Episode #128: The King Follett Discourse W/Ben Shaffer

1
00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,760
If you're Mormon, and when I say
that, I mean anyone who's LDS, a

2
00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,720
Fundamentalist, or any of the
other various branches, there

3
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,440
are certain doctrines within the
restored gospel that make

4
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,600
Mormonism what it is.
Now.

5
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,320
Many, if not all, of these
unique doctrines can be traced

6
00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,160
right back to the Prophet Joseph
Smith.

7
00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,880
One sermon preached by Joseph
Smith specifically has shaped

8
00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,680
Mormon beliefs and thoughts
perhaps more than any other.

9
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,200
In the spring of 1844, Joseph
delivered the King Follic

10
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,480
discourse and forever changed
the trajectory of Mormonism.

11
00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,160
Today on the podcast I have Ben
Schaeffer back on and we have a

12
00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:41,600
discussion about what was taught
in the discourse, what it means

13
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,680
for us today, and the impact
it's had on Mormon doctrine and

14
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,040
thought at large.
And that's next on this episode

15
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,240
of the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
So a few weeks back I told you

16
00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,960
about a new online merch store I
was putting together and that I

17
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,040
would let you know as soon as
that was up and running.

18
00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,280
Well, after a few weeks of
working on designs and testing

19
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,960
it out personally, we're ready
to launch.

20
00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,720
So if you go to
mormonrenegade.com and click on

21
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,240
the Renegade supply button in
the top right of the landing

22
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,600
page, or click the link in this
episode's show notes, you'll see

23
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,320
that we have 16 items right now
that you can choose from.

24
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,440
We have shirts, hats, bags,
cups, and water bottles all with

25
00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,200
the Mormon Renegade logo, as
well as a couple other designs

26
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,600
that I think you'll find really
funny and maybe even one where I

27
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,680
take a slight shot at BYU.
But you should definitely go

28
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,120
check that out now.
This is just the beginning.

29
00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,640
In the coming weeks, more
designs and styles will be

30
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,960
available for purchase.
Now all the proceeds I get from

31
00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:37,840
this are going to go right back
into the podcast, so head on

32
00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,240
over to mormonrenegade.com and
press the Renegade supply button

33
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,680
or click the link in this
episode Show notes and get yours

34
00:01:44,680 --> 00:02:16,960
today.
You're listening to the Mormon

35
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:24,320
Renegade podcast.
Ben, how's it going?

36
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,040
It's going great, David, good to
talk to you.

37
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,560
You too mate.
Dude, you look way better than I

38
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,720
look.
Like I got AT shirt on a long

39
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,640
sleeve T-shirt and you like are
dressed to the 9.

40
00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:41,480
I'm in a suit.
You're in a suit and a tie.

41
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,360
Well, well, as a lawyer
occasionally it demands some

42
00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:53,120
fanciness and I had an interview
today, so I was trying to look

43
00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:54,200
good.
You know, the other thing that

44
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,840
was interesting today is I
talked to a a Coptic Christian

45
00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,040
who was coming in and we had to
give him a bit of a tour and we

46
00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,400
just toured downtown Salt Lake.
We went to the church History

47
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,920
library.
I explained to Adam God, he

48
00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:11,840
explained the similarities that
has with the Coptic Church and

49
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,080
their rejection of certain
councils and that's why they're

50
00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,000
separate from the Catholics.
And it's really quite it was

51
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,080
quite fascinating.
Dude, that's awesome.

52
00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,320
So, like, he's just like,
because the Coptic Christians,

53
00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,400
they live in Egypt, right?
For the most part, that's.

54
00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,960
Correct.
Yeah, it's the Egyptian Church,

55
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,440
but the same way that the Roman
Catholic Church does exist

56
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,840
outside of Rome, obviously the
Coptic Church does exist various

57
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,120
places around the world.
But yeah it's it's based out of

58
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,920
Egypt which of course with all
of the was he from Muslims makes

59
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:44,440
it hard to be Christian there
but.

60
00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:45,960
Yeah.
Was he from Egypt?

61
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,440
No, he's from California.
But but yeah, he's a Coptic

62
00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,720
Christian and it was
interesting.

63
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,960
So that their big split and he
could explain it better than I

64
00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:01,960
could.
But apparently the big split was

65
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:03,960
about the identity and the
nature of God.

66
00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:12,280
Really the the the debate at the
Calcedonian, I think that's it.

67
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,120
Caledonia.
Anyway, there was a there was a

68
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,279
council there and there was
debate about the human nature

69
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,040
versus the divine nature of God.
And many churches said that

70
00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,080
there were two different
natures, a human nature and a

71
00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,040
divine nature.
And the Coptic Church or the

72
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,240
Oriental Orthodox churches did
not subscribe to that.

73
00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,600
And they said Jesus had one
unified nature, he didn't have

74
00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:38,520
two separate natures.
Now that doesn't mean it's the

75
00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,400
same thing as what we're going
to talk about here today in the

76
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,880
King Follett Discourse.
But it actually has some amazing

77
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,280
parallels because these these
doctrines, these ideas that

78
00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:53,280
Joseph Smith is clarifying in
his, in his teachings, they

79
00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:56,000
speak to these questions that
have been debated throughout the

80
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,480
ages in some really profound
ways.

81
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,680
So I'm excited to get into it.
Dude, that's awesome.

82
00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:04,920
My my hope is, is that that man
that you took tour around and

83
00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,040
explained Adam God to, I hope he
encounters you know just some

84
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,120
missionary and like Oh yeah, you
guys believed Adam God, right

85
00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:13,880
that.
The oh, yeah.

86
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,480
I was just talking to a
missionary.

87
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,160
I was just talking to a Mormon,
you know, And Adam, God's stuff,

88
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:19,120
right?
That's the basis of your

89
00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,680
religion, Yeah.
That's awesome.

90
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,440
Well, yeah, dude.
King Follett.

91
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,560
Right The the King Follett
discourse.

92
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,760
It's interesting.
It's so.

93
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,640
Important.
It is because like when you

94
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:40,360
start looking at at Joseph's
trajectory, things take on a

95
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:46,360
different tone in Nabu, right?
In a lot of ways especially if

96
00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,600
you you get into like reading
the lectures on faith and those

97
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,160
sorts of things, you can, you
can see the kind of the, the the

98
00:05:55,240 --> 00:06:00,720
Protestant flavoring there right
in the Nabu, something happens

99
00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:06,120
right All the sudden there's
there's this Joseph's mind is

100
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,920
really opened up and and this is
where the Mormonism that we know

101
00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,840
and recognize today, most of us,
whether you're you're in a a

102
00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:17,920
fundamentalist church or or I
would say still today even in

103
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,360
LDS church it takes on something
that looks more like what we're

104
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,240
accustomed to and one of those.
Things you know, that's The

105
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,400
thing is, there's a lot of
Mormons that aren't familiar

106
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,280
with King, full of discourse,
don't know much about it.

107
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,320
But I can guarantee you almost
every primary age child in all

108
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,400
of Mormonism, regardless of the
sex, even in the mainstream,

109
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,600
believes a lot of things, even
if they don't know where it came

110
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,640
from, that are in the king full
of discourse.

111
00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,680
Right.
And and this is like as we look

112
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:52,560
at church history this is one of
those pivot points where it it

113
00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,720
becomes something radically
different been typical

114
00:06:56,840 --> 00:07:01,560
Protestantism and and in my
opinion it is a hinge point but

115
00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,280
it it's got some interesting
history so so explain to

116
00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:06,560
everybody what the King follic
discourse is.

117
00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,840
OK so the 1st and most obvious
easy misnomer is, is it about

118
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,000
some kind of king?
Well what's with the king?

119
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,880
Well the thing that's really
tricky is is This is why I'm

120
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,040
sorry I have to pre apologize to
a lot of parents in Utah right

121
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,080
now.
You should be careful what you

122
00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,360
name your kids.
People name their kids all kinds

123
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,760
of crazy stuff and it creates
problems.

124
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,760
And here we have century later,
more than almost 200 years

125
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,920
later, we have this confusion
because somebody was crazy

126
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,040
enough to name their kid for
their first name, King.

127
00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,520
His name was King.
That was his first name.

128
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,440
His given name was King.
He wasn't a king of anything.

129
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,600
That was just his name.
I feel like that's a lot to live

130
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,480
up to, like you're just putting
expectations on that kid from

131
00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,520
the get go.
Exactly so anyways.

132
00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:03,360
But King Follette was the name
of a guy, and he was a member of

133
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,400
the LDS Church for a long time.
He'd travelled through with the

134
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,360
church through some of its
various windings, and of course

135
00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,480
was in Nauvoo with a bunch bunch
of the other Saints.

136
00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,280
By the time the Saints had made
it to Nauvoo.

137
00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,120
And then, sadly, and the reason
why this talk is named after

138
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,720
him, he died.
He died just before the General

139
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:30,320
Conference of the church and it
was really, you know, it was a

140
00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,880
really terrible and very
unexpected tragedy.

141
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:34,799
This guy was the salt of the
earth type.

142
00:08:34,799 --> 00:08:36,280
He was never a general
authority.

143
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,960
He was never a famous missionary
or anything like that.

144
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,480
But he was always faithfully
doing his duty.

145
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,760
Joseph Smith and all the other
guys, they knew him and while

146
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,080
and it said he says it right
here in the talk that he died

147
00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,800
because he was digging a well.
Well, why was he digging a well?

148
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,640
He was digging a well to help
build Zion, right.

149
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,120
This guy's trying to be
consecrated.

150
00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:59,320
He's doing what he's supposed to
be doing.

151
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,920
He fills up a bucket full of
rocks and says, OK, hoist this

152
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,280
out of here because that's how
you dig a well.

153
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,520
You got to get way down in the
hole and keep digging, keep

154
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,160
digging.
And while they're pulling the

155
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,280
rope up with the, with the big,
big huge bucket full of rocks

156
00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:20,320
that he had, he had dug up from
the bottom the the the whole big

157
00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:25,480
bucket fell and fell on him and
crushed him to death and and so

158
00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,600
it was this.
It was this totally unexpected

159
00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:34,040
horrible tragedy and and so when
Joseph Smith got to the general

160
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:40,600
conference of of 1844, right,
it's the spring conference of

161
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,000
1844 and that's going to ring a
bell if you know that your

162
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,280
timeline's here a little bit.
It was April of 1844.

163
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,360
Joseph Smith gave this as his
general conference address.

164
00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,400
Now, of course, what I'm going
to point out is, is that means

165
00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,120
that this is the last time
Joseph Smith spoke to the whole

166
00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:00,200
church.
This was his.

167
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,080
It's a funeral sermon.
And so he talks about life and

168
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,160
death and these really, you
know, these deep and poignant

169
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,760
themes about what it means to
live in this world and what it

170
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,360
means to die.
And this is the last thing he

171
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,240
says to the Saints before he
himself was killed.

172
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,280
Right.
And so this is a very very

173
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:27,040
poignant very powerful thing
when you think about that he he

174
00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,680
talks about the doctrine of the
nature of God and the nature of

175
00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:38,160
man and and and I just can't
help but but feel as I read it

176
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,760
and I have a copyright here.
By the way if you want to put a

177
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,640
link somewhere in your
description when we're done with

178
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,960
this you can link to a place
where you can order copies of

179
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,240
the King full electric
Discourse.

180
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,120
There are of course a bunch of
places you can get this right.

181
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,680
But I I print my own little
booklet here and I'm happy to

182
00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:04,880
print anymore and and yet so I.
So as I read it though as I read

183
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:13,280
this I I feel so transported to
that time, to that moment when

184
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,800
Joseph is saying goodbye to the
to this world, talking about

185
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,520
themes of mortality, talking
about what really matters.

186
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,000
In the closing of his comments
he he talks.

187
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,560
He does he directly prophecies
and talks about his own death.

188
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,400
You know, and and he says
goodbye in a way that you don't

189
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,160
think.
A person who hasn't anticipated

190
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,400
his death would say this is
where we get the term.

191
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,000
No man knows my history because
that's exactly this is where he

192
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,360
says it.
He says you don't know me.

193
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,400
You never knew my heart.
No man knows my history.

194
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,560
I cannot tell it.
And I shall never now undertake

195
00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,400
it.
I don't blame anyone for not

196
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,600
believing my testimony.
If I had not experienced what I

197
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,240
have, I would not have believed
it myself.

198
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,200
I never did any harm to any man
since I was born into the world.

199
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,640
My voice is always for peace,
and I cannot lay down until my

200
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:14,080
work here is finished.
And you know, he's already, he's

201
00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:20,440
already telling them he won't
want to be with them, right?

202
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,480
And so he says when I am called
by the trump of the Archangel

203
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,160
and I am weight in the balance,
you will all know me then.

204
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,120
So I add no more.
God bless you all.

205
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,120
Amen.
And that's how he ends his talk.

206
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,000
So he's really saying goodbye to
us.

207
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,720
He's trying to say what is the
sum of my life, the sum of my

208
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,480
work, the sum of the Restoration
is what he's trying to tell us.

209
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,240
And so in this, in this great
discourse, he is really trying

210
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,960
to lay out the purest doctrine
he possibly can.

211
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,880
His final testimony to the
world, the testimony he's about

212
00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,000
to seal with his blood.
And I believe he did know it was

213
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,640
coming.
I I mentioned earlier that I

214
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:10,000
spent part of today in Salt Lake
City and the Church of Jesus

215
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,400
Christ of Latter Day Saints has
just purchased a bunch of

216
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:13,880
documents from the Community of
Christ.

217
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,840
And one of them is the last
letter, the last letter Joseph

218
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:24,280
Smith wrote to Emma.
And you can see he had he

219
00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,960
dictated, well, probably
Franklin Richards wrote out what

220
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,040
he said and then Joseph Smith
signed it.

221
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,640
But then, in his own
handwriting, Joseph Smith writes

222
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:42,600
PS to Emma.
He says, PS, I know that I have

223
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,600
done, I've finished my work.
I know that I've done all that I

224
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,680
could give my love to the
children.

225
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,880
And those are the last words
penned by Joseph Smith, right?

226
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,560
So he knows that he has done the
best he could and that it was

227
00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:58,520
enough.
And so it feels a little bit

228
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,080
like he must have thought felt
the same way Paul did, right?

229
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,960
That he'd finish this course.
He'd kept the faith.

230
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,200
Yeah.
You know in in our modern

231
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:15,200
culture too and I think this is
worth bearing out, is that even

232
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,760
though we'll all experience it
someday and we will all

233
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,960
experience the loss of a loved
one, we're kind of removed

234
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:29,080
somewhat from death, right?
If we think about it today, it's

235
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,000
it's everything we do has a
level of sanitation to it,

236
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,840
right?
Whether that's you know, we go

237
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,120
to the grocery store and we pick
up steaks, right?

238
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,600
And it But we don't think about
where that steak comes from,

239
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,000
right?
No, it's just food.

240
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:43,800
It's just nice pre packaged
food.

241
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:49,200
As as as a guy who was a hunter
for a lot of years, there is a

242
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,960
certain reverence that happens
when you take the life of an

243
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,680
even an animal, right, of
course.

244
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,320
And when one of our loved ones
passes, and I think this is both

245
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,880
a good thing and sometimes kind
of a bad thing, 'cause we get

246
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,600
out of touch, we call the
mortician and they come in and

247
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,600
they goop up the body and they
and they take it.

248
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,760
And these days that Josephson,
the the sting of death, I think

249
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,920
may have been a little more
punctuated because because

250
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,480
you're you're in direct contact,
right.

251
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,440
And so when Joseph starts
talking about things like like

252
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:29,040
what he's what we're about to go
over, this really is a bond to

253
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:34,560
the soul that I don't think we
can fully appreciate totally in

254
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:39,000
in our day and time Also as
Mormons, as you were just

255
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,560
saying, this is second nature to
us now.

256
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,960
This has been bred into our DNA,
so to speak, for the better part

257
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,200
of 300 years, right?
I mean the concept really the

258
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,240
concept of things like the plan
of salvation or what is the

259
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,760
celestial Kingdom, sure, it's
talked about in the Doctrine

260
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,840
Covenants, right?
It's talked about in Section 76

261
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,480
and other places.
Well, what it means to us is, is

262
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,440
from the King Follett.
It's from this last conference

263
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,760
talk of Joseph Smith because
he's laying out what it means to

264
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,200
you, not just this idea that
there's different degrees in

265
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,560
heaven that would all be pretty
abstract to us.

266
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,000
I think it wasn't for this,
yeah.

267
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,600
I think you're right it.
Really lays out this idea of

268
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,920
joining God's work, becoming
like God, because that that's

269
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,880
that is what Mormonism is.
It is this idea that we can

270
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:33,400
become like God and all of that.
You know, I was thinking about

271
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,160
this too, when I talked to the
when I talked to other

272
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,600
Christians is that they have the
Bible just like we do.

273
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,080
But my goodness, do we come to
different conclusions.

274
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,680
A lot of times, it's the lens
you bring to scripture that

275
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,760
determines what you think it
means.

276
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,320
And this is the the King, full
of discourse, is probably the

277
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,840
clearest articulation of what
the Mormon lens is in.

278
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,600
In fact, he even gets into
exactly the way we should We

279
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,560
translate and should interpret
and understand the Bible right

280
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:01,920
in this talk.
So.

281
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,280
Right.
The the other thing I I would

282
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:09,280
say too is that because we have
been kind of brought up with all

283
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,040
these teachings.
I don't think we can truly get a

284
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,560
good idea of just how
revolutionary some of these

285
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:20,200
ideas were in the time that he's
very this.

286
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,880
Yeah this is revolutionary this
is heavy stuff and so and so

287
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,040
those are things I want the
audience to kind of keep in mind

288
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,200
here as we we go through this is
is try to put yourself in this

289
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,400
time frame as it's delivered
because again the the the larger

290
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,640
Chris Christian view of that
time is one that's very

291
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,000
Protestant or very Catholic and
and those were kind of your two

292
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,080
options back in the day.
Do we have oh go ahead.

293
00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:52,360
Sorry.
Yeah, and I was, I was going to

294
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:54,600
say that that is the interesting
point too.

295
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,800
If anybody, I mean anybody
listening to the Mormon renegade

296
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:02,000
right is going to be aware of
anti Mormon literature and the

297
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:03,520
experiences that Mormons have
had.

298
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,520
So much of what is this is
blasphemy that people are angry

299
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,760
at against Mormons.
From a Christian viewpoint, it's

300
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,040
all in the king full at
discourse.

