mason will be helping me by
controlling all the tech as well

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as helping out with some of the
editing.

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All right, so let's go ahead and
let's just jump right into the

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episode here.
Chris, what's going on, man?

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How are you?
Great to be here.

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Dude, I'm so happy to have you
on.

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I gotta tell you what I am a fan
of of Mormons getting, you know,

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kind of more vocal, right.
I don't care if that's LDS

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folks.
I don't care if that's that's

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fundamentalist.
I'm just, I'm excited because

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quite frankly, we, I always feel
like we need to be a little more

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forward facing on this stuff.
Right as because like

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Mormonism's kind of weird,
right?

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I remember when when I received
my testimony of the Book of

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Mormon, I remember I was like, I
don't really want to be a Mormon

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because you know, there there's
so much in there as a Mormon

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that that has has some baggage
and stuff.

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And so anytime I see someone
like yourself that that jumps

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online and is willing to put
themselves out there, I just

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think it's a great, great thing.
What was the name of your

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podcast for everybody so
everyone can hear it?

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Angels and seer stones.
Dude, that is that is a cool

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name.
That is a cool name.

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What?
What was the impetus behind

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this?
The name is just because it

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represents the peculiar right.
This is the 2 two sides kind of

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folk magic and supernatural
experiences that people might

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raise their eyebrows about.
You know we've Christine and I

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have wanted to do a podcast for
a really long time.

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I think it was it was probably
it was a 4th of July.

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We were doing a long walk in
Provo to get to the to the

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parade and we were brainstorming
things as we went and I said you

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know we need to start a podcast
named Angels and Seer Stones and

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I started sketching out some
ideas and then we put it on hold

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for several years.
And then this past summer we we

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had a lot of time around a
house.

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We were with someone who was
going to pass away coming up.

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And I don't know if you've had
that experience, but it means

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there's a lot of time and we
just said let's let's go for it,

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let's do something.
And we wrote a few episodes and

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it's pretty, pretty incredible.
You know, we were and in the

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beginning we were excited that
we'd have 100 listeners and now

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we're at 7000.
So it's a, it's a fun thing and

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it feels good to be able to
share ideas.

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And, you know, Christine and I
both are professional

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folklorists.
So we write these articles for

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academic audiences and they get
1000 reads across their

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lifespan.
And now we, you know, and we

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spent six months putting on an
article and now you can put out

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a video that shares ideas and it
comes to its audience the next

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day.
I mean, it's wonderful.

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Yeah you I I've listened to some
like one of my favorites was was

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the episode you did on and I'm
gonna try to remember how it was

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phrased.
I might get this wrong but pre

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birth experiences.
Yeah.

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And and do that.
Yeah, that one resonated me,

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resonated with me so much
because I'm a guy.

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Me, me and me and my wife Amber.
We adopted a set of twins 18

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years ago now and we we had some
incredible experiences and and

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as you were going through some
of that, I mean it just

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resonated with me incredibly.
And so that's the kind of stuff

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you broach, right.
And and some of it.

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And and correct me if I'm wrong,
this would kind of you kind of

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like look at old Mormon lore,
for lack of a better word,

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right.
And you kind of look at that

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What, what was the impetus for
that?

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What you look at, you know, this
is, this is what I do.

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So I teach classes at Brigham
Young University.

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I teach contemporary legends.
I have a class called Myth,

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Legend of Folk Tales.
And then I have an introduction

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of folklore class and an
American folklore class.

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And every one of these we have,
you know, 6 lectures or so just

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on latter day.
St. folklore and students share

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stories.
And you know, what I really

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found as a folklorist is a lot
of the stuff I think is old 19th

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century people don't talk about
anymore.

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And if they do, they talk about
hush tones.

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Well, I think that's kind of
true.

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But people still have these
stories, right?

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People still have miraculous
experiences.

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They've heard them.
They're from their mom or their

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grandma or their missions, and
they talk about them, but they

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don't talk about them at church,
right?

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They talk about them at home,
around a campfire, when they're

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when they're hanging out with a
friend.

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You know, all sorts of different
scenarios.

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Maybe you just talk with your
kids about it.

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And that to me is really what
being a latter day saying it's

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about, right?
There's this official side of

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our faith and there's also the
side that we consider sacred and

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we keep it in small circles.
And so yeah, I love that sort of

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thing, whether it's pre birth
narratives or dream telling or

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you know, even visions, right?
All of these are or you know, I

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have a lot of episodes on
apparitions in the temple.

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These are things people claim to
have and because we're careful

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who we tell them, a scholar
could just assume these stories

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dried out, right?
We haven't, we haven't had a

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revelation for 100 years sort of
thing.

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But I think once you talk to
people on the ground, you find

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out this is a vibrant faith
that's still really charismatic.

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Maybe not as much as eighteen
third, right?

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But still going on.
You know, and and I think as a

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guy who was never a Mormon at
all, right, I'm the first Mormon

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on either side of my family.
One of the things that one of

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the things that drew me to to
being a Mormon was was this idea

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of of no, no, no.
The these experiences that you

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read about in in ancient
scripture, they're still here,

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right.
And and you can still have some

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of those, you know and and in
some ways Chris, I feel like if

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we're not having those
encounters with the divine a

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little bit, we're kind of
missing out on on more the some

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of the cooler parts of
Mormonism.

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Absolutely.
You know, I think sometimes I

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meet lottery Saints who don't
believe in the supernatural like

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I do.
And I think, gosh, I have more

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in common with a Pentecostal or
a Roman Catholic than this guy

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who doesn't believe in the sort
of supernatural elements of the

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faith.
And you know, so I I I think

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that's just, that's right on.
You know, both my wife and I are

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converts too, and we both serve
missions and the life of seeking

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an encounter with the divine is
why we're Latter Day Saints as

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well.
So that speaks to me.

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And I think I know that there's
broad audience in the show, but

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I think right now the LBS Church
has never been more active in

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pronouncing personal revelation
revelations from Prophets.

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You know we had a President
Holland give a talk at general

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conference in which he very
clearly implied he had a near

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death experience in the past
couple years and talked about

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that.
I I think we we've maybe from

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Wilford Woodruff.
Wilford Woodruff talked about

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miracles constantly.
I don't know from Lorenzo Snow

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to Thomas S Monson.
Have we had that emphasis on

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revelations, visions, talking to
the dead, all of these things?

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And now President Nelson is
speaking actively about that.

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It's it's kind of exciting.
So for me, you're sorry, very

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neat in the upper core of our
identity that's in those

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experiences and sometimes we
lose it, right, maybe mid 20th

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century.
We're not talking about as much,

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but I think it's on the way
back.

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You know, I I think and and
certainly from from my faith

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community, those things are are
picking up and accelerating as

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well, right.
And and a lot of people I talk

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to there seems to be an uptick
in this, right.

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And it's it's almost like we're
kind of hurtling towards an

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event, right.
And there's little things that

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are beginning to happen where
where it's like K buckle up son.

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You know you're about you're
you're about to see some stuff

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the show's coming so to speak,
right.

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And and and I find that
extremely fascinating that that

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you're seeing that on the LDS
side.

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I'm seeing that on the
fundamentalist side and and

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quite frankly I I've spoken to
people who aren't even Mormon,

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who are starting, you know, guys
you never would have thought

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right guys like I I have a next
door neighbor right now.

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We're just renting a place.
But but he's, he's a Baptist,

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right?
And we always have that

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uncomfortable conversation,
'cause I'm pretty much in the

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Bible Belt now, right?
And it's like, I see you dress

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up every week, Where are you
going to church?

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And I'm like, well, you better
sit down.

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This is gonna be a minute.
But we we have this great

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conversation.
He's like, you know, in in our

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church right now, there's a lot
of people who are talking about

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seeing some stuff that's kind of
in the realm of supernatural.

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I was like like bad
supernatural.

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And he's like, no, just just
visitations.

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So yeah we're I I feel like all
of us who who who are trying to

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find the Savior for some reason
we're we're you know as time is

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progressing here and and quite
frankly just one guy's opinion.

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I think we're getting close to
some major events that have been

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foretold in scripture.
It's it's almost like these

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these these kind of
manifestations are happening and

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and that's why I think your your
podcast is so timely right.

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Because I think we have become
somewhat removed from from

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engaging with those experiences
because quite frankly we've

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we've lived in an age where I
think we've tried to explain

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everything and man has kind of
been like well we got this all

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figured out you know the this
this is caused by this and so it

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it's fascinating cause a lot of
your your podcasts they go back

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a ways right.
They go back to to the 19th

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century and it's interesting to
see how they they handled those

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and they interacted with with
those as well.

