Episode #119: Doctrine & Covenants 42 Annotated-How Did The Early Leaders Of Mormonism Understand It & What Does It Mean Today W/Drew Briney

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OK, I got an amazing
conversation for you today.

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If you remember back to the
first episode I ever did with

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Drew Briny, it was about an
amazing project that he was

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working on, on making an
annotated version of the doctor

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and covenants.
Well, the day Drew comes back on

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the podcast to have a
conversation about the latest

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installment of that project,
which is DNC 42.

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DNC 42 is all about consecration
in United order.

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As we break down how Drew went
about annotating this particular

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section, we dive headlong into
what the early leaders of the

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LDS Church thought about these
principles, how it was lived in

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both the Missouri and Utah
periods, and what our

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responsibility is as Mormons
today in regards to consecration

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in united order.
Get ready for a deep dive into

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the subject on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade Podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse.
To become and raise men and

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women of virtue and character is
a Herculean task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com.

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Go to the bottom of the page,
search out the blog post, and

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order your copy today.
I can bear personal testimony

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from personal experience that
this is an invaluable tool to

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help you raise men and women of
virtue and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast, True.

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Back at it again.
Yeah.

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You're a busy man as.
Hard as I can.

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You're a busy, busy man.
I mean, I am.

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I am astounded at the amount of
work that you were putting out.

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We were just talking.
You said four books last year.

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Yeah, 4 four books and put out a
couple new editions of some of

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my older works.
Yeah, it's been super busy on

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top of working for as a
woodworker.

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Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
And see here, I thought I was

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doing good by, you know, getting
above 100 episodes, right.

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And what I do is way easier than
what you do.

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I mean you're you're running
circles around me, but so DNC

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42, that's the next one in the
annotation that you're doing.

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Yeah, it was it was unexpected
that I I sat down, I've looked

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over all the sections and I have
kind of an idea of what I was

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going to do.
And 42 was not on that list.

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And in fact, actually at the
point when I started doing it, I

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I didn't have a full list of
what I wanted to do.

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I just had a couple and I was
talking to somebody at at

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Centennial Park and he said, So
what do you make of all the

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changes in DNC 42?
I said, well, I haven't got

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there yet.
And he said, I'm really curious

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who made all those changes to
the Doctrine Covenants.

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They're not small ones.
They're and there are lots of

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them.
And they're substantial.

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They're like very he.
He didn't get into all the

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detail, but they're substantive,
you know, they're doctrinal,

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they're substantive, they're
act, they're administrative.

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And it's not just grammar and
commas and stuff.

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Like usual said.
I want to know who did that and

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why.
And you know, all that sort of

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stuff.
And I was like, I don't know,

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but so all of a sudden I said,
well, I'm going to find out for

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him.
And and I I didn't figure I

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would just do the whole section
'cause it's huge.

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Yeah, it's like 92 verses.
Yeah, I was like, I don't want

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to do another one like that.
I want to do a couple small

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ones, you know.
And it's almost like a small

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pamphlet or book.
Yeah, yeah.

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So, well, I I've been doing
well.

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My intention was to do monthly
updates for the DNC project.

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And so, you know, I did the
Amman revelation, I did the

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Apocrypha.
I, you know, I did some smaller

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sections just to kind of get
some momentum going.

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So I didn't want to bog myself
down with this gargantuan

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section.
But I thought at least I could

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do is go over the original
manuscript, find out about the

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changes, which ones got approved
by Joseph, which ones didn't

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give it to him and move away,
you know, And by the time I and

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that I was sucked into it, it
anyway, it was huge project,

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much bigger than that.
Did you ever, did you ever

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figure out who made the changes?
Was it one person?

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Was it multiple people?
Yeah, it was.

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That was actually pretty
straightforward and I was really

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surprised.
So basically Oliver Cadre just

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made all the changes and he made
the changes and said I never,

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you know, I made a bunch of
changes from the original

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published version of this but
they were all in the in the

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original manuscript basically
Big Fat Lie.

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I mean just wasn't true at all.
It may be true, and I think it

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arguably is true, that the
intention behind the original

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manuscript was not changed.
But there were a lot of changes.

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And and for instance, you know,
they when when DNC 42 was

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originally written, there was no
high council.

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There's no revelation on the
high council.

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And so it says, you know, if you
disagree with the Bishop on

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consecration, they grab a couple
elders.

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They can, you know sort it out
well or or sorry, all the

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cowdery changes.
It says take it from the the

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high priests, you know, accounts
of high priests or something

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like that.
Well, that was after you read

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the, the revelation on the high
Council and how it's supposed to

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work.
That makes sense.

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That's kind of their job, but
that's also not original.

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But is it the original intent?
I mean, the idea is to have a

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supervisory board set up to
oversee what the Bishop does, to

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make sure he's not being a
bully.

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And and or to say to a person
who's disagreeing with the

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Bishop, you're a beating,
unreasonable.

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You know, the Bishop's being a
good guy and you just make his

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job hard.
Knock it off the the intention

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appears to be the same so that
part was pretty easy and and you

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know I've I've got some quotes
that that I you know about those

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changes in the in the
introduction that just basically

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say yeah all over the counter He
did it all.

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Now the next question is did
Joseph change those?

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Did he accept those?
And and the answer is yes.

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And so then I was like did Joe,
was Joseph careful about editing

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these sections What, what
evidence do we have, you know,

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and and for the most part, you
know, it's not like we have a

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record of Joseph saying, well
today I went over the doctrine

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of confidence for publication in
1844, which is of course after

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he died, you know, and in that
process I went through sections,

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blah, blah, blah.
And we just don't have a record

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like that.
He didn't, you know, he wasn't

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that meticulous.
He just say worked on DNC or you

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know, went over to the the
office and he doesn't say what

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he worked on.
So there's no way to know that

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per Southeast, except for one
thing.

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And I I wish it was on the top
of my head, but it's not.

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There was one place where he
changed one letter, but it

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completely changed the meaning
of the word by changing that

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letter.
And and it was so.

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It was such a meticulous change
that he made.

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It's clear that he was paying
attention.

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He didn't just pass off all
these changes absentmindedly.

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He was reading over it
carefully.

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Yes, this is the intention
behind what I wanted and you

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know that he so he in in my
estimation looking over all the

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original documents he approved
all of those changes and frankly

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if you read them you know they
it it makes sense and and maybe

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I could just I'll read over a
couple while we're talking, it's

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OK.
So I'll I'll just I'll just read

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part of it.
The the consecration starts in

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verse 29.
Before you do that, I got one

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question on this.
If Joseph approved, if Joseph

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approved of these changes, why
do you think it is we need to

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look back then.
Do you feel like that there was

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like, I guess and and correct me
if I'm wrong here, Drew, I

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imagine that Joseph's making
changes 'cause, you know, he

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wasn't, he wasn't comfortable in
one part of where he received

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the revelation or he's like, you
know, I think I may have gotten

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that wrong and and as I was
dictating it.

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What if, if he's okaying these
changes?

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Is there anything that we're
going to see in in this

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annotated version of 42 that's
going to be counterproductive,

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if you will?
No, I I if I'm understanding you

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correctly, no.
So first of all I I think it's

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helpful actually to look at the
original changes and and I guess

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that's kind of like why why do
we want to even want to look at

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this if Joseph proved and why
even look at what it used to be

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versus what it is now.
It's basically what you're

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saying.
Yeah, yeah, 'cause my thought

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would.
Be It's a fair question, yeah.

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And so I think there are, there
are two things and and this gets

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into a really big rabbit hole
I'm sure we'll talk a little bit

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more about later.
But DNC 42 was not liked by the

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membership.
It was wholesale consecration as

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outlined to DNC 42 was wholesale
rejected by the church and has

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never been lived by the church.
And the Saints still didn't want

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to live at 20-30 years after
even after they, you know,

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they've been through the temple.
They got their endowments.

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They the cabinets consecr
operation, they still didn't

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like it and and I'll talk about
some of those talks later and

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and kind of how they how they
approach that.

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But so I think from that context
I think the changes are

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significant because you look at
it and what I see when I see the

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changes is Joseph and all over
Calgary probably.

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Thank you.
Sorry, what what you see, sorry

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for the audiologist start.
What I just was saying over

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again, what we see is Joseph and
Oliver Cadre saying part of the

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problem with the membership is
they don't understand the

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principles behind what we're
doing.

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They don't understand what the
Doctrine Covenants is trying to

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say.
And so we're going to

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interpolate and mostly add a
bunch of new material so that

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they can understand it better.
And I'll give you some examples

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of those.
That's why I was going to share

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some.
And I I don't have the original

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manuscript in front of me, so I
have to literally look at each

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one of these and and see what it
is.

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But in verse 30, it starts out
and behold, thou will remember

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the poor and consecrated thy
properties for their support.

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OK, that's not in the original.
It just basically says that will

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consecrate thy properties and in
which thou hast with a covenant

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deed.
You know, that's the original.

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But now it says which thou hast
to impart unto them with the

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covenant, and a deed which
cannot be broken.

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So he's saying, you know, why
are you consecrating?

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It's for the poor.
Verse 31 starts out all this is

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new, and in as much as you
impart of your substance unto

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the poor, you will do it unto
me, right?

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So the original is basically
saying consecrate it to God.

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That's what it's saying, OK, but
but they're saying you're not

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understanding that if you're
consecrating it to God, you know

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what it's really saying is give
it to the poor people and that

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is giving it to God.
He doesn't need your stupid

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donkey, He doesn't need your
mule, doesn't need your 10 lbs

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of flour once a week.
You know, this is for the poor.

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OK, so he's he's talking.
So so in verse 30 and 31, he's

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actually ascribing intent what
this is for?

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Right.
OK, that makes sense.

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All right.
And then and then he says in

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00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,440
verse 32, which is long for
something to start in the

224
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,400
middle, he'll just say the
properties cannot be taken from

225
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,280
the church, agreeable to my
commandments.

226
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,320
Every man shall be made
accountable unto me, a steward

227
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,280
over his own property.
So, you know, at first it's just

228
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,080
saying basically you consecrate
some of the property, get some

229
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,200
back, right.
But he's he's saying, OK, you're

230
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,200
missing the point.
You know, you're laying them

231
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,520
before the Bishop to show him
what you've got.

232
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,720
He's taking all of it,
everything.

233
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,360
And then you're receiving part
of it back, but as a steward

234
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,080
over it.
So it's not like you own it.

235
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,640
Again, the and and and Orson
Pratt went to great lengths to

236
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,280
explain this doctrine to the
people He does.

237
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,440
I'm not an Orson Pratt fan, but
he does an amazing job in in in

238
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,320
his commentaries on the section
to really explain the principles

239
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,480
behind it really well.
And he says like, the only way

240
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,880
you can get an equality among
the Saints is if they recognize

241
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,040
as the principle everything
belongs to God.

242
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,480
I'm giving everything back to
God.

243
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,560
And we all recognize that no,
whatever we're doing in our

244
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:57,000
respective parts of the
vineyard, we're all working for

245
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,520
God and furthering his purposes.
And so we received back what we

246
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,720
need and everything else goes
towards building God's Kingdom.

247
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,840
It's his anyways.
And you know, people weren't

248
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,560
understanding that they're like
you're just giving charity to

249
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:19,200
the poor people and and and
they're teaching and.

250
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:25,400
And one of the one of the talks
in particular focuses and says

251
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,480
the first principle is get rid
of the poor among you, right?

252
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,080
Like, don't get rid of the
people.

253
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,280
Get rid of the poverty.
That's the first thing you know.

254
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,160
And and that's where a lot of
people struggled right away is

255
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,040
they're like, wait a second, why
am I giving all of my everything

256
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,600
to the Bishop?
Like, what's he going to do with

257
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,600
it, you know?
And the Dachshund covenant says

258
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:49,800
he's going to give it to the
poor.

259
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,960
First of all, get rid of the the
poverty.

260
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,240
We got to get that out of our
out of our midst and then after

261
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,920
that's taken care of then
whatever's left over then we use

262
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,680
that to build the Kingdom.
So, but in the original version

263
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,320
of the Dachshund Covenants,
that's not super clear.

264
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,200
OK.
And and and so, you know, we

265
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:16,080
have to have these
clarifications.

266
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,680
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

267
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,400
And at any rate, and then, you
know, there's some corrections,

268
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,200
there's several corrections
about, you know, if you have a

269
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,320
disagreement with the Bishop and
all that sort of stuff, then,

270
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,000
you know, it goes before High
Council and this sort of sort of

271
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,800
thing.
But verse 33 is a good example

272
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,600
of interpolation.
It says again if there shall be

273
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,080
properties in the hands of the
church or in the individuals of

274
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,240
it more than is necessary for
their support after the first

275
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:55,440
consonant consecration which is
a residue, All that's new that

276
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,600
wasn't in the original.
So it just says and again with

277
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,960
the residue, you know give it to
the Bishop.

278
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,319
But now it's explaining after
your first consecration if

279
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:08,560
there's still extra that's a
residue or that's you know then

280
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,240
that's something that you're
you're consecrating.

281
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:18,920
So again you know it's it's not
a one, one off thing And so I I

282
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,720
think when we look at these
changes and recognize and the

283
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,839
Saints were not willing to keep
the original law.