301
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,080
So once again, both on the
positive side 'cause I love

302
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,400
this, I love this discourse, but
also the negative of Oh my

303
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,680
goodness this is blasphemy.
Who why would you believe that

304
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,400
this is you know, this is this
is weird stuff, you guys are a

305
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,120
cult.
All of that basically comes out

306
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:35,640
of this as well, because all the
most supernal doctrines are also

307
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,080
sometimes the most vilified, the
most blasphemous things that

308
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,600
people dislike Joseph Smith for.
Well, most of those quotes come

309
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,800
right out of this discourse.
You know.

310
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,440
But so it's a double edged
sword.

311
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,400
He really is keeping in the
tradition of Christ though,

312
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,200
right?
I mean, if we look at what

313
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,000
Christ was talking, that's
revolutionary for his day.

314
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,400
And so I I yeah, that's just
stuff to keep in mind.

315
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,680
Now, as far as the history of
it, did, did somebody dictate

316
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,720
the whole, the whole thing as
they were, As he were?

317
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,280
Talking background.
Yeah, so this is one of those

318
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,480
things that's really hard before
you get to the Journal of

319
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,360
Discourses in 1852, where they
had actually had people using

320
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,520
shorthand to try to transcribe
what was being said.

321
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,320
Most talks were not really
recorded well, and so this leads

322
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,840
to some debate about what
exactly Justin said or didn't

323
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,160
say or manager didn't mean at a
lot of different conferences.

324
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,920
This discourse, however, was so
powerful to so many people who

325
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,760
heard it that a ton of people
did the best they could to to

326
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,960
write down whole sections of it
as much as they could.

327
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,600
This means that we have a whole
bunch of accounts, but none of

328
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,960
those accounts are actually
totally complete, right?

329
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,800
So I've I've got some
information on this there.

330
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,040
Willard Richards, Wilford
Woodruff, Thomas Bullock and

331
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:02,240
William Clayton all tried to
write this talk down while it

332
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,680
was being given.
OK, all four of them and all

333
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:07,640
four of their accounts are a
little bit different, but there

334
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,440
is a huge amount of overlap and
some stuff that only appears in

335
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,240
one of the accounts.
Most appears in two or three of

336
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,240
the accounts.
Some portions of it appear in

337
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,240
all four of those accounts.
And so then then they tried to

338
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:23,800
put it all together and make
sure that it would work

339
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,600
together.
And it was printed for the first

340
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,280
time to the church on the 15th
of August, 1844 in the times and

341
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,560
seasons.
So all the way back in Naavu

342
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,200
before they even left Naavu all
the way, it was published.

343
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,520
But that is after Joseph's
death.

344
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,520
So Joseph didn't get a chance to
review that article and be like,

345
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,080
oh, I'll make some tweaks, oh, I
want to expand on this thought

346
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,160
or anything like that.
But it does seem that with all

347
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,400
of these different accounts,
various incomplete accounts,

348
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,240
that the picture we have today
of the King fall at Discourse is

349
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,080
substantially what Joseph Smith
said.

350
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,360
Now, when I say substantially,
every word, every tense, every

351
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:14,120
sentence structure, every
punctuation, no, it wasn't, it

352
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:15,520
wasn't recorded in that way,
right?

353
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,880
And there was no audio, video,
department or anybody like that

354
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,680
who could who could straighten
any of that out.

355
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,120
But I do think that because
because all of these different

356
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:30,120
men, but all did their best as
well as their other journal

357
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:33,440
entries just want us complete,
right, Because all of the

358
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,080
accounts are in harmony about
what his doctrine was and what

359
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,000
he talked about.
I think that the final version

360
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,680
that we have now that was
published in the times and

361
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,640
Season seasons and has been
published multiple times since,

362
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,280
it's in the history of the
church, the document history of

363
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,400
the Church volumes, it was
reprinted in the enzyme and of

364
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,800
course all the way back to the
times and Seasons in Abu.

365
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,760
I think that we can be
substantially confident that

366
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,440
this is what Joseph Smith said,
though.

367
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,920
If you have a slightly different
interpretation, or where one

368
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,120
sentence should start and stop,
or if something should be plural

369
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,400
or singular or something like
that, then your interpretation

370
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,600
may just may be just as foul as
anybody else's 'cause you can't

371
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,440
get too nitty gritty picky about
anything that was written before

372
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,440
audio recording.
Frankly, no.

373
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,600
That's just the way it is.
Let's put this in perspective I

374
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,920
last time I I remember reading
something on this, it sounds

375
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,760
like we didn't get a cohesive
version of quote the the Gospels

376
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,320
contained in the New Testament
till 100 plus years later,

377
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,840
right?
Yeah, that's what most most

378
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,280
textual critics will say.
Look, Matthew didn't write

379
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,080
Matthew, Mark didn't write Mark.
Luke didn't write Luke, and John

380
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,360
didn't write John.
Lots of people heard lots of

381
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:01,240
accounts from early, earlier
Christians that knew about it,

382
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,680
and then it all got compiled by
later authors.

383
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,880
That doesn't mean, of course,
that there again, this is one of

384
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,600
the but I still believe in Jesus
and I still have great

385
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,040
confidence what we find in the
Gospels.

386
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,440
Why is that?
Well, it's the same reason why I

387
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,680
can feel so confident about this
with Joseph Smith, right?

388
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,080
There's so much overlap in Mark
and in Matthew.

389
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,640
They will quote the same
situation where Jesus is at the

390
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,920
same place saying the same thing
but not quite said it the same

391
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,640
way.
Right.

392
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:36,520
Well, yeah, I I'm sorry, but I
guess that's true.

393
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,960
You can't always be sure exactly
the way Jesus said it.

394
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:45,320
Besides the fact we do not have
any Aramaic or Hebrew the the

395
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,080
the two languages Jesus was
likely to have actually known,

396
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,080
we don't actually have any
Aramaic or Hebrew originals

397
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,040
anyway.
We have the Greek versions or

398
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,800
the oldest we have for these
Gospels in the New Testament.

399
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,680
So but that doesn't mean that it
isn't substantially the same.

400
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,960
It doesn't mean that it isn't
still true doctrine.

401
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,200
And forgive me, but this is one
of the reasons why I always have

402
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,200
to push back against so-called
fundamentalists.

403
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,840
Right.
Because what, what makes a

404
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,520
fundamentalist A fundamentalist
is usually, you know, a heavy

405
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,960
focus on inerrancy and
literalism and exactness.

406
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,840
Well, let's face it, like, even
the, what do they call them?

407
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,560
The, the various accounts of the
First Division, OK, there's some

408
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,440
people who were like, oh, Joseph
Smith was 16.

409
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,200
And some people were like, oh,
no, he's 14.

410
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,240
Oh no, I think he was 15.
And those people are like, Oh

411
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,840
well, he said he saw God, but
did he see God, the Father and

412
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,160
Jesus as separate beings?
Or did you just see God as a

413
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,600
singular being, You know, and
all these other things, you

414
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,160
know, you can debate that all
you want if the.

415
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,200
But the more you debate those
types of details, the more you

416
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,800
miss the real point.
The real point is, is that God

417
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,320
is real and God really speaks
and men can truly become like

418
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:08,600
him, commune with him, know him.
I'd hate for everybody to

419
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,440
nitpick every random thing I've
ever said.

420
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,040
Well, they probably will.
The judgement.

421
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,600
I nitpick every random thing I
ever said.

422
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,680
And they're going to find a
bunch of random contradictions,

423
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,280
mostly because of simple
mistakes.

424
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,640
But the substance, the substance
is still the same.

425
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:27,120
The substance, it still matters.
And so I know that there are

426
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:29,200
some who want to find fault with
the King Full of Discourse

427
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,200
because of the various
reportings or or the the

428
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,720
omissions or the changes.
One of the most controversial

429
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,480
things in the King Full of
Discourse actually is found only

430
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,360
in Wolf and Woodruff's account.
People were like, eh, he was

431
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:44,000
just he misheard something that
was similar to some other part

432
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,640
of the talk.
It's just a little bit too

433
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,000
weird.
Again, nitpicking like that is

434
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,160
not going to help anything.
What we need is to get to the

435
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,920
substance of the truth of the
principle of the matter and even

436
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,280
now and and one of the reasons I
think that that is a red herring

437
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,560
to go after too much literalism
is don't forget in the world we

438
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:09,040
live in today, you can literally
show people an unedited video of

439
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,120
someone saying something and
people still won't believe it.

440
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:19,120
I mean, we're living in a post
facts world sometimes where

441
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:23,200
people will deny the truth right
in front of their nose, you

442
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,320
know, so, So you have to, you
have to take with a grain of

443
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,760
salt and you have to use your
own head and just not become a

444
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,920
flat earther over the fact that
some people saw something a

445
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,320
little strange once or twice,
right.

446
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,760
You have to.
You have to find out for

447
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,120
yourself and with this as much
as.

448
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,360
It yeah, you were saying you
haven't been nitpicked enough.

449
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,680
You need to do more podcasts.
We can fix that.

450
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,000
Right.
He'll nitpick you a lot, I'm

451
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:57,840
sure.
The other thing I'll say is just

452
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,640
like with the Gospels, where you
find that kind of overlap,

453
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,000
that's one of those things where
you can look at and say, OK,

454
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,720
this is probably pretty
accurate, right?

455
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,080
We got some overlap here.
We got some things going on.

456
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,120
And and even I, I have a buddy
who's a police officer still

457
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:14,800
back in Utah.
And I talked to him about once a

458
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,200
month or so and one night we
were just talking and he

459
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,280
happened to mention that if if
two people's story stories line

460
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,760
up too closely, they start
getting suspicious, right?

461
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,840
He's like if you go to an
accident or a traumatic scene,

462
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:31,760
people are going to put
different emphasises on

463
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,680
different parts of the event
based on their point of view.

464
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,360
Absolutely.
Now we trust the gospels that

465
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:43,080
took hundreds of years to get
compiled and written.

466
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:44,440
We don't have a problem with
that.

467
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:53,720
We have this, this sermon that's
delivered and it's pretty much

468
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,080
printed up inside of a year,
right.

469
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,560
And so really the, the
reliability of this, I don't

470
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,800
think can really, really be
questioned.

471
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,760
I mean like you were saying, if
you want to nitpick it, sure.

472
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,680
But I think I think we, we do
have the benefit of saying well

473
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,280
this was in historical terms,
this was fairly recent and also

474
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,520
there are many accounts of it.
So and and I think that all goes

475
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,680
to to give veracity to to the
king fall at discourse.

476
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,720
So now that we got that out of
the way what it is, its

477
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,520
circumstances, those sorts of
things.

478
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,520
Let's talk a little bit about
the stuff that jumps out to you

479
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,120
about the King fall at
Discourse, maybe the things you

480
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:38,920
find most important.
All right.

481
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,920
We can do most important and
then we can do a little

482
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,640
nitpicking maybe and and check
out some of the some of the

483
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,360
other interesting stuff.
So I I'd love to just read you a

484
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:48,720
passage or two.
Yeah.

485
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,040
Absolutely full at Discourse.
This is where he starts, and I

486
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,840
think this is brilliant toward
the beginning, he says in the

487
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,800
1st place I wish to go back to
the beginning, to the mourn of

488
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,400
creation.
There's a starting point for us

489
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,800
to look to in order to
understand and be fully

490
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,120
acquainted with the mind,
purposes and decrees of the

491
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,360
great Elohim who sit in Yonder
heavens as they did at the

492
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,040
creation of the world.
It isn't necessary for us to

493
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,280
have an understanding of God
Himself in the beginning.

494
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,560
If we start right, it is easy to
go right all the time.

495
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,640
But if we start wrong, we may go
wrong and it will be a hard

496
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,960
matter to get right.
And this is I think the

497
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,600
interesting part of the matter
is that he wants us to

498
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:38,360
understand God without all the
baggage of Protestantism or

499
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,920
catechisms or anything else he
wants to say.

500
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,120
OK, look, I'm going to give you
the simplest explanation about

501
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,920
who God is.
We have to start at the very

502
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,400
beginning because once you bring
in all this other baggage,

503
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,880
you're going to be confused.
You're going to find it hard

504
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,480
later on, he said.
He says, I know that what I'm

505
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,720
saying might seem
incomprehensible to some, but

506
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,680
it's at the first Prince of the
gospel, no for certainty, the

507
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,560
character of God.
So he's saying, like, look, OK,

508
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,400
set aside all of your
prejudices, all the confusion,

509
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,520
anything you're worried about.
Let's find out who God really

510
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:15,080
is, what is God?
And so that really stands out to

511
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,640
me, because that's basically the
proposition of the whole

512
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,280
Restoration.
If we bring in all of our

513
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,000
baggage, if we bring in all of
our catechisms and our doctrines

514
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,560
and our theologies and our
articles of faith or whatever

515
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,600
else, and we decide that
everything that we learn about

516
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,280
God has to come from this set of
propositions.

517
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:38,000
It has to stay inside the box,
the mental box, whatever mental

518
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,160
box we're in, whatever church
we're in, we're never going to

519
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,480
get it right.
You have to go back to the

520
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,120
beginning and know God in order
to get it right.

521
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,360
OK, so he talks a little bit
about how you know.

522
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,160
Generally we don't understand.
He says the great majority of

523
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,600
mankind do not comprehend
anything either which is past or

524
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,920
that which is to come, as it
respects the relationship to

525
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,160
God.
They do not know, neither do

526
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:04,880
they understand the nature of
that relationship.

527
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,200
And consequently they know but
little above a brute beast in a

528
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:09,920
little more than to eat, drink
and sleep.

529
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,600
This is all man knows about God
whose existence lenses given to

530
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,920
him by the inspiration of the
Almighty says, I want to ask

531
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,120
this congregation.
So here's so here's the other

532
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,320
thing that he he does fairly
near the beginning that I think

533
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,040
is a good point.
He's going to ask us a question

534
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,320
for us to think about to
meditate on.

535
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,520
So here, dear listener to the
One Renegade podcast, light

536
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,960
right.
Let's you and I, Dave, let's

537
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,160
look at this.
How can we answer this question?

538
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,200
Right, He says.
Ask yourself in your own heart

539
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,360
what kind of being is God?
Ask yourselves.

540
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,360
Turn your thoughts into your
hearts and ask if any of you

541
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:51,960
have seen, heard or communed
with Him.

542
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,160
Thinking on this question may
occupy your attention for a long

543
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,920
time.
So I again repeat the question,

544
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,520
What kind of being is God?
Do you know?

545
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:03,920
Have you seen him?
Heard him?

546
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:09,520
Have you communed with him?
Let this question peradventure

547
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,520
from this time henceforth occupy
your attention.

548
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,680
For the Scriptures inform us
that this is life eternal,

549
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,560
although they might know thee,
the only true God in Jesus

550
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:23,680
Christ, who now is sent.
And he says, if any man does not

551
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,480
know God and inquires what kind
of being he is, and will search

552
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,400
diligently on his own heart.
If the declaration of Jesus and

553
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,480
the Apostles be true, he will
realize then that he does not

554
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,360
have eternal life, for there can
be eternal life and no other

555
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,200
principle.
Just for a point of reference

556
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,840
real quick, let me ask a
question.

557
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:47,960
What is most people's conception
of who God is in this time?

558
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,840
Right.
What kind of being are they in

559
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,840
this time 'cause I think this is
important to show just how

560
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,200
radical this is.
Sure, the I think most people

561
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:58,640
will be like, well, I know what
God is.

562
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,160
I've read the catechisms.
I've read the articles of faith.

563
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,960
There is a holy God who fills
the immensity of space, who's

564
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,680
omnipotent, omniscient,
omnipresent.

565
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,920
He is big enough to fill the
universe and small enough to to

566
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:20,080
live within my heart.
And he's without beginning of

567
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:21,520
days, certain of years.
He's immortal.

568
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,920
He's he's spiritual, he's, he
lives in heaven.

569
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,320
He's.
Or maybe he's just a a big old

570
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,400
man with a big white beard,
right?

571
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,800
These are the types of things
that people even now generally

572
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,400
think when they think what is
God.

573
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,360
If I were to just say I'm OK,
I'm from some faraway land.

574
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:41,720
I do not know what this word
means in English.

575
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,320
Explain it to me.
What's what's, a God?

576
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,200
What's God?
These are the types of things

577
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,840
that people will say, and those
are probably the things they

578
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,680
thought all the time, as well as
the various explanations of the

579
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,040
Trinity, whether they're
heretical according to the

580
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,960
various Christians or non
heretical.

581
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,520
Most of the time people will
have these different conceptions

582
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,440
of God that God is a Father Son
and Holy Spirit or that God is a

583
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:12,239
a Trinity or that God is came
amongst us in the person of

584
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,480
Jesus Christ.
But that doesn't entirely

585
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,600
explain what God is right and
and I think that's why he's

586
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,840
saying look until you know for
yourself you don't understand

587
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,360
anything right.
You have to know for yourself

588
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,199
and and so for example This is
why I think it's so important.

589
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,960
The first vision it's so
important not because it proves

590
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,880
something about the Trinity for
us to change the catechism over

591
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,760
as much as it what it really
does is it shows you how

592
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,880
unnecessary A catechism or a
doctrine.

593
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,960
I'm sorry Bruce or Mccock you
like a book like Mormon doctrine

594
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:50,520
is all of those things are
window dressing Mormonism is

595
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,679
seeing God in the Grove for
yourself right.

596
00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:59,200
Mormonism isn't to understand a
certain set of propositions

597
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,040
about who God is or isn't on the
top of the mountain, in the case

598
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,080
of the Greek gods and mono
Olympus, or even dwelling in his

599
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,960
holy temple.
In terms of the Abrahamic God,

600
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,320
until you know, until you
experience for yourself, you

601
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,040
don't fully know, right?
And he's like, if you think

602
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,960
about it, anybody who doesn't
know God, if they search within

603
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,600
their mind, they're going to
realize that they don't have

604
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,840
eternal life.
His eternal life can only come

605
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,680
by direct knowledge of God, and
so this is really where he

606
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,520
starts.
He wants to explain who God is

607
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,480
in a way that people will begin
to understand it more fully than

608
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,760
just what they've always
thought, that God is out there

609
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:49,200
in heaven somewhere, or that he
is a feeling.

610
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,880
God is love, for example.
What does that really mean?