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Oh absolutely.
You know I I think that's true.

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I think people are thinking
about the supernatural right

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This and I use supernatural to
be the divine to right this

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00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:42,520
otherworldly I think and I think
Latter Day Saints are really

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cautious to say we're not weird
right.

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00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:51,600
There's this emphasis to say,
hey, you know, and I guess what

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00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,920
I want to be is the sort of
Latter Day St. that that never

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hides the sort of radical faith
that is my religion, right?

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00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,520
There's something here.
I know, I know you think it's

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absurd, not you that angels show
up to to teenagers, but I think

235
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:08,520
it really happened.
Right?

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00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,760
So.
So I want to own that and I

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never want to be ashamed of it.
And so the podcast plays into

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that.
You know, I don't have a a

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00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,440
testimony of any individual
story.

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I share maybe a couple.
But of the worldview of this

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idea, I I really want us to to
grasp onto it.

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And sometimes we have lost
ideas.

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These are, these are people, as
you mentioned in the 19th

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00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:39,320
century, that had a very active
experience with the

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00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,920
supernatural.
When they built temples just

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00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,480
like we do, they had
experiences, they saw things,

247
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,520
they heard voices.
But the difference is they wrote

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00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:54,720
it down and they talked to each
other about it and I think we're

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we're less likely to do that.
And so I think today we do see

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upticks and that and maybe it's
because the Internet makes it so

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people can again communicate
with other like minded

252
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,680
individuals.
But something's going on for

253
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sure.
I think it's.

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00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,800
I think it's a neat thing.
When I talk about these

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experience with students at BYU,
they're for the most part really

256
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,960
open to it.
You know, a few of them will be

257
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,440
like, oh, that really weirded me
out, Doctor Blythe.

258
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,800
But most of them say, oh, I had
no idea.

259
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,960
You know, I had, I've had
several students want to write

260
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,760
papers about how there's been a
decline in spiritual gifts in

261
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,520
the church.
You know, like that's the

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00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,240
premise of the of the paper.
How do how do we explain this?

263
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,880
And usually by the end of the
class and of course I tell them

264
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,760
they can do it by the end of the
class, they usually come to me

265
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,760
and say, I don't think that's
right anymore.

266
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,400
I I just don't think we talk
about it.

267
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,880
And so something shifts in their
minds as they think about it.

268
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,520
But pretty fascinating.
That tie with the 19 past is

269
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,000
really important for us, of
course, Right?

270
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,040
Right.
Let me ask you this, why is it

271
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,920
you think that maybe the the
last 50-60 years, whatever it's

272
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,480
been, I say 50 years and I'm
like we're six years, that's six

273
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,600
years away from the 80s is all.
But we'll we'll go back a little

274
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,520
further, right.
We'll say from the 40s to to on

275
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,320
to today, Why do you think we've
been so hesitant as a people to

276
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,280
share those stories or those
experiences with with each

277
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,800
other?
Do you know, in my book Terrible

278
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:34,800
Revolution, I trace this idea of
kind of a an idea that if I have

279
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,680
a spiritual experience, I should
only share it with my

280
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,880
stewardship, but I should only
share what my family is.

281
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,840
I should only share it when I
feel the spirit tell me it's OK

282
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,680
in this setting to share it.
I trace those ideas really to to

283
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,360
1913 and 1913.
We've already had statehood

284
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:59,040
happen and then the dream mine
happens and this becomes a big

285
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,880
deal.
So there's an official statement

286
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,000
that's sent out.
In fact, in the book I focus on

287
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,640
three statements, right?
19 OO 5 is when we have a

288
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,560
statement against the one mighty
and strong. 1913 is this dream

289
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,839
mine experience.
And then 1918 is when Joseph F

290
00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:23,480
Smith gets up and says hey I
didn't I didn't actually have

291
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,400
that vision that's circulating
about me.

292
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,200
And also I know Edwin Rushton
and the White Horse Prophecy

293
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,960
isn't real right.
So we have these three moments

294
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,400
in which these the church is
kind of saying don't trust

295
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,400
unofficial sources even when
they claim to come from the

296
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,560
Prophet.
If your neighbor comes to you

297
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,480
and says I had a vision and I
want you to invest in my

298
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,560
business, you can go ahead and
tell him no, that you need to be

299
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,840
careful about sort of messianic
people that show up and say,

300
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:58,000
hey, you need to follow me.
So the in this period, you know,

301
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,560
the period of transition is
really focused on saying hold

302
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,240
up, we need to be really
careful.

303
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,200
And I think it's about being
good Americans.

304
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,320
I think our prophecy literature
for the most part was about the

305
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,600
collapse of the United States.
And now that we're part of the

306
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:24,400
United States, it becomes it, it
becomes counter the big project

307
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,320
if we're emphasizing that the
United States is gonna collapse,

308
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,400
right.
And so by reining in these

309
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:34,120
voices, this, these visionary
voices, you can kind of control

310
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:36,360
the message that's coming out a
little bit better.

311
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,480
And so I think that's where we
started and once those those

312
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,000
policies are around, we stick to
it.

313
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,560
I I also.
Think you know there is.

314
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:53,080
This is it's AI mean.
It's a practical rule in 2023.

315
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,360
I like like when my neighbors
might not.

316
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,960
I mean I want them to tell all
their experiences to me, but

317
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,320
maybe I don't want them to
publish them far and wide

318
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,640
because I don't want people to
think their experience

319
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,640
represents something.
I think right, we're all Latter

320
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,160
Day Saints and so if Denver
Snuffer shows up, maybe I don't

321
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,560
want Denver Snuffer sharing all
of his visions at church.

322
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:24,400
Maybe I want Denver Snuffer to
be told to chill out, keep it to

323
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,840
his home.
But that is a problem.

324
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,280
So I think for the most part,
where we see this is that the

325
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,520
church only really does
something when visions push

326
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,000
against the community goals,
right?

327
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,320
To build in temples, there's no
problem If I say I saw my mother

328
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,640
in the temple or I heard a voice
say do the work for this person,

329
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,680
no problem for that.
If I have a vision that says

330
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,640
you're going to have a baby,
nobody has an issue with that.

331
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,920
But if I have something that
says gather to New Mexico, then

332
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,960
the church is going to have an
issue stepping out of the thing.

333
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:04,520
So I think it's really
fascinating and some people just

334
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,840
go beyond that and think you
can't talk about anything.

335
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,960
Which is not too different than
you know, an individual who

336
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:11,920
thinks you can't discuss
anything about the temple.

337
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:18,840
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
You know, I remember well I'll

338
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,600
I'll just share, share one of
mine, right.

339
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,080
I told you I resonated a lot
with the with those pre birth

340
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:31,440
experiences so to speak so and
and this is going someplace so

341
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:37,040
everyone bear with me out there
but we had we had just moved all

342
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,320
four of our kids from Boise ID
to the Eastern Shore of Maryland

343
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,560
not quite across the continent
but it's pushing it right.

344
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,960
I mean I'm only short by by
three or 400 miles going coast

345
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,480
to coast and we moved out there
and we didn't know anybody

346
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,400
right.
I mean, if you ever wanna know

347
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,000
what it's like to be in the
Sanders family, it's we may get

348
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,720
that bug and you know what?
We're we're we're going

349
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,880
somewhere.
But we we get out there and and

350
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,640
you know, it's it's a strain on
the kids, right.

351
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,840
We're cognizant of that as
parents, right?

352
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,920
We're we're uprooting them from
everything they know.

353
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:17,000
And we're gonna go 2500 miles to
the east and we're gonna drop

354
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,000
shop right there and and set up
and go for it.

355
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,840
And so times you know it's a
little rough on the kids And so

356
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,680
I told Amber I was like let's
let's make this Christmas really

357
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,880
good.
We're making good money.

358
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,920
Whatever the kids want.
Just get it right.

359
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,000
I mean they've been rock stars
through this whole process and

360
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,000
and I wanna I wanna make sure
they know how much I appreciate

361
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:42,320
what they've done here.
And so it comes time and and and

362
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,840
we tell our our five year old
Hannah was her name.

363
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,480
I said Hannah.
What What do you want for

364
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,400
Christmas, sweetheart.
And you know what What do you

365
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,480
want Santa to bring ya.
And she goes, you know what I

366
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,280
I'm gonna get twin babies.
Not I want.

367
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,640
I'm gonna get.
And I said OK all right, well,

368
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,160
we'll we'll we'll see maybe what
Santa can do, maybe he can bring

369
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,560
you, you know, a couple of baby
dolls.

370
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,280
And she got really indignant,
Chris.