284
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:31,040
So Joseph makes an attempt to to
make it or Oliver Cadre sorry.

285
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,360
And I I think frankly Oliver
Cadre was under Joseph's

286
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:38,000
direction to do things.
He did take some liberties with

287
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:43,720
the DNC, got chewed out for it
and and and frankly the editors

288
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,120
in the 1844 basically said some
people change some stuff without

289
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,240
proper approval and so we had to
fix that.

290
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,680
And so there's a little bit of a
spat about these issues.

291
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,760
But at the end of the day, what
the clear effort is, if you look

292
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,560
at the the actual changes in
this section of the DNC is just

293
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,200
trying to get people to
understand it better.

294
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,640
It's like you you don't
understand the purpose of

295
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,880
consecration.
You don't understand what we're

296
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,440
doing and that's really the
problem.

297
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,960
And if you understood better,
maybe you'll live it right.

298
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,960
So I think that's why it's it's
helpful to look at all these

299
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,800
changes and and literally like I
was saying if I'm looking on the

300
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,000
paper and I've I've got all the
changes in blue and that's just

301
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,600
a format thing for digital
versions of the in my software

302
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,520
half of the page is blue because
there's literally that much was

303
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:42,880
changed and it's not commas and
punctuation or capitalizations

304
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,720
or bad grammar it's
interpolation over and over

305
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,760
again.
So do you find that that most of

306
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,960
these and 42 are additions
rather than?

307
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,720
Yes, almost no deletions, almost
all additions, OK.

308
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:04,920
And they're very interpretative.
They're very clarifying there.

309
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,520
There are some that are
changing.

310
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,720
Here's the administrative things
that have changed with the

311
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,400
church, like I mentioned, High
Council, just several of those

312
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,760
things.
But mostly it's just trying to

313
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,840
get people to understand this is
what the Bishop is going to do

314
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,760
with your your your money.
If you're going to go give the

315
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,040
Bishop $10,000 today, you're
going to be like, I want to know

316
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:26,760
what you're going to do with
$10,000, you know?

317
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,920
And if you're with $100,000,
he's like, I'm giving all of it

318
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,600
to the Bishop.
He's going to give me 30,000

319
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,320
back because that's what's an
average, you know, amount that

320
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:37,800
Saints get.
Where what's he doing that

321
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,280
$70,000?
I'm working my butt off.

322
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:41,960
You're going to take 70% of my
money.

323
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:44,200
I don't know where it's going.
Right.

324
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,360
And and so I think that was
their first effort was to say,

325
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,000
OK we we need to help people
understand what the bishops

326
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,280
doing with this.
And in fact, if you look at the

327
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:57,040
other sections of the doctrine,
confidence that address

328
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:03,040
consecration, we see them kind
of amending and back stepping

329
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,000
from the original DNC 42 to to
make it easier to understand, to

330
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,640
explain what the bishops doing
and to make it less hard, less

331
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,920
difficult.
And that's that didn't work

332
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:25,600
either, but that's that's kind
of the next stage of of of of of

333
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,640
the historical record I guess.
Gotcha.

334
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,920
This is fascinating because we
get a glimpse like what you're

335
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,760
doing here.
I think really a lot of people,

336
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,280
including mainstream LDS folks,
have been asking what was the

337
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,400
process for the Doctrine and
Covenants, right?

338
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,160
Because I've I've made this
contention for a long time.

339
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,760
The Doctrine and Covenants is
unique in all of Christendom,

340
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,800
probably in religion generally,
right?

341
00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,840
Because got to be close to 90
some percent of everything

342
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,200
that's said is coming direct
from the Lord, right?

343
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,280
There's no, there's no real
interpretation going on.

344
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,760
It's Joseph asks a question.
Joseph gets an answer.

345
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,120
They get published right with
some editing, that sort of

346
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,560
stuff.
Right now I think that that that

347
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,600
why this is so interesting is
that this gives a glimpse into

348
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,200
the process of how Joseph Smith
received revelation.

349
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:32,720
And just as we were talking
here, it seems like he's he's,

350
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:38,440
he's not getting so much words
as he is ideas and principles,

351
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,120
right?
And then as as he dictates it in

352
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:47,160
the moment, he's not thinking
about it, are other people going

353
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,640
to be able to understand this?
Right.

354
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,240
Or how are they going to
misinterpret it?

355
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,760
Right.
He's just spitting it out as it

356
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,360
kind of comes, so to speak,
right?

357
00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:57,120
Yes.
And so this is fascinating,

358
00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:00,840
'cause this shows that Joseph
will will receive these

359
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,120
revelations and he knows what
the intent is because he's the

360
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:09,280
one receiving it.
And then he puts it forward and

361
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,800
then he's like, well, wait a
second, That doesn't necessarily

362
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,960
express, express the, you know,
the the the 10th there.

363
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,720
And so this is fascinating
because because this kind of

364
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,920
forces Joseph to go back and
almost reanalyze what he had got

365
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,360
in the moment and could look at
it and go, OK, so I'm gonna have

366
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,360
to add some explanation here
because this is what I really

367
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,920
received.
That's that's fascinating.

368
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,320
Yeah.
Can I interrupt there?

369
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,960
Yeah I that's that is such a big
part of of what's happening here

370
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,000
in in and we we're going to see
all throughout church history

371
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:53,280
with consecration but I I just
ran across a passage with with

372
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,840
that on the baby resurrection
doctrine the other day as I was

373
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,720
reading in the words of Joseph
Smith and looking at some out

374
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,480
external accounts of the baby
resurrection doctrine which was

375
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,320
that you know babies that died
would be resurrected as babies

376
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,960
and stay babies you know raining
on Thrones.

377
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:17,000
Well one one of the
interpretations has been well

378
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,600
Joseph changed his mind he
learned better and later he said

379
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,720
that they would grow right.
Well one of the original

380
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,320
accounts is and and the original
accounts are pretty vague right.

381
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,440
But one of the original
accounts, they're the thing it

382
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:38,160
published as the TPGS or
whatever, you know, that account

383
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,920
basically suggests that the baby
will grow when it's resurrected

384
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,200
until it gets its full stature.
It's not super clear, but it it

385
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,720
throws that somebody heard that
as part of the discourse and

386
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,280
they understood it at that time.
The same thing he was teaching

387
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,840
10 years later.
Well, there's another account of

388
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,840
Brigham Young saying, well,
Joseph said they wouldn't grow

389
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,520
and later he did said did grow.
And I I can't make any sense of

390
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,480
it.
And he's disturbed by it.

391
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,360
Well, I think it was William
Clayton's journalist, the one

392
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,440
that picks up from the first
count when everybody else said

393
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,440
Joseph's, they they wrote down
Joseph, said the baby's going to

394
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,000
be resurrected and reign on the
Thrones as a baby.

395
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:22,560
He was the one, I think so
subject to correction, who wrote

396
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,280
in his in his journal entry.
Joseph taught the babies to be

397
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,800
resurrected and would grow, you
know.

398
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,680
And so he caught the nuance, but
most of the others did not.

399
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,600
And so then the formal record
sounds like, you know, he's

400
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,600
going to be resurrected as a
baby and stay that way.

401
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,440
But he's telling mothers, you
know, grieving mothers privately

402
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,800
when when your baby, when your
baby's resurrected in the

403
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,200
Millennium, you'll get a chance
to raise the baby until they're

404
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,960
fully grown, you know?
And then later he preaches that

405
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,480
publicly because people are
confused because they misheard

406
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,480
it.
But he's not learning.

407
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,960
He's correcting.
He didn't express it well the

408
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,000
first time, and maybe it wasn't
recorded well either.

409
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,280
And we're stuck trying to
decipher all that.

410
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,360
And there's a lot of effort
going back historically for

411
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,320
historians to try and say Joseph
was just learning.

412
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,400
True, he was learning.
We have evidence of that, but

413
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,280
that's not always the way you
need to interpret the historical

414
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,120
record.
And I think DNC 42 is one of

415
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:29,600
those situations where
historians and people talking

416
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,560
about consecration want to say,
well, Joseph was just learning.

417
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,480
He wrote down this idea.
It sucked really badly.

418
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,480
It didn't work.
Nobody liked it.

419
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,880
And so he tried to a new
version.

420
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,600
And so he writes, you know, in
this other section, the doctrine

421
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,240
cabinets, well, you don't
consecrate everything, just your

422
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,560
surplus, OK, So that makes it
easier.

423
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,760
Now people are quite so scared.
They can still, you know, keep

424
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,320
stuff and not lose it by deed
and all this sort of thing.

425
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,880
And but if you read the
discourses of the early

426
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,560
brotherhood talking about what
happened, that's not how they

427
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,880
understood things and that's not
what was going down.

428
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,400
And I I think that's super,
super interesting all by itself

429
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,640
to explore that question of what
they were teaching in terms of

430
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,000
what you were saying earlier.
This is God giving a revelation.

431
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,320
And what we have is Joseph Smith
expressing his understanding and

432
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,040
then correcting some details
later.

433
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,200
But God's still the one in
charge telling him the details.

434
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,400
Joseph's not making up the
details.

435
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,800
He's making up how you express
the details.

436
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,080
So you you know is is God
learning?

437
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,840
You know, he's, he's not being
surprised here, right?

438
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,280
He's not learning it's.
And you know, so that nuance of

439
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,520
how you look at the text changes
things.

440
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,840
And so this is where it gets
really interesting to me.

441
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,680
And what really changed my
perspective doing the research

442
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,240
for this book was mostly Orson
Pratt.

443
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,960
And and to be fair, I'll kind of
reiterate, I've been an anti

444
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,800
Orson Pratt person in my mind
for multiple reasons.

445
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,520
He got in trouble with Joseph.
He got in trouble with Brigham.

446
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,600
He's he fought with Joseph over
doctrine a couple times, not as

447
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,800
heavily as he did with Brigham.
Fought heavily with Brigham,

448
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:17,880
Repented said.
I'm so sorry.

449
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,560
And then he published against
Brigham again on the same issues

450
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,160
again later.
Anyway, you know, I mean so I'm

451
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:30,360
just I'm not a big Orson Pratt
fan and you know it it at any

452
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:33,360
rate, you know, it is it is what
it is it he's a good guy.

453
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:36,440
I'm not trying to badmouth him.
I'm just not a big fan of him.

454
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,000
And I don't always trust what he
says doctrinally because he's

455
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,480
very well read, but he didn't
always understand what was being

456
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,880
taught.
And then he adjusted from there

457
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,320
and that that's fine.
But I I want somebody who's

458
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,160
inspired, that's somebody who's
thinking hard.

459
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,480
You know, I can think hard and
and I like to think hard and I

460
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,080
like to trust myself when I
think hard.

461
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,800
But at the end of the day, after
I think hard, I pray and you

462
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,080
know, ask for correction.
And it seems like a lot of times

463
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,360
Orson Pratt didn't do that, and
in fact Brigham Young taught

464
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,440
him.
At one point he said, I I don't

465
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,400
remember the exact thing, but
Breaking said something to the

466
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,680
fact if I haven't read the Bible
in 30 years, then you'd be

467
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,200
better off if you didn't either.
You need to spend more time

468
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:18,840
praying on your knees in the
woods.

469
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,880
And then maybe you'd be more
doctrinally strong because you

470
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,760
could get some revelation
instead of all your stupid

471
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,440
ideas.
They they anyway, yeah they

472
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,240
exchanged words they it wasn't
quite quite maybe that harsh but

473
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,240
maybe it was.
It depends on how you read it.

474
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:40,200
But.
I I find the interactions

475
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,080
between Orson and Brigham
fascinating.

476
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,680
Right.
Especially when they're

477
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:50,840
contentious and the reason I I
find them fascinating is I think

478
00:28:51,040 --> 00:29:01,040
that that he what we see is we
see two guys who are passionate

479
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,120
about what they believe right.
And I'm with you.

480
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:13,240
I, I, I'm not a terrible fan of
Orson Pratt, which breaks my

481
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:20,200
heart because he was a surveyor.
But but but at the end of the

482
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,680
day, you know, I I side with
Brigham on way more things than

483
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,840
I do with Orson.
However, I think that that kind

484
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,920
of a sidebar here, 'cause
there's a few things I want to

485
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:38,080
unpack on what you just said.
You got two guys who who you

486
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,360
just get the feeling are kind of
the same in some ways, right?

487
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,520
They're going to come to their
conclusions and then they're

488
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,200
going to hold to those
conclusions unless you can prove

489
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,120
100% that you're off base,
right?

490
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:54,480
And they go.
At it.

491
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,880
What's that and?
They're both very passionate for

492
00:29:58,880 --> 00:29:59,760
the gospel.
Yes.

493
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,080
And they go at it right.
They go at it hard, right.

494
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,200
There are certain things that
Orson said about Brigham that

495
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,000
had I been Brigham, two things
could would have probably

496
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,040
happened.
One is I'm going to

497
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,880
excommunicate you and then we're
going to fight in the street,

498
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,760
right.
But, and and this is where I I

499
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,720
also think that this is
fascinating because you can see,

500
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,160
you know, Brigham gets the, the
rap of not having any patience

501
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,720
whatsoever.
But someone asked Brigham once,

502
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,960
why don't you just X him, right?
Get rid of him.