611
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,440
How can you connect with it?
And if God is this great being

612
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,720
outside the universe, it's the
primal cause, or the first

613
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:04,440
'cause of all things?
Like Saint Thomas Aquinas wanted

614
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,680
to call God the first 'cause
because he didn't like the

615
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,080
mathematical proposition of
infinite regression of the gods.

616
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,440
Well, then what?
But what does that mean?

617
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,000
What does that mean?
Can there be a thing without a

618
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,680
cause?
Does he exist at all?

619
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,320
You know, let me bring this down
to another way.

620
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:30,160
I was listening to K Love radio,
Christian pop radio, right.

621
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,920
And there's a song that that it
went along with a a movie that

622
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,800
they had not too long ago.
God's not dead, right.

623
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,120
And the song says, God's not
dead.

624
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,840
He's fully alive.
He's living on the inside.

625
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,480
He's roaring like a lion.
And I'm like, So what you're

626
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,040
telling me is, is you're saying
God's not dead because he lives

627
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,840
in your heart.
Not a terrible argument, but not

628
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,520
a great one either.
Because my loved ones that I've

629
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:05,040
lost, they live on in my heart,
but they are dead as to the

630
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,480
things in this world.
And if your God is only alive

631
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:14,480
because he's in your heart, what
makes him any more alive, any

632
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,200
more impactful in this world
than my loved ones I've lost?

633
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,240
What about my grandparents?
What about my friends?

634
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:26,040
They're gone.
They're still living in my

635
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,600
heart, but I don't expect them
to save me.

636
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,720
I want a God that has the power
to truly open the grave, to

637
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,920
truly part the Red Sea, to truly
do all those things.

638
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,480
Why?
Because I have my own Red Sea to

639
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,360
cross.
I have my own fears and

640
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,480
problems, and I need to have a
God that isn't just alive in my

641
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,680
heart.
I want him alive out here too,

642
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,360
in the world in a way that he
can have a real power and a real

643
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:02,920
effect on my life.
And and I think that that's the

644
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,600
problem, is that most of us
conceive of God in that way.

645
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,000
Like that Christian rock song
that God's alive just simply

646
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,400
because he's in our heart.
But has to be more than that.

647
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,760
Right.
OK, so I want to read you a

648
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:16,560
little more.
Is that all right?

649
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,320
Yeah, please do.
All right, so few more

650
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,040
paragraphs, he says.
I will go back to the beginning,

651
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,600
before the world was to show
what kind of a being God is.

652
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,520
Open your ears in here, all ye
ends of the earth.

653
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,720
Now when a prophet says that, oh
boy, OK, open your ears in here,

654
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:39,560
all ye ends of the earth, for
I'm going to prove it to you by

655
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,480
the Bible and I will tell you
the designs of God in relation

656
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,520
to the human race and why he
interferes in the affairs of

657
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,360
man.
So he's saying, look, I'm going

658
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,040
to tell you who God was and then
you're going to understand your

659
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,240
relationship, why he's involved.
God could have, like, the

660
00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:01,320
deists, it's called belief, like
it's the watchmaker theory,

661
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:02,840
right?
God could have like set in

662
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,080
motion the universe and then
just kind of like buggered off

663
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,120
and been like, I don't really
care about it.

664
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,960
I mean, I made it, but like you
know, I'm moving on to my next

665
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,440
project.
Right.

666
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,400
But that's not the kind of being
that we believe in, in

667
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:16,680
Mormonism.
It's not the kind of being

668
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,240
Joseph Smith believed in, he
says.

669
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:22,120
I'm gonna explain why he cares.
I'm not just gonna explain that

670
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,360
he's great because we all know
God is great.

671
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,560
I'm gonna explain why God wants
to have any influence in your

672
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,240
life.
Why does God care about

673
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:33,600
Benjamin?
Why does God care about Dave or

674
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,560
any of the rest of us?
He's like, I'm gonna, he's

675
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,680
basically saying I'm gonna
explain to you why God cares

676
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:46,560
about Dave, right?
He says God himself was once as

677
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,800
we are now and is an exalted man
and sits enthroned in Yonder

678
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,800
heavens.
That is the great secret if the

679
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,400
veil were rent today.
And the great God, who holds

680
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,520
this world in its orbit, and who
upholds all worlds and all

681
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,600
things by his power were to make
himself visible.

682
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:10,120
I say if you were to see him
today, you would see him as a

683
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,280
man in form, like yourselves, in
all the person image in very

684
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:19,200
form, as a man.
For Adam was created in the very

685
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,240
fashion image and likeness of
his father, and he received

686
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:24,520
instruction from him, and walked
and talked and converse with him

687
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,720
just as one man talks and
communes with another.

688
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,320
Go ahead, knew you were gonna
say something.

689
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,440
I would point out that this
that's the most often quoted

690
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:44,160
paragraph that I could really
get to in this whole talk.

691
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:49,240
There's a bunch of other stuff
in here, but that right there is

692
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:53,920
the most direct teachings about
the nature of man and God,

693
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,760
right?
It's the most bold thing he

694
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,160
could have said, and maybe the
most blasphemous from certain

695
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,760
points of view.
The idea that there is no

696
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,080
difference between God and man
when you say man.

697
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:14,920
A man is a God in embryo and God
is a man in all his perfection,

698
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:22,040
A perfected man.
And that breaking down, that

699
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:27,720
distinction between man, sinful
man, and God, exalted God and

700
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:30,040
saying no, no, it's one and the
same.

701
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,920
That's what was so revolutionary
here.

702
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,960
And I would say that almost all
of the uniquely Mormon doctrines

703
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:41,760
come down to this.
Why do we seal parents to

704
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,000
children?
Why do we do the work for the

705
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,200
dead?
Why do we believe in different

706
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,240
degrees of glory in heaven?
Why do we talk about becoming

707
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,440
like God?
Why is it that we apparently

708
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,400
think that we should get our own
planet?

709
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,080
The way some people put it, This
is why.

710
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:02,800
Because it's he's basically
saying there is no fundamental

711
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,880
difference between the human
nature and the divine nature.

712
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,920
They're the same.
And that's the great secret.

713
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:12,720
This is what he calls it, the
great secret.

714
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:20,440
Because all of mysticism, all of
religion just dissolves into one

715
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:26,600
simple understanding the moment
you can truly believe this.

716
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,880
And I think that's why he
challenged us at the beginning.

717
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,200
You're going to have to set
aside all your notions.

718
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,400
You're going to have to set
aside whatever you think.

719
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,000
You don't know who God is until
you know him.

720
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,800
And when you know him, you're
going to find out he's a man,

721
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:46,560
and he's, since he's an exalted
man, that leads to the next

722
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,960
conclusion.
We can become exalted too.

723
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,720
Yeah, as I.
I also want to point out that

724
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,440
this is an Adam God passage.
People say, oh, Brigham Young

725
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,520
came up with Adam, God.
Now Joseph Smith taught Adam

726
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,880
God.
He taught it explicitly to the

727
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,680
Council of 50, as you can read
in the Council of 50 minutes

728
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,560
from now in the Josephine Papers
project.

729
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,480
But even if you set aside that
fairly direct quote where he

730
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,240
says Adam is a God, you've still
got Doctrine, Covenant, Section

731
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:18,680
27 and a bunch of other places
where he specifically says what

732
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,800
is the divine nature?
And then immediately says

733
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,000
because it's Adam.
And that's basically what he

734
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,360
says here.
God is an exalted man.

735
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,240
And how do I know God's an
exalted man?

736
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:36,080
Because Adam is a God,
basically.

737
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,200
He says right here, he says he's
just like you, he's just like

738
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,680
you.
And Adam was created in the very

739
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,040
fashionable image and likeness
of his father.

740
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,280
Right.
And so, you know, there's

741
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,000
there's some people like Bruce
Mcconkey and Joseph Fielding

742
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,360
Smith, and I'll give them some
space here to say no, no, no,

743
00:43:54,960 --> 00:44:00,440
Adam of the Bible is not God.
God is Adam's father.

744
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,640
And I simply, I simply don't
believe that that that that

745
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,680
distinction matters.
If it matters to any of the

746
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,320
listeners, embrace it, it's
fine.

747
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:14,560
But I think that the main point
isn't about whether or not Adam

748
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,280
is the father or Adam is the son
of the father.

749
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,440
The point is, is that Adam is a
child of God and that he is just

750
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,680
like his father, and he is our
father, which means we are just

751
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,040
like our father, which means
that there is a genetic,

752
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,920
biological, spiritual heritage
that comes down from God.

753
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,480
Generation after generation
comes down to us and endows us,

754
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,600
you and me and every living soul
with that same divine nature

755
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,160
that that Joseph Smith is saying
here.

756
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,480
That is it it.
It's not meant to demean God, to

757
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,120
make God equal with man when he,
when he says this, God's a man,

758
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,040
God.
God was once, as we are now, all

759
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:00,880
those things.
A lot of religionists will say

760
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,680
that demeans God because it
takes God down to our level.

761
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,480
But the way I see it, the way I
believe Joseph Smith was

762
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,040
teaching it, that does not
denigrate God.

763
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,440
It exalts man.
Yep.

764
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,480
So excuse me, couple of things
on this.

765
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,760
When when I read that passage, I
remember the first time I read

766
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:33,240
it and what jumped out to me was
for the first time ever since

767
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:40,600
before the Council of Nicaea,
somebody came out and put God in

768
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,280
time and space.
Right.

769
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:48,080
Right now follow me out here.
We we hear our evangelical

770
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,680
brothers and sisters all the
time say, do you have a

771
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,680
relationship with Jesus?
Do you have a relationship with

772
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,000
God?
Right.

773
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,680
It's very hard to have a
relationship with an ethereal

774
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:04,520
force outside of time and space.
That's not a personal being.

775
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,360
That is not something you can
have a relationship with.

776
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,920
What Joseph does here is through
revelation, he is able now to

777
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,040
set God back in his proper
place.

778
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,680
No, no, no.
This is not some ethereal force.

779
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,840
You want a relationship with
deity?

780
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,160
It's yours now.
Because now God, through

781
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:30,000
revelation has told us through
Joseph Smith, he's our dad,

782
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:31,800
right?
At the end of the day, he's our

783
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,000
dad.
And if that is the case, what

784
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,320
dad doesn't want a relationship
with his kids?

785
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,000
And what kid doesn't want a
relationship with his father?

786
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,920
So now, all of a sudden prayer
maybe has a different feel to

787
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,880
it.
You're not praying to some

788
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:52,200
unknown ethereal being that sits
outside of time and space.

789
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,800
No, no, no, no, no.
You're talking to someone who

790
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,440
you share genetics with.
Not just spiritual genetics.

791
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:02,160
Physical genetics with this
takes.

792
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,080
And he's still worried about how
this, how this thing is going,

793
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,040
right.
He's like, Oh my goodness, I've

794
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,120
got all these.
I've got all these great, great,

795
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:14,240
great grandkids and I'm part of
their life because I want to be

796
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:16,600
part of their life.
I'm part of their life because

797
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,840
this is my family.
When when it says in the pearly

798
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,960
great price, this is my work of
my glory to bring past the

799
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,160
immortality and the eternal life
of man.

800
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,400
Why does God care?
Why is it His glory to be

801
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,680
connected to mankind?
It's His glory to be connected

802
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:34,840
to mankind because He is part of
mankind.

803
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,520
And if he, the more of his
children that he can raise up,

804
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,680
teach right, bring to the same
joy that he has, bring to the

805
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,680
same level that he's at the
greater joy he has because then

806
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,280
we're part of his family, we get
to come back and be part of the

807
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,600
family reunion then, right?
And and the more of us that are

808
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,840
lost, well, that's a pity
because he wants us all to show

809
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,320
up to that family dinner.
Yeah, the the other thing I

810
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:07,360
think that this doctrine really
does is for for the breadth of

811
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,760
Christendom's history, mankind.
And certainly we can see

812
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,000
passages in the Book of Mormon
that allude to this.

813
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:19,680
But for so long there was this
idea that our our flesh and our

814
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,400
bone were impediments to having
a relationship with God.

815
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,560
This now turns out on our on his
head a little bit.

816
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,520
If God's like I am, if if he's
got a body, if he's got parts

817
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:38,960
and passions, and he has a place
in time and space, then is is my

818
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:46,600
humanity really a a a stumbling
block on my way to try to see

819
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,680
who God is?
Does does does the flesh really

820
00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:57,000
an issue?
So when when we reference this

821
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,880
part of King Follett with say
what I believe it's Mosiah where

822
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,120
where it said you know the
natural man has been an enemy to

823
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,800
God.
Mm hmm.

824
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,680
Basically saying it and.
So we worry about that, right?

825
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,680
We worry about that division.
Like, OK, I'm a I'm a man.

826
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,480
I'm a natural man.
I'm the enemy of God.

827
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,000
And and Jesus did say some
things like look, call not that

828
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,400
me good, he said.
Don't even call me Jesus.

829
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,120
Good.
There's only one who's good.

830
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,880
It's God, right?
All men are fallen, all men are

831
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:30,560
lost.
I I think the thing that forgive

832
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,560
me for bringing in some non
Mormonism here.

833
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:33,480
No, you're.
Good.

834
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,320
But one of the best ways to
explain this in my mind, it

835
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,240
actually comes from Buddhism.
Here's the question.

836
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,760
Do we have a human nature that
can be overcome by a divine

837
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:50,000
nature so that we're lost and
fallen and bad?

838
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,760
But then Jesus gives us a divine
nature.

839
00:49:52,760 --> 00:50:00,440
Or is it that we have a divine
nature that's covered up by sin

840
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,080
and error, and all it needs to
be is liberated from that, those

841
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,400
delusions liberated from
whatever's covering up our

842
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,720
divine nature to set us free to
be who we truly are?

843
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,800
And I think that this, this
changes the nature of what sin

844
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,560
is in such a way that I.
This is one of the reasons why I

845
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,000
believe it's true.
The Devil constantly whispers in

846
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,400
our ear.
I'm here, and that means you

847
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,920
failed.
I'm here tempting you.

848
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,680
And therefore you're bad.
You have desires that are

849
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,760
forbidden, and therefore you by
nature are evil.

850
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,680
God hates you.
God will despise you, right?

851
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,360
This is what the devil whispers
in our ear.

852
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,600
And so we come to hate the flesh
or hate ourselves for not being

853
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,200
good enough.
Nobody lives up to their highest

854
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,920
ideals all the time.
We are going to make these

855
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:49,560
mistakes and the devil whispers
in our ear.

856
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,440
It's because your nature is
flawed.

857
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,680
Your nature is bad.
But I reject that idea.

858
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,280
I think it's exactly the
opposite.

859
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,040
There is a lot of muck in this
world.

860
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:05,280
But that, that muck, that error,
that delusions, attachments,

861
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,960
sins, all that stuff is just
stuff that's on top of our

862
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,440
divine nature.
Our divine nature within is

863
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,240
still just as divine, just as
holy, just as worthy, even in

864
00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:18,320
spite of our sins as it ever has
been.

865
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,160
Because the worth of a soul is
great in the sight of God.

866
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,280
This, But he wants to remove all
that stuff that separates us

867
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,240
from Him and liberate us to be
like He is.

868
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:34,840
Liberate us to be our true
selves, because our true self is

869
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,360
the divine nature.
Right and and.

870
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,120
And so that's just two different
ways to look at.

871
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,400
It yeah.
And and to go along with that we

872
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,000
can't be whole.
We can't be as God is without

873
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:52,840
our humanity intact including
our bodies and and this this

874
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,240
takes that notion of of well of
course we can't really

875
00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:01,120
comprehend it because you know
we got this body and this body

876
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:06,760
subject to passions and to and
limitations and and for the

877
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,240
first time ever somebody says
well funny God just spoke to me

878
00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:16,080
and he says no, no no that's
that doesn't have to be that way

879
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,800
And and it's a very hopeful
message.

880
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:20,560
Right.
And and that's the other thing I

881
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:25,600
think is important that that it
is borne out is that this is a

882
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,400
hopeful message.
This should be a message we

883
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,000
should all be able to get behind
because it it's one of

884
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,040
hopefulness, right It it's one
that who that makes Christ's

885
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:38,760
atonement so much more effective
throughout.

886
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,160
Yeah, our life well and and I
love that you say it's a hopeful

887
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:43,360
message.
It's a good message.

888
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:44,720
I'm sorry.
And I was just thinking to

889
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:47,560
myself, are you saying that this
is good news?

890
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,760
Yeah, absolutely.
I am, yeah, right.

891
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:54,800
This is the gospel of Jesus
Christ and the restoration of

892
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:59,080
the gospel is to is to get these
keys of knowledge so that all of

893
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,640
a sudden we can plug them back
into the word of God.

894
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,400
These are the plain and precious
truths that Nephi feared were

895
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,000
lost.
I believe when you we have these

896
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:12,400
plain and precious truths then
you read the Bible different and

897
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,880
all of a sudden it comes alive
in a new way, in a way that is

898
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,800
good news for the soul and
therefore it is the gospel and

899
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,280
the restored gospel Jesus
Christ.

900
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:25,040
To truly understand these
things, it's it's a great thing.

901
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:26,560
And actually it is for
consolation.

902
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,960
I I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna read another quote here

903
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,960
because that's the next thing he
says, he says, I tell you these

904
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,960
things in order that you might
understand the subject of the

905
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,720
dead for the consolation of
those who mourn for the loss of

906
00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:48,240
their friends.
He says it is necessary for that

907
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:49,960
consolation that we should
understand the character and

908
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,160
being of God and how he came to
be.

909
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:56,360
So for I am going to tell you
how God came to be God.

910
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,240
And again this is something that
the world's Christianity will

911
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:05,160
often say blasphemy.
God's always been God.

912
00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:07,920
But he says, let me.
But he says this will help you

913
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,080
understand.
This will help you not mourn for

914
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:12,600
your friends.
This is the good news.

915
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,080
This is the good news of the
resurrection is the good news of

916
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,600
the gospel.
If you could understand how God

917
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,640
came to be God, he said.
It has been imagined and

918
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:25,600
supposed by by most that God was
God from all eternity.

919
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,480
I will refute that idea and take
away the veil, so that you may

920
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,120
see.
Right.

921
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,760
Which is crazy, because of
course, even Joseph Smith

922
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,120
himself says plenty of other
places.

923
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,320
The God is from all eternity to
all eternity without beginning

924
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,760
days or end of years.
But in what sense?

925
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,880
OK, in what sense does each
thing mean each thing?

926
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:50,680
And this is where you run into
the some of these difficulties.