371
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,440
I mean, she got way indignant.
She was like, no, I want real

372
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,000
twin babies.
I'm like, well, sweetheart,

373
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,680
without giving a whole bunch of
biology away here, that's just

374
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,640
not possible anymore, right?
Like, you know, the medical

375
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,920
reasons my wife had to have some
surgery.

376
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,720
I'm like, look, that's just not
gonna happen.

377
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,120
And she kind of walked away a
little irritated, I could tell,

378
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,000
right?
She had her mom's look to her.

379
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,840
She walked away from me a little
irritated.

380
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:38,000
And so, you know, couple months
go by and right around her

381
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,360
birthday, I asked her again,
What?

382
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:41,920
What do you want for your
birthday, sweetheart?

383
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,960
She's like, I want twin babies
now I'd forgotten about this,

384
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,600
right?
Christmas is in December.

385
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,000
Her birthday's in April.
She's like, I want twin babies.

386
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,000
And I said, well, sweetheart,
you know what?

387
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,360
We we can certainly see what we
can go down the store and find

388
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:58,920
for you.
And she again, she said, no,

389
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,720
they're gonna be real babies.
And this time.

390
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,120
And she said they're a little
boy and a little girl and again

391
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:07,560
was just like, this is going to
happen.

392
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,000
And so a few months after that,
I get the call from Idaho

393
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,320
Department Health and Welfare
Child Services.

394
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,360
You know, my sister had given
birth to a set of twins.

395
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,120
She kind of left him in the
hospital and it was an

396
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:24,520
emergency.
So I they asked if we'd be

397
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,880
interested in adopting.
And you know, because my wife is

398
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,360
awesome like that.
She's like, yes, absolutely we

399
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:32,840
will.
So I flew back to Idaho about a

400
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,160
month ahead of time, bought a
house, got everything set up.

401
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,520
Then I flew back out, picked up,
you know, all the kids and Amber

402
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,360
and we started driving out.
And now when when I get to

403
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,160
Idaho, these twins are in
horrible condition, I mean,

404
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,000
absolutely horrible condition.
And so I tell Amber, I was like,

405
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,320
let's not tell any of the kids
about about these twins yet

406
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,400
because we don't like, we don't
know if they're going to live

407
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:05,040
kind of a thing.
And so the time in the in the

408
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,640
month I was there, I would go to
work and then go right to the

409
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,440
hospital, 'cause I have nothing
else to do, right?

410
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,440
I'm essentially a bachelor again
in a five bedroom house with a

411
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,360
lawn chair ATV and some ESPN and
an Xbox, right?

412
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:20,400
That's that's my that's my
existence.

413
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,240
So I I spent a lot of time up
the hospital and as I held them

414
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,560
they started to perk up more and
and things you know they made

415
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,920
great great great advances
thanks to the doctors and some

416
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,320
blessings and those sorts of
things.

417
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:41,120
So then we we end up going to
back to to Maryland.

418
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,440
I pick up Amber and the kids and
we're driving out and we get to

419
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,480
we were right on the border of
of like Pennsylvania and Ohio.

420
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,000
We were in the Ohio River
District area or excuse me, Ohio

421
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,480
River Valley area.
And I'll never forget it.

422
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:05,720
We stopped off at an old an old
Ruby Tuesdays and I was like,

423
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,920
OK, you know we'll tell them
here what's happening, right,

424
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,000
'cause they're not dumb, they
can feel it.

425
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,280
You know we're in a hurry.
We're we're not, we're not

426
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,760
hanging out.
And finally tell the waitress, I

427
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,960
want a seat in the back, right.
I want something as private as I

428
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,600
can get.
And and she accommodated me and

429
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,040
she was super nice.
And I get back there and I just

430
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,960
tell them I said, hey, you know,
here's the scenario.

431
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,800
There's these two babies that
we're going to be adopting.

432
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,840
And all of a sudden Hannah lifts
her head up and her eyes get

433
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,080
this big and she's like twin
babies.

434
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,400
Really.
And I'm like, Yep, absolutely

435
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,200
twin babies.
And.

436
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,480
And she's going and she goes one
boy and one girl.

437
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,120
And this whole time I'm not
making the connection.

438
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:55,400
Right.
And I'm like, yeah, one boy and

439
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,680
one girl.
And and she like, slaps the

440
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,160
table and she just says, I told
you, I told you you wouldn't

441
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,640
listen.
But I told you, I mean, she's

442
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,440
shouting it.
And so when when I heard yours

443
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,920
that, you know, your episode on
that, that really resonated with

444
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,360
me.
But for the longest time, for

445
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:17,080
the longest time, I I was scared
to share that, right?

446
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,960
Because one, it just seems
unbelievable.

447
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:28,560
And two, I felt, you know, if I
share this, am I gonna get

448
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,240
looked at as a nut job?
Am I gonna get looked at as as

449
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,440
one of those guys?
Right.

450
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,320
And.
And so that concerned me right

451
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,760
now.
After a time, I found that no, I

452
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,560
could share that, but it had to
be the right setting, right?

453
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,440
And I think setting has a lot to
do with with being willing to

454
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:49,600
talk about these.
Things.

455
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,840
Yes.
You know President Nelson

456
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,640
Russell and Nelson had this
experience I thought around the

457
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:04,480
episode right where his wife has
met this child, this male child

458
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,560
that's going to be born with
their family except she keeps

459
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,040
having girls.
So you know eventually they

460
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,520
think there's no way we're going
to have another kid and then it

461
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,160
happens and then Russell and
Nelson has a dream or some

462
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,840
experience with this child right
before he comes sort of thing.

463
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,320
These are these are powerful
things.

464
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,680
I mean I think we can trace them
back a really far in the

465
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,080
restoration Dodd is all about
family.

466
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,920
So I, you know, I'm pretty
hesitant to share mine, but I

467
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,280
had two dreams about my children
before they came.

468
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:50,040
One one is my third kid didn't
have a dream and my wife is very

469
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,400
upset with me about this.
He didn't get his own dream, but

470
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,640
he was born during the eclipse.
So that's cool.

471
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,400
But my first child, I had a
dream.

472
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,080
You know, Christine got pregnant
and I was late to the baby

473
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,200
blessing.
This is kind of a common theme

474
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,960
and and Latter Day Saints dream
life, right?

475
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,280
You're late to your your kids,
men, late to the baby blessing.

476
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,640
This is like our first
responsibility as dads.

477
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,640
We go in there and I'm a chubby
guy.

478
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,360
That's the context for this.
If you're just listening, I look

479
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,520
up on the stage.
I look up on the stage and

480
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,760
there's a chubby kid surrounded
by others.

481
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,400
And I said, oh, that must be my
son.

482
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,160
And so I'm running up there
giving a blessing and a guy

483
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,720
steps for me and says no, no,
no, that's not your son.

484
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,400
And they pull this little skinny
kid out from behind him and puts

485
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:45,160
him in front.
And I said, oh, and which is

486
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,840
just fun, right?
So I, you know, I told

487
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,880
Christine, well, we're having a
boy and of course my son's like

488
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,040
a twig.
None of my kids take after me in

489
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:59,480
in size, but that was fun.
My next son, I had an experience

490
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:05,680
that still really has a major
impact on me.

491
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,440
I woke up in the dream middle of
the night.

492
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,200
My child has already been born
and it's on my wife's thighs.

493
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,360
She's still asleep.
And I pick up this baby and it's

494
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,520
a boy and he has roots coming
off of his head, kind of a, you

495
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,480
know, like he's part tree.
And so I wake up and I think,

496
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,560
what is this?
And I I didn't know what to make

497
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,040
of it.
I said maybe we're supposed to

498
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,400
name him something, you know,
dealing with trees or or roots

499
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,840
or maybe there's something else.
But then when he was born, he

500
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,800
was born on the call.
And so he had the root of his,

501
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,480
of his growth, right.
The thing that made it so he

502
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,040
could get nutrients in his
mother still still wrapped

503
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,600
around his head when he was
born.

504
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,080
So isn't that interesting?
I think there are, they're just

505
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,160
little signs.
I mean, we're supposed to get

506
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,160
revelation about the things that
that matter to us.

507
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,840
And, you know, I've, I've never
had an experience that says, you

508
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,800
know, start a business or you
need to move to this town to be

509
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,760
safe.
But about family, you know,

510
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,960
these are the experiences I
regularly have and I can, I can

511
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:19,680
trust God's going to give in to
me.

512
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:20,880
I think that's a very latter
day.

513
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,440
Same thing when I interview
people as a folklorist, that's

514
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,920
usually where they can pinpoint
and say, oh, do you know what?

515
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,960
My mom actually met me before I
was born.