503
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,920
And he's like, you could cut
that man into 1000 pieces and

504
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,640
each one would testify that
Joseph Smith was a prophet.

505
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:45,040
And I I think that's a lesson we
need to learn, especially within

506
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,680
Mormonism.
We're gonna have different

507
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:47,920
ideas.
We're gonna have different

508
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,360
beliefs, and that's fine.
As long as we can kind of stick

509
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,360
around those basics.
We can work with each other a

510
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,600
little bit, right?
We we may not be able to hug it

511
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,560
out on Sundays, but we can sure
work together on Saturdays and.

512
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,920
Yeah.
And and I I find that

513
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,960
fascinating.
The the other thing I I wanted

514
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,120
to to ask about is as you
studied 42 here, because

515
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,160
consecration's a touchy subject
even today, right?

516
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,200
Yes.
What was your take away there?

517
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,880
Right 'cause 'cause there?
There seems to be two two

518
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,920
overarching narratives with
this.

519
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,800
With consecration.
It was either a really bad

520
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:34,280
hippie commune that never got up
off the ground really well or it

521
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:40,760
was a a power grab.
If you're on the the the anti

522
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:45,160
Mormon side of things.
In in your opinion, after

523
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,000
studying 42, seeing the original
record, seeing and then

524
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,080
comparing with what we got now,
and then maybe looking at at at

525
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:58,040
practice, what was your idea of
how the Saints and Joseph

526
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,160
especially envisioned
consecration being lived?

527
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,520
Yeah, That's a a great question
and I I would say that the

528
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:13,320
biggest thing and and and and
for me what really makes the

529
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,960
books that I'm doing on the
subject valuable is I'm

530
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:23,440
providing all of the known
commentary from the brethren on

531
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,880
that section in the book so that
you can see what how they

532
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,840
interpreted it.
So in answer to your question, I

533
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,520
would say originally before I
began studying and unpacking

534
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:42,800
this section, my understanding
was and and and and.

535
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,040
Frankly I hadn't delved into it
super deep.

536
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,040
I was.
I was heavily involved in the

537
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,200
Rocky Ridge order as an
attorney.

538
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,880
I was heavily involved in
attending their meetings every

539
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,920
week for a decade or closer to
15 years.

540
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,880
I listened to all their their
thoughts and arguments many

541
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,040
times in priesthood about what
consecration was, but I felt

542
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,160
like I hadn't really researched
it well.

543
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,880
But from that perspective, it
seemed to me that Joseph

544
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,960
introduces consecration in 42.
The Saints try and live it, they

545
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,800
screw up and it doesn't work.
So Joseph goes, asks more

546
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:31,200
questions, tries to implement
that, screws up, doesn't work.

547
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:36,080
So Brigham Young tries to to do
the same thing and you know,

548
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,720
experiments around with
different united orders and it

549
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,640
just never really worked.
I don't see it at all like that

550
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,360
anymore.
So let me, let me read to you a

551
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,480
couple things that worsen, Pratt
wrote that were key in changing

552
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,960
my perspective on this.
And then then the next thing

553
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,840
that I I wanted to point out was
kind of, you know, why did God

554
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,080
reveal something that he knew
the Saints were going to reject,

555
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,080
right.
And and and especially wholesale

556
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,520
in the way that happened.
I think that's a fascinating

557
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,440
question.
But first, let's go back to what

558
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,120
Orson said.
Let me double check that.

559
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,719
This is Orson Pratt.
While while you're doing that, I

560
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,159
I just want to give you a
warning.

561
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,040
You want to be careful quoting
dirty surveyors.

562
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,679
We're We're all over.
And so, yeah, I've, I've, I've,

563
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,400
I've previewed all of this, so
we'll be good.

564
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,080
This is Journal Discourses
volume 16, page 5.

565
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,400
When he saw the hold that the
traditions in which he'd been

566
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,920
trained to head upon our hearts,
he meaning God, revoked for the

567
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,800
time being the law of
consecration says when what God

568
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,800
revoke A commandment.
Yes, that is the way he did in

569
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,440
ancient times, and he's the same
God.

570
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,520
Yet he did it for our good.
For if the law had been

571
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,640
fulfilled in, or had been in
full force for this, people

572
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,200
would not have been in the
mountain.

573
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,720
These Sorry.
If that law had been in full

574
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:06,760
force, this people would not
have been in these mountains

575
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,920
this day.
Our selfishness and covetousness

576
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,440
are so great that as a people we
never would have complied with

577
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,600
it.
A few amongst us might have done

578
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,080
so, but as a people we should
have been overcome and ruined.

579
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,440
But owing to that law being
revoked, many of us will now

580
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:29,840
perhaps be saved.
OK, so I don't know if if that's

581
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,760
doctrinally accurate that it was
revoked.

582
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,960
That actually doesn't seem to be
the case to me.

583
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,520
But it is Orson Pratt saying God
threw this out there for us

584
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,520
because this is the fullness of
times.

585
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,520
You want to know what the full
doctrine is, how things work.

586
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,720
God doesn't appoint us partial
errors.

587
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,960
He doesn't say you will receive
most of what God has.

588
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,080
He says you will receive all
that God has.

589
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,760
You will become an heir, a joint
heir with Jesus Christ.

590
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,920
That a joint heir, legally
speaking, means you get equal

591
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:10,040
division.
Orson talks about that and

592
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,320
distinguishes that a little bit.
It does a very good job by the

593
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,200
way of talking about joint
airship and and what that might

594
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,640
be different, but that's that is
the the order of heaven.

595
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,360
And so he's saying, I'm giving
you the order of heaven here.

596
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,480
And so then we can't live it.
We screwed up.

597
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,880
We're like, this is too hard.
And frankly, I think the major

598
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,960
reason is because we don't
trust.

599
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,200
If if God was the one who's the
Bishop, then we'd be like, OK,

600
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,760
take it all, you know, And we
wouldn't be so covetous, maybe.

601
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,320
But because we're appointing a
man and saying, OK, Brother Drew

602
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,560
is going to be the Bishop and
say, well, brother Drew doesn't

603
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,640
know how to manage his money.
He's been poor his whole life.

604
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,760
You know, I'm not giving him my
$100,000 to give to somebody.

605
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,760
He doesn't know the right person
to give it to you and you know

606
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,120
that sort of stuff.
So I think that's a big part

607
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:02,920
part of it.
But still he's given his

608
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,600
commandment we can't keep.
So Orson Pratt goes on to

609
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:14,560
explain a lot of what it's about
and and and he says we need to

610
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,440
get two things to get this
figured out.

611
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,360
What first is we're consecrating
to God.

612
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,720
And so he says, this is Journal
Discourse 2 page, I don't know,

613
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:25,480
300 and something looks like 7.
Maybe.

614
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,040
When a man wishes to give
anything, let him give the best

615
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,320
he has got.
That's a principle the Saints

616
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,280
did not get, and Brigham
complained about it quite a bit.

617
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,080
He's like, you know, some
people's idea of consecration is

618
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,640
they've got, OK, I've got 100
horses, so I'll give you 10

619
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,200
horses.
And one of them's got shoe rot,

620
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,760
the other one's got a bad knee.
And the other one you know is so

621
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,360
old it can barely do things.
You know and it complaints

622
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,400
people had consecrated cows that
had all the teats bitten off by

623
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,480
the coyotes and so it no longer
could be milked well and you

624
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,440
know this sort of stuff and and
so people are kind of giving

625
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:11,240
their junk to to the Bishop and
so or some products like first

626
00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:17,280
of all you you don't give you
know your worst stuff you give

627
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,720
the best.
That's that's what sacrifice has

628
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:21,240
always been like that.
So you don't get that.

629
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:26,800
And another principle that he
hit really, really heavily was

630
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,440
to say, look, this is what you
don't get.

631
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,280
It's the King Benjamin thing.
The air that you breathe, you

632
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,640
owe to God.
Every particle of this planet

633
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,480
belongs to God.
However, it's been reorganized

634
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,880
in the form of a wheel or paper
or steel or fork or whatever

635
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,600
form those elements are.
They're gods.

636
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,560
You are just a steward over
them.

637
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,480
Your wives, your children,
you're they're borrowed.

638
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,800
They are borrowed.
Those are gods, and you are

639
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,080
borrowing them.
And you need to understand they

640
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,720
are gods.
Until he himself, with his

641
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:03,440
voice, declares that they are
yours.

642
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,760
They are not yours.
The horse is not yours.

643
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,920
The house is not yours.
Get it through your head.

644
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:15,120
It's God's.
And if we understand that, then

645
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,960
we begin to understand
consecration.

646
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,480
And they were just giving back
to him.

647
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:24,280
What's his In letting him decide
through his Bishop what you get

648
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:30,440
back and what you need.
And you know then at that point

649
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:37,360
you get what you need to survive
and what you need to do for your

650
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:42,720
business to increase your income
and to make more income and more

651
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:46,080
surplus for the next year.
That's what you're giving back

652
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,440
in excess of your needs, so that
every man is developing his

653
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,640
talents and producing as much as
possible for the order by

654
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,760
dipping that up in a way that's
the most wise.

655
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,360
That was the idea.
And he said if you understand

656
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,560
that the idea is everybody to
give their surplus and then we

657
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,680
divvy it out to those who are
able to generate the most and

658
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,600
make the most increase with it,
and it's all for the Kingdom and

659
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:11,960
you're all going to benefit from
it.

660
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,960
If you could understand that
principle, then you're you would

661
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,240
struggle with consecration.
And everybody's like, I earned

662
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:19,960
it.
I want to keep it.

663
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,720
And the poor feel entitled to
help or something.

664
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:26,720
And so they're like, you know,
he's got all this extra money

665
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,960
and it's not right for me to
live underneath him.

666
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:30,720
You know, you shouldn't live
above your brother.

667
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:32,840
And they're doing it so they get
bitter about it.

668
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,680
So everybody's griping at each
other.

669
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,160
They said you, you're just not
understanding the principles

670
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,720
here.
And so he, they really tried to.

671
00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:43,640
And Orson frankly did a better
job than any of the other

672
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,720
commentators and and hit the
topic more frequently than any

673
00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:50,960
of the other commentators.
So this is where it gets

674
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,280
interesting and I'm just going
to read one quote for you and

675
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,760
it's in it's in Journal
Discourse 13, page two, it's

676
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:11,420
Brigham Young brother Pat and
his discourse had considerable

677
00:41:11,420 --> 00:41:13,780
to say with regard to the
property of the Saints.

678
00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:16,500
I would like very much if the
time was now when the Lord would

679
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:20,720
say lay down your substance at
the feet of the bishops and find

680
00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:23,320
out who in this church would be
willing to give it all up.

681
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,280
So he's basically saying, I
would like it if now is the time

682
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,720
when DNC 42 was in action.
That's basically what he's

683
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:34,200
saying because none of the other
sections of the Doctrine

684
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,480
Covenants really says that.
It says give your surplus or

685
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,480
something, but this one just
says lay down all of your

686
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:40,840
substance at the feet of the
bishops.

687
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,760
But this is the key thing.
He says that it was so

688
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,680
fascinating to me.
This cooperative movement is

689
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,000
only a stepping stone to what is
called the Order of Enoch, but

690
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,440
which in reality is the Order of
Heaven.

691
00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:59,720
So the reason that's significant
is because people are saying,

692
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:02,120
well, Brigham Young was trying
to figure out the United order,

693
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,200
so he started up all these
different united orders, trying

694
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,560
different things to see what
would work.

695
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,200
That's actually not what
happened and there's several

696
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,720
commentate connotations in in,
in in the book that tell you

697
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,760
more of what happened.
But this is, this is as good a

698
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,560
summary as any as far as being
short and pity.

699
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,160
What Brigham did is he went
around to the different

700
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,680
individuals and said what are
you willing to do?

701
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,000
This is what Doctor Covenants
tells us.

702
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,560
What are you willing to do?
And when the people that he

703
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:45,640
spoke to talk to him about spoke
to him about consecration in

704
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,840
terms of the the cooperative
movement that was then kind of

705
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,960
going around, you know, they're
like we like a Co-op idea that

706
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,280
works.
He says, all right, well let's

707
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,720
start a Co-op here and we'll do
these rules and they're like,

708
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:01,840
all right, we'll try it.
And so he went around the

709
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,480
different communities and
started these different co-ops

710
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,040
with this kind of an attitude of
saying what are you willing to

711
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,120
do?
They they weren't that clear in

712
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,840
saying it like that, but that's
basically what was going on.

713
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,320
And so Orson Pratt says, I'm
really excited that we're

714
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,600
gaining some momentum.
But what you guys don't realize

715
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,120
is Brigham Young is not putting
your nose to the ground and

716
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,320
making you live consecration.
He's putting a nose to the

717
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,200
ground to see what you're
willing to do so that we can

718
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,640
have a stepping stone towards
doing what's right.

719
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:34,920
And I just want you to do what's
right.

720
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,840
So I thought that was
fascinating.