927
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:52,560
And one of the reasons why I end
up referring to Eastern

928
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,440
philosophy from time to time to
try to reconcile these things.

929
00:54:55,720 --> 00:55:00,160
There's something in Zen
Buddhism called a koan KOAN,

930
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,360
where you kind of have to
confront a contradiction.

931
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:09,240
You have to confront a
contradiction where it's the

932
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:12,160
truth has to be something deeper
than what you normally think

933
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,360
about, just to make you think a
little bit differently.

934
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,880
My daughter, she's about to be
in a production of Fiddler on

935
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,240
the Roof.
And the Toward the beginning of

936
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:24,720
the Fiddler on the Roof, some
people are arguing in front of

937
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:27,800
Tevya, kind of the the father
figure of the family.

938
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,720
That's the main, the main family
in the play.

939
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,760
And the one guy makes the point,
he goes, oh, you're right.

940
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,600
And the other guy makes the
point, he goes, oh, you're

941
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:37,560
you're right.
And the third guy says, wait a

942
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:39,400
second, you're telling me he's
right and he's right.

943
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,600
They can't both be right.
And Tevya says you are also

944
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:50,000
right, you know, and so here's
the thing, is God and God from

945
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,720
all eternity.
Yes, God transcends time.

946
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:57,160
But so long as you're thinking
time limited, we have to tell

947
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,280
you in the time limited way in
which God can be to be God.

948
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,040
And if you think in the time
unlimited way, then God has

949
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,400
always been God, so how can both
be true?

950
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,440
And he tries to explain that
because he says, though this may

951
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:15,760
seem as an incomprehensible idea
to some, they're simple.

952
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,200
It is the first principle, the
gospel, to know for a certainty

953
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:24,280
the character, character of God,
that we may know that we can

954
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:29,320
converse with him just as one
man converses with another, that

955
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,000
he was once a man like us.
Yeah, that God himself, the

956
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,560
Father of us, all, dwelt on the
earth as soon as Jesus Christ

957
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,720
himself did.
And I will show it to you from

958
00:56:37,720 --> 00:56:46,560
the Bible.
So he gives us this challenge.

959
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,680
Let's reconcile the two.
God is always an eternal God.

960
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:59,160
God also became a God, and now
he says we're going to have to

961
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,400
look at it in the term of terms
of the Bible.

962
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:07,200
And so he turns to the very
first word of the Bible.

963
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,920
He says I shall comment on the
very first word in the Bible in

964
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,320
Hebrew, and I'll make a comment
on the very first sentence in

965
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,920
the history of the creation of
the Bible, Derashit.

966
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,560
And he wants to analyze that
word.

967
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,600
And it turns out there's three
different interpretations of

968
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,840
which Joseph Smith mentions 1
alternative.

969
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:35,560
So be Rashit is can mean either
beginning, but but that's where

970
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,360
the BU comes from.
The B at the beginning was BU,

971
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:44,920
and then Rashit is beginning or
creation, which is also the word

972
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:50,920
for the sun, and it is also the
word for the head.

973
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,440
Why?
Because the Prince of all is the

974
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:59,800
Son of God, and the Prince is
the head of the family, the head

975
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:05,000
of the bloodline, and so forth.
So it's often translated in the

976
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,400
beginning.
God created the heavens and the

977
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,840
earth.
By the way, the the does not

978
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,120
exist in the Hebrew.
It's not in the beginning.

979
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,120
It's just in beginning.
And that's only if you take one

980
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:18,680
of these three interpretations.
It could also be the head of the

981
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,600
gods, which is where Joseph
Smith is going to go with this,

982
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:27,640
or it could be by the sun.
And so here Joseph Smith says,

983
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:31,640
let's look at this, by it.
And through it became everything

984
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:36,320
else.
And Roch the Rocheit at that

985
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:44,680
point means the head.
And so he claims, when the when

986
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,320
the inspired man wrote it, there
was not the the letter B, the

987
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:52,400
the the bet there.
An old man without any authority

988
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,480
out of the word.
He thought it was too bad to

989
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:59,760
begin to talk about the head.
It read first he it, so we

990
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,680
should understand that it read
it first.

991
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,400
The head of the gods brought
forth the gods.

992
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,200
And so he claims that that's the
true meaning of the words.

993
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:15,960
And it's interesting that no
matter how you slice it it, it

994
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:17,400
doesn't mean what most people
think it means.

995
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:18,840
So he's saying I'm going to
prove this to you from the

996
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,280
Bible.
And then he goes back to the

997
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,920
very first word of the Bible,
which is interesting because he

998
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,520
said at the beginning, if we
start right, we may go right.

999
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,800
If we start wrong, we it's a
very hard matter to get right.

1000
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,520
And so he's saying from the
beginning, it's about the head

1001
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,840
of the gods calling the counsel
of the gods instead of saying in

1002
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,240
the beginning God created the
heaven and the earth as it

1003
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,360
appears under King James.
And not even just in beginning

1004
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,800
God created heaven and earth, as
more modern translators would

1005
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,160
often put it.
He's saying it should read the

1006
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:55,360
head of the gods called forth
the heavens to the counsel of

1007
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:56,680
the gods.
Wow.

1008
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,120
And the alternate reading that
I've found since that some

1009
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:07,440
Hebrew scholars say this is this
is controversial to Hebrew

1010
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,800
scholars.
Unless they're Christian, of

1011
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:14,800
course, it could be to say.
The Son of God, God called forth

1012
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:20,160
called forth all the gods.
That's a different take now,

1013
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:21,520
isn't it?
Right.

1014
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,360
And that's a different take as
to what the first verse of the

1015
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:29,080
Bible can mean.
And I would submit, not being a

1016
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,560
fundamentalist in this sense
myself about inerrancy or or any

1017
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,440
of that stuff, but being a
fundamentalist in the Mormon

1018
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,800
sense, I would say it means all
three.

1019
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,680
Right.
Because I don't believe in

1020
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:47,000
having a strict interpretation.
The the genius of the original

1021
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:51,640
Hebrew is that it actually does
mean all of those things and

1022
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:53,080
there's just different ways to
look at it.

1023
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:55,960
I like to I like to think of it
this way.

1024
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:59,000
Whenever we're trying to learn a
true principle, I usually see it

1025
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:02,520
as like there's a telestial
understanding or an introductory

1026
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,120
or surface level understanding.
There's a terrestrial

1027
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,640
understanding which is better,
that is more of the in depth,

1028
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:12,880
meaningful, powerful way of
looking at it.

1029
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,280
And then there's a celestial way
of looking at it which is only

1030
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:18,600
comprehended by the spirit of
God.

1031
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:21,000
It's it's not even just beyond
the surface level, it's a

1032
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:25,440
mystical understanding.
And that's basically what I see

1033
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,280
in these three different levels
of interpretation.

1034
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:33,240
He's giving us this one here.
So if it's if, it means in

1035
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,720
beginning the head of the gods
called the Council of Gods, or

1036
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:41,560
in the beginning of or in or in
beginning the Son of God brought

1037
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,840
the council summoned to the
council of the gods.

1038
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,480
They he.
This is on what is now page 8

1039
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,840
under usually the title A
Council of the Gods.

1040
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:55,200
He says they came together and
concocted or prepared a plan to

1041
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:59,400
create the world and people it.
Want more from the Mormon

1042
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,120
Renegade Podcast?
Head over to the Mormon Renegade

1043
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:07,040
Rumble page to see all the
videos from the podcast and the

1044
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:09,160
Fundamental news Program for
free.

1045
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:13,600
Still not enough?
Then join the Mormon Renegade

1046
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,640
Locals page by clicking the red
join button.

1047
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:21,200
And for $5 a month, you can have
access to podcast transcripts,

1048
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:25,800
Renegade exclusives, as well as
weekly live stream show with the

1049
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:29,760
host Dave Sanders.
Click the link in this episode's

1050
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,760
show notes today.
They came together and concocted

1051
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,240
or prepared a plan to create the
world and people it.

1052
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,600
So this is the where the idea of
a plan comes from, a plan of

1053
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,560
salvation.
And so I would admit, I would

1054
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:47,600
submit that every every kid
who's gone to Sunday school in

1055
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:50,520
Mormonism and has seen the
little diagram of the plan of

1056
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:55,400
salvation, the reason why we
turned it into that is because

1057
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:57,400
is largely because of this
discourse.

1058
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,160
It is that influential in
Mormonism.

1059
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:04,280
I heard a little joke that, you
know, if you ask a Buddhist or

1060
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,120
or a Hindu what happens after
you die, they'll start

1061
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:11,000
explaining reincarnation to you.
If you ask a Muslim, he'll talk

1062
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,600
about the day of judgment.
If you talk talk to a Christian,

1063
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:14,960
they'll tell you about heaven
and hell.

1064
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:19,440
But if you ask a Mormon what
happens after we die, he will

1065
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:24,400
draw you a map.
And there's a surveyor I can

1066
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:26,320
respect that.
There you go.

1067
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:30,840
Surveyor I, I, I, I, I can, I
can totally get behind that.

1068
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:36,040
You know, I want to talk why
we're still in this this part

1069
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:39,760
here, this, this beginning part.
I want to talk about what Joseph

1070
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:44,120
says about if we start right,
it's easier to go right in

1071
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:48,960
surveying and as well as in in
trig in general, there's what's

1072
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,720
called latitudes and departures,
right?

1073
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:57,520
So it says, OK, at the source,
if you have this error, how far

1074
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:01,480
is it out of foot?
And we'll just take like half a

1075
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,400
degree, right?
Half a degree.

1076
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,200
You're out a half a degree.
You're not going to see it in

1077
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,920
two feet.
You won't probably really see

1078
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:16,440
much in 10 feet, but the farther
out you go, the wider the error

1079
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:17,800
becomes.
Right.

1080
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:20,480
So if you're measuring from the
base of Meridian all the way

1081
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:23,040
down to the other end of the
state or something, and you're

1082
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:26,200
off by half a degree, it's a
pretty big problem by the time

1083
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:28,600
you get out to Eastern or
Southern Utah.

1084
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,720
You're you're hundreds, if not
thousands of feet away from your

1085
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:34,920
destination, right?
And that's so important here,

1086
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:38,040
what Joseph's trying to tell
you, which is get your bearing

1087
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,760
and then hold this course
because if you get off even a

1088
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:45,200
little bit here you're gonna get
yourself pulled in the weeds and

1089
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:50,160
and it's it's, I think it's a
very short line to draw to to

1090
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:51,520
see how that happened.
Right.

1091
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:55,080
I mean once the apostles were
all killed off and we were in

1092
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:59,040
the the the midst of of the
great apostasy, there was all

1093
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:03,000
sorts of ideas about who this
God and this Jesus was.

1094
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:07,360
Right and the Holy Spirit.
And out of that we get something

1095
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:12,040
that I'm sorry is is as
confusing as the Trinity.

1096
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:16,800
So, so that this idea of
starting right and and This is

1097
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:20,160
why when when guys have come to
me or people have come to me and

1098
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:23,880
said hey, I think I'm a
fundamentalist, I'm like, OK,

1099
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:28,120
let's talk about this I are.
You sure you want all that

1100
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,000
baggage that comes with being a
Morgan fundamentalist?

1101
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:33,840
Right, right.
And and so I'm always like, OK,

1102
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:37,000
well let's start with the nature
of God and work from there,

1103
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:39,800
because that's really going to
be the most important thing.

1104
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:42,960
Furthermore, if you can get your
mind wrapped around King Follett

1105
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,560
and Adam God, nothing else is
gonna freak you out.

1106
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,240
So it's a good litmus.
Test too but.

1107
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,560
But that's that's that's kind of
the truth here and I think

1108
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,840
Joseph's hitting hitting this
right on get your bearing and

1109
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,200
stay locked in or else you're
gonna get pulled off in the

1110
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,800
weeds.
And I, you know we we've heard

1111
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:06,720
and seen of of various different
ideas about the godhead that

1112
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,360
really just cause confusion
unless you can somehow pin it

1113
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:16,640
back to this and and it becomes
super important because as

1114
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:20,320
Joseph alludes to you know in
John where it says this is life

1115
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:24,640
eternal.
No, no God and and Jesus Christ

1116
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,920
his son who he sent that that's
the key right.

1117
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:30,960
Whether whether that's
everything we do in church or

1118
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:34,040
everything that we do in the
temple, it's kind of all geared

1119
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:37,560
towards understanding who he is,
not for the sake of knowing him.

1120
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:39,320
It's not like God's an
egomaniac.

1121
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:42,280
It's like, no, no, no, you you
gotta you gotta figure this out.

1122
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:46,000
Why is it important?
So that we know what we're

1123
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:48,400
becoming.
Well, and this is an interesting

1124
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:53,480
point in mentioning ego, right?
This is this is the real hang up

1125
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:56,800
that people have with this
usually is ego.

1126
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:00,880
We don't necessarily want the
responsibility.

1127
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,840
I think a lot of people either
don't want the responsibility of

1128
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:06,600
having a divine nature or they
fear the hubris that may come if

1129
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,200
they think that they have a
divine nature.

1130
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:12,440
I think that a lot of times
people's ego get in, gets in the

1131
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,040
way because they get confused
about, especially in Adam, God,

1132
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:18,920
they get confused about, well,
what about the mortal nature

1133
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:23,680
versus the divine nature?
If Adam is a God, what about him

1134
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:27,160
falling?
If you know and and people have

1135
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:29,400
the same hang up when it comes
to Christianity, this has been a

1136
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:31,520
huge debate.
And Christianity, like I was

1137
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:34,040
saying with between the Coptics
and the Oriental Orthodox and

1138
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:36,440
then the Catholic and the
Eastern Orthodox and and the

1139
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:42,520
Nestorian Christians, huge huge
fights about the nature of God

1140
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:45,640
and usually comes down to big
questions about the nature of

1141
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:49,760
man.
Because it is kind of about us

1142
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,680
and about all these doctrines.
All these ideas aren't just

1143
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:55,400
about God.
They're about our relationship

1144
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:56,760
to God.
Therefore they're about our

1145
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,640
nature and the ego.
Mind really revolts at this

1146
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,480
because the ego doesn't want to
have to either take the

1147
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:08,080
responsibility of having a
divine nature, nor does it want

1148
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:11,040
to embrace the fact that if
that's true, then so much of

1149
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:14,040
what the ego thinks it is so
much of what we think we

1150
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:16,359
identify with.
We identify with our pain, we

1151
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:19,800
identify with our attachments,
we identify with our sins.

1152
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:24,880
If all that stuff is temporary,
if all that stuff is sin, if

1153
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,439
that is the natural man that is
the enemy to God, then all of us

1154
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:32,560
are going to face an ego death
in order to come to God.

1155
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:37,439
And if you want to look up in
like union psychology or

1156
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,920
anything like that, some of the
risks about the ego death,

1157
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:44,120
there's real fear that comes up
in the mind whenever one is

1158
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,880
faced with this idea that wait a
second, the parts of me that

1159
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:52,560
aren't divine, the parts of me
that are imperfect, those parts

1160
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:55,479
are temporary.
Those parts aren't going to be

1161
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:58,800
resurrected.
Those parts of me that are full

1162
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:00,640
of sin can't be in the presence
of God.

1163
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:08,920
Therefore I'm facing the loss of
those sins or those ideas or

1164
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:12,319
those identities that I'm
attached to.

1165
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:18,880
Losing those attachments is a
hard thing, but this really

1166
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:21,680
helps us.
But, but, but it does matter so

1167
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:27,479
much to give up all of those
ideas of your separateness from

1168
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:29,720
God, your separate nature from
God.

1169
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:33,160
If we want to come to Him, if we
want to come to Him, we have to

1170
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,640
know what He's like so that we
can.

1171
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:39,080
And after giving this
explanation, Joseph Smith says

1172
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:40,840
something very profound about
that.

1173
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:45,120
He says when we understand the
character of God and know how to

1174
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:48,640
come to Him, He begins to unfold
the heavens to us and to tell us

1175
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,080
all about it.
When we are ready to come to

1176
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:56,480
Him, he is ready to come to us.
And I think that that's really

1177
01:09:56,480 --> 01:09:59,080
like the central message of
something like the first vision

1178
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,760
that he's explaining here and
that kind of bookends the

1179
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:03,840
ministry of Joseph Smith, right?
Starts with the first vision,

1180
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:10,440
ends with the king full of
discourse, the the crazy idea.

1181
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:12,800
And you you touched on this.
You touched on this earlier.

1182
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:16,480
Dave is it locates God in time
and space.

1183
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:21,720
It says God is real and you can
meet him in a Grove of trees.

1184
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:27,320
You can go and pray to him and
meet him, but when you do, you

1185
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:30,160
have to be willing to give up
everything.

1186
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,640
You know the but that doesn't
mean you don't have to go

1187
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,760
through the darkness, right?
The don't forget who who came

1188
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,400
first in the first vision and
people say, oh, I guess it was

1189
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:41,120
heavenly Father because he said
this is my beloved son to hear

1190
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:42,320
him.
And it's like, no, no, no.

1191
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:47,520
Before God showed up, the devil
showed up first, and he

1192
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,800
consigned Joseph to a state of
hell.

1193
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:52,880
He bound his tongue that he
could not speak.

1194
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:56,480
He drove him down into the
darkness and not do an imaginary

1195
01:10:56,480 --> 01:10:59,840
ruin.
But to the very real power of an

1196
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:03,120
actual being is the way Joseph
Smith puts it.

1197
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:08,560
The devil's real, right?
And he was, like, almost ready.

1198
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,520
He said he was almost ready to
abandon himself to destruction,

1199
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:13,560
to give in, to say, fine devil,
you win.

1200
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:15,200
Take me to hell.
I I'm not.

1201
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:19,320
I'm not gonna try anymore.
But instead of giving in, he

1202
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:24,120
cried to God for deliverance and
he was delivered.

1203
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:28,920
And isn't that the entire
message of the gospel of Jesus

1204
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:30,640
Christ?
The same thing that Alma

1205
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:31,720
experienced in the Book of
Mormon?

1206
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:34,160
Of course, too right?
And plenty of of the others.

1207
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:36,120
Because everyone has to go
through this experience.

1208
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:41,600
At some point in this life of
the next, you will be in a place

1209
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:45,680
where you are ready to abandon
yourself to destruction, or that

1210
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:48,400
you're so attached to your sin
or your thing that you won't

1211
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:51,320
give it up.
And at that point you have to

1212
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:55,080
remember, you got to let it go,
and you got to reach out to God,

1213
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:57,000
and you got to cry unto him for
your deliverance.