516
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,440
I met, I meet so many people at
BYU who have a story about how

517
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,960
their mom met them, which I
think is very fun.

518
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,000
Right.
Right.

519
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,400
Think you were the child from
one of these visions, right?

520
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,200
You twins that showed up to your
big sister.

521
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,000
That's crazy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

522
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,360
No, it was, it was one of those
things that that I will hold

523
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,120
dear in my heart till I die and
and something that was really.

524
00:30:55,320 --> 00:31:01,320
Yeah, absolutely.
Let me ask you this question as

525
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,520
a man who's into to folklore,
specifically, you know, Mormon

526
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,800
folk folklore.
What's the one war that we all

527
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,280
swear is true that you later
find out isn't?

528
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,440
Want more from the Mormon
Renegade podcast?

529
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,440
Head over to the Mormon Renegade
Rumble page to see all the

530
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,240
videos from the podcast and the
Fundamental News Program for

531
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,720
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532
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,240
Then join the Mormon Renegade
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533
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,480
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534
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,360
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535
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,880
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host Dave Sanders.

536
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,600
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

537
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:54,480
Let me ask you this question as
a man who's into to folklore.

538
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,240
Specifically, you know, Mormon
folk folklore.

539
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:03,240
What's the one roar that we all
swear is true that you later

540
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:10,560
find out isn't there's?
There's probably plenty of

541
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,040
these.
It depends on the era.

542
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,920
You know, we do so well in
checking a story after it's big

543
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,040
enough.
And so when did you join the

544
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,200
church?
9595.

545
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,560
So I joined the church in 95.
It was baptized on April 30th,

546
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,880
1995.
I was 14.

547
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:33,440
And the story then that was so
that's, I mean it started just a

548
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,000
couple years later and you heard
too, was generals in the war in

549
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,600
heaven, right.
Right.

550
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:44,480
And the the church worked so
hard to squash this and it took

551
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,000
about a decade.
But eventually, you know, boy,

552
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,360
Kay Packer gives that talk.
That's like, hey, when someone

553
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,000
tells this story, you have to
actually tell them it's not

554
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,120
true.
And I've never done that.

555
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,040
I like, I like, you know I don't
think it has bad principles to

556
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,800
it or anything.
So I'm not correcting people.

557
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,320
But here's here's an example of
that just holding on.

558
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,880
You know the the surety people
bring us back in the day when we

559
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,920
were baptized, we still thought
Steve Martin was a closet

560
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,880
Mormon, right.
We still, we still had these.

561
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,640
We had these things that we were
all sure about.

562
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,200
Oh, what else is big now?
You know, some things I I think

563
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,280
we're so sure aren't true,
actually are true.

564
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:31,480
Right.
So.

565
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,040
OK, you know, that's that's,
that's that's an interesting

566
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,840
thought, 'cause I do think that
in a weird way now, Chris, we

567
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,560
live in an age of unbelief,
right?

568
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,240
I I think, I think we have seen
a transition that happened

569
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,160
relatively quickly that but but
we're almost in an age of

570
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,000
disbelief and I don't know if
that's maybe I thought about

571
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,120
this a little bit.
I don't know if maybe it's

572
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,880
because of all the tech.
I mean the tech we have now like

573
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,520
when I was a kid there was no
Internet, right?

574
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,120
Like my kids minds are blown.
I was like there was no

575
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,080
Internet.
There was cell phones, but you

576
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,639
worked on Wall Street.
If you had a cell phone and that

577
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:14,800
bad boy, that bad boy was a
brick that you carried in a

578
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,159
suitcase cause the battery had
to be that big.

579
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:22,960
And so, so I I think in some
ways the fact that we've had all

580
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,719
this technological advancement
that quite frankly, I think, you

581
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,920
know, if if people from the 19th
century could see they'd be like

582
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,400
that's miraculous, right.
And so I think that that it has

583
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,120
maybe tempered that or or at
least squashed it.

584
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,719
But I think we are in an age of
of kind of disbelief, a little

585
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,000
bit there.
That's I think that's right.

586
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,080
You know, so often people will
write me and say I'm so

587
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,400
concerned about this story, will
you debunk it?

588
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,280
And I think, well, I'm not
interested in debunking things.

589
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,760
I'm interested in why things are
important to people, right as a

590
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,360
folklorist.
And so and as the latter day

591
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,000
saying so, I mean, I think there
are dangerous things out there.

592
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,080
If Chad Daybell stopped by my
house, right, maybe I'd set him

593
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,960
straight.
But the average person who is

594
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,160
who's really just trying to have
a relationship with God and

595
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,680
serve their family and go to
church and whatever, I think,

596
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,280
you know, I think they need more
belief, not less.

597
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,760
I don't know that the goal is
that they should be super

598
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,840
cautious with every story they
hear.

599
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,400
Within limits, sure.
But it is.

600
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,920
It's we are in a moment I I, I
really think, you know the

601
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,920
opening of my show we say the
Latter Day Saints tradition is

602
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,800
about universalism,
apocalypticism and radical

603
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,200
belief.
And I think, I think that really

604
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:58,480
is the the key to our identity.
When the rest of the world is

605
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:05,120
beginning to question everything
and change everything, we think,

606
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:11,080
oh, God actually still talks.
Of course we think Jesus raised

607
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,040
from the dead, but he's called
prophets of an art today too.

608
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,600
And I think people question all
of those things.

609
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,680
And so it's neat to be part of
the people who are trying to

610
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,880
hold on tight to keep it, the
relief around.

611
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,160
And when we don't have it, we
probably should check ourselves

612
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,760
a bit and say, wait a second,
'cause that sounds like doubt,

613
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:34,720
right?
Right.

614
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,600
Well, yeah, everything.
I think that's good.

615
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,040
And and again, I think that's
the promise of Mormonism, right.

616
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,280
I think that's one of the
promises of Mormonism.

617
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,120
And quite frankly, it's it's
something that I see see as a

618
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,800
major thrust of Joseph Smith's
ministry, right when when you

619
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,480
get down to what he's talking
about, he's like, I I've had my

620
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,120
experience with the divine and
you know what?

621
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,720
You can have yours.
And and sometimes I feel like

622
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,520
sometimes I feel like, OK, too
chubby guys talk and I know we

623
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,200
can both relate to this.
It's like if you look to this

624
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,880
great buffet and there's a whole
bunch of steak and yet all you

625
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,040
partake of is a salad.
That's just dumb, right?

626
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,400
And.
And and and that's what I worry

627
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,760
about is happening to Mormonism.
Here is a little bit is that

628
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,160
we're leaving the good stuff
untouched.

629
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,760
Did did you watch Elder Ukdorf's
general conference talk a few

630
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,880
years years ago about he did a
parable of the cruise?

631
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,800
Do you know?
All right, this is about a guy

632
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,000
who gets on a cruise.
He's never been on a cruise

633
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,640
before.
He's going across the Atlantic,

634
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,360
and he's brought enough food for
himself, but just enough.

635
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,320
He's really worried about money
and so on.

636
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,640
And so he sits and he eats his
canned food in his room by

637
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,320
himself.
And eventually at the end of the

638
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,720
cruise he realizes everything
was paid for as part of the

639
00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:57,240
cruise.
Right.

640
00:37:57,240 --> 00:38:01,320
He could have been out having
fun and eating buffets and and

641
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,480
he makes the exact same point
that you're making there, right

642
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,480
there's we need to live up to
all the blessings God wants to

643
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,560
give us.
And this is the essential

644
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:16,000
blessing of the latter day St.
tradition It's it's that gods

645
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:19,520
and that we can be part of that.
And I think you're right.

646
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,080
I mean, the message of the
temple itself is that we should

647
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,200
be seeking after more truths and
and God wants to convey things

648
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,440
to us.
And yeah, it's pretty awesome.

649
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,400
Absolutely.
I I think the other thing that

650
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,360
that is important from from kind
of a a sociological standpoint

651
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,800
is that since mankind first
started to gather around a fire

652
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,960
the thing that that bound and
even early civilization together

653
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,600
we're we're these stories,
right?

654
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,240
And and we see, we see this
certainly in American history.

655
00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:00,360
I'm a huge honk for early in
American history like a nerd

656
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,560
like that was one of the main
reasons I went to Maryland was

657
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,040
to just immerse myself in it and
you know there's the story of

658
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,160
Washington cutting down the
Cherry Tree.

659
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:15,120
Now we're fairly certain at this
point that that incident didn't

660
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,680
happen.
However, there is there.

661
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,280
What?
What's that I.

662
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:22,560
Didn't know.
I said, that's right, yeah,

663
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,360
yeah, yeah.
It's 100 years.

664
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,920
Our first account is 100 years
after it happened, right.