721
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,440
So instead of looking and saying
Brigham's experimenting, trying

722
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,560
to figure out how in Hades is
where we were supposed to apply

723
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,840
the Doctrine Covenants, It's
just not clear about these

724
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,320
details.
It actually, it is pretty clear

725
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,600
about what to do.
The Saints just didn't want to

726
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,320
do it.
And there's several discourses

727
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,680
where the Brethren are saying
you guys rejected consecration,

728
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,560
so God gave us some
modifications.

729
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,120
You rejected those two.
So it gave you tithing and how

730
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:06,920
many of you are either paying
full tithing?

731
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,400
You won't do that either in in
in people.

732
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,360
You know, you've got some few
people who say they want to live

733
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,760
consecration, but you're not.
You're not really doing it.

734
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,320
You know, you're you're doing
some baby version of it and and

735
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,200
they're saying we want to go
back to the real thing.

736
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:22,880
That's what Brigham's saying.
That's what Orson Pratt's

737
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,000
saying.
But they're saying we're just

738
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,680
working with you at your level.
That's what we're doing.

739
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:36,120
And so I I I thought that was
really interesting.

740
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:43,320
And so now I look at it more as
this is the Saints again not

741
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,320
doing their duty and the
Brethren trying to get them to

742
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:56,880
do their duty, you know, Right.
So so kind of jumping forward in

743
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,960
time.
So I'm now living in Colorado

744
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,520
City which it's it's not because
I'm FLDS it's because I'm not

745
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,920
it's just a pragmatic living
quarters situation found some

746
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,920
place that was just worked well
for a family.

747
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,320
And so I've I've been making
some some friends out in

748
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,760
Centennial Park and I asked to
talk to some of them and say you

749
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,120
guys have United order that
seems to be doing really well.

750
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,600
If you drive around the
neighborhood down there and you

751
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,600
can see they're doing really
well there, there's several

752
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,360
gargantuan mansions there that
might as well be castles there.

753
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,360
I mean, they're huge and a lot
of the properties are really

754
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:46,120
nice and well kept and very
large and everything in their

755
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:51,040
community for the most part is
at least middle class and mostly

756
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,560
upper class.
So they're doing very well

757
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,720
financially and that was the
case 30 years ago.

758
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,640
They were really poor and
struggling from what I've heard.

759
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,800
So I was talking to them and
saying and I'm having ongoing

760
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,920
discussions with them because
this is an ongoing issue for the

761
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,360
Doctrine Covenants.
I'm going to cover more of these

762
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,640
sections as time goes on.
I said, you know, I was with

763
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,480
Rocky Ridge order for about 15
years working with him on a

764
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,680
regular basis and talking to.
They were my friends, you know,

765
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,800
And there are several other
orders in AUB.

766
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,200
And I did a lot of legal work
for them, and I met a lot of

767
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,920
those people.
And they're also my friends.

768
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,440
So I kind of have an idea of how
they've implemented the United

769
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,280
order and how they've done
things.

770
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,040
So what did you guys do, you
know?

771
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,440
And I kind of expected him to
sit down.

772
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,160
And I.
And I told him, you know, I'm

773
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,680
wondering if somebody has this
kind of information that can sit

774
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,320
down with me and say DNC 50 says
this, 45 says this, 70 says

775
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,960
this, 78 says this, 107 says
this.

776
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,440
And so we, we did these things.
You know, that's kind of what I

777
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,840
was expecting because that's
that's what I saw, you know?

778
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,840
And when I would go to the
United orders and AUB, they

779
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,760
would say, well, doctor Kevin 78
says this and 107 says this and

780
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,120
you know, whatever.
You know, they'd all have their

781
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,680
two or three verses that they
really liked.

782
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,880
And you know, they think
everybody was messing up and and

783
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,360
that's what they would focus on.
And and that's great.

784
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:20,560
That's how we learned the
gospel.

785
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,160
And they're just doing the best,
you know.

786
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,320
So I sat down and I, I talked to
them and said, how'd it start

787
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,800
with you guys?
And and they've got an actually

788
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:35,200
very interesting history of it.
But the Long story short is a

789
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,800
lot of the people there didn't
have a strong doctrinal grasp of

790
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,680
the United order.
They had kind of tradition and

791
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,920
all.
A lot of that was FLDS before

792
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:50,520
they split and and so they had a
really strong feeling about

793
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,760
united order and serving and
helping one another but didn't

794
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,640
have a strong doctrinal grasp of
it.

795
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:02,840
So any rate they had a they they
had a a kind of a fledgling

796
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:08,800
version of United or started up.
But they're they're they're I

797
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,880
don't I don't honestly know
their how they call their titles

798
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,120
and stuff but I would say
they're their senior apostle

799
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,960
basically got a bunch of
committees together and said I

800
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,040
want you guys to figure out and
draft up a united order that

801
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,160
that that you guys cannot live
with.

802
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:33,880
And he basically told them I
don't want some scholar to come

803
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,920
tell us all the things that
we're not doing that isn't in

804
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,720
the doctrine confidence and why
we're wrong.

805
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,880
What I want from you is tell me
what you're willing to live what

806
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:48,080
are you willing to do and and
when he when the guy I was

807
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,520
talking to told me, I said told
this said this.

808
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:55,360
I said that's genius.
You know that's what Brigham

809
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,520
Young was trying to do which I
had known to tell us researching

810
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,520
this section and reading all
this commentary because I've

811
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,120
I've read some of the histories
in the you know the articles and

812
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,680
I've listened to a lot of them
summarized in meetings and stuff

813
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,640
and you know they're saying well
bring them out tried this but it

814
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,720
didn't really work.
So he tried something else for

815
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:13,240
this order and that didn't work
either.

816
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,360
And you know they're they're
making all these things out to

817
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,240
be human error.
And and really what Brigham was

818
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:22,920
just saying is what you guys
willing to do and we'll we'll

819
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:28,040
get started And and like I think
what I just read, he said this

820
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:32,440
is just a stepping stone to do
the real thing and and that's

821
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,120
what this guy did.
He basically said, you know

822
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,040
what, What are you guys willing
to do?

823
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,120
And because of their traditions,
you know, and because the whole

824
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,840
concept of consecration is
pretty selfless, they had from

825
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,880
what I understood and and I've
only kind of had a few

826
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,280
conversations, so nothing major.
But my understanding from is, is

827
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,360
they just looked at it and said,
well, first of all we don't want

828
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:01,120
any poor among us And so that
principle really stood out.

829
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,640
So you know when when they
calculate their tithing

830
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,760
historically speaking, I think
it's far from accurate.

831
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,120
It's kind of how the church does
it.

832
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,840
If you want to say how do they
calculate consecration,

833
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,800
Honestly, I've got a quote from
Joseph says they're doing it

834
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:23,360
exactly wrong but but the
principles and the purpose and

835
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,000
intense behind what they're
doing is precisely right and so

836
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:28,320
it's working really well for
them.

837
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,920
As far as as from an outsider's
perspective looking into their

838
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:38,000
community I'm super impressed
and and and their main

839
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:43,360
principles are first of all we
don't want any poor So if we've

840
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,840
got somebody who's struggling we
they don't just say OK how much

841
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,120
money a month do you need to
give them a check right.

842
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,720
Right.
They say and and I don't know

843
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:55,760
the all the workings of it but I
kind of gather they sit down

844
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,880
with an individual and say you
know what's the hang up for your

845
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,760
business how can we help you be
more successful so you don't

846
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:07,160
need our money You know how can
because nobody don't you know

847
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,440
nobody wants to get a handout
anyways if they're really trying

848
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,880
to live the possible you most
people you know I'm always

849
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,400
appreciative if I get it but I
feel ashamed right.

850
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:22,000
And I think most people are like
that in the gospel they don't

851
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,000
they don't just want to check
every month and be emasculated.

852
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,160
They want somebody to to say,
well I just need this equipment

853
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,480
or I need this.
And so then they work and and

854
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,200
they find some resources and
they help them with what they

855
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,760
need to get them on their feet
so they're not poor anymore.

856
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,880
And then and then everybody's
got everybody benefits now

857
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,800
because the 4000 a month that
was going towards that poor

858
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,840
person is now not needed and can
go somewhere else.

859
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,640
And that poor person's
generating money and giving

860
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,920
somebody else and you know the
idea of what is what is poverty

861
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:58,040
keeps becoming an increased bar,
You know, like it used to been

862
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,120
somebody makes 20,000 a year,
now it's 50,000 who knows, you

863
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,720
know.
So I thought that's that's that

864
00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:08,800
that being their first, primary
principle is precisely the

865
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,320
feeling that the very first
verses that I read to you, it's

866
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,280
like if you're giving to the
poor, you're giving it to me,

867
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,840
you know, take care of the poor.
That's what the purpose of this

868
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,760
is for.
And so you know, whether or not

869
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,160
they're following all the
technical guidelines, the

870
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,640
purpose is exactly what God's
trying to do.

871
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:33,320
So that's the first thing, and.
Oh God, sorry.

872
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,920
I I was going to say it it it's
fascinating to hear that account

873
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,880
because as you talk about
consecration, you get one of two

874
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:47,360
answers.
The one answer is, well, we'll

875
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,480
all just be poor together, and
so we won't realize we're poor.

876
00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:52,640
Right.
Right.

877
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,960
And then there is and and I
don't describe to that.

878
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,040
Right.
I don't think that's what the

879
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,160
Lord's intent was.
I think the Lord's intent was

880
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,200
when he said there'd be no poor
among us.

881
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,640
I don't think he's saying I'll
just make all your situations

882
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,440
miserable and you'll have no
reference.

883
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:12,000
Right, He promises.
They'll be the wealthiest of all

884
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,320
communities.
Yes, if if you look at what the

885
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,960
Lord's saying, he's like, you
really want to want to live this

886
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:25,320
order.
Buckle up because you're you

887
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,600
will all succeed.
You will all go forward.

888
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,080
But you got to live by these
principles.

889
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,560
So I appreciate what you what
you point out there that that

890
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,840
this isn't an idea of well,
we'll just all be poor together.

891
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,760
We'll we'll we'll all live in
hovels and no one will be able

892
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:44,480
to tell if he's rich and who's
poor.

893
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,680
And because we'll all be poor,
yeah, it's.

894
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,320
Quite a faithless view of
consecration.

895
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,880
Well and.
And I'm not saying it's not

896
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:55,000
common or not uncommon.
I'm just saying it's a faithless

897
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,000
version of it.
But, but I think this feeds in a

898
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,360
larger narrative, Drew, and it's
something that I've seen creep

899
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,920
out of BYU more and more, is
this idea that consecration was

900
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,120
nothing more than socialism with
a religious bent.

901
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:13,040
Yes, yeah.
And and I've been one to that

902
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,680
said, I don't think that's it.
Right.

903
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,800
And and as I dive in and I read
42, the Lord is talking about

904
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,240
you know, the harbor raising all
ships, right.

905
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:28,480
This isn't just again, we're all
going to be poor together.

906
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:29,600
This is about.
No.

907
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,440
Together we will all succeed and
we will all rise.

908
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:38,760
And I find it fascinating that
that the history bears us out as

909
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,920
well.
Yeah.

910
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:48,840
And and and you know I what is
the is the brethren are talking

911
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,600
too.
They're like if we will do this,

912
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,960
we will be one of the wealthiest
communities there is.

913
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,720
And to me, that's one of the
reasons why I was interested to

914
00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:01,480
talk to Centennial Park.
Because if you drive around

915
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,360
their community, I've driven
around a lot of fundamentalist

916
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,880
communities.
And frankly they on a on a

917
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,600
picturesque level, they on
driving by community.

918
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,040
I mean, you know, and I realize
that's a very superficial thing,

919
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,800
but they look like they're doing
a Dang good job compared to

920
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,760
everybody else.
I've been through several United

921
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:28,760
order areas and you got junk
trailers and junk cars and

922
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:32,520
things piled up on the side and
things aren't camped and you

923
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,280
know, that looks like white
trash.

924
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:40,080
And I commend them for trying to
do their best and trying to

925
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,320
build up and stuff.
And sometimes you got to start

926
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,560
from somewhere, you know?
And sometimes that's all it is,

927
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,840
is people are just barely
starting out and you know,

928
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,040
they're just, they're trying and
there's nothing wrong with that.

929
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:56,320
But when you see a community
where everybody's apparently

930
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:00,320
everybody's wealthy and they're
living United order, you say,

931
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,400
you know, that looks an awful
lot like the fruit that God

932
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,200
promised if you're doing it
right.

933
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,680
You know, so that's what that's
what really got my attention

934
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,680
talking to them and and has has
had my interest from a

935
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,720
historian's perspective and a
doctrinal perspective is

936
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,360
whatever their feelings are.
And I don't know.

937
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:23,200
I I don't I I don't know what
all their doctrines are and you

938
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,280
know all this sort of stuff that
they they've got good fruit on

939
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,280
their consecration.
And I've meet a lot of really

940
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,920
good people there too.
And and so I have to look at

941
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:35,760
that and say it looks like
they're doing something right.

942
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,600
And what I perceive it that
they're doing right is precisely

943
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,760
what I was perceiving from the
early Brothers Discourses is

944
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:49,960
saying, look you need to
understand the principles behind

945
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,440
this to live it right.
If not, you're just going to be

946
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,280
upset and stuck in your
traditions and, you know,

947
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,400
worried with the scarcity
mentality, What's the Bishop

948
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:01,680
gonna do with all my extra
money?