1214
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,440
And then he will hear you.
And that's kind of the message

1215
01:12:01,440 --> 01:12:02,800
here.
God is a man.

1216
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:05,560
He's been through that.
He knows what it is.

1217
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:08,160
He gave it up.
He gave up the attachment.

1218
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:09,560
He gave up the sin that you're
attached to.

1219
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:13,080
He gave up the suffering.
He gave up all those things that

1220
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,840
covered up his divine nature.
That's how God became God.

1221
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:19,760
He released it all, and he was
delivered.

1222
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,640
And so can you.
You know, speaking about the

1223
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:30,520
first vision, I find it
interesting and useful at times

1224
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:35,600
when we're look, no one's
getting out of this thing, this

1225
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:39,720
this experience, without taking
some bumps and bruises.

1226
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:44,320
I I hate to break it to
everybody, but really the path

1227
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:47,680
to godhood is kind of a contact
sport.

1228
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:51,160
We're all gonna experience loss
and suffering and those sorts of

1229
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:55,840
things.
But I can always take comfort in

1230
01:12:55,840 --> 01:13:00,560
that first vision, right?
Because up to this point in his

1231
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:05,720
life, that was both Joe Joseph's
darkest day and his most

1232
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,640
brilliant day is in the in that
first vision.

1233
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:14,520
And they're separated by mere
minutes and seconds.

1234
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:19,240
And I think it's that kind of of
perspective that I think we need

1235
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:22,440
to keep in mind when when we are
suffering, right when we are

1236
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,640
going through those things, is
that it?

1237
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,320
It's gonna pass at some point.
It's gonna pass.

1238
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:30,640
How?
I can't tell you, but it will

1239
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:34,840
pass.
And again, whether it's the

1240
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:37,320
First Vision or King Follett,
these these are hopeful

1241
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:40,280
messages.
These aren't messages of you're

1242
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,960
just a man.
You could never understand or or

1243
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,720
comprehend deity in the
slightest.

1244
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:49,320
No, I'm not saying that we know
everything there is to know

1245
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:51,960
about our father and Heather.
Not, not by and.

1246
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:53,280
There's only so much you can
even teach.

1247
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:55,400
There's only so much, Joseph
Smith even said.

1248
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:56,880
Right.
Exactly.

1249
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:02,200
And and but I think that does
speak to the genuineness of of

1250
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:05,080
the restored gospel is that it's
not enough to read about it.

1251
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:06,960
It's not enough to hear about
it.

1252
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:12,080
You got to go experience it.
And and I I've said this whole

1253
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:15,840
thing that we do as Mormons
should be guiding us to a point

1254
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:19,520
at which we want to stand in the
presence of deity, because

1255
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:23,280
without it, we're we're really
selling the gospel short at that

1256
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:25,000
point.
We should want to.

1257
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:31,520
Yeah, absolutely.
And so after talk saying these

1258
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,280
things about God, he actually
starts talking about the nature

1259
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:37,880
of man, because once again, he's
trying to draw these things

1260
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,200
together, right.
And so I think it's interesting.

1261
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:42,800
He says he can only just touch
on it.

1262
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:47,280
He says he's also going to say
much on this subject.

1263
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:48,760
I shall therefore just touch
upon it.

1264
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:51,280
For time will not permit me to
say all.

1265
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:56,040
And this is associated with the
resurrection of the dead, the

1266
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,920
soul, or the mind of man.
And the immortal spirit, Where

1267
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:02,160
did it come from?
Where did your spirit come from?

1268
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:07,560
He says most all learned men and
doctors of divinity will say

1269
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:09,240
that God created it in the
beginning.

1270
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:13,840
But it is not so.
The very ideal lessons, man, in

1271
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:17,560
my estimation, I do not believe
the doctrine, and I know better

1272
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:20,640
hear it all ye ends of the
world.

1273
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:24,040
For God has told me so.
And if you do not believe me, it

1274
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:26,240
will not make the truth without
effect.

1275
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,080
And I will show you, and I will
make a man appear a fool before

1276
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:31,840
I get through if he does not
believe it.

1277
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:34,320
I'm going to tell you, if things
far more noble.

1278
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,600
We say that God himself isn't a
self existing being who told you

1279
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:41,120
so.
It is correct enough.

1280
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:43,440
But how did he get into your
heads that God is a self

1281
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:47,320
existent being who told you that
man did not exist in like manner

1282
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:51,480
and upon the same principles.
Man does exist upon the same

1283
01:15:51,480 --> 01:15:53,520
principles.
God made a Tabernacle and put a

1284
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:55,800
spirit into it and it became a
living soul.

1285
01:15:56,840 --> 01:15:59,160
How does the Bible read in the
Hebrew?

1286
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:02,720
It does not say in the Hebrew
that God simply created the

1287
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:06,400
spirit of man.
It says God formed man on the

1288
01:16:06,480 --> 01:16:09,280
earth and breathed into his
nostrils the blessed of life and

1289
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,720
he became a living soul.
The mind or intelligence which

1290
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:16,240
man possesses is Co equal with
God himself.

1291
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:20,760
I know that my testimony is
true.

1292
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,200
And so when I talk to these
mourners, right, he's talking to

1293
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,400
the family of King Follette who
have lost, who've lost him, he

1294
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:29,120
says.
When I talk to these mourners,

1295
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,840
what have they lost?
Their relatives and friends are

1296
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,400
only separated from their bodies
for a short season.

1297
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:40,360
Their spirits existed with God
and have left the Tabernacle of

1298
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:42,800
clay, but only for a little
moment, as it were.

1299
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:45,480
They now exist in a place where
they converse together, the same

1300
01:16:45,480 --> 01:16:48,800
as we do on the earth.
I'm dwelling on the immortality

1301
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,400
of the spirit of man.
Is it logical to say that the

1302
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:54,080
intelligence of spirits is
immortal and yet that it would

1303
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:56,680
have a beginning?
The intelligence of spirits had

1304
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:58,320
no beginning, neither will it
have an end.

1305
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:01,360
That is good logic.
That which has a beginning may

1306
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:03,520
have an end.
There never was a time when

1307
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:07,560
there were not spirits, and they
are Co equal with our Father in

1308
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:12,440
heaven.
I am dwelling on the spirit and

1309
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:14,600
body and spirit of man on the
subjects of the dead.

1310
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:17,800
So I will take my ring from my
finger and liken it to the mind

1311
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:20,240
of man, the immortal part,
because it had no beginning.

1312
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:22,880
Even if you cut, if you cut it
in two, then it has a beginning

1313
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:25,480
and it will have an end.
But if you join it again, and it

1314
01:17:25,480 --> 01:17:28,680
continues 1 eternal round, Even
so with the Spirit of man as the

1315
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,920
Lord liveth, for if it had a
beginning, it will have an end.

1316
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:41,440
Let's talk for just a second
about what it means that man,

1317
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:48,240
man's mind, man's consciousness
if you will, is Co eternal with

1318
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:53,200
God coequal I think, he said.
Yeah, he said Co equal.

1319
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:56,000
I think that that could be
interpreted the same as Co

1320
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:59,160
eternal, right?
It's like it existed from all

1321
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,160
eternity.
Which this is interesting too,

1322
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:05,560
because it this really explains
a lot more about theosis or

1323
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:07,440
deification.
This explains a lot more about

1324
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,160
what exaltation means in our
theology.

1325
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:14,760
If we were to, if we are to
become gods, if we are to as as

1326
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:18,200
they say with Jesus.
If Jesus is to say to us, enter

1327
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,760
into my joy and sit down on my
throne, are we out of place

1328
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:25,560
there?
Are we out of place sitting on

1329
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:29,080
the throne of God?
And the answer is no, because we

1330
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:31,880
are also without beginning of
days or end of years.

1331
01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:40,400
We are we are gods from all
eternity, even now in this other

1332
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:43,120
sense.
So again, I'm bringing this back

1333
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:45,560
to that.
How do we reconcile opposites?

1334
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:47,840
How do we find the truth?
We reconcile these opposites.

1335
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:51,600
First we say God was not always
God, God became a God.

1336
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:55,200
And then we're saying God is
eternal and we're also.

1337
01:18:55,240 --> 01:18:57,920
But we're also saying the same
thing about man, man.

1338
01:18:57,920 --> 01:18:59,760
Men are not gods.
I am no God.

1339
01:18:59,920 --> 01:19:03,960
I'm a flawed, mortal man who
makes plenty of mistakes.

1340
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:06,200
And I probably might make a few
more even before I go to bed

1341
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:07,880
tonight, right?
These things happen.

1342
01:19:11,440 --> 01:19:14,720
And yet I have the Co, eternal
divine nature that makes it

1343
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:19,600
possible for me to partake in
the work of God and be a God

1344
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:20,640
from all eternity to all
eternity.

1345
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:25,440
And really that is what the the
name Jehovah means, the sacred

1346
01:19:25,440 --> 01:19:28,920
name of God, Yehovah in the
Hebrew right.

1347
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:35,440
Jehovah means I am right.
And so when Moses asks, asks

1348
01:19:35,440 --> 01:19:38,560
him, who shall I say sent me?
What is the name of this?

1349
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:42,320
If you're if you're God and
you're God of the whole earth, I

1350
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:43,840
have to tell them what God sent
me.

1351
01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:46,760
Was it was it ISIS?
Was it ma'at?

1352
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:49,640
Was it one of these other gods?
Right that that's what the

1353
01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:51,360
that's the way they're thinking
in Egyptian.

1354
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:55,320
What to which God is it?
And he said tell them I am, that

1355
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:57,600
I am, that I exist from all
eternity to all eternity.

1356
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:04,960
That's who I am.
I'm the eternal and yet we are

1357
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:07,200
also eternal is what Joseph
Smith is saying here.

1358
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:10,600
And I think, again, he's not
trying to denigrate God, He's

1359
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:13,200
trying to exalt man.
He's trying to.

1360
01:20:13,440 --> 01:20:16,520
That's why he says I will tell
you of things more noble.

1361
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:23,560
You know, if we're he, you know,
basically I think that of it as

1362
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:27,000
the spark, you know, it's like a
spark of the eternal fire.

1363
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:33,920
We're part of the same eternal
light that existed at the

1364
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:36,280
beginning.
And I think that's what he's

1365
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:39,920
saying.
And so he's, he's trying to say,

1366
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:41,800
look you existed before you were
born too.

1367
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:45,320
We've always existed with God.
So what are we doing here?

1368
01:20:45,440 --> 01:20:46,600
That's kind of what we're
answering.

1369
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:49,680
That's why we're answering some
of these questions just so that

1370
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:50,600
we can understand why we're
here.

1371
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,360
And he says, so the first
principles of man, he says are

1372
01:20:53,360 --> 01:20:57,040
self existent with God.
So God is finding that he was in

1373
01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:00,960
the midst of spirits and glory
because he was more intelligent,

1374
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:04,000
saw property institute laws
whereby the rest could have a

1375
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:05,920
privilege to advance like
himself.

1376
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:08,560
Right.
And he talks about this in the

1377
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:10,080
book of Abraham, of course, as
well.

1378
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:16,720
That look, it's no, it's no
faults of your own, but no one

1379
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,560
is equal, right?
There's always a higher and a

1380
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:23,680
lower intelligence in comparison
to any intelligence, any, any

1381
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:28,920
knowledge.
And so we are, there is no such

1382
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:32,800
thing as equality in that sense.
We all have a we are all

1383
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,000
different.
We all have our own capacities

1384
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:40,640
and talents and yet we all have
the same potential for growth.

1385
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:43,480
That's the one way that we are
equal.

1386
01:21:43,480 --> 01:21:46,440
We are.
And This is why he says we are

1387
01:21:46,440 --> 01:21:48,880
Co equal with God.
He's not saying that God isn't

1388
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:51,160
smarter than you.
OK, God's a lot smarter than all

1389
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:56,000
of us, but he is saying that
that spark of the divine fire is

1390
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:59,600
of the same nature as the divine
fire that keeps the whole

1391
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:00,760
universe in its orbit.
Right?

1392
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:05,120
And so he says the relationship
we have with God places in a

1393
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:07,320
situation to advance in
knowledge.

1394
01:22:08,440 --> 01:22:10,520
He has the power to institute
laws, to instruct the weaker

1395
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:13,520
intelligences that they may be
exalted with himself so that

1396
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:16,920
they might have one glory upon
another and that all knowledge,

1397
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:18,880
power, glory and intelligence
was his requisite in order to

1398
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:20,360
save them in the world of
spirits.

1399
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:27,480
So I feel like what he's saying
is something that I've been

1400
01:22:27,480 --> 01:22:28,840
trying to say for quite some
time.

1401
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:33,520
People worry a little bit about
this idea of Mormons because we

1402
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:34,960
we believe that we can become
like God.

1403
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:37,280
It's like, well, that's pride
right there.

1404
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:40,360
I mean, you think you're equal
Co equal with God, Joseph.

1405
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:43,000
I said we're Co equal with God.
And that is just the most

1406
01:22:43,440 --> 01:22:45,480
blasphemous form of pride
imaginable.

1407
01:22:45,480 --> 01:22:48,600
And they're not entirely wrong.
It sounds that way.

1408
01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:58,160
It sounds like horrible,
horrible pride, but it's it's

1409
01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:01,640
beautiful.
It's so beautiful because it

1410
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:04,520
gives us the chance to progress,
to grow in knowledge.

1411
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:08,160
We're we're saved no faster than
we gain knowledge, he says.

1412
01:23:08,440 --> 01:23:12,040
And so it's about being exalted
together.

1413
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:14,120
And this is the problem.
A lot of times people look at

1414
01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:17,320
that say it's Uber, say it's
pride, say it's it's a sin to

1415
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:19,000
think of yourself as Co equal
with God.

1416
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:26,200
And that's only true insofar as
it relates to your own ego.

1417
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:30,120
But as it relates to the spark
of the divine that is within

1418
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:33,800
you, it is a beautiful saving
doctrine.

1419
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:37,800
We are not going to when we when
we say that we are going to

1420
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:40,400
become gods, we are not saying
that we're going to at some

1421
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:43,960
point throw God off as though he
were some tyrant and go off and

1422
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:46,800
independently become our own
gods, right?

1423
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,320
That's that's what the devil
did.

1424
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:52,760
There's two different paths
here, the path of Christ and the

1425
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:54,880
path of the devil.
And the path of Christ clearly

1426
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:59,160
lays out that he gives no honor
to himself.

1427
01:23:59,440 --> 01:24:04,400
He gives all the honor, all the
glory to God and is simply

1428
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:08,400
counted with him because he
subsumed his ego, got rid of it

1429
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:12,160
enough that he could be of one
heart and one mind with God.

1430
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:15,160
That's what Zion is, right?
Zion is to be of one heart and

1431
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:18,200
one mind with each other and
with God.

1432
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:21,600
Then you're like God.
Then when you then when you

1433
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:23,720
speak in the name of God, you're
not speaking your own will.

1434
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:25,440
You're not speaking your own
pride.

1435
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:31,200
You are speaking for God, right.
And and so when I think about

1436
01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:34,120
this I think it's important this
that's why this is so important

1437
01:24:34,120 --> 01:24:37,240
to point out I I am not saying,
I don't think Joseph Smith is

1438
01:24:37,240 --> 01:24:40,720
saying that we will ever in our
Co equalness with God, ever be

1439
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:42,640
like, all right, I grew out of
you.

1440
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:44,560
I don't need you anymore.
God.

1441
01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:47,200
I can do it on my own.
The moment we do that, we're a

1442
01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:50,600
devil, not a God.
We're a devil, not an Angel.

1443
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:52,920
That's what the devil did.
The devil was like.

1444
01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:54,840
Give me your honor.
I'm awesome.

1445
01:24:57,440 --> 01:25:01,080
That that is pride.
But to recognize your own divine

1446
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:04,200
nature is not pride.
In fact, it should humble us.

1447
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:09,680
Humble us to the dust,
recognizing how much we have

1448
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:16,360
fallen, how much our own divine
nature has been overcome by our

1449
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:20,200
own errors, how much how
desperately we need the

1450
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:25,880
Atonement of Jesus Christ to
overcome all that we've lost in

1451
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:29,440
this fallen world.
Because if the divine nature's

1452
01:25:29,440 --> 01:25:33,920
in you, and it's covered up by
every other mistake, every other

1453
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:39,200
sin, how much more do we need
Christ to help us be liberated

1454
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:41,280
from that and to become the gods
we're meant to be?

1455
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:45,880
And you know, like from the
beginning when you said this is

1456
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:47,400
a hopeful doctrine, this is a
good doctrine.

1457
01:25:47,640 --> 01:25:49,560
And I was like, hey, it's like
the gospel.

1458
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:53,680
The good news.
He explains this in a very fun

1459
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:54,240
way.
Here.

1460
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:57,640
Joseph Smith does.
Joseph Smith says this is good

1461
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:00,240
doctrine.
It tastes good.

1462
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:03,720
I can taste the principles of
eternal life, and so can you.

1463
01:26:07,160 --> 01:26:09,760
I like that analogy.
It's like test.

1464
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:13,040
This word tastes good, doesn't
it?

1465
01:26:15,120 --> 01:26:21,200
And that is why when I look at
these doctrines, when I look at

1466
01:26:21,200 --> 01:26:25,200
Adam, God, when I look at the
King Follette discourse, it

1467
01:26:25,200 --> 01:26:26,400
does.
It tastes good.

1468
01:26:27,840 --> 01:26:31,840
It tastes good because it it's
not there just to stoke my

1469
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:35,880
pride.
It's not there just to satisfy

1470
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:39,040
any mortal need.
It's transcendent.

1471
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:46,160
It's transcendent love.
It's transcendent hope and it,

1472
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:49,840
you know, you can feel it in
your soul, he says.

1473
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:52,360
It tastes good and I can taste
it and soak in you.

1474
01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:56,480
They're given to me by the
revelations of Jesus Christ.

1475
01:26:56,800 --> 01:26:59,840
And I know that when that when I
tell you these words of eternal

1476
01:26:59,840 --> 01:27:04,720
life as they're given to me,
that you taste them and I know

1477
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:08,000
that you believe them.
These interesting says you.

1478
01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:10,880
I know that you're going to
believe these words, even though

1479
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:13,360
there's plenty of people are
going to be like, no, no, I

1480
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:18,720
don't believe this, I'm sorry,
but this is the kind of, this is

1481
01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:21,160
the kind of eggs you can't
unscramble, right?