665
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,360
So.
However, I think it still

666
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,160
communicates some certain truth
there, right?

667
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,360
That that Washington was a man
of incredible integrity, right.

668
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:43,120
I think that can be proven and
and so it it's it's through our

669
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,240
stories right and and we hope
that we're only telling true

670
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:49,160
stories now.
Inevitably certain stories get

671
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:54,600
told that that may be partially
true or not true at all and

672
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,200
sometimes I don't think that
that's with malicious intent.

673
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,520
I think as things get passed
around the old telephone game,

674
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,240
you know, those things get get
told differently, but.

675
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,680
I think with a lot of these
stories, there's always an an

676
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,520
echo there.
I shouldn't even say an echo.

677
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,240
There is a truth that is usually
being communicated and that may

678
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:17,720
make us have to to parse that
out a little bit.

679
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,880
As a guy who deals in that, how
do you parse that out?

680
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,640
How, how do you get to a point
to where you can be like, OK,

681
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,760
I'm not sure on the details, but
I see what the thrust is here.

682
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,080
How?
How do you?

683
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,440
How do you?
Extract that.

684
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,880
So my principle, the way I
principally do this is that I

685
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,000
don't debunk.
So I'm always if there's a

686
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,600
story, I'm always looking for
why someone would tell it.

687
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,040
Why would this mean something to
them?

688
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,960
And how does it fit in that
worldview that me and my

689
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,440
audience does believe in, right?
That God speaks and that you

690
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,240
know, the miracles happen.
And so I, I, I take stories

691
00:40:54,240 --> 00:41:01,880
seriously, but I work hard not
to, you know, So I might tell

692
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,560
you the first time we had this
is 100 years after it allegedly

693
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,680
happens.
You know, great example of this

694
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,520
is Messiah Hancock or Oliver B
Huntington.

695
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,400
These are these Gordon
Storytellers, right?

696
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,360
Their journals are full of
stuff.

697
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,400
And I hope every word of it's
true, but I doubt it because

698
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,160
they record incredible things
and statements from Joseph Smith

699
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,200
that nobody else records, right.
But we have tons of journals.

700
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,560
And so I started to think hmm so
when I use those sources I talk

701
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,240
about ideas that were present.
You know he they think you know

702
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:40,120
one of the great quotes.
I think it's Messiah Hancock.

703
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:45,440
Joseph comes to him and says,
I'm John came before the flood.

704
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,080
I came before the fire.
Right.

705
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,280
Like I'm.
I'm leading the way for the

706
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,600
second coming of Christ.
Well I think that's true.

707
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,240
I don't think Joseph said it.
And so.

708
00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:00,280
So I think there's about it
where, you know, as a sort of

709
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,680
historian, folklorist, I can
pull back and say, look, this is

710
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,240
an ID at the time.
It's possible Messiah Hancock

711
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:09,720
even believes, you know, in his
memory that this happened.

712
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,160
But there's just something about
storytelling.

713
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,240
You know, there's something
about the figure of Joseph

714
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,760
people sat down.
We have so many, you know, the

715
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,720
rabbinical literature.
It's just full of these stories

716
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:25,720
that rabbis told about the
prophets, about the Old

717
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:28,040
Testament, and they're really,
really cool.

718
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:35,360
And I don't say, oh, this story
about Enoch is thus true, but I

719
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,480
say, here's an idea that's
circulating at that moment,

720
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,160
right?
And then I can decide, like it

721
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,840
or why someone would would
believe this at the time,

722
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,280
Where's it coming from?
Who would share this and what

723
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,520
setting would they share it?
There's all sorts of those those

724
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,240
folklore questions we do and
that's what I have my students

725
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:57,960
really think about in our
classes and and it's important

726
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:04,800
that we just pull back and we
give, we give a little empathy

727
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,200
to these folks sharing stories.
I think it's it's tough to be a

728
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:14,520
storyteller, but I also think we
should be wary of individuals

729
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:20,200
who are deliberately seeking to
harm a faith community, right?

730
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,840
So Mark Hoffman's the obvious
example.

731
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,160
Christopher Namelka is an
obvious example.

732
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:32,520
Samuel Schaefer, who who went to
prison five years ago, you know,

733
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,560
had written dozens of forged
documents.

734
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,680
I mean, they're just online
documents, not selling them or

735
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,000
everything, but, you know,
alleged endowment ceremonies

736
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,480
performed by offshoots and so
on.

737
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,720
Really fascinating material, but
all made-up, right.

738
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:51,880
And so someone gets this stuff
and then they think, oh, this

739
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,880
is, you know, I've, in this
case, I've had to correct people

740
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,080
several times about different
documents and say, hey, if your

741
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,640
goals actually tell the story of
this figure, you're you're using

742
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,320
the wrong source.
Right.

743
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,320
Right.
And that certainly happened when

744
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,680
we had things like the
Salamander Letter or the Joseph

745
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:14,600
Smith Third Blessed, who've
who've had major impacts on the

746
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,960
faith.
And and those are the dangerous

747
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,840
ones, right?
Those are the ones that that end

748
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,760
up doing harm and.
Yes.

749
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,080
That's something that I think
when we're dealing with with

750
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:37,720
Mormon lore and Mormon, Mormon
stories, so to speak, we have to

751
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:41,440
be very careful to sort those
out, right, 'cause not every guy

752
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:47,880
telling you a story is a guy who
is sincere, or sometimes they

753
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,600
are sincere and they're just
deceived.

754
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,440
I mean that's that's the other
thing and so you have to weigh

755
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,840
that out and and I I think this
is this is really where where

756
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,560
you can use Chad and Lori
Daybell as kind of a a poster

757
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:08,120
child or or a case study and
what happens when this goes goes

758
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,680
bad, right and that's something
you've covered as well.

759
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:20,000
Oh this is this is so important.
You know, right now I'm if you

760
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,760
watch any podcast on Chad and
Lori Daybell, you're going to

761
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,840
hear that their ideas are all
from Tom Harrison and the book

762
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,480
Visions of Glory.
You know they want, they want

763
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,400
some direct link, someone to
blame for this.

764
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,080
As if Chad and Lori aren't good
enough, right?

765
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,240
But so they want to reach out
and bring in other Latter Day

766
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:46,200
Saints stories and experiences
that maybe were influential.

767
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,760
But when I read something like
Visions of Glory, I don't see

768
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,360
the danger in it that other
people do.

769
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,560
I won't subscribe to all of it,
but I don't see it as inherently

770
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,160
dangerous.
I think things become dangerous

771
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,560
when people actually bring the
extremism to it, right?

772
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,120
I don't think it's dangerous if
someone thinks we should move to

773
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,680
Rexburg.
That's not a dangerous story.

774
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:16,440
But if you say sometimes kids
become zombies, well, then

775
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,120
that's a perfect point to say.
That's the sort of story you

776
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:26,120
need to address, right?
If you think, if you think God

777
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,680
will inspire you to premeditate
a murder, well then yeah, that's

778
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,480
a point that we should stop and
say what's going on here?

779
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,400
And that is dangerous.
It happens.

780
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:42,120
And in this case, my really
concern is that all of those

781
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,800
stories become such an LDS
thing, right?

782
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,040
With Chad and Chandler, Dabel.
The same thing that happened

783
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:49,360
with the Lafferty brothers,
right?

784
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,720
The idea.
So Americans tell the story of a

785
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,320
of a Mormon murder and then they
say this represents something

786
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,920
about Chris Blythe and Dave
Sanders, right?

787
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,600
They they they extrapolate that
from it.

788
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,640
And so one of the things I do
with the the the Chad and Laurie

789
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,440
thing is trying to make sense of
the stories that they're

790
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,960
telling, where they're getting
their ideas from, making sense

791
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:18,440
of it, but also showing that
this is a it's gotten really

792
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,240
twisted from a full Latter Day
Saints story, right?

793
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:28,040
1800 kids are killed by neglect
and abuse every year.

794
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,640
That a few of those kids might
be Mormon and even might be done

795
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:38,120
for psychotic reasons probably
doesn't tell you much about my

796
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:39,800
faith, right?
Right.

797
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:42,760
You know, I've.
I've read.

798
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,280
So, you know, as a
fundamentalist, that's something

799
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,600
I'm always on the lookout for,
right?

800
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,240
There's a dude down South named
Warren Jeffs who did some

801
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:55,440
damage, right?
I I like.

802
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:02,360
I know this is super unkind,
but, like, when I get to the

803
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,280
other side, I'm gonna be like,
can I just get one shot at him

804
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,960
just just once?
I mean, just turn your head for

805
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,080
10 minutes, let you know I just
give me some time.