949
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,160
I gave him, right?
And if you have that attitude,

950
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,520
you're not gonna make it.
You have to understand

951
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:11,560
everything's God's.
You have to understand that

952
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:15,680
everybody's attitude in the
order is to build God's Kingdom,

953
00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:18,640
and you're working together to,
to maximize that effort.

954
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:23,040
The farmer isn't gonna bring it
up as much cash to give to the

955
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,640
Bishop at the end of the year.
No matter what you give him,

956
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,760
he's not going to produce as
much of a cash surplus as the

957
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,080
industrial guy is going to do or
the banker, you know, Right.

958
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,640
And so you give the most money
to the banker.

959
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:39,440
You give the most money to the
industrial guy who owns the, you

960
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,120
know, big company who's going to
buy a new machine that's going

961
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,880
to create a lot more jobs and
and ultimately bring a lot more

962
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,840
money into the community.
You know, And if you look at it

963
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,160
like we're all building
together, he's going to pay

964
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,680
100,000 toward the new church.
And I'm going to put 2000

965
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,040
towards in our church.
But we're both going to worship

966
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,960
there and we're both going to
learn there.

967
00:57:59,960 --> 00:58:02,280
And, you know, we're both going
to benefit from there.

968
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,640
And with if everybody's got that
attitude that we're working

969
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:09,600
together to build a community
and to build Zion, that's when

970
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,040
you can actually make it happen.
And then also, you know, the

971
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,320
point of this is what you're
doing to others, you're doing to

972
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,040
God.
So take care of the poor and the

973
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:23,320
widows and the orphans first
and, you know, do that.

974
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,480
So on that level, on just the
principal level of what the

975
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,840
Brethren were preaching is this
is the whole point.

976
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:31,960
That's what Centennial Park's
doing, right?

977
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:34,960
Interesting.
Now if I wanted to be a cynic

978
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:39,480
and be a jerk, probably, and
say, well, you're computing your

979
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:40,720
tithing wrong.
You're computing your

980
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,680
consecration wrong.
You're, you know, you're, you're

981
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:46,520
focusing on these things that
aren't even in the Doctrine of

982
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,560
Covenants.
You know, if I wanted to poke

983
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,320
and be critical about it, I
could find things to tell them

984
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,800
they're not doing right.
But at the end of the day, what

985
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,320
they are doing so well is what
the brethren were saying.

986
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,920
This is what the consecration's
trying to get you to do.

987
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,040
It's trying to teach you these
principles.

988
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,800
And it's the same thing like the
letter to Edward Partridge where

989
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,480
he's describing how to count,
calculate, tithing.

990
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,600
It's such a small number
compared to what everybody

991
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,920
teaches you to pay tithing.
And when I was looking at it

992
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,240
saying what's going on here,
I'm, I'm what?

993
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,560
This is what I'm seeing.
Tithing is a baby doctor for

994
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:26,360
consecration.
What's it trying to do?

995
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,080
It's trying to teach you to get
ready for consecration.

996
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:29,800
Well, what's consecration trying
to give you to you?

997
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,840
And Hebrews and Kimball
described it like this, trying

998
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,680
to get you to learn to love your
neighbor more than yourself.

999
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:43,760
It's trying to get you to learn
to love, to give and to find

1000
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:49,280
joy, compersion in the joy and
success of others instead of

1001
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,520
just your own success, your own
success.

1002
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,080
And that's what it's trying to
do.

1003
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,440
And that's all tithing is,
right.

1004
00:59:57,520 --> 00:59:59,320
You know, it's supposed to take
care of the poor.

1005
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,200
Frankly, if you calculate it
right, it's not going to take

1006
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,080
care of the poor.
You know, you're going to need

1007
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,560
more than that.
But it's it's trying, it's a

1008
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:09,240
stepping stone to get you to
feel good about it, you know?

1009
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,680
Right.
And yeah, and and so.

1010
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:15,280
Go ahead.
Sorry, no, go ahead.

1011
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,400
That's what I see with the,
that's what I see with

1012
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:20,440
consecration.
That is the principles behind

1013
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,800
it.
That's what the community is

1014
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,240
getting right.
And that's what the early

1015
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,040
brother were teaching about DNC
42.

1016
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:29,040
Whether they know that or not,
you know right.

1017
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,240
That's because they've got good
hearts and they're trying to

1018
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,560
take care of each other or
whatever their attitude is.

1019
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,040
They get it.
And so even if they're not doing

1020
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,760
things right, they're being
prosper because the principles

1021
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:45,240
they're planning are right.
And that's what the early Saints

1022
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,680
were not getting.
They weren't understanding the

1023
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,040
principles.
And that's what that's that's

1024
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,920
what the changes we read in the
DNC 42 are aimed at, is teaching

1025
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:54,600
the principles.
And that's what all the

1026
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,640
discourses about DNC 42 were
about.

1027
01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:00,120
As the brethren saying, guys,
you know, you're quibbling over

1028
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,560
all these details, but it's the
principles that you're missing,

1029
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,640
you know, worrying about what
the Bishop's spending the money

1030
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,760
on.
He's just trying to build the

1031
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,240
Kingdom, you know?
That's what everybody's doing

1032
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,920
and well.
I think I think to get to that

1033
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:20,440
point to where you would trust
and and and this is I'll be

1034
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:26,240
honest, this is part of the this
is part of the hard part about

1035
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:31,640
it right is that you have to
have if if you're going to live

1036
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:38,120
consecration you have to have
you have to be very comfortable

1037
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,600
with the organization that
you're part of right.

1038
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:45,680
That there's no corruption that
everybody is on the up and up

1039
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:53,200
and doing the best they can.
And and I think that is is is

1040
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,960
the hard thing with that there
is is trying to find that

1041
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:02,080
organization right and then
being able to say OK you have

1042
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:06,120
one bad actor but he's just one
bad actor and they removed him

1043
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:11,800
or whatever and then have that
kind of nuance as well but I

1044
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,960
think something else and and and
you've you've gone back to this

1045
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,040
a couple of times and and I
really like what you say there

1046
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,360
that that at at some point it's
about understanding the

1047
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:25,000
principle right of of what it is
we're doing.

1048
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:33,160
I I looked for a lot of years
for a church after my old man

1049
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:35,000
died.
Want to get more out of

1050
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,240
listening to the Mormon Renegade
podcast?

1051
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:40,920
Then go to the Mormon Renegade
Patreon page or click the link

1052
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,440
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1053
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,560
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1054
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,880
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1055
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,480
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1056
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,400
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1057
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,280
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1058
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,400
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1059
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,000
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1060
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,320
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1061
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,520
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1062
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:16,040
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1063
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,800
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1064
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,360
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1065
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:27,600
Show notes and Sign up today.
And I think I probably would

1066
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:30,760
have drove those early brethren
in the church nuts, 'cause I

1067
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:35,480
know I drove some of my leaders
in the LDS church nuts because I

1068
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,680
kept asking the question why?
Why?

1069
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:42,560
Why explain this?
I remember I had a girlfriend in

1070
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:44,800
high school who was like, you
should come check out my church

1071
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:50,800
and she was Catholic.
And so I kept asking why.

1072
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,960
And I remember I got told you're
not interested in learning.

1073
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,760
You're interested in picking
this apart.

1074
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,440
And I'm like, well, if it's God,
I think I should be a little

1075
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,160
choosy, right?
I mean, I think I, I should have

1076
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,840
this kind of figured out.
But those principles, right.

1077
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:11,720
It it.
And you pointed this out

1078
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,920
earlier, it was about trying to,
you know, consecration was still

1079
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:18,400
a stepping stone to that that
city of Enoch that people were

1080
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,840
trying to do that community,
that society.

1081
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:25,200
And I think Heber C Kimball
spelled that out.

1082
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,760
Well, if you want, you want
Enoch City, you want to be those

1083
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:30,040
people.
Well, this is what you got to

1084
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,520
do.
You got to love your neighbor at

1085
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:34,960
least as much as yourself, if
not more.

1086
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:42,880
And though we, we can talk about
rules, regulations, programs,

1087
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,640
covenants, conditions,
restrictions, all those things

1088
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:50,920
all day long.
But if we don't grasp the

1089
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,360
principle behind it, good luck,
good luck.

1090
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:58,560
Nobody was ever won over by a
program or a rule.

1091
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:01,800
And if they were, they didn't
last very long because at some

1092
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:06,840
point every program and every
rule loses its varnish, right?

1093
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:11,320
It it, it always becomes at some
point somewhat burdensome unless

1094
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:12,960
you understand the principle
behind it.

1095
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,600
Do you think that's what the
early Saints really struggled

1096
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,320
with more than anything else?
Was getting the principle or do

1097
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,240
you think there was other stuff
there at work with it?

1098
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:24,040
Yeah, I don't think they they
got the principle at all.

1099
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:30,040
There was, you know there there
was a core group of half dozen

1100
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,320
families that were interested
in.

1101
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,320
I don't see earlier
Candlelights, but now I forgot.

1102
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:38,680
I should just go off the top of
my head.

1103
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,560
But my my brain's already on a
different project.

1104
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:49,600
The they they had been
interested in a in a kind of a

1105
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:54,320
communal group they called the
family that was started and they

1106
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:57,320
were asking Joseph about it.
And so he that's when he got the

1107
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,000
revelation about it.
So some people were very

1108
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:04,440
interested in the idea of
consecration and you know what?

1109
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:07,560
I'm sure they gave it a
different name and they wanted

1110
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:09,680
to know more about it.
But most of the Saints were

1111
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:11,680
clueless.
They had no idea.

1112
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:14,320
And then you've got of course,
the immigrants coming from

1113
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:18,160
across the the globe coming in
and and converting and they had

1114
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:20,240
no concept or idea of what it
was.

1115
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,320
And then you've got all these
different cultural traditions of

1116
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:27,040
who takes care of a family and
how's it supposed to be done.

1117
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:31,120
And they all have to up into
that and do something completely

1118
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:34,720
different with, you know, the
way the the revelation comes

1119
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,000
out.
It was just it was they just

1120
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,320
didn't get it.
And frankly I don't think the

1121
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:45,880
concepts were outlined that much
in the original version and I I

1122
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:50,680
haven't compared to see what the
1844 version that is the subject

1123
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:54,320
of my book, how that compares to
the modern DNC.

1124
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,800
I've done that with other
sections and seen changes and

1125
01:06:57,800 --> 01:06:59,800
stuff.
But I I just, I don't care

1126
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:00,960
anymore.
I just want to know what the

1127
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,600
early brethren were teaching.
So that's as a historian that's

1128
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,040
what I'm interested in.
That's what I look at.

1129
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:08,880
But yeah, it it appears to me
they just didn't get the

1130
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,480
principles.
And the Brethren said that

1131
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:15,680
multiple times and said, so
let's let me drill this point

1132
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,400
into your head so that you can
understand the principles.

1133
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,080
But, you know, there's a lot of
changes constantly going on.

1134
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:24,240
They're getting kicked out of
Missouri.

1135
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:25,360
They're getting kicked out of
Nauvoo.

1136
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:26,920
They're going across this
country.

1137
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:30,280
They're getting threatened with,
you know, Johnson's Army and

1138
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:34,560
they've got Indian problems.
And you know, people again,

1139
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:37,680
immigrating from all over the
world by the thousands and

1140
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:40,520
trying to learn basic principles
and then add to that

1141
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:44,840
consecration and temple building
and there's just a lot to learn.

1142
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:51,560
And and you know I've, I've been
kind of amazed working on this

1143
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:56,520
particular project, the DNC
Annotated project, because I've

1144
01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:05,680
been I've been studying now very
heavily nearly 20 years and it

1145
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:08,600
put out like I don't know 1213
books or something like that,

1146
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:09,920
whatever that whatever it is
now.

1147
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:17,680
And I'm still learning tons, you
know and and I'm constantly

1148
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:20,720
running across new things that I
haven't seen before.

1149
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:25,080
And, you know, somebody from
Centennial Park said, well, have

1150
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:27,760
you seen the quotes by Joseph
that, you know, he, he wouldn't

1151
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:30,560
even do a United Order
organization anymore?

1152
01:08:31,359 --> 01:08:33,359
And I was like, no, I haven't
seen those.

1153
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:37,960
So I said, well, it's a Lyndon
Cook's book, Joseph Smith and

1154
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,000
Law Consecration.
So I ordered it just showed up

1155
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,520
today and I already found those
quotes and looked at them and

1156
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:48,200
that's not quite how I read it.
You know, He said while we're in

1157
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:51,600
poverty in Nauvoo, we're not
going to try and live

1158
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:56,640
consecration as outlined in 42
because we're all poor and

1159
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,960
interesting and we can't live
that law.

1160
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,319
We don't have the wealthy to
take, you know to start it off

1161
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:06,640
and we've got to have a certain
degree of wealth to get that

1162
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:13,479
going at any rate.
And also you know at that point

1163
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:17,240
another one of the quotes and I
I haven't fully delved into this

1164
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,160
so I'm, I'm not gonna, I don't
want to represent the entire

1165
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:21,439
book 'cause I haven't read it
yet.