1482
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:23,240
Maybe we should have put a
trigger warning at the beginning

1483
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:25,360
of this, the beginning of this
episode.

1484
01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:31,960
Two years in and 120 episodes.
They know the trigger warning.

1485
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:34,760
The trigger warning is is once
you ring this bell.

1486
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:38,760
You can never unring this bell.
Once you see and unknown what

1487
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:42,600
God is like who you are, you'll
never read any scripture the

1488
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:45,160
same way ever again.
And this is one of the reasons

1489
01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:48,000
why I say, you know, look,
people may leave, say that

1490
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:50,640
they've left Mormonism, even
anti Mormons are a kind of

1491
01:27:50,640 --> 01:27:54,840
Mormon because some of this
doctrine is so good, so true,

1492
01:27:56,320 --> 01:28:02,280
you can never truly wash it out.
You've once you've heard it.

1493
01:28:02,320 --> 01:28:05,160
Once, you've heard the bell
ring, you can't unring the bell.

1494
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:08,600
It's somewhere in your soul, and
I love that, he says.

1495
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:12,960
You taste them.
I know that you believe them.

1496
01:28:13,280 --> 01:28:16,880
You may say honey is sweet, and
so do I I can also taste the

1497
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:18,640
spirit of eternal life.
I know that it is good.

1498
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:20,960
And when I tell you these
things, which were given by the

1499
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:23,520
special little ghost, you're
bound to receive them as sweet.

1500
01:28:24,480 --> 01:28:26,320
And then?
And then we shall rejoice more

1501
01:28:26,320 --> 01:28:30,400
and more so.
No, that's good stuff.

1502
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:32,960
I want to go back to something
that you had said, 'cause I

1503
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:35,760
think it's worth worth diving
into a little bit.

1504
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:39,560
Sure.
You talked about never catching

1505
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:44,640
up with with our father, right?
Oh yeah, he will always, I will

1506
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:48,000
always give the glory to him.
He's I will never surpass.

1507
01:28:48,440 --> 01:28:50,000
Jesus.
Christ or the Father, right.

1508
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:53,800
Forever and ever and ever.
Even if I'm a God in glory, even

1509
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:56,640
if even if I'm sitting on
Christ's throne with him, I'm

1510
01:28:56,640 --> 01:28:59,680
gonna be deferring to him.
Yeah, that's just how this.

1511
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:04,120
Works absolutely.
And sometimes I think it's even

1512
01:29:04,120 --> 01:29:06,320
a little bit simpler than that,
right.

1513
01:29:07,480 --> 01:29:10,520
We ponder these things and these
are great things to ponder.

1514
01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:13,040
But I think it's also important
that you never lose sight of

1515
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:15,680
what this really is.
This is a family deal, right.

1516
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:19,280
This is this is the the ultimate
family business, right.

1517
01:29:21,320 --> 01:29:25,480
And and family business.
I'll just, I'll just, I'll just

1518
01:29:25,480 --> 01:29:31,120
talk about it from from my you
know my point of view in in in

1519
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:36,040
my time here on this earth.
My old man passed away when I

1520
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:40,840
was 13 and I remember, I
remember when my first born

1521
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:43,640
arrived.
He arrived in rough shape.

1522
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:49,880
And I remember I had to leave my
wife Amber in the hospital, get

1523
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:53,760
in the car, follow the ambulance
to a different hospital that was

1524
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:56,760
equipped to handle the problems
that that my son had.

1525
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:02,640
And the whole way there, I just
found myself thinking, I wish my

1526
01:30:02,640 --> 01:30:07,040
dad was here, I wish my dad was
here to guide me.

1527
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:12,960
And I think that's in some ways
much the same feeling on why

1528
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:16,760
we'll never surpass our God, our
Father.

1529
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:20,360
Right, 'cause at some point
we're gonna encounter something

1530
01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:22,800
and be like, I I don't.
Gosh, I wish.

1531
01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:24,960
I need someone to talk to about
this.

1532
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:28,360
Right.
He's, he's gonna always have the

1533
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:30,600
answers for us throughout all
eternity.

1534
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:35,720
So this idea that we ever catch
up to him or surpass him, I I

1535
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:40,280
don't think is is ever really a
thing in this grand plan of

1536
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:45,400
eternal progression.
Nor do I think we would want to,

1537
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:47,680
quite frankly, Ben.
I think.

1538
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:52,200
I think just even as we get
older, our parents are still a

1539
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:57,680
source of wisdom and and
guidance at times.

1540
01:30:57,680 --> 01:31:00,880
Even as adults, it'll be much
the same side.

1541
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:10,920
Yeah, there, he's got a few more
comments about this, about the

1542
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:13,560
about the dead.
He brings up Elder King Follette

1543
01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:16,840
several times, right.
And he says, you mourners.

1544
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:20,240
And I think he speaks to us of
all those who've lost, right.

1545
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:24,840
He says, you mourners, you have
occasion to rejoice for your

1546
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:28,600
husband, your father is gone to
await the resurrection of the

1547
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:30,840
dead.
And I am authorized to say by

1548
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:33,440
the authority of the Holy Ghost,
that you have no occasion to

1549
01:31:33,440 --> 01:31:38,600
fear, for he has gone to the
home of the just do not mourn,

1550
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:42,160
do not weep.
I know it by the testimony of

1551
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:43,560
the Holy Ghost that is within
me.

1552
01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:46,760
And you may wait for your
friends to come forth to meet

1553
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:49,040
you in the mourn of the
celestial world.

1554
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:51,480
Rejoice, O Israel.
Your friends, who have been

1555
01:31:51,480 --> 01:31:53,880
murdered for the truth's sake
and persecution, shall tramp

1556
01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:55,240
gloriously in the celestial
world.

1557
01:31:56,120 --> 01:31:59,760
I have a father, brothers,
children, and friends who have

1558
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:02,640
gone to the world of spirits.
They're only absent for a

1559
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:05,000
moment.
They're in the spirit, and we

1560
01:32:05,320 --> 01:32:08,920
shall soon meet again.
The time will soon arrive when

1561
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:12,640
the trumpet shall sound.
When we depart, we shall hail

1562
01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:15,720
our mothers, our fathers, our
friends, and all whom we love

1563
01:32:15,720 --> 01:32:19,520
who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
There will be No Fear of mobs or

1564
01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:22,080
persecutions or malicious
lawsuits or arrests.

1565
01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:27,240
It will be an eternity of
Felicity, and this may lead

1566
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:29,440
others.
The question may be asked, will

1567
01:32:29,440 --> 01:32:31,480
mothers have their children in
eternity?

1568
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:35,960
Yes, yes, mothers.
You will have your children, for

1569
01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:38,280
they will have eternal life and
their debt is paid.

1570
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:41,280
There's no damnation in waiting
for them in the spirit.

1571
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:44,120
But as the child dies, so shall
rise from the dead and be

1572
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:48,960
forever living in the learning
of God, right?

1573
01:32:49,080 --> 01:32:51,920
And so he's saying, like, it
doesn't matter who you think

1574
01:32:51,920 --> 01:32:53,880
you've lost, if it's your
father, if it's your child,

1575
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:59,200
nothing is really lost.
And why is nothing really lost?

1576
01:32:59,920 --> 01:33:02,840
It's because of these, these
principles that make us go

1577
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:06,440
eternal with God.
They've always existed and they

1578
01:33:06,480 --> 01:33:16,720
always will, right?
We can bring them back, you

1579
01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:25,320
know, even our children that
we've lost at the beginning.

1580
01:33:25,320 --> 01:33:29,520
I I have a friend who not too
long ago miscarried.

1581
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,680
Right.
And her thought was, will I ever

1582
01:33:34,680 --> 01:33:38,440
hold this child in my arms?
And here's an answer.

1583
01:33:38,440 --> 01:33:41,080
Yes.
Yes, you'll have your children.

1584
01:33:41,480 --> 01:33:43,280
Yes.
Yes, Dave, you will have your

1585
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:47,840
father back, right?
Because he lived before he was

1586
01:33:47,840 --> 01:33:53,840
even born and he lives still in
the world of spirits and we're

1587
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:58,080
separated, but for a moment,
compared to eternal right, we're

1588
01:33:58,080 --> 01:34:01,000
Co eternal.
You know, this is, this is one

1589
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:03,760
of the things that I absolutely
love about Joseph Smith.

1590
01:34:05,440 --> 01:34:10,720
Certain times in in Joseph's
writings and teachings and and

1591
01:34:10,720 --> 01:34:15,640
talks, you get a very real sense
that the same questions we have

1592
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:18,840
are the same questions he had,
right?

1593
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:20,680
Sure.
There's nothing new under the

1594
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:23,000
sun, it says in the book of
Ecclesiastes multiple times,

1595
01:34:23,000 --> 01:34:24,560
right?
It's the same questions.

1596
01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:26,520
We're all struggling with the
same questions.

1597
01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:28,120
It's gonna be the same thing
again.

1598
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:33,320
I feel like Joseph's giving you
a bit of insight into his own,

1599
01:34:34,280 --> 01:34:37,200
into his own struggles, right?
I've lost kids, I've lost

1600
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:41,120
brothers, I've lost a dad.
You know, he's telling you, I've

1601
01:34:41,120 --> 01:34:45,240
wrestled with these things.
But here's the Here again.

1602
01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:50,480
Here's the good news, right is
it's it's fleeting.

1603
01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:54,960
It's fleeing that separation.
It's it's temporary.

1604
01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:58,160
And the atonement does set this
right?

1605
01:34:59,440 --> 01:35:02,440
It does.
The atonement sets it all right.

1606
01:35:03,280 --> 01:35:05,720
Even if we're not there fully
yet.

1607
01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:08,480
We're there now to some extent,
right?

1608
01:35:08,480 --> 01:35:10,320
We're in the midst of eternity
already.

1609
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:14,640
Yep, we have to realize that.
Then we can have the faith.

1610
01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:20,200
And this is the beauty of this
doctrine, is that we can

1611
01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:24,000
approach God with a sense of
nearness, a sense of family, a

1612
01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:30,680
sense of connection.
Knowing that God doesn't just

1613
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:33,040
understand us because he can
comprehend things that are

1614
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:34,920
different than Him.
He understands us because He's

1615
01:35:34,920 --> 01:35:37,840
felt the same things.
He knows what it's like.

1616
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:46,960
He lost his only beloved Son,
but with the perspective that he

1617
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:51,560
knew he could rise again.
Even then shortest verse in the

1618
01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:55,480
Bible, Jesus wept.
Do you think Jesus lacked faith?

1619
01:35:56,040 --> 01:35:59,440
That Lazarus his friend, that he
could see him again?

1620
01:36:01,440 --> 01:36:04,160
He lacked no faith at all.
He there's no way that he could

1621
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:06,800
have done the miracle of raising
him from the dead if he had any

1622
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:09,280
any lack of faith.
And yet he wept.

1623
01:36:10,320 --> 01:36:11,560
He's still mourned with those
who mourn.

1624
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:13,680
He's still wept.
We're going to cry over our our

1625
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:15,480
our lost.
We're going to cry over our

1626
01:36:15,480 --> 01:36:18,120
dead.
We're going to cry for what we

1627
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:22,360
what we think we've lost.
And yet all these things are

1628
01:36:22,360 --> 01:36:26,800
about a moment.
And then we know that we shall

1629
01:36:26,800 --> 01:36:29,320
be saved everlasting, the
Kingdom of God.

1630
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:35,400
We just have to try to endure
it, endure it Well, like God

1631
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:37,520
said to Joseph in the Liberty
Jail, right?

1632
01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:41,840
If you endure it well, you'll be
crowned with glory, and it'll

1633
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:43,920
your sufferings will be but a
small moment.

1634
01:36:44,760 --> 01:36:47,640
And it's hard to say that when
we look at this world and some

1635
01:36:47,640 --> 01:36:51,920
people suffer from the cradle to
the grave, some of us carry

1636
01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:57,920
terrible burdens.
And yet I still have faith that

1637
01:36:57,920 --> 01:37:00,880
this is true.
It is but a short moment.

1638
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:05,240
I have AI, have a dear friend
who's passed on, who had some of

1639
01:37:05,240 --> 01:37:08,920
the most miraculous stories,
some of the most miraculous

1640
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:10,920
occurrences that happened to him
in his life.

1641
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:15,440
He laid hands on the sick and
the dying and they rised whole.

1642
01:37:15,640 --> 01:37:18,360
They rose whole.
And he himself had cancer and

1643
01:37:19,040 --> 01:37:23,280
didn't wasn't cured.
You know, it's like like with

1644
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:25,760
Jesus when he was on the cross
they mocked him and they said

1645
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:28,080
others he saved himself.
He cannot save.

1646
01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:29,760
If thou be the Son of God, come
down from there.

1647
01:37:29,920 --> 01:37:32,080
Get up, get down off the cross
if you can.

1648
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:35,720
Jesus didn't.
He had to suffer it.

1649
01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:42,440
He could, He could heal others,
but he couldn't prevent his own

1650
01:37:42,440 --> 01:37:43,920
suffering.
He still had to go through it.

1651
01:37:43,920 --> 01:37:46,960
He still had to suffer.
We have to do the same.

1652
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:51,600
We have to endure it well.
And then not too far distant

1653
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:55,840
from that comes resurrection
comes, joy comes, reunification.

1654
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:07,480
And and it's all because of
these principles, right?

1655
01:38:08,080 --> 01:38:11,600
Jesus Christ didn't.
Jesus didn't become Christ

1656
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:15,800
without the true principles, the
same way God didn't become God

1657
01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:18,680
without these true principles.
And we cannot become like God

1658
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:21,800
without these true principles.
But Jesus knew it.

1659
01:38:21,880 --> 01:38:26,360
Jesus understood it.
And that's why he said even when

1660
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:28,120
he was asking let this cup be
passed from me, he said

1661
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:30,040
nevertheless not my will but
thine be done.

1662
01:38:30,960 --> 01:38:33,040
Because he knew there was a
bigger picture.

1663
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:35,360
He knew there was a greater
purpose.

1664
01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:45,240
And so, you know I feel like the
king full at discourse.

1665
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:48,120
Some people have talked about it
should be canonized.

1666
01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:52,320
I believe so.
I believe it's it's scripture.

1667
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:57,720
I know others who are concerned
about such a proposition.

1668
01:38:58,120 --> 01:39:01,360
You know there's a there's a
there are even books about the

1669
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:03,120
uncanonized revelations of
Joseph Smith.

1670
01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:07,720
There's quite a few.
If I had my way, I'd canonize

1671
01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:12,600
them all, because I believe that
we should live by every word

1672
01:39:12,600 --> 01:39:14,320
which proceedeth forth from the
mouth of God.

1673
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:16,720
And these are words of God,
right?

1674
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:18,520
Joseph Smith even says so
multiple times throughout the

1675
01:39:18,520 --> 01:39:21,000
talk.
I tell you by the authority of

1676
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:24,400
the Holy Ghost, I tell you here
at all the ends of the earth,

1677
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:26,560
this is the word of God, right?
He says it right in here.

1678
01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:30,640
I start to encourage everybody
to read and reread the King

1679
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:36,440
Follett Discourse as possible.
Absolutely let I I got one more

1680
01:39:36,440 --> 01:39:39,720
observation here and then I got
a few questions I want to wrap

1681
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:41,200
up with here.
OK.

1682
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:44,120
'Cause I know it's getting late,
unless you had more you wanted

1683
01:39:44,120 --> 01:39:46,280
to read out of there.
You know, I suppose the last

1684
01:39:46,280 --> 01:39:48,360
thing is, but we can save it
till the end.

1685
01:39:48,520 --> 01:39:50,560
Let's read the last some of the
last part.

1686
01:39:51,040 --> 01:39:54,440
Yeah, let me make this we can.
Wrap it up at the end so.

1687
01:39:54,680 --> 01:39:56,680
Yeah, yeah, we'll we'll do that
at the end.

1688
01:39:57,360 --> 01:40:01,200
But I I let me, let me make this
point and then and then we can

1689
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:06,440
go to that last last part there.
And then I'll ask my questions.

1690
01:40:07,120 --> 01:40:11,640
But you said something about
enduring it.

1691
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:17,080
Well, and I think this really
speaks to something here.

1692
01:40:17,080 --> 01:40:23,720
And and so often as Mormons we
get this idea that, hey, I, I'm

1693
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:26,600
living the gospel.
I I've, I've filled the

1694
01:40:26,600 --> 01:40:29,920
checklist, right?
I I did all these things, you

1695
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:32,760
know, whether you're a
fundamentalist or someone from

1696
01:40:32,760 --> 01:40:35,240
the LDS church.
I did the mission.

1697
01:40:35,240 --> 01:40:39,760
I I served in my callings.
I do all this so I should be

1698
01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:45,520
spared from any suffering.
That's not the promise, right?

1699
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:47,440
That's not what the gospel's
there for.

1700
01:40:47,440 --> 01:40:51,440
It's not there to prevent the
life's fires.

1701
01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:54,720
It's.
There so we can endure it,

1702
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:58,160
right?
Well, and here's the and here's

1703
01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:02,320
the thing I always say about
this Life's tragedies are coming

1704
01:41:02,680 --> 01:41:06,360
for all of us.
Either way, it's not like

1705
01:41:06,440 --> 01:41:08,280
embracing the gospel means
you're gonna have more of life's

1706
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:09,920
tragedy so that you can endure
it.

1707
01:41:09,920 --> 01:41:13,560
Well, everybody is going to
suffer life's tragedies.

1708
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:16,800
Everybody's going to die.
Everybody's going to suffer.

1709
01:41:18,400 --> 01:41:22,760
The gospel just makes it easier.
It helps you have a hope and a

1710
01:41:22,760 --> 01:41:28,520
purpose so that when you go
through that pain, it isn't so

1711
01:41:28,520 --> 01:41:31,200
pointless.
Instead, it has a purpose.

1712
01:41:31,480 --> 01:41:34,240
This reminds me of something my
wife said in giving birth to our

1713
01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:37,120
children.
She said, yes, the pain was

1714
01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:39,960
exquisite.
You know, maybe she shouldn't

1715
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:42,960
have been such a a naturalist.
Maybe.

1716
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:45,120
But she didn't.
She was like, I don't want any

1717
01:41:45,120 --> 01:41:47,480
drugs, I don't want epidurals.
I don't want any assistance.