806
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,040
Lafferty brothers are another
thing, right?

807
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:20,200
Where it painted, it painted the
rest of fundamentalism in this,

808
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,480
in this light of they're
dangerous.

809
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:27,000
They're spooky right now.
Truth is, it was one.

810
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,200
It was one small part.
Just like you can't look at Chad

811
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:35,360
and Laurie Daybell and then
assign that to the LDS Church.

812
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,720
Because quite frankly, as I
read, as I read some of the

813
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:45,000
stuff and and I haven't done the
research you have to me, Chad

814
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,200
and Laurie Daybell seem as bad
as Mormon as, I don't know, a

815
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,040
good Stephen King novel.
I mean, when you dive into it,

816
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,040
it's some pretty horrific
things, right?

817
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,920
I mean it, it doesn't resemble
Mormonism that I would recognize

818
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,800
from the LES Church, from most
fundamentalists I know.

819
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,800
I mean, it it it bears no, no
resemblance to to the religion

820
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:12,240
that Joseph would have started.
You know Dave, this this is

821
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:14,760
something you know, as we talk
about kind of leaving the

822
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,720
academic side here when we talk
about how to tell when

823
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:20,280
something's maybe not right, you
know, discernment.

824
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:23,480
Joseph Smith is emphasizing our
ability to get revelation and

825
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,040
then he's emphasizing
discernment right.

826
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,880
Try the spirits shake angel's
hands know what they look like.

827
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,720
You know, all sorts of stuff
where we're we're being taught

828
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:36,320
to double check revelation.
And I think one of the great

829
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,320
ones, Brigham talks about this
quite a bit is when someone's

830
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,360
revelations are really just
about how great they are, right.

831
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,920
If someone shows you and their
their major message is that

832
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,880
they're special.
They're the one, mighty and

833
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:51,720
strong.
They should be an apostle.

834
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,160
They should be the future you
know Levitical servant.

835
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,600
You know whatever is you know
that doesn't make sense right.

836
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,040
The message of just unless
you're Jesus unless it's the

837
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,000
book of Matthew like the message
that you're special has never

838
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,000
been the message of a prophet.
Right.

839
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:09,520
That that the prophet himself
is.

840
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,760
And I think this is we see this
and it's a really easy way to

841
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:19,160
detect like oh if every one of
your revelations is self-serving

842
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,560
maybe we need to step back And
that's true even of ourselves,

843
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,480
right.
If we're if we're believing

844
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,040
we're getting revelations but
they're really just about how

845
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:33,040
great we are.
And you know I think there's

846
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:39,240
this this in the LDS church
there's a a desire for men to be

847
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:42,360
bishops and stuff right.
And so they're constantly

848
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,680
thinking about this.
And in fundamentalism there's

849
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,400
sometimes a desire to be a
prophet, right, To hold the

850
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,840
keys, to be the one that that's
next in line.

851
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,040
You know, we have dozens of
schisms and things and I think

852
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,640
those are all those are easy to
pinpoint and say, look, this is

853
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,240
a really self-serving thing and
I think it's unhealthy.

854
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,520
And so when I tell my friends,
and I've had more than one who

855
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:12,040
come to me and say I think I'm
the one mighty and strong, I say

856
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:17,160
I don't think you are.
And I said it to their wives too

857
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:21,160
when they say it because I think
it's, I think it's unhealthy for

858
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:28,440
them too, right.
Like the general belief is my

859
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,200
belief.
I mean, I believe in messianic

860
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,960
figures and the gods bring this
all together for the last days

861
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,160
and so on.
But no, I don't think.

862
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,840
I think this is something that's
all the way back from the 1850s

863
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,480
and before Latter Day Saints who
want we want to be part of that

864
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,320
last day's events.
And so we think instead of being

865
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,480
like Brigham said, that great
man that the Bible says nothing

866
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,240
about, we want to be somebody
specific.

867
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,480
And it's certainly something I
read a lot about, so.

868
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:58,440
You know, when when it comes to
guys, well, let me say this,

869
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:05,200
when someone asks me how I'm.
I'm so certain that the Lord was

870
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,440
the one who inspired the
Doctrine and Covenants and

871
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,720
someone says, how do you, how do
you know that for sure?

872
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:12,000
You know what?
What makes you say that?

873
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,880
Well, I've had some, you know,
from from the spiritual aspect.

874
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:17,800
I've, I've had a spiritual
witness of that.

875
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,200
But if we look at this
forensically, no leader who's

876
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,920
seeking to for just power would
ever write documents in which

877
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,920
the Lord hands him his rear end
more than what Joseph gets it

878
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,560
handed to him in the Doctrine
and Covenants by the Lord from

879
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,720
time to time, right.
I mean the the Lord, the Lord

880
00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:38,640
gives it to Joseph a few times,
right.

881
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,760
So going back to this thing of
self-serving, right, we don't

882
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,920
get that out of the Doctrine and
Covenants a whole lot.

883
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:49,520
We you know he he does chastise
Joseph as well as others from

884
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,120
time to time and and it doesn't
have that same feel.

885
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:59,480
The the other thing I would say
is that when it comes to the to

886
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,160
the one mighty and strong, I've
always said if you gotta tell me

887
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,240
you're the one mighty and
strong, you're not the one

888
00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:07,880
mighty and strong.
I hate to break that to you, but

889
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,840
that's just hilarious to it,
right?

890
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,480
I mean, that should be readily
apparent without you having to

891
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,200
tell me.
So yeah, those sorts of things.

892
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,960
See the other thing that that
I've noticed as I've encountered

893
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,960
a few guys who were off their
their rockers they're really

894
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:30,440
good too about not only having a
revelation telling them how good

895
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,960
they are but sometimes they'll
even say oh and and and you're

896
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,000
really cool too right.
Like I I've I've heard this and

897
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:42,040
they'll kind of flatter you with
with that or another term is is

898
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,760
kind of baffle you with BS but
that's that's kind of thing

899
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,760
they'll they'll seek kind of
kind of you know vain flattery

900
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,000
kind of thing.
Yeah.

901
00:53:53,160 --> 00:54:00,960
You know Dave, when I was 18, I
I was exchanging, I was

902
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:05,840
corresponding with a latter day
schismatic leader and I can

903
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:10,480
remember him one telling me I
was one of the 144,000 saying

904
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,040
how are you so righteous?
You're so young, obviously

905
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,520
you're one of these.
And then writing me a letter

906
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,520
about how lonely he was, being
the only one to know he was a

907
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,320
prophet, and how he needs me to
get that revelation too.

908
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:25,920
I thought, oh, and as of course,
then I said, all right, I gotta

909
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,000
get out of here.
But as an adult, I recognize

910
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,960
that's really manipulative.
Right.

911
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,600
There's something about that.
I think.

912
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:38,800
I think that's important that we
pinpoint the sort of, you know,

913
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:44,200
the series of events that
happens for for some of these

914
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:45,480
moments.
But yeah, you're right.

915
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,400
Those are the things People have
revelations about themselves.

916
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:53,080
And then they point to like,
immediate followers and say, oh,

917
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,280
guess what?
You're really special too.

918
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,040
And that's how you that's how
you bring people in.

919
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,080
Certainly Chad Daybell's a great
example of that.

920
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:10,000
In a couple weeks, I'm doing an
episode on multiple mortal

921
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:17,000
probations, I guess I'll call it
Estates, and talking about how

922
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:22,920
he used sort of mapping out
people's past lives in order to

923
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:27,520
to gain more control, right?
To bring everybody in and let

924
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,680
them know that they were
actually his children and past

925
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,920
lives and so on.
Really fascinated and.

926
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,920
Yeah but you know that's that's
something else I never you know

927
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,320
myself I've never bought into is
is the idea of multiple mortal

928
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,840
probations cause quite frankly
everyone who has them have

929
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:48,800
either been Julius Caesar or
Cleopatra.

930
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,320
Right.
It's never like me post the

931
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,480
dunkart polar boy who gets run
over by the runaway dunkart.

932
00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:00,480
It's always somewhat super
important the the, the, you

933
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,480
know, I've also said before for
guys who think they're really

934
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,360
special and really important,
they have to be crazy.

935
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,880
Because as a guy who I try to
stay very grounded, that seems

936
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,400
like a lot of work and that just
doesn't suit who I am.

937
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,360
I'd rather be on the couch
eating Doritos, but that's just

938
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:17,400
me.
That's right.

939
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,200
Well, hopefully hanging with our
kids, right?

940
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:26,080
So like our real, I think
Section 121 makes it clear like

941
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:30,480
there's leadership and so on, is
a whole bunch of trials.