1166
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:26,359
But he's he basically says we
need Saints that have already

1167
01:09:26,359 --> 01:09:29,520
covenanted in the temple and who
understand what it means.

1168
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:33,000
That's your foundation to
starting a united order.

1169
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:37,600
Interesting, which is you know,
that's interesting all by

1170
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:39,560
itself.
But you know from experience,

1171
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:45,000
you you, you have a united order
and you get in generations 234

1172
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:49,200
and you have kids growing up who
aren't endowed but whose parents

1173
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,680
have been in the United order
and they want to join the order

1174
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:54,760
too, you know.
But nobody says we have to be

1175
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:58,000
endowed first.
You just kind of let you start,

1176
01:09:58,160 --> 01:09:59,640
you know, join them, get a
doubt.

1177
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:02,240
When you get a doubt, you know
and some order.

1178
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:05,000
Some groups don't have the
endowment, and so that's not a

1179
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,040
starting point for them either.
No, that's fascinating that

1180
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:13,720
Joseph kind of put put a a few
litmus tests, I guess, if you

1181
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,600
will, on on living, the law of
con, the living united order,

1182
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,160
right.
This idea of, well, you can't

1183
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:27,720
start out with nothing and put
it together and then also go to

1184
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:31,640
the temple first.
That's fascinating.

1185
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,560
Yeah, yeah, I thought that.
I thought that was very

1186
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:39,200
significant.
And you know, when Joseph Smith

1187
01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:46,640
originally learned about the law
of tithing, he's, he said and I

1188
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:50,440
don't, I don't have the quote in
front of me, but he said, Lord,

1189
01:10:50,480 --> 01:10:54,040
I covenant to live this law as
soon as I get out of debt.

1190
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:00,000
And the reason he said that is
because you can't pay on surplus

1191
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:03,600
if your debt, because the by
definition of debt is you have

1192
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:07,360
no surplus, you have a deficit
instead of a surplus you can't

1193
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:10,880
pay tithing.
Well, now we've got all sorts of

1194
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:12,360
problems.
Well, what about borrowing for

1195
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:15,760
leveraging and you know, all
this sort of thing that's, is

1196
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:18,600
that really debt or is that an
asset that you're really

1197
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:23,280
calling?
You know, I mean, we modern

1198
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:25,240
society's got a lot of little
tricks like that they didn't

1199
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:27,960
have in Joseph's day.
But he understood the idea that

1200
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:30,680
you can't pay on a surplus if
you don't have one.

1201
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:35,120
So he says this as soon as I get
one, I will do that, but I don't

1202
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:39,040
have one yet, so I can't do it.
And so NGU, he's looking at a

1203
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:43,520
higher law that's kind of like
tithing that requires everybody

1204
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,480
have a surplus in the 1st place
and says none of us have a

1205
01:11:46,480 --> 01:11:50,440
surplus.
How do you even consecrate if

1206
01:11:50,440 --> 01:11:52,960
you don't have a surplus?
That's the whole point is you

1207
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:56,920
give your surplus, you know?
Well, I think that's interesting

1208
01:11:56,920 --> 01:11:59,880
too, right?
'cause for for some of my

1209
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:04,680
mainstream LDS audience, they're
not.

1210
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:08,960
That's something that that you
have to look that that.

1211
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,000
Let me rephrase that.
That's some doctrine that's

1212
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:16,320
buried deep this idea that you
play tithing on your surplus not

1213
01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:22,200
just wholesale right.
And and that that can blow blow

1214
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:24,680
people's minds and the fact
Joseph said you know makes that

1215
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:28,240
covenant as soon as I'm out of
debt shows that there's some

1216
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,120
sort of order to all this.
Right.

1217
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:36,760
So often I think people have
conceptions of what they think

1218
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,320
tithing, consecration was and
and united order, which was

1219
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:44,480
well, you just showed up and you
just, you you gave everything to

1220
01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:48,760
the Bishop and then you got a
little bit back and you know,

1221
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:52,520
you, you, you pay your tithing
no matter if you're making money

1222
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:54,880
or not, 'cause you got to, you
got to pay it, right?

1223
01:12:54,880 --> 01:13:00,080
You got you got to be able to to
be worthy to see your son get

1224
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:04,720
sealed to his wife or you know,
baptize your kids or something

1225
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:07,160
like that, right.
Very much.

1226
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:09,000
It's kind of an entry fee, so to
speak.

1227
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:12,720
Yeah.
When when Joseph talks about

1228
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:17,160
tithing it's a different picture
and I think it's even a

1229
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,400
different picture within 42.
I I think it's in 42.

1230
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:23,560
You could tell me if I'm wrong
or not where it talks about

1231
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:27,080
consecrating your your your
surplus right?

1232
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:31,560
Yeah, well, technically, and I I
kind of misspoke on that in 42,

1233
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:34,600
it does say you give everything
to the Bishop and he gives you

1234
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,440
what you need for your support
back as a steward in in

1235
01:13:38,440 --> 01:13:41,240
pragmatics.
You know, that basically means

1236
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,880
you're giving your surplus, you
know, 'cause you're getting

1237
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,600
everything you need back.
And nobody's going to take your

1238
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:50,000
fork and your razor and you
know, your, your, you know, your

1239
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:53,080
stuff that everybody's got.
They they want to look at what

1240
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:56,800
you have above and beyond what
everybody else has to see what's

1241
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:58,760
usable for something outside
your home.

1242
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:02,720
Because if I gave my stove to
the Bishop, I don't have one.

1243
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,560
It's not going to, you know, I'm
going to now be the poor and

1244
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:07,720
we're trying to get rid of the
poor.

1245
01:14:08,440 --> 01:14:12,200
So but later editions of the
sorry later sections of the

1246
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:16,040
Doctrine Covenants made that you
only consecrated your surplus.

1247
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:21,280
And you know, Joseph speaking
later, Nauvoo, that's what you

1248
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:24,520
know he was speaking toward.
So he you know.

1249
01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:31,520
Go ahead, sorry.
So, so to be clear, technically

1250
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,680
you gave everything in DNC 42
and you received what you needed

1251
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:36,920
back.
And if you had a disagreement,

1252
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:38,840
then you go to high council or
something.

1253
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:42,280
And Joseph specifically said
it's not just the Bishop's

1254
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:45,720
decision, but it's not just the
steward's decision either.

1255
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:48,680
You know, they come to an
agreement and if they can't,

1256
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:51,720
then they have a mediator.
But later it attended that to

1257
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:55,160
say, OK, don't give everything
because people are stressed that

1258
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:57,520
they're going to get kicked out
of the order and they go

1259
01:14:57,520 --> 01:14:59,840
apostate then they're not going
to have a house, they're not

1260
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:02,080
going to have cattle.
They're not going to have

1261
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:04,800
anything, right.
And that that's what they were

1262
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:06,560
worried about.
So they didn't want to do the

1263
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:10,080
United order at all.
So I said OK, just give your

1264
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,160
surplus and frankly that's
really the principle behind it

1265
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:15,240
anyways.
You determine what your surplus

1266
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:19,920
is and then you give that or
most of that to the Bishop and

1267
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:22,880
Joseph's looking at it,
recognizing you're you're in a

1268
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:25,840
standstill.
If nobody has a surplus, we've

1269
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:29,360
got nowhere to start.
You can you can band together

1270
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:34,000
like and this is really common
with Mexican families you know

1271
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:38,080
they come across the border and
and I've I've met a number of

1272
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:40,320
families like this and each
month they get together and

1273
01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:42,680
frankly the Rocky Ridge order
started this way too.

1274
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:45,720
They get together and at the end
of the month they say, OK, how

1275
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:49,240
much money do we have, You know,
and everybody throws their whole

1276
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:52,720
paycheck in cash on the table,
is it who needs what?

1277
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:55,480
And then everybody just kind of
says, well, I need this much.

1278
01:15:55,480 --> 01:15:58,000
And if they've got enough,
everybody divisions it out.

1279
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,720
And usually there's a deficit.
And somebody says, well, I can

1280
01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:03,640
hold off on the daughter's
dentist till next month, you

1281
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:05,880
know, And then they separate
their ways.

1282
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:10,440
Well, that's consecrated at
heart, but it doesn't get you

1283
01:16:10,440 --> 01:16:15,040
very far out of poverty until
somebody's really got a surplus.

1284
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:19,040
And I think by the time Joseph
was making these comments, in my

1285
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:24,440
view, he recognized if you don't
have a surplus, you know, you're

1286
01:16:24,440 --> 01:16:27,440
just doing like those groups of
Mexicans and and it's usually

1287
01:16:27,440 --> 01:16:30,040
extended family.
It's not like there's any hard

1288
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:32,680
feelings or anything, but
they're just kind of I'm giving

1289
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:35,880
you everything, right?
And who needs it the worst.

1290
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:38,920
Did they get it first.
And and we'll we'll all suffer

1291
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:41,440
for whoever needs it the worst
if necessary.

1292
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:45,720
And if that's so and so's
immigration fees, you know, so

1293
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:48,240
they can get an attorney so they
don't get deported, then that's

1294
01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:51,360
the most pressing issue.
That's what we pay for, right.

1295
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:53,400
We'll all work overtime and make
it happen.

1296
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:59,960
And that's not prospering.
That's just scraping pie and and

1297
01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:02,320
that's why I think Joseph said
as long as we're poor, we're not

1298
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:04,640
gonna try and organize anything.
It's not worth it.

1299
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:08,320
Let me ask you.
That.

1300
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:13,920
That recognition that Joseph had
that that hey we you know it

1301
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:16,000
it's on you know your surplus
right.

1302
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:20,920
Do you feel like that that is
kind of the the way it was

1303
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:23,960
supposed to be lived or do you
feel like that that's like

1304
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:28,440
taking a step back maybe like
with the children of Israel, not

1305
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:32,160
receiving all the covenants,
just receiving a portion?

1306
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:37,960
Yeah, kind of both.
OK, so here's here's how I see.

1307
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:41,160
And and this is where I I, I
take a step further back from

1308
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:45,080
all of this and say why did God
set up the consecration like he

1309
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:50,520
did in 42, right?
Why not just say determine what

1310
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:52,160
your surplus is and give that to
the Bishop.

1311
01:17:52,440 --> 01:17:54,360
That's what he did later.
But he didn't.

1312
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:57,640
Why?
What principle was he trying to

1313
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:02,280
teach in 42 that we don't get if
we just look at our surplus?

1314
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:07,800
And I that that principle as I
see it in the early brotherhood

1315
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,160
talked about, I've already
alluded to, but it's all things

1316
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:15,880
are gods.
If you give only your surplus

1317
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:17,800
you say I calculate my surplus.
Now I'm going to give some of

1318
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:21,160
that, OK, that's a good step.
That's beyond tithing.

1319
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:24,280
That's good.
But what do you, what's your

1320
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:28,400
mindset?
Your mindset is this is my stuff

1321
01:18:29,440 --> 01:18:32,560
and this is what I don't need,
that I bring in as my income

1322
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:37,440
that I've earned.
This is what I'm creating for

1323
01:18:37,440 --> 01:18:40,680
somebody else or for the for the
order or whatever.

1324
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:47,240
But I created this and and now
you can have it well, that that

1325
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:50,480
can be a giving heart.
That can be a good thing.

1326
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:54,440
But it's not understanding the
principle that everything is

1327
01:18:54,440 --> 01:18:56,880
God.
It's not saying God gave to me

1328
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:00,320
the talent to make this money.
God gave me the resources to

1329
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:03,760
make this money brick.
God made me healthy so that I

1330
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:07,320
can make this money.
You know, he didn't allow all

1331
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:10,400
these disasters these other
people are having into my life

1332
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:13,960
so that I would be poor or
crippled or unable to make this

1333
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:16,480
money.
They're not recognizing all of

1334
01:19:16,480 --> 01:19:23,480
these things or or they're able
to not see those principles with

1335
01:19:23,480 --> 01:19:25,480
the later version of of
consecration.

1336
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:30,480
So I see D and C42 as God saying
I'm trying to teach you this

1337
01:19:30,480 --> 01:19:36,880
principle and the net result is
the same as what I teach later

1338
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:39,160
in, you know, in the later
versions of the Doctrine of

1339
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:43,360
Covenants consecrate just your
surplus, you know, that all

1340
01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:46,080
shows up and the the net result
is the same.

1341
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:49,680
You know, if I say give
everything to Bishop, he gives

1342
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:52,800
me everything I need back and
the surplus is what he keeps

1343
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:54,880
versus I.
We determine what surplus is,

1344
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:58,000
then I give him the surplus.
The end result is the same

1345
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,440
amount.
But what's different is my

1346
01:20:01,440 --> 01:20:05,760
understanding of what I'm doing
with one understanding.

1347
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:09,120
I'm saying everything's God's.
I'm just giving it back to him

1348
01:20:09,480 --> 01:20:11,640
and I'm saying steward over what
I need.

1349
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:16,200
The other attitude is saying I
created a surplus because I'm a

1350
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:21,160
good guy, pat myself on the back
and I'm I'm, you know, talented

1351
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:23,880
or I'm awesome because I can
make a lot of money or whatever

1352
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:26,960
and I'm giving my surplus to
other people who aren't as good.