1718
01:41:47,960 --> 01:41:50,800
I want to just do the process
myself.

1719
01:41:51,240 --> 01:41:54,160
I only want intervention if
there's a medical emergency.

1720
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:56,240
Right.
So she just wanted to have

1721
01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:59,600
natural births, which hurts a
lot more.

1722
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:01,760
I don't fault any woman who
wants an epidural.

1723
01:42:01,760 --> 01:42:03,400
It seems like a very rational
thing to do.

1724
01:42:03,400 --> 01:42:07,040
But she said she wanted to go
through the valley of the shadow

1725
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:08,400
of death and do this the natural
way.

1726
01:42:09,560 --> 01:42:14,360
Now, at other times she's been
very ill and injured and she

1727
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:18,160
said, oh, it's so different.
She told me one day, when I'm in

1728
01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:24,320
the pain of childbirth, I have
hope that there's a purpose to

1729
01:42:24,320 --> 01:42:29,880
this and an end to this pain.
And so it's not suffering.

1730
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:32,120
It's pain, yes.
And it's intense pain.

1731
01:42:32,640 --> 01:42:36,320
But in that pain I felt no
suffering for I knew that I was

1732
01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:42,440
going to have a child and there
was going to be a purpose to it

1733
01:42:42,440 --> 01:42:44,360
and that there would be an end
to that suffering.

1734
01:42:45,560 --> 01:42:49,480
And when it comes to other
things like injury or illness, I

1735
01:42:49,480 --> 01:42:52,200
mean, she suffered from cancer,
a bunch of other problems.

1736
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:56,960
She said it was different
because that felt like pain with

1737
01:42:56,960 --> 01:42:59,160
no purpose and that was
suffering.

1738
01:42:59,400 --> 01:43:03,560
That was hell because it felt
like, is this ever going to end?

1739
01:43:04,040 --> 01:43:07,280
And if you don't have the hope,
then there is an end and that

1740
01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:11,600
there is a purpose.
You your pain turns into intense

1741
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:15,200
suffering and that's the way and
and looking at the comparison of

1742
01:43:15,200 --> 01:43:17,280
those two is really the way I
look at it with life.

1743
01:43:17,600 --> 01:43:21,280
We're all going to suffer the
casualties of life, but with the

1744
01:43:21,280 --> 01:43:24,000
hope of the gospel.
It's like the childbirth.

1745
01:43:24,960 --> 01:43:28,520
You can say I see this pain, but
it will lead to something

1746
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:30,120
better.
Eventually.

1747
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:32,440
There will be a new Jerusalem.
There will be Zion upon the

1748
01:43:32,440 --> 01:43:34,280
earth.
There will be a redemption.

1749
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:39,720
There will be a resurrection.
Otherwise, we suffer in silence,

1750
01:43:40,280 --> 01:43:43,960
not knowing if there's any
point, any end to it.

1751
01:43:44,440 --> 01:43:46,360
No wonder people get angry at
God.

1752
01:43:47,160 --> 01:43:52,920
How could a loving God let such
pointless, horrific tragedy

1753
01:43:53,280 --> 01:43:59,600
happen in our world?
It's so much easier to face with

1754
01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:03,360
God and with an understanding
that we have a Co eternal nature

1755
01:44:04,480 --> 01:44:13,640
with him, right?
But let me ask my my few

1756
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:17,080
questions here first, before you
dive into the laugh part,

1757
01:44:17,080 --> 01:44:24,480
because they may dovetail.
I'm not sure What would you say

1758
01:44:24,480 --> 01:44:30,360
to somebody who says, well,
there's not enough Jesus in the

1759
01:44:30,360 --> 01:44:33,640
King fall at discourse?
Oh, there's quite a bit of

1760
01:44:33,640 --> 01:44:36,440
Jesus, but maybe not enough for
some.

1761
01:44:36,760 --> 01:44:39,800
I think what it is is maybe they
worry that there's not enough

1762
01:44:39,800 --> 01:44:46,240
grace and and that's a valid
concern in the sense that all of

1763
01:44:46,240 --> 01:44:48,880
us need grace, all of us need
redemption.

1764
01:44:49,880 --> 01:44:54,360
I heard once when it came to
understanding symbolic stories

1765
01:44:55,680 --> 01:44:59,160
what an, what appetite do we
have for what kind of doctrine.

1766
01:44:59,160 --> 01:45:02,280
For example, they said children
love stories about justice

1767
01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:06,200
because they know that they are
innocent, and adults love

1768
01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:08,200
stories about mercy because they
know their guilt.

1769
01:45:08,200 --> 01:45:11,280
That's.
Pretty profound and probably

1770
01:45:11,280 --> 01:45:13,920
kind of true.
And I think that if people don't

1771
01:45:13,920 --> 01:45:17,040
see enough grace in the King
Fall at Discourse, it's because

1772
01:45:17,040 --> 01:45:19,440
they know that they desperately
need grace and they're worried.

1773
01:45:20,680 --> 01:45:26,200
I think that if you read it, he
talks, for example, a section we

1774
01:45:26,200 --> 01:45:28,280
haven't really gone over.
He talks a little bit about the

1775
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:33,520
unforgivable sin and the type of
destruction that eternally

1776
01:45:33,520 --> 01:45:36,240
awaits those who forever turn
their back on God.

1777
01:45:37,120 --> 01:45:41,520
The type of suffering that has
no end perhaps right the second

1778
01:45:41,520 --> 01:45:45,680
death and things like that.
All of that is pretty dark.

1779
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:50,360
It's pretty much pound in the
pulpit hell type talk, which is

1780
01:45:50,360 --> 01:45:53,440
rare for Mormons because we
don't believe that hell is a

1781
01:45:53,440 --> 01:45:55,440
place.
He actually by the way, the idea

1782
01:45:55,440 --> 01:45:58,600
that hell is not a location that
the wicked where the wicked are

1783
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:01,920
cast, but instead as a state of
mind, also comes from the king.

1784
01:46:01,920 --> 01:46:06,320
Those passages in the King Paula
discourse that it is the remorse

1785
01:46:06,400 --> 01:46:08,520
of the conscience.
It is the destruction of the

1786
01:46:08,520 --> 01:46:13,440
mind that is hell.
Basically the giving in to that

1787
01:46:13,440 --> 01:46:18,520
ego and the you know that that
that creates that hell.

1788
01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:23,360
But and so it doesn't might not
look like it has enough grace,

1789
01:46:23,360 --> 01:46:27,520
but I think that if you really
look at it, he's basically

1790
01:46:27,520 --> 01:46:30,320
saying the IT it it's a hopeful
message.

1791
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:33,880
We are in Mormonism.
I like to say that we are

1792
01:46:33,880 --> 01:46:37,600
Universalists with a little
asterisk on universalists.

1793
01:46:38,160 --> 01:46:42,160
We believe that all will be
saved that want to be.

1794
01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:45,880
Basically, we believe that all
will be saved.

1795
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:49,120
Who will allow themselves to be
saved?

1796
01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:53,600
It's sort of like the it's
mostly a plan on words, but it's

1797
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:56,360
sort of like the problem of can
God make a rock so big that he

1798
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:59,480
cannot lift it, 'cause if he
can't make a rock so heavy that

1799
01:46:59,480 --> 01:47:01,040
he can't lift it, that he can't
do everything.

1800
01:47:01,160 --> 01:47:02,960
But if he can't lift it, he also
can't do everything.

1801
01:47:03,200 --> 01:47:05,240
So are you saying that God can't
do anything?

1802
01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:08,000
Well, it's mostly a plan on
words, but it's the same thing

1803
01:47:08,000 --> 01:47:10,520
here.
God can save all of his children

1804
01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:17,920
and he does and will save all.
But that little asterisk in

1805
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:22,200
there is he doesn't violate our
free agency because we are Co

1806
01:47:22,200 --> 01:47:26,800
eternal Co equal with God.
Our volition to determine our

1807
01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:29,640
own destiny is something that he
cannot, will not break.

1808
01:47:30,400 --> 01:47:32,560
And he talks about the
unpardonable sin.

1809
01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:37,760
And really what that comes down
to is rejecting God, refusing

1810
01:47:37,760 --> 01:47:40,680
God's redemption, refusing to
ever come back God.

1811
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:43,520
It will not drag you kicking and
screaming back to heaven.

1812
01:47:44,120 --> 01:47:46,800
He just won't do it.
It is up to you.

1813
01:47:48,240 --> 01:47:53,560
And for those few who never,
never, never choose that he will

1814
01:47:53,560 --> 01:47:56,200
never force them.
And that's what it comes down

1815
01:47:56,200 --> 01:47:57,280
to.
And so I think that there is

1816
01:47:57,280 --> 01:47:59,720
plenty of grace in the King
Paula discourse.

1817
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:01,600
There's plenty of the hope of
Jesus.

1818
01:48:01,600 --> 01:48:06,360
There's plenty of this hope of
the gospel, but people fear and

1819
01:48:06,480 --> 01:48:08,520
will I be judged?
Have I committed the

1820
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:10,760
unpardonable sin?
Because I don't always believe,

1821
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:16,160
because I don't always trust.
And I would say don't worry, do

1822
01:48:16,160 --> 01:48:20,200
not worry.
Alma is one of my is is probably

1823
01:48:20,200 --> 01:48:23,080
one of the finest examples of
hell in the scriptures.

1824
01:48:23,440 --> 01:48:26,280
Alma went about with the sons of
Mosiah rites to fight against

1825
01:48:26,280 --> 01:48:28,320
the Church of God.
The Angel came and condemned him

1826
01:48:28,320 --> 01:48:31,520
and said if you will of yourself
be destroyed, you will no more

1827
01:48:31,520 --> 01:48:32,600
destroy the Church of God,
right?

1828
01:48:32,600 --> 01:48:35,520
And struck him down.
You know the wrath of God right

1829
01:48:35,520 --> 01:48:37,720
there.
And he went to hell and he was

1830
01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:43,120
in the state of torment.
But Alma still had a choice.

1831
01:48:43,400 --> 01:48:45,480
He could have stayed there.
He could have stayed dead,

1832
01:48:45,480 --> 01:48:48,480
basically, and just been in
hell.

1833
01:48:48,680 --> 01:48:51,240
And he could have stayed in hell
forever if he wanted to go on in

1834
01:48:51,240 --> 01:48:55,880
rebellion against God.
But he swallowed his pride, he

1835
01:48:55,880 --> 01:48:59,280
killed his ego, He experienced
an ego death and said, no, I'm

1836
01:48:59,280 --> 01:49:00,760
not going to hold on to these
attachments.

1837
01:49:01,160 --> 01:49:04,120
I remember that there's a way
out, and I'm choosing it.

1838
01:49:04,880 --> 01:49:08,160
And he cried out.
Jesus, the Son of God, have

1839
01:49:08,160 --> 01:49:11,960
mercy on me.
And instantly he was redeemed.

1840
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:16,240
He was pulled out the I mean,
Can you imagine the pain and

1841
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:21,600
suffering of the Father and of
Jesus Christ watching day after

1842
01:49:21,600 --> 01:49:24,600
day as Alma suffered the pains
of a damn soul?

1843
01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:28,400
And they were waiting there,
right next to him the entire

1844
01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:33,200
time, hoping that he would just
cry out for a moment because

1845
01:49:33,200 --> 01:49:34,520
they were right there waiting
for him.

1846
01:49:35,440 --> 01:49:37,720
And it's the same thing for us.
And that's really what I think,

1847
01:49:38,000 --> 01:49:43,200
why I think Joseph Smith goes
into this about being in hell

1848
01:49:43,200 --> 01:49:45,720
for eternity and the
unforgivable sin, because he's

1849
01:49:45,720 --> 01:49:48,880
trying to explain to us not that
we shouldn't think that there's

1850
01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:52,400
enough grace, but we should
realize how extensive grace is.

1851
01:49:52,640 --> 01:49:57,000
Grace can do anything.
It can rescue you from anywhere.

1852
01:49:57,680 --> 01:50:01,920
If you will be saved, if you
will choose it, if you allow it,

1853
01:50:03,040 --> 01:50:06,040
He's right there.
He's a man.

1854
01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:09,720
He's been through it himself.
Jesus Christ himself is talked

1855
01:50:09,720 --> 01:50:12,080
about having gone through the
pains of hell himself.

1856
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:16,920
They know what it's like.
They've been in hell and they

1857
01:50:16,920 --> 01:50:20,360
are waiting for you in hell.
Every second that you're there

1858
01:50:21,440 --> 01:50:25,520
hoping and praying, you will
finally have that.

1859
01:50:25,520 --> 01:50:29,600
Your own ego, your pride, your
sin will break down enough in

1860
01:50:29,600 --> 01:50:32,760
that suffering that you will cry
out to him and then he will be

1861
01:50:32,760 --> 01:50:37,160
right there to pull you out.
And he said, and that instant,

1862
01:50:37,200 --> 01:50:40,400
Alma says, he could remember his
pains no more.

1863
01:50:41,000 --> 01:50:43,600
Right.
Well, that doesn't mean some

1864
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:46,880
people won't choose.
You know, the the eternal death.

1865
01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:49,680
Some people simply will not.
Let go.

1866
01:50:52,680 --> 01:50:57,200
You know, I I think this speaks
'cause you alluded to this.

1867
01:50:57,680 --> 01:50:59,840
God's not gonna violate our
will, right?

1868
01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:01,880
God, He doesn't have a problem
going.

1869
01:51:01,880 --> 01:51:04,720
You know what?
You need the waters to part.

1870
01:51:04,960 --> 01:51:06,160
We'll do that.
We We.

1871
01:51:06,160 --> 01:51:07,120
You know what?
You've lived.

1872
01:51:07,520 --> 01:51:08,200
You lived.
OK.

1873
01:51:08,200 --> 01:51:11,160
It's in accordance with my will.
Let's let's park them waters for

1874
01:51:11,160 --> 01:51:13,240
you.
He.

1875
01:51:13,240 --> 01:51:18,320
He's not above doing miracles
and and even breaking certain

1876
01:51:18,320 --> 01:51:21,160
laws of or I should.
Let me rephrase this.

1877
01:51:21,480 --> 01:51:23,880
What we see as the laws of
physics.

1878
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:26,000
He doesn't have a problem doing
that right.

1879
01:51:26,320 --> 01:51:29,160
The thing he has a problem with,
it's just what you said.

1880
01:51:29,160 --> 01:51:31,240
Dragging somebody to heaven, he
won't do it.

1881
01:51:31,240 --> 01:51:33,440
He's not gonna drag you there
kicking and screaming, and

1882
01:51:33,440 --> 01:51:34,440
that's.
And that's the thing.

1883
01:51:34,440 --> 01:51:36,080
This is why the devil's not
gonna be saved.

1884
01:51:36,320 --> 01:51:39,400
Not because God didn't love the
children that rebelled against

1885
01:51:39,400 --> 01:51:41,080
him, but because they rebelled
against him.

1886
01:51:41,080 --> 01:51:43,080
He's gonna let him.
Right.

1887
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:48,280
I think that's why.
Why it's so profound, what the

1888
01:51:48,280 --> 01:51:50,280
Savior said in the Garden.
And it's something I'm

1889
01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:55,320
constantly drawn back to, right?
He he knows what's coming.

1890
01:51:55,400 --> 01:51:57,920
He gets it right.
This is gonna be ugly.

1891
01:51:57,920 --> 01:52:00,360
This is gonna be bad.
I don't want to do this.

1892
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:04,040
So if if you can just let this
cut pass.

1893
01:52:04,920 --> 01:52:11,520
But your will be done, not mine.
And that's why I think this idea

1894
01:52:11,520 --> 01:52:19,040
of of surrendering to God is so,
so important 'cause without that

1895
01:52:19,040 --> 01:52:24,320
surrender we we it's a little
tough to get where it is we

1896
01:52:24,320 --> 01:52:28,200
ultimately want to go, right.
What What are you willing to let

1897
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:32,760
go of to take another step
forward?

1898
01:52:33,160 --> 01:52:36,680
And we can only do that when we
when we surrender our will.

1899
01:52:38,000 --> 01:52:41,600
And really that's in my
estimation, what makes Zion Zion

1900
01:52:41,600 --> 01:52:45,400
right is this idea that that
we've surrendered our will and

1901
01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:48,560
now we're we're doing God's
will.

1902
01:52:49,160 --> 01:52:56,480
And in that is where we we
really begin to see not just God

1903
01:52:56,960 --> 01:53:01,200
for who he is as well, but also
everybody else around us.

1904
01:53:03,040 --> 01:53:04,720
Right.
Is that perspective change that

1905
01:53:04,720 --> 01:53:09,000
happens when you, when you
surrender that will, OK.

1906
01:53:10,760 --> 01:53:13,080
If you were to tell someone,
someone walked up to you and

1907
01:53:13,080 --> 01:53:17,160
says What's the central message
of the king Fall of discourse?

1908
01:53:17,520 --> 01:53:22,040
What do you tell?
Well, first I'd love to quote

1909
01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:26,920
that fairly near the beginning
part where it says this is the

1910
01:53:26,920 --> 01:53:34,640
great secret, that God is a man
and that he is our father.

1911
01:53:36,200 --> 01:53:39,360
That's that's the crux of the
whole thing.

1912
01:53:41,240 --> 01:53:44,520
I tell them the whole point of
the king, full of discourse, is

1913
01:53:44,520 --> 01:53:47,120
for you to understand that the
blood that flows in your veins

1914
01:53:48,600 --> 01:53:53,280
is a divine inheritance.
You are who you are, what you

1915
01:53:53,280 --> 01:54:01,200
are, because you are of the same
family as God, because nothing

1916
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:05,320
exalts the mind of man more than
to try to know who we really

1917
01:54:05,320 --> 01:54:11,520
are, try to know what we can be.
We can be joined heirs with

1918
01:54:11,520 --> 01:54:15,120
Jesus Christ.
I think there's no more exalting

1919
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:21,720
message, and I think that's the
central message and that's why

1920
01:54:21,720 --> 01:54:24,560
it's also the most blasphemous
message to those who don't want

1921
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:30,080
to accept it.
They don't want, maybe they

1922
01:54:30,080 --> 01:54:32,640
don't want the responsibility.
That's that's my biggest theory

1923
01:54:32,640 --> 01:54:36,760
as to why people reject this,
this speech because they don't

1924
01:54:36,760 --> 01:54:39,480
want to recognize their own
divine nature.