942
00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:33,360
Like, you got to make sure
you're not being abusive and so

943
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:34,400
on.
You're not practicing priest

944
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:36,560
craft.
You're not manipulating.

945
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:41,040
And at the end of the day, like,
you know the great thing we've

946
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,040
been called to be as fathers,
this is the this is the

947
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,200
restoration in action.
You don't have to imagine being

948
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,480
a Bishop or a prophet.
You've already been given this

949
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,480
work, and you can still get
Revelation for it.

950
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,280
And so on so.
Right, absolutely.

951
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:02,200
As as you've done done your
research on on all these

952
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:06,280
different lores, all these
different events, what has

953
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,960
surprised you the most in doing
all the research Cause like your

954
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:12,640
your episodes average about 1/2
hour, right?

955
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,240
Somewhere between 15 minutes to
1/2 hour I've noticed.

956
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,800
But what people don't understand
is there's a lot of work that

957
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,200
goes into that pre and post
production, right?

958
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,800
So there's a ton of research
that has to be done on the front

959
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,880
end.
So in all your research, what's

960
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,920
one thing that that has just
surprised you as you've gone

961
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:36,280
through this?
Are we talking about the Chad

962
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,160
Devil episodes or the other
episodes?

963
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:39,200
What are?
Any of them.

964
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:40,760
Any of them.
Both of them.

965
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:50,400
You know, I love.
I love learning stories.

966
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:55,240
Learning stories that I've heard
told to me by someone you know.

967
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,120
The Temple Apparition episodes.
One of my favorites.

968
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:05,000
I once had this woman on my
mission say to me, I went to the

969
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:08,440
temple today and the person
really didn't want to do their

970
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:10,400
work.
And because whenever I tried to

971
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,280
put on my clothes, it would be
pulled back like she's like

972
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,160
wrestling with a spirit in the
temple, I thought, that's the

973
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:18,920
weirdest thing I've ever heard
of my life.

974
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:24,240
And and then I found that there
are many accounts of people

975
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:29,800
saying just this thing.
And so often the thing I think

976
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,160
so interesting is that the story
that I think's obscure, maybe

977
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:37,440
related to just one person, is
actually an experience and a a

978
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,960
story that resonates with us so
much that's actually been told

979
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,320
many, many times, even maybe
sometimes even when people don't

980
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:48,120
even realize it, that this sort
of experience brings similar of

981
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,360
similar stories about it and
similar experiences, of course

982
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:58,720
with Chad Dabel.
Do you know the thing that has

983
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:04,560
surprised me the most is all of
the people?

984
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:12,360
Well, I'll tell you this,
learning where Chad developed

985
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:16,440
ideas.
And so we're we're studying, you

986
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,960
know, this one guy and the
terrible theology he developed

987
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:21,640
that led to the murder of these
kids.

988
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:30,600
But he's he's kind of just a a
sponge for ideas that he brought

989
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:35,240
in and then twisted and so you
know his ideas of four States

990
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:41,040
and exalted gods coming down,
he's, I mean he's practically

991
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:45,440
plagiarizing this from people we
can just specifically pinpoint,

992
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,760
including people that I've
studied in the past.

993
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,200
And you know, on this, this
reincarnation episode, I'm going

994
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:58,880
to talk about a man I met when I
was a teen who told me I was a

995
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,840
fourth estate being and that I
was one of the 144,000.

996
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:10,600
And this man, actually, I I said
how, How is it?

997
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,320
How does Chad Dabell's theology
borrow from that thing?

998
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:18,840
I heard from this guy 25 years
ago now, and just last week I

999
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,200
was talking to one of Dabell's
former friends interviewing him.

1000
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:28,000
And I learned that indeed he had
found this man's writings and

1001
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:29,640
they meant something to him.
You know, he was, he was

1002
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:30,960
developing his theology from
him.

1003
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,440
And so all the ties that you can
find and you know individuals

1004
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,640
who are out, you know,
unfortunately they're seeking,

1005
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:44,520
seeking light but making it
very, very dark as they do so.

1006
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:52,240
But that to me was was shocking.
It's very interesting.

1007
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,920
And of course the biggest shock
to this is that this man somehow

1008
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,360
had so many people believing he
was such a great guy.

1009
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:03,400
I don't understand how that
works.

1010
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:09,440
I really want to think that if
you would harm a child that

1011
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:14,000
there's some way I could see you
and recognize the danger, you

1012
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:18,360
know, and maybe some of us would
have been able to, but it's sure

1013
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,520
a a tragic story that so many
weren't.

1014
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,480
Absolutely.
And and I think I think that's

1015
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:29,040
where this idea of of
storytelling can can really kind

1016
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:33,320
of go off the rails, right.
Because look, I don't know the

1017
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:37,200
the the Chad Dabell story and
and Lori Dabell story as well as

1018
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:39,920
you do.
But I imagine that it doesn't

1019
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:46,360
start out dark, right?
It gets that way over some time,

1020
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,160
right.
And so maybe while it might be a

1021
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,360
little fringe to begin with, it
doesn't end at just being

1022
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:55,600
fringe.
It goes in a different direction

1023
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:58,560
and and I think.
That's right.

1024
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:04,640
I I also I remember I heard my
dad say something once and and

1025
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:08,720
he said a madman will always
tell you who he is you just have

1026
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:15,680
to be willing to listen and and
sometimes I think that that

1027
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:22,360
maybe not necessarily believe
but take them serious right you

1028
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:24,840
see something going in a weird
direction.

1029
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:29,360
I think it's super important at
that point to before it goes off

1030
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,080
the rails to try to get that guy
back on track, right?

1031
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:34,200
Put an arm around and be like
dude, you are.

1032
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:36,520
Flirting with some.
Bad stuff.

1033
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,840
And so that.
I think that's part, part that

1034
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:45,120
that can be part of the danger,
right, is that you gotta, you

1035
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:49,480
gotta be able to set some bounds
and have kind of a, a, a, a feel

1036
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,880
for when something's going off
the rails.

1037
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,040
And that's, I think that's
hugely important when you deal

1038
01:02:55,040 --> 01:03:00,480
with with a lot of this.
You know, in this case there are

1039
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:05,160
there's, you know, energy work
and reincarnation and these

1040
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,640
things.
There might be a warning sign

1041
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:09,720
they're not things I've
subscribed to, but I don't think

1042
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,720
there's anything inherently
dangerous in them.

1043
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:15,680
Right.
But the second chat spells

1044
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:18,800
second.
They're justifying an affair,

1045
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:20,840
right?
There's moments that happened a

1046
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,840
year before the murder where
every one of his friends should

1047
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,680
have been saying what?
This doesn't make sense, right?

1048
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:29,200
What?
How?

1049
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:33,960
How could you reason this?
So I do think we can show a

1050
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,240
decline.
And and I think it does start

1051
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:41,960
with often in these stories, it
starts with the revelation that

1052
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:45,560
you're really special, right?
And with that, it's not just

1053
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:49,280
that you're gonna be a leader,
but it's that morality doesn't

1054
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:51,840
function the same for you as it
does for other people, right.

1055
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,840
Dave Sanders needs to keep the
capacity, but not me.

1056
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:58,040
I've had this revelation that
I'm an exception.

1057
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,880
So I think you're right.
There are these these revealing

1058
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:07,800
moments where where people
should jump ship.

1059
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:14,000
Yeah, all right.
I I wanna go back to to to to

1060
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,520
kind of the the happier side of
of lore here for a minute.

1061
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:18,800
Let's do it.
Hey, Yeah.

1062
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:22,520
We we we kind of we we kind of
went down a dark Rd. there for a

1063
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,080
minute.
Chris, I don't envy you for

1064
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:26,680
having to do the daybell stuff
either.

1065
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,840
Let's just get that, you know,
like, you know, the.

1066
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:33,160
Daybell stuff.
I'm only gonna keep up till

1067
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,280
September.
I I It really bothers me.

1068
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:37,360
This is the third time I'm
doing.

1069
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,680
I'm using this as a rough draft
for a book, but you know, I even

1070
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,480
named it a different name.
So it's Angels and Seer Stones

1071
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:48,520
is the big podcast, and then
it's Demons and Pendulums is the

1072
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:52,840
Chad based health podcast.
I wanna make sure clear they're

1073
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,320
separate projects.
Yeah, yeah, I was.

1074
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,520
I was gonna say don't don't get
rid of those entirely.

1075
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,800
Because look, to be honest with
you, I thought about doing the

1076
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:07,840
Chad and Daybell stuff, and I'm
like, so when I saw you were

1077
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:09,960
doing them, I'm like, Oh yeah,
I'm just going to point people

1078
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:11,360
that direction.
I don't want to touch it.