1353
01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:30,720
As me gotcha and.
I'm not saying that's what

1354
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:33,200
everybody's attitude would be,
but you can have that attitude.

1355
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:40,840
And so that's why I see God
revealing DNC 42 as is and then

1356
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:45,280
later changes as things go on.
He's, he's just saying, OK, he

1357
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,400
didn't understand the principles
behind here.

1358
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:49,480
So let's get to the nitty
gritty, 'cause that's what

1359
01:20:49,480 --> 01:20:52,440
you're so worried about.
What percentage of my surplus do

1360
01:20:52,440 --> 01:20:55,640
I get for for consecration?
That's what you want to know.

1361
01:20:55,640 --> 01:20:58,880
So let me help you with that.
And and then after you do that

1362
01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:00,520
for a while, you'll get the
spirit of it.

1363
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:03,760
You'll say, oh, this is what
it's really about.

1364
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:06,640
Give all of my time, talent and
efforts.

1365
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:11,640
I see.
OK, same thing as tithing.

1366
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:13,920
It's a small amount to encourage
you to say.

1367
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:16,160
I felt really good when I gave
that money to the beggar.

1368
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:20,520
I felt really good brother.
So and so just had an accident.

1369
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:22,160
He's been really poor this
month.

1370
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:26,400
We brought him over this big
meal and a couple coats for the

1371
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:27,760
kids because winter just
started.

1372
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:31,080
As kids grew out of last year's,
it felt so good to be able to Co

1373
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:33,400
give to them and help them out,
you know?

1374
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:35,200
And then you want to do it
again.

1375
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:39,920
You know, I know I had, I had
some experiences like that early

1376
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:41,480
in the church.
I grew up Pagan.

1377
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:43,480
I didn't know anything about
these things.

1378
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:48,080
And I I remember a couple times
being able to to help other

1379
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:51,560
families out and and doing a
secret Santa's type stuff, you

1380
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:56,960
know, and and just seeing
somebody who's really struggling

1381
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:01,640
just being because they got
help, you know, and you just

1382
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:03,120
feel so good.
You're just like, wow, I want to

1383
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:06,240
do that again.
That's to me what hiding is

1384
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:10,360
about and and and same thing
with the modified versions of

1385
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:14,760
consecration.
He's saying OK maybe you don't

1386
01:22:14,760 --> 01:22:17,320
understand the principle.
Let me let me give you kind of a

1387
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:20,600
Kickstarter here.
Let me give you something to

1388
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:25,480
spark that understanding in
yourself and and maybe you don't

1389
01:22:25,480 --> 01:22:28,040
get a full understanding of it
but at least you're on the right

1390
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:31,000
track.
That's how I see the emendations

1391
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:36,880
to the to the DNC that that show
up later and and when Brigham

1392
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:43,120
Young and I think it's John John
Timpson in Centennial Park come

1393
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:45,480
along and say what are you guys
willing to do.

1394
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:52,320
You know this is what we're
supposed to do but what are you

1395
01:22:52,720 --> 01:22:54,000
what are you really willing to
do.

1396
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:56,360
Because at the end of the day
that's better than doing

1397
01:22:56,360 --> 01:23:00,920
nothing.
It's at least stepping stone and

1398
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:04,520
and you know I to me and then I
said to the bill and then when

1399
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:08,280
he told me that was his stance.
I'm like that's genius right?

1400
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:14,240
Because I don't think like that
and and and this is where I I I

1401
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:16,080
have a really strong weakness
this way.

1402
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:20,120
Grocer Smith said two things and
they're heavily impactful on me

1403
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:23,520
and and I forget to step outside
of him sometimes.

1404
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:27,200
The one is he said I will stand
by true principle even if I'm

1405
01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:32,080
the only one and the other one
he said is I've made this my

1406
01:23:32,080 --> 01:23:35,760
rule with God commands I do it
well.

1407
01:23:36,280 --> 01:23:40,040
Those two statements those two
attitudes are not compatible

1408
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:42,720
with what are you willing to do
right.

1409
01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:44,600
That's not what God's asking you
to do.

1410
01:23:45,080 --> 01:23:46,200
Like, what are you willing to
do?

1411
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:52,760
You know, and and I think it's
in TPGS One 49150 where Joseph

1412
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:58,720
says when is a man?
He says when a man proves to God

1413
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:01,680
that he's willing to obey
regardless of the consequences,

1414
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:04,680
then he will have his calling
election mature.

1415
01:24:06,040 --> 01:24:08,400
So the attitude against God
commands, I do it.

1416
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:12,280
It's not well, God commands.
And well, this is what I'm

1417
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:15,720
willing to do, right?
That's not part of the equation.

1418
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,920
And and you know, there's a
different attitude that's

1419
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:23,960
required there.
And so I don't get past that.

1420
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:28,040
I was on my mission one time and
I was interviewing for baptism

1421
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:31,600
Russian.
It wasn't exactly family.

1422
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:35,840
It was kind of family and
friends and I was they were

1423
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:38,400
really poor.
And it is.

1424
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:41,280
I looked at this situation.
I didn't want to talk to him

1425
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:44,520
about tithing.
I I I was just like you.

1426
01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:47,040
You guys need help.
We shouldn't be asking for your

1427
01:24:47,040 --> 01:24:49,920
money.
Which at the time I didn't

1428
01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:52,880
realize this correct principle
and it's just how I felt about

1429
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:55,680
it, you know.
So I asked them what they

1430
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:58,680
understood about tithing and
then it comes, you know the

1431
01:24:58,760 --> 01:25:00,320
$1000 question, are you willing
to pay it?

1432
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,400
You know were you coming to do
this and you're going to get

1433
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:09,400
baptized, right.
So prerequisite And two I think

1434
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:15,320
out of of of the three family
heads that I spoke to said, I

1435
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:17,320
said well how do you feel about
paying tithing?

1436
01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:24,640
You know, one of them basically
said I don't like it, it's not

1437
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:28,320
enough.
And he said, God gives us

1438
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:31,440
everything.
We have our freedom, we have our

1439
01:25:31,440 --> 01:25:33,880
health, we have all of these
things.

1440
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:37,440
I've got my beautiful family and
I have to give him back. 10% is

1441
01:25:37,440 --> 01:25:42,920
nothing.
And I think I'm a missionary and

1442
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:46,400
I'm like completely humbled by
his attitude.

1443
01:25:46,480 --> 01:25:53,920
It's way better than mine is you
know my attitude is a is a 18

1444
01:25:53,920 --> 01:25:58,360
year old boy joining the church
was see see whether or not I

1445
01:25:58,360 --> 01:26:00,680
will not open the windows of
heaven for you if you pay your

1446
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:04,680
tithing you know.
And I paid my tithing for the

1447
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:10,120
first time because they said
just test him like broke man and

1448
01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:13,680
and I did and I got this huge
scholarship to college like boom

1449
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:16,080
right away way better than I
expected.

1450
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:18,720
And I was like, there you go,
see.

1451
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:20,720
Prove me now herewith, whether
or not it will open up the

1452
01:26:20,720 --> 01:26:22,640
windows of heaven and pour down
blessings upon you.

1453
01:26:22,640 --> 01:26:25,040
You know, I was like, OK, that's
my attitude.

1454
01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:27,880
That's how I learned.
And he's saying it's nothing.

1455
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:32,080
How could why even make a rule
of 10?

1456
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:34,760
That's just like baby doctrine,
man.

1457
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:36,760
You got to understand.
God gives you everything.

1458
01:26:37,480 --> 01:26:44,720
And and any rate, that attitude
is, is what I see germane in in

1459
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:48,760
the original section and in what
the early Brethren are teaching,

1460
01:26:49,040 --> 01:26:50,920
complaining the Saints aren't
getting it.

1461
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:52,760
It's like this is what you don't
understand.

1462
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:56,200
And here it is, King Benjamin,
right at the very beginning.

1463
01:26:56,280 --> 01:26:59,840
You know you're you're
unprofitable servants.

1464
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:04,160
Even the air you have is
borrowed everything that's made

1465
01:27:04,160 --> 01:27:06,200
of the earth.
Everything that you have in

1466
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:09,160
front of you is God's.
You're just a freaking steward.

1467
01:27:09,160 --> 01:27:11,600
You're borrowing it.
And when you die, it goes back

1468
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:14,560
to him.
You know, get rid of all your

1469
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:17,320
pride.
Who do you think you are, man?

1470
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:20,080
You got caught up in the world
thinking you're some awesome

1471
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:22,920
something rather and get over
it.

1472
01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:27,760
You're not that awesome you know
and and anyway that's that's

1473
01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:32,000
what I see over and over and
over and and and in each change

1474
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:34,440
and each page.
I just see that kind of a

1475
01:27:34,440 --> 01:27:42,240
message coming from the brethren
saying, OK, this is the the

1476
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:47,280
pinnacle of discipleship after
after plural marriage

1477
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:50,320
consecration.
That's that's the pinnacle of

1478
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:54,600
discipleship.
When are you willing to say I'm

1479
01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:57,120
not?
I don't have a duty just to

1480
01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:59,920
myself.
I don't have a duty just to take

1481
01:27:59,920 --> 01:28:02,640
care of my children.
I have a duty to take care of

1482
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:05,440
any of my brothers and sisters
who need help.

1483
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:09,240
And it's not a it's Oh, good for
you.

1484
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:12,640
You're a good boy, man.
You're just what a kind,

1485
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:15,120
charitable person you are.
No, that's my duty.

1486
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:22,200
That's something I'm supposed to
do because I'm supposed to adopt

1487
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:24,840
the principle of understanding,
to love your neighbor as

1488
01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:27,520
yourself.
And would I allow my neighbor to

1489
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:30,840
be cold in the winter?
You know, Would I allow myself

1490
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:32,360
to be cold in the middle of
winter?

1491
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:35,200
You know, No.
So why are you letting this

1492
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:36,840
brother live that way?
Because he's poor.

1493
01:28:37,480 --> 01:28:41,080
We brought it upon himself.
No, let's let's not think that

1494
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:44,920
way, you know?
And as soon as we get rid of all

1495
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:47,640
this pride and we start thinking
this way and we receive it as a

1496
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:51,320
duty, not just as a good job.
I'm, I'm awesome.

1497
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:54,720
You know, let's name the
foundation after me because I

1498
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:58,080
gave all the money.
Let's, you know, write down on

1499
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:01,520
the Burger King thing that I, I
donated money to this cause and

1500
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:05,160
put it on the wall, you know, so
that everybody donated some

1501
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:09,040
money.
Get over yourself and just do it

1502
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:13,440
because you love them, you know,
It's the same attitude as as the

1503
01:29:13,440 --> 01:29:16,440
savior.
He doesn't get anything out of

1504
01:29:16,440 --> 01:29:21,280
the deal of the atonement.
He doesn't, you know, I mean,

1505
01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:24,240
maybe he gets more glory, but,
you know, really, what does he

1506
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:26,240
get out of it?
He's not alone in heaven.

1507
01:29:26,440 --> 01:29:30,920
That's when he gets out of it,
you know, and it's it's all for

1508
01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:33,800
us, you know?
I mean, it's unless you just

1509
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:35,960
want to say he's selfish because
he doesn't want to be lonely,

1510
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:39,520
you know?
But the the whole gospel program

1511
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:44,680
is let me lift you all up to be
where I'm at and let me help you

1512
01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:48,880
to achieve what I've achieved.
Let me bring you, God says I

1513
01:29:48,880 --> 01:29:51,320
will make you join heirs.
I'm going to give you everything

1514
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:54,120
I've got.
The whole gospel program is to

1515
01:29:54,120 --> 01:29:58,520
bless everybody with the
blessings you have and and

1516
01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:01,440
increase that, enlarge that as
much as possible.

1517
01:30:02,000 --> 01:30:06,200
And if you have that attitude
then you look at consecration,

1518
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:08,160
you're like well that's just the
whole point of the gospel.

1519
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:13,320
It's just to to bring everybody
up to the same level and to keep

1520
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:16,520
continue to do that.
It's the opposite of crabs in

1521
01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:18,600
the bucket, right?
Absolutely.

1522
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:21,120
You pull each other out of the
bucket instead of keeping each

1523
01:30:21,200 --> 01:30:24,080
other in the bucket.
Absolutely, Yep, 100%.

1524
01:30:24,640 --> 01:30:28,360
Let me ask you this question.
We we kind of started here

1525
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:36,800
reading Orson Pratt and Orson
makes the statement that that

1526
01:30:37,600 --> 01:30:41,160
the Lord rescinded so.
Does, yeah.

1527
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:45,680
Living United Order.
Do you think that's he revoked?

1528
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:47,080
This.
Revoked.

1529
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:49,440
Thank you.
Do you think that that's correct

1530
01:30:49,480 --> 01:30:54,360
what he said there?
Sort of.

1531
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:56,160
You know, I look at it like
this.

1532
01:30:57,240 --> 01:30:59,560
'Cause that's a dangerous
precedent, if that's correct,

1533
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:01,320
right?
Right.