1925
01:54:39,960 --> 01:54:46,560
Because it places upon them a
huge burden, a huge burden to to

1926
01:54:46,560 --> 01:54:49,560
reclaim, to reclaim their own
divine nature.

1927
01:54:51,320 --> 01:54:56,720
Now if we know where we came
from, I think it would it it it

1928
01:54:57,040 --> 01:55:00,000
lights a fire in us to get back
what we've lost.

1929
01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:05,160
Yeah, absolutely.
No good stuff.

1930
01:55:05,160 --> 01:55:08,760
All right, man.
What's that last part you wanted

1931
01:55:08,760 --> 01:55:11,920
to wrap with?
All right, so here's a little

1932
01:55:11,920 --> 01:55:15,400
more Hebrew for you.
In English, we do good, better,

1933
01:55:15,400 --> 01:55:17,160
best.
We.

1934
01:55:17,320 --> 01:55:19,560
We have three different words
for different levels, right?

1935
01:55:19,560 --> 01:55:24,120
There's some more.
All basically, Hebrew doesn't do

1936
01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:25,840
that.
A lot of languages don't do

1937
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:28,320
that.
They usually do repeats.

1938
01:55:28,320 --> 01:55:30,840
They'll say something once, they
mean it.

1939
01:55:30,880 --> 01:55:33,000
They say it twice.
They really mean it.

1940
01:55:33,240 --> 01:55:34,960
They say it three times.
It's the ultimate.

1941
01:55:35,240 --> 01:55:38,840
It's the limit.
It's the full realization of the

1942
01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:40,840
thing, just like we have good,
better and best.

1943
01:55:42,560 --> 01:55:45,120
Joseph Smith knew this, and he
said something quite interesting

1944
01:55:45,120 --> 01:55:48,280
right at the end after he's
given all this doctrine.

1945
01:55:48,280 --> 01:55:50,720
And he's taught everybody what
he wants us to know about our

1946
01:55:50,720 --> 01:55:51,760
nature and about the nature of
God.

1947
01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:54,680
Because after all, he said this
is life eternal, that we might

1948
01:55:54,680 --> 01:55:57,680
know the one true God.
And he says, you know, I know

1949
01:55:57,680 --> 01:55:58,800
that you're going to have to
believe this.

1950
01:55:58,800 --> 01:56:01,160
Once you understand it, you're
going to believe it.

1951
01:56:02,240 --> 01:56:04,360
And so he ends with this
challenge.

1952
01:56:05,240 --> 01:56:08,200
He says, Hear it all, ye ends of
the earth.

1953
01:56:08,560 --> 01:56:13,320
All, all ye priests, all ye sin,
all ye sinners and all men.

1954
01:56:13,840 --> 01:56:18,520
Repent, repent, repent, Obey the
gospel.

1955
01:56:18,800 --> 01:56:22,280
Turn to God, for your religion
will not save you.

1956
01:56:24,680 --> 01:56:27,640
I have intended my remarks for
all, both rich and poor, both

1957
01:56:27,640 --> 01:56:29,640
bond and free, both great and
small.

1958
01:56:30,640 --> 01:56:34,840
I have no enmity against any
man, and I love you all, but I

1959
01:56:34,840 --> 01:56:40,520
hate some of your deeds.
I am your best friend, and if

1960
01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:42,680
persons miss their market is
their own fault.

1961
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:47,000
If I reprove a man and he hates
me, he's a fool.

1962
01:56:47,120 --> 01:56:51,680
For I love all men, especially
these, my brethren and sisters,

1963
01:56:56,200 --> 01:56:59,400
and I think that that's, that's
the final message he wants us to

1964
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:04,120
take, right?
He knew he was going to go and

1965
01:57:04,360 --> 01:57:07,560
and I can repeat a couple more
words at the very end that I

1966
01:57:07,560 --> 01:57:09,800
said at the beginning.
He said I cannot lie down until

1967
01:57:09,800 --> 01:57:13,600
all my work is finished.
And I never think any evil nor

1968
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:15,680
do anything to the to harm my
fellow man.

1969
01:57:16,240 --> 01:57:18,760
When I am called by the trump of
the Archangel and wait in the

1970
01:57:18,760 --> 01:57:22,080
balance you will know me.
Then I add no more.

1971
01:57:22,520 --> 01:57:24,160
God bless you all.
Amen.

1972
01:57:26,880 --> 01:57:30,240
That called repentance.
That's what gets me right at the

1973
01:57:30,240 --> 01:57:34,320
end.
It's not enough to know we have

1974
01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:38,320
to act.
We just celebrated the Passover

1975
01:57:38,840 --> 01:57:46,000
last night here at my home and
my wife said something very

1976
01:57:46,000 --> 01:57:49,680
profound.
She said to me all true.

1977
01:57:49,680 --> 01:57:54,320
Religion has to be exponential.
Religion isn't something you

1978
01:57:54,320 --> 01:57:57,160
believe because the belief is
not enough.

1979
01:57:58,600 --> 01:58:00,960
Religion isn't something that
you desire.

1980
01:58:00,960 --> 01:58:04,520
Desire is not enough.
Religion has to be something you

1981
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:07,840
do, he said.
Turn to God.

1982
01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:11,760
Your religion won't save you.
What's he saying?

1983
01:58:11,760 --> 01:58:13,120
I think he's saying the same
thing.

1984
01:58:14,400 --> 01:58:19,200
It's not enough to believe.
You have to do you have to want

1985
01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:24,680
I and and I don't know what
thing it'll be, whether, you

1986
01:58:24,680 --> 01:58:26,280
know, I can take better care of
my health.

1987
01:58:27,560 --> 01:58:31,080
And after all this body was
given to me by God, I could do

1988
01:58:31,080 --> 01:58:33,800
better things for my faith.
I could do better things by

1989
01:58:34,160 --> 01:58:38,880
studying, you know, reading the
King Full at Discourse or any of

1990
01:58:38,880 --> 01:58:40,960
the scriptures.
All of these things are things

1991
01:58:40,960 --> 01:58:42,880
that we can do, and we're always
going to fall short.

1992
01:58:42,920 --> 01:58:46,880
But do something.
Do something.

1993
01:58:47,320 --> 01:58:50,920
Because I feel like in modern
times people have treated

1994
01:58:50,920 --> 01:58:53,160
religion as though it's some
private thing.

1995
01:58:54,440 --> 01:58:58,960
It's something you do on Sunday.
It's personal.

1996
01:58:59,440 --> 01:59:01,440
It's not meant for public
display.

1997
01:59:02,440 --> 01:59:04,560
I feel quite the opposite.
I do do.

1998
01:59:05,760 --> 01:59:09,120
If you're going to come to God,
you need to do it.

1999
01:59:09,800 --> 01:59:13,040
And that means it's not enough
to believe.

2000
01:59:13,040 --> 01:59:14,560
It's not enough to have a
private devotion.

2001
01:59:14,560 --> 01:59:17,040
It's not enough to go to a
church on Sunday or believe

2002
01:59:17,040 --> 01:59:21,200
something or want something.
My religion is when I do

2003
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:25,080
something.
Yeah, this is this is what?

2004
01:59:25,080 --> 01:59:27,720
That's what this is.
One of the things that I love

2005
01:59:27,720 --> 01:59:32,280
about Habad and their Jewish
version, their Jewish

2006
01:59:32,280 --> 01:59:34,840
understanding of what a
commandment is, is they're like,

2007
01:59:34,840 --> 01:59:36,800
no, commandment isn't just
something that if you do or

2008
01:59:36,800 --> 01:59:40,280
don't do, God's gonna get mad at
you and God's angers or what you

2009
01:59:40,280 --> 01:59:42,520
have to worry about.
What you should worry about is

2010
01:59:43,920 --> 01:59:46,120
living up to who you are in your
own soul.

2011
01:59:46,880 --> 01:59:54,480
Because your soul yearns, yearns
to fulfill the measure of its

2012
01:59:54,480 --> 01:59:58,840
creation, fulfill its purpose.
And what's its purpose?

2013
01:59:58,880 --> 02:00:00,880
It's laid out in the
commandments.

2014
02:00:01,520 --> 02:00:02,880
That's what your true purpose
is.

2015
02:00:02,880 --> 02:00:05,760
Your true purpose that will give
you the greatest fulfillment,

2016
02:00:05,760 --> 02:00:10,480
make you who you really are, is
to do what is written in the

2017
02:00:10,480 --> 02:00:13,560
law.
Because every time you do some

2018
02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:18,480
small thing, every time you give
money to a beggar instead of

2019
02:00:18,480 --> 02:00:21,360
turning your eye the other way,
every time you give a smile to

2020
02:00:21,360 --> 02:00:25,640
your neighbor.
Rather than ignore them, you are

2021
02:00:25,640 --> 02:00:28,080
fulfilling part of your divine
nature.

2022
02:00:28,880 --> 02:00:31,600
That's what you want in the end
anyway.

2023
02:00:31,920 --> 02:00:34,680
That's what brings joy.
Be who you are.

2024
02:00:35,120 --> 02:00:38,680
So long as you recognize who you
are isn't necessarily your evil

2025
02:00:38,680 --> 02:00:45,120
desires, it's your good ones.
And This is why I think God says

2026
02:00:45,120 --> 02:00:47,960
that no good thing will be
withheld from them who love him,

2027
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:50,600
right?
No blessing could possibly be

2028
02:00:50,600 --> 02:00:57,200
withheld from any of us If our
desire, truly our desire is to

2029
02:00:57,600 --> 02:01:00,320
do good, to desire good God,
it's not gonna say, Oh no, no

2030
02:01:00,320 --> 02:01:04,720
good for you, right?
He's good to all.

2031
02:01:06,480 --> 02:01:10,720
So that's that's my testimony of
this beautiful scripture that I

2032
02:01:10,720 --> 02:01:14,520
believe canonized or uncanonized
is true scripture, which is the

2033
02:01:14,520 --> 02:01:19,480
King Follett discourse.
And I love to see more churches

2034
02:01:19,480 --> 02:01:24,360
in the Mormon diaspora, all the
all the different Elias

2035
02:01:24,360 --> 02:01:26,560
churches.
I'd love to see them add it to

2036
02:01:26,560 --> 02:01:28,600
their Pearl of Great Price or
Doctrine Covenants.

2037
02:01:29,000 --> 02:01:32,600
Absolutely.
I guess in conclusion what what

2038
02:01:32,600 --> 02:01:38,560
I would say is, is this, it's
really hard to understand the

2039
02:01:38,560 --> 02:01:43,240
breadth and the vision of
Mormonism without a healthy

2040
02:01:43,240 --> 02:01:49,320
understanding of King Follett.
Because really a few things like

2041
02:01:49,320 --> 02:01:53,760
the King Follett will give us an
insight into what Joseph was

2042
02:01:53,760 --> 02:02:00,240
driving at more more than this.
With that said, I think

2043
02:02:00,240 --> 02:02:04,520
everybody who's been listening
this should not take the place

2044
02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:06,840
of reading it, cause Ben and I
just barely.

2045
02:02:06,840 --> 02:02:09,880
Oh no, we just talked about it.
In fact, if anything, if you

2046
02:02:09,880 --> 02:02:13,480
haven't read it, go back, read
it and then listen to this

2047
02:02:13,480 --> 02:02:16,160
again, because then you'll have
some of our comments about it.

2048
02:02:16,160 --> 02:02:17,720
But really, you gotta just read
it.

2049
02:02:17,760 --> 02:02:18,280
We.
We.

2050
02:02:18,280 --> 02:02:20,440
Skimmed the tops of the
mountains, right?

2051
02:02:20,440 --> 02:02:25,040
That's all we get.
There are deep valleys to

2052
02:02:25,040 --> 02:02:31,280
explore with the King Fall of
discourse and study it as well

2053
02:02:31,280 --> 02:02:36,000
with with some of our latter day
quote scriptures in the Canon.

2054
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:40,360
There with it.
Because there there's nothing

2055
02:02:40,360 --> 02:02:42,680
there that you will find that
contradicts.

2056
02:02:42,840 --> 02:02:47,240
You may think it contradicts,
but upon further, deeper

2057
02:02:47,240 --> 02:02:51,600
introspection, you'll see this
all ties very neatly together.

2058
02:02:52,320 --> 02:02:56,520
And then we'll leave you with a
sense of maybe I don't suck

2059
02:02:56,520 --> 02:03:00,440
quite as bad as I thought I did,
and maybe there's something in

2060
02:03:00,440 --> 02:03:06,240
me that is worthwhile that is
worth shedding all the stuff

2061
02:03:06,880 --> 02:03:10,280
that's not godly.
You know, that's probably one of

2062
02:03:10,280 --> 02:03:12,720
the coolest things.
And if you look in the Book of

2063
02:03:13,080 --> 02:03:17,360
Moses in the For the great
price, that that was kind of the

2064
02:03:17,360 --> 02:03:19,920
miracle.
When Moses cried out to God, the

2065
02:03:19,920 --> 02:03:22,400
devil showed up just like it did
with Joseph Smith.

2066
02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:25,360
And one of the things the devil
said was you should worship me,

2067
02:03:25,640 --> 02:03:29,840
son of man.
And he said, where's your glory?

2068
02:03:29,840 --> 02:03:31,640
That I should worship you,
right.

2069
02:03:31,640 --> 02:03:34,040
He wasn't.
Once he saw the things of God,

2070
02:03:34,040 --> 02:03:36,600
once he understood his
relationship to God properly,

2071
02:03:38,960 --> 02:03:41,320
the devil couldn't drag him down
anymore.

2072
02:03:41,320 --> 02:03:42,720
He couldn't be like, oh, you're
nothing.

2073
02:03:42,720 --> 02:03:45,640
You should you should follow me,
'cause you're you're not worth

2074
02:03:45,640 --> 02:03:47,560
it.
This is the way the devil often

2075
02:03:47,560 --> 02:03:49,400
gets us.
The devil tries to whisper in

2076
02:03:49,400 --> 02:03:51,720
your ears.
You're unforgivable.

2077
02:03:52,120 --> 02:03:54,000
You're not worth it.
You're a nobody.

2078
02:03:55,840 --> 02:03:58,360
That's the type of voice that
you're from the devil.

2079
02:03:58,400 --> 02:04:01,760
And the voice you hear from God
is you bet you're worth it.

2080
02:04:03,440 --> 02:04:07,520
You're absolutely worth it.
And so we've got to be careful

2081
02:04:07,520 --> 02:04:09,760
which voice we're listening to
in the book.

2082
02:04:09,880 --> 02:04:13,520
It says that I will give unto
you a way to judge that which

2083
02:04:13,520 --> 02:04:17,040
leads to Christ, which
encourages you to believe and

2084
02:04:17,040 --> 02:04:21,600
trust in God, that is from God
and those things which tell you

2085
02:04:22,360 --> 02:04:24,760
not to trust God.
For example, the evil spirit

2086
02:04:24,760 --> 02:04:27,080
teaches not a man to pray,
right?

2087
02:04:27,640 --> 02:04:30,480
Those things are not of God.
So if you're ever feeling

2088
02:04:30,480 --> 02:04:33,040
really, really down on yourself,
as some, as a lot of us do

2089
02:04:33,040 --> 02:04:35,800
sometimes that you don't feel
worthy, you don't feel.

2090
02:04:36,080 --> 02:04:37,760
In other words, you don't feel
worth it.

2091
02:04:40,040 --> 02:04:43,960
This is a beautiful scripture to
remind us you're worth it.

2092
02:04:44,920 --> 02:04:48,400
You might feel like, oh, look at
all this garbage on top of my

2093
02:04:48,400 --> 02:04:51,080
divine nature.
I don't even think I have got a

2094
02:04:51,080 --> 02:04:53,880
divine nature under there.
He's trying to tell you.

2095
02:04:53,880 --> 02:04:55,400
Yes, you do.
You're worth it.

2096
02:04:55,960 --> 02:05:00,120
You're worthy.
Absolutely, Ben.

2097
02:05:00,200 --> 02:05:03,760
My man has always good stuff.
It's always a pleasure.

2098
02:05:04,480 --> 02:05:08,520
Let's do it.
Again and next, you know, we

2099
02:05:08,520 --> 02:05:10,040
talked about doing the surface
level.

2100
02:05:10,800 --> 02:05:13,480
If you ever want to chat again,
we can talk about the different

2101
02:05:13,480 --> 02:05:15,840
methods of scriptural
interpretation in the Hebrew

2102
02:05:16,480 --> 02:05:20,120
scripture study, 'cause there's
the surface level, then there's

2103
02:05:20,120 --> 02:05:23,840
the sub level, right?
And then there's the esoteric

2104
02:05:23,840 --> 02:05:27,040
levels and there's, there's
various methods of what's called

2105
02:05:27,080 --> 02:05:31,440
exegesis, learning, learning
what things are that.

2106
02:05:31,440 --> 02:05:33,960
I and I love to talk about that.
Too and that is always get.

2107
02:05:33,960 --> 02:05:36,480
Deeper.
That is, that is a fascinating

2108
02:05:36,480 --> 02:05:41,000
study, right?
Because one is, you know, I and

2109
02:05:41,000 --> 02:05:45,040
I always confuse the two.
I believe isogesis is what we

2110
02:05:45,560 --> 02:05:47,400
kind of read into Scripture and
then.

2111
02:05:47,400 --> 02:05:50,360
Exegesis is what we were like.
I think this means this.

2112
02:05:50,560 --> 02:05:52,360
We're kind of putting our own
interpretation on it and

2113
02:05:52,360 --> 02:05:56,960
exegesis is this is what we can
be sure it is really saying how

2114
02:05:56,960 --> 02:05:58,600
we're gonna be sure that what
we're getting is.

2115
02:05:59,000 --> 02:06:01,520
From the study of those two
things is absolutely

2116
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:03,760
fascinating, especially within
Mormonism.

2117
02:06:03,760 --> 02:06:09,200
I though you know exegesis and
isogesis works beautifully with

2118
02:06:09,200 --> 02:06:11,400
Mormonism.
So dude, I'm definitely down for

2119
02:06:11,400 --> 02:06:14,640
for such a conversation.
So all right, Ben.

2120
02:06:14,640 --> 02:06:17,960
As always good stuff.
Until next time, we'll all.

2121
02:06:17,960 --> 02:06:19,440
Right.
Have a good night, everybody.

2122
02:06:19,680 --> 02:06:21,040
All right.
Bye everybody.

2123
02:06:52,000 --> 02:06:54,720
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.