1079
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:16,400
So good, good, good on you.
Well, hopefully the impact dies

1080
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:19,480
down.
Yep, Yep, absolutely.

1081
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:23,280
So, So back to kind of the the
lighter side of this stuff.

1082
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,960
When when your, your
run-of-the-mill Mormon has this,

1083
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:33,000
these experiences, what would
you recommend they do with them?

1084
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,440
Right.
We we've talked about there's

1085
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,920
kind of a time and a place for
everything, but at the same time

1086
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,360
you can be too guarded in these
things.

1087
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,280
So, So what?
What does the average member do

1088
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:51,000
with these things?
Well, I think one, we should

1089
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:54,040
write them down.
I believe that I think we should

1090
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:57,960
share them and our families.
I don't think we have.

1091
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:00,800
I mean I suppose there could be
some things we wouldn't share

1092
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:05,600
with our families but for the
most part I think we want people

1093
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,000
to know about our interactions
with God.

1094
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:13,920
I, in fact I was just got off
the phone with someone whose

1095
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,920
father had told them about a a
vision that he'd had.

1096
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:21,240
You know this is a faithful
church guy you know this the the

1097
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,240
vision is just about sort of
spirit world thing.

1098
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:27,600
You think about Russell and
Nelson, right before he's called

1099
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:33,640
his prophet, does a Roots tech
meeting, a Roots tech

1100
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:35,200
conference, you know, a
genealogy thing.

1101
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:40,400
And he brings a vision that his
grandpa had about the spirit

1102
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:42,320
world, about seeing his own
father.

1103
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:47,480
And what he does in this meeting
is he brings up his grandkids to

1104
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:50,520
read them this story.
And so we all watch this.

1105
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,880
And I think that was sort of
providing an example, right?

1106
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:56,760
We we share it with our
posterity.

1107
01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:59,760
We share it with our family, and
this functions as a really

1108
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:03,120
sacred space.
This is the homes, a temple,

1109
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:05,800
because we can do things in the
home we wouldn't do in other

1110
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,360
settings, and it's a sacred
spot.

1111
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:10,520
And so one of that is that we
can share these great

1112
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:15,800
experiences there.
I think you can also have

1113
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:19,200
moments where you build trust
with someone, with this person.

1114
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:24,280
And in those cases, you might
feel inspired to share something

1115
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,640
that you wouldn't share over the
pulpit, right, Or write in a

1116
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,920
book.
I So I think we should write

1117
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:32,600
them.
I think we should share them.

1118
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,440
So we shouldn't put up these
huge, you know, never, never

1119
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:39,840
share them.
Boyd K Packer says that the key

1120
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:42,960
is to make sure you feel the
spirit tell you before you share

1121
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:45,560
one of these things.
And when you share someone

1122
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:49,760
else's sacred experience, you
make sure that they shared it in

1123
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,440
a public setting.
You make sure that they they're

1124
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,240
the ones taking the lead on how
widely it should be shared.

1125
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:58,240
So if they only told you
privately, of course you would

1126
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:00,240
never share someone else's
experience, right?

1127
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,440
Whereas if they told you in
front of a group of 1020 people,

1128
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,960
you might be able to share that
experience at some future time.

1129
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:11,080
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

1130
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,760
Yeah, I I guess that would be
would be my thing right.

1131
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:19,040
Like I think because we we are
living in the time we are an an

1132
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:22,279
age of kind of disbelief right.
Even within religion which I

1133
01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:24,560
find which I find interesting
right.

1134
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:29,359
I've heard people try to to I I
shouldn't say debunk but maybe

1135
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:34,359
explain you know how Joseph went
about formulating the Book of

1136
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:37,279
Mormon and those sorts of things
and I'm like do we need to do

1137
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:39,840
this right.
Do we need to go down this road

1138
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:44,200
we're all stepping right.
Right.

1139
01:08:44,319 --> 01:08:46,560
Let let's just let the history
stand.

1140
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:51,000
Let's let Joseph say what it is
he said happened happened.

1141
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:57,840
But I I guess for me this is
something that that I don't

1142
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:01,240
think you should necessarily
seek after but when they do

1143
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:06,319
happen I I I think as long as as
the message is is one that that

1144
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:11,680
promotes faith in the savior
promotes you know family unity

1145
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:14,200
those sorts of things.
I think that that those are

1146
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:16,760
gifts and I think we need to
treat them as such.

1147
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:21,240
Right.
I've, I've often said just like

1148
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,680
a jewelry box.
You know, I remember my my

1149
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:27,840
grandmother had a jewelry box
and she would keep really

1150
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,840
special jewelry in there.
And so it might not be jewelry

1151
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,560
that she gets out every day, but
when the occasion calls, it was

1152
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:37,000
there.
And sometimes I think these

1153
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:38,560
stories are kind of like that,
right?

1154
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:43,000
You want to keep them someplace
special and safe, but you also

1155
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:44,520
want to wear them from time to
time.

1156
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:48,080
And you want to be able to to
not necessarily show them off,

1157
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:53,279
but but to to put them on and to
to allow them to speak for

1158
01:09:53,279 --> 01:09:55,680
themselves.
Love it.

1159
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:57,080
And.
And we should learn these

1160
01:09:57,080 --> 01:10:00,280
stories too, you know,
Especially stories for the 19th.

1161
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,320
We should learn them and be able
to share those and not not be

1162
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:09,840
ashamed of those stories, of
course, both our own and last

1163
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:14,000
ones.
Yeah, I really like that jewels

1164
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:18,360
that we bring out from time to
time and and and of course in

1165
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:21,760
the best settings are when
someone wears their jewels.

1166
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,600
So, right, right.
Yeah, that's a great message.

1167
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:29,360
Well dude, that's good stuff.
Where can where can folks find

1168
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:34,520
Find your podcast?
They can find it everywhere, but

1169
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:37,800
Apple podcast or YouTube is what
usually people go to.

1170
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:42,160
I think like 60% of our.
So you do video or just audios?

1171
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:47,680
Do you do video or?
Just only do audio.

1172
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:53,400
OK, we just do audio, but on
YouTube you can see a nice image

1173
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,080
as you hear nice her voice.
Nice.

1174
01:10:56,480 --> 01:10:59,920
Yep, I I did that for AI did
that for a while.

1175
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,440
I'm.
I'm on Rumble and I I went with

1176
01:11:04,440 --> 01:11:10,920
just the logo for a while and
Yep, Rumble and I I did that for

1177
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:13,800
a while where I just had kind of
the logo up and then people kept

1178
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,080
were like well we'd like to see
we'd like to see it.

1179
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:18,440
I'm like really once you look at
me you're you're you're going to

1180
01:11:18,440 --> 01:11:23,520
regret this decision I'm trying
to save you pain but but anyway

1181
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:28,040
I I gave them the option but
awesome good stuff.

1182
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:31,080
Well, OK.
My wife, my wife is beautiful,

1183
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:35,920
so people would want to see her.
But you know the the contrast

1184
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:38,600
isn't something I want won't go
in live.

1185
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:43,440
No, no, I I will say this, but
both both the girls have have

1186
01:11:43,440 --> 01:11:45,800
declined.
They went on somebody else's

1187
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:47,560
podcast but they won't come on
mine.

1188
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:50,760
So hate that for what it's
worth.

1189
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:54,640
Well, that's they.
Yeah.

1190
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:58,280
Yeah, they they won't be.
I have husband and wife.

1191
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:00,520
I will.
'Cause that would be a really

1192
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:02,720
good episode.
I mean that That's like, I could

1193
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:04,400
just turn on the mic and walk
away.

1194
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:08,400
I mean, that's perfect.
But no, that that's good stuff

1195
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:11,360
for sure, man.
Well, dude, as these things keep

1196
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:13,840
going on, as you keep doing
these episodes, let's get back

1197
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,040
on here from time to time,
because there's some specific

1198
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:19,880
ones I'd like to ask you about,
in particular, the three knee

1199
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,000
fights, that sort of stuff,
Right.

1200
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:25,440
Get a little more specific, but
I won't, I won't take up any

1201
01:12:25,440 --> 01:12:27,760
more time, any more of your time
tonight.

1202
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:30,040
I appreciate you coming on, man.
I'd be happy to.

1203
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,840
Maybe we should do a White Horse
Prophecy one down the road.

1204
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:35,240
Dude, that'd be awesome.
That'd be awesome.

1205
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,040
I'm down.
I'm down.

1206
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,320
Let's do that.
That'd be good.

1207
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:40,800
Awesome.
All right.

1208
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:42,600
Sounds good.
Thanks again, Chris.

1209
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:43,640
Bye everybody.