1534
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:04,480
Right.
Well and and I think and and

1535
01:31:04,480 --> 01:31:06,720
there's no revelation saying I
revoked this law.

1536
01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:10,360
So I I think Muslim Pratt's
extrapolating a little bit and

1537
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:14,640
frankly he he was pretty from
about rebuking the Saints for

1538
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:17,240
not living it and saying we need
to get back to it.

1539
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:23,760
But I think his point is correct
and it in a so this is this is

1540
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:26,160
kind of how to say this and we
talked about this in a previous

1541
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:31,040
podcast but God gives the Old
Testament law in in Deuteronomy

1542
01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:33,640
10.
Joseph translation roses comes

1543
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:35,640
down from mount with fullness of
the gospels sees people

1544
01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:38,520
worshipping gold cows breaks the
fullness of the gospel tablets

1545
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:41,920
comes back with 10 commandments.
Well that sucks.

1546
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:45,840
The the 10 commandments are
pretty chintzy version of the

1547
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:49,440
gospel.
You can you can laud them and

1548
01:31:49,440 --> 01:31:53,000
say well you know the if you
take the principles behind them

1549
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:55,800
expands the whole gospel.
You know love your neighbor as

1550
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:59,520
yourself is a lot better thing
than saying don't don't worship

1551
01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:01,760
idols.
You know I mean there's just

1552
01:32:01,760 --> 01:32:05,240
they're different levels of the
gospel and they were cursed.

1553
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:07,720
That's what God says.
You know, that was a curse,

1554
01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:10,080
Justice said.
That was a cursing to those

1555
01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:15,640
people to have a lesser law.
But at the same time, if God

1556
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:17,960
would have given them the
fullness of the gospel while

1557
01:32:17,960 --> 01:32:22,080
they are worshipping a golden
idol, they would have all been a

1558
01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:25,520
condemnation for all the new
light and knowledge they had and

1559
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:31,080
were not willing to live.
So this, this is what I see in

1560
01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:34,240
the Doctrine of Covenants.
Is God saying, OK, I gave you

1561
01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:36,560
the fullness.
That's what this dispensation is

1562
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:38,680
about.
It's about the fullness of the

1563
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:41,360
gospel.
But now that I've given you the

1564
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:45,120
fullness and you see that you're
not willing to live it, let me

1565
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:49,920
give you a a, a pacifier and
make it a little bit easier for

1566
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:54,080
you to swallow and a little bit
easier for you to understand and

1567
01:32:54,080 --> 01:32:56,880
a little bit of a lesser law.
But it's not too much of A

1568
01:32:56,880 --> 01:33:01,160
downgrade, you know, Let me give
you something else that you can

1569
01:33:01,280 --> 01:33:03,920
do so that you're not under
condemnation for not living

1570
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:05,440
everything.
You're doing your best.

1571
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:08,360
And then he says, oh, you
weren't willing to do that

1572
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:10,480
either.
Let's do it again.

1573
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:12,200
And then ultimately, here's
tithing.

1574
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:21,000
And and to be to be fair, and I
think tithing is an important

1575
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:24,040
principle at some level.
I make the argument for it.

1576
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:28,480
But at the end of the day, I
don't like tithing because

1577
01:33:28,480 --> 01:33:33,840
tithing to me represents the
baby version, that what you do

1578
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:37,680
if you're not willing to live
the fullness of the gospel, you

1579
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:40,480
know, it's being a Christian
instead of being a Mormon.

1580
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:44,000
It's being a Muslim instead of
being a Christian, It's a lesser

1581
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:46,680
law.
And I don't want to live the

1582
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:49,440
lesser law, I want to live the
higher law.

1583
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:52,760
And if I'm screwing up and
falling and skinning my knees

1584
01:33:52,760 --> 01:33:56,480
all the day long, that's OK with
me as long as I know I'm trying

1585
01:33:56,480 --> 01:33:59,240
to live the fullness.
And if I'm doing something less

1586
01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:00,800
than, I'm just disappointed with
myself.

1587
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:08,520
So I just got lost somewhere in
in the question, I apologize.

1588
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:12,520
No.
But do do you feel like like the

1589
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:17,720
commandment to to live united,
order still still enforced?

1590
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:19,480
I don't.
I don't think it was revoked.

1591
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:26,120
But I I I appreciate Orson's
perspective and I see it more

1592
01:34:26,120 --> 01:34:29,720
like this.
God took consecration from the

1593
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:32,520
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints, and He gave it to

1594
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:37,760
the Church of the First born.
If you're endowed now, you have

1595
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:41,520
the consecration upon you.
You've taken a covenant to live

1596
01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:43,680
it, live it, it's expected of
you.

1597
01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:48,120
But if you haven't been to the
temple, then tithing is what is

1598
01:34:48,120 --> 01:34:50,280
expected of you in the Doctrine
Covenants.

1599
01:34:51,240 --> 01:34:53,200
I I would.
It seems to me what the early

1600
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:57,440
brethren taught, that no, you
don't have to live consecration,

1601
01:34:57,720 --> 01:34:59,280
just live tithing.
It's OK.

1602
01:35:00,680 --> 01:35:02,280
Oh, now you've been through the
temple.

1603
01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:06,520
Well, we don't have a formal way
of living consecration.

1604
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:12,000
Just do your best, you know, and
that sounds nice, that nobody

1605
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:14,000
really does it without a
structure.

1606
01:35:14,480 --> 01:35:18,920
You know, I I was in the church
for a good dozen years and or

1607
01:35:18,920 --> 01:35:21,280
more, I don't really remember.
I'd have to go back and think

1608
01:35:21,280 --> 01:35:25,120
about it.
But you know, I there's a lot of

1609
01:35:25,120 --> 01:35:28,920
amazing people in the church.
But to say that you're

1610
01:35:28,920 --> 01:35:33,920
consecrated, give all of your
surplus, or 80% of your surplus,

1611
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:38,160
or whatever, you're focusing all
of your extra effort to make

1612
01:35:38,160 --> 01:35:42,280
your brother as yourself.
There's too, way too much wealth

1613
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:45,520
disparity to even begin to make
that argument in the church.

1614
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:51,080
You know individuals, sometimes,
rarely.

1615
01:35:51,480 --> 01:35:54,960
You know, most of the
individuals in the church that I

1616
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:58,040
met who were more consecrated
than anybody else were frankly

1617
01:35:58,040 --> 01:36:01,760
just wealthy and they still had
way more surplus that they could

1618
01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:06,800
have done more with, right?
And that's that's not ripping on

1619
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:09,280
them saying they're bad people.
I benefited from some of those

1620
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:12,000
people and some of those were
really good friends of mine.

1621
01:36:13,360 --> 01:36:16,680
But it's that's different than
say, their living consecration

1622
01:36:16,680 --> 01:36:21,320
as outlined in the DNC, right?
You know, even without a formal

1623
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:26,000
organization to have the
attitude everything's God's, I

1624
01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:30,480
make 4000 surplus a month and or
10,000 surplus a month.

1625
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:33,920
Are you giving 10,000 surplus a
month?

1626
01:36:34,640 --> 01:36:37,880
Are you using that surplus to
make an even greater surplus of

1627
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:42,560
giving a huge portion of that to
to poor people every month or to

1628
01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:45,040
a, you know, building the
Kingdom somehow?

1629
01:36:45,640 --> 01:36:48,600
Or do you have 100,000 in your
4O1K?

1630
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:51,640
Do you have a three quarter
$1,000,000 house?

1631
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:54,000
Nobody needs a three quarter
$1,000,000 house.

1632
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:56,240
I've lived in one before.
It's really, really nice.

1633
01:36:56,720 --> 01:37:01,080
But you don't need that, you
know, Right.

1634
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:06,880
So you know, that's that's a
very, very different question

1635
01:37:07,440 --> 01:37:10,840
and it seems to be kind of what
I'm seeing with Joseph Smith too

1636
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:12,400
with those quotes I was alluding
to earlier.

1637
01:37:12,400 --> 01:37:15,040
And I haven't fully investigated
the depth of him and checked

1638
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:17,320
around the original sources and
that sort of stuff to get

1639
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:21,640
context.
But she seems to be saying, you

1640
01:37:21,640 --> 01:37:26,040
know, you, you committed
consecration in the temple that

1641
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:30,240
you're on your own, figured out,
well, that's OK.

1642
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:33,960
But how do I figured out I have
to go back to Doctrine

1643
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:36,680
Covenants, right?
I mean, that's the revelation,

1644
01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:42,240
but it's also kind of like, you
know, the 1886 revelation on

1645
01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:46,080
plural marriage where it says
I'm, I'm taking away that burden

1646
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:48,080
from the church and now it's on
the individual.

1647
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:51,360
It's the same kind of attitude.
It doesn't necessarily mean

1648
01:37:51,360 --> 01:37:54,000
that's the best.
That's just pragmatics of how

1649
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:56,880
things are working.
Saints aren't willing to live

1650
01:37:56,880 --> 01:37:59,600
consecration.
So the three of you who want to

1651
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:04,880
live it, good luck, You have my
blessing, do whatever you want

1652
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:08,240
and I will be proud of you,
'cause it's better what

1653
01:38:08,240 --> 01:38:12,560
everybody else is doing.
Gotcha, Gotcha.

1654
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:16,760
No, that makes sense.
Well, dude, that was good stuff.

1655
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:22,960
Yeah, it's it's.
I've really been excited I'm

1656
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:25,200
working on this project.
I never thought I would be

1657
01:38:25,200 --> 01:38:27,160
learning so much.
That's awesome.

1658
01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:33,000
You were saying earlier that you
know is is is the changes of the

1659
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:37,000
revelation Joseph expressing
himself or you know learning to

1660
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:40,720
express himself better.
DNC 76 is even more like that

1661
01:38:40,720 --> 01:38:45,440
because we've got the poetic
version rewrites 76 and says

1662
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:50,960
this is what it means, you know,
and and gosh, it's such a

1663
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:55,120
blessing to have that.
And and that's why I started

1664
01:38:55,120 --> 01:38:58,920
going to find all the commentary
of the Brethren about the

1665
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:01,920
Doctrine Covenants is because
they're saying this is what

1666
01:39:01,920 --> 01:39:06,320
Joseph meant or Joseph talked to
me about this principle and this

1667
01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:09,080
is what he said.
And so I understand this DNC

1668
01:39:09,080 --> 01:39:11,720
verse differently because of
what he taught me.

1669
01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:15,600
And you know, you get all these
gems and it just completely

1670
01:39:15,600 --> 01:39:17,800
expands the understanding of
what was going on.

1671
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:22,440
I was totally sold on this
historian's perspective.

1672
01:39:22,440 --> 01:39:25,240
That consecration was just
everybody's just giving it a

1673
01:39:25,240 --> 01:39:26,720
shot.
Trying it didn't work out.

1674
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:29,920
So he gave it up.
You know, I I mean, I wasn't

1675
01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:32,440
100% sold on that, but it looked
like there's a lot of.

1676
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:38,040
Evidence that way A.
Lot of humanity behind those

1677
01:39:38,040 --> 01:39:41,560
efforts and how else do you
interpret it?

1678
01:39:41,640 --> 01:39:45,000
But now that I've read what
their commentary is, I see the

1679
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:48,640
humanity behind it was them
saying, OK, I'm not gonna tell

1680
01:39:48,640 --> 01:39:50,960
you what to do, brother, I'm not
gonna tell you.

1681
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:54,160
The doctrine Covenant says to do
it this way, and the Bishop says

1682
01:39:54,160 --> 01:39:55,920
this.
I'm coming to you and saying

1683
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:59,640
what are you willing to do?
And I'm going to get a group of

1684
01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:02,680
people together and whatever
they're willing to do, we'll use

1685
01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:06,560
that as a stepping stone.
That's that's what they were

1686
01:40:06,560 --> 01:40:08,240
teaching.
And now that's, that's my

1687
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:10,040
perspective, that's what the
humanity is.

1688
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:13,280
And and I think it's significant
difference because now the

1689
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:17,240
humanity is not on the Prophet,
now the humanity is on people.

1690
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:21,480
Absolutely.
And I think that's an important

1691
01:40:21,480 --> 01:40:23,480
distinction.
It's something to be aware of,

1692
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:24,520
you know?
Yeah.

1693
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:29,240
Let me ask this last question
before I leave because I I I'm

1694
01:40:29,240 --> 01:40:33,680
gonna go back to this because I
find it disturbing what I'm

1695
01:40:33,680 --> 01:40:37,840
seeing.
And I you're you're you're a

1696
01:40:37,840 --> 01:40:40,800
real intelligent guy.
You're well read you're you're

1697
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:46,560
you're an author.
Explain to people how

1698
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:51,080
consecration and united order is
different than socialism.

1699
01:40:59,960 --> 01:41:02,160
I I think the PAD answer is a
good one.

1700
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:07,040
I think the PAD answer is one's
voluntary and one's not.

1701
01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:16,880
But I I think the real thing is
socialism is an administrative

1702
01:41:16,880 --> 01:41:20,600
form of government and
economics.

1703
01:41:21,760 --> 01:41:27,920
The United order is in an effort
to teach people principles to

1704
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:32,600
make them closer to God and
that's a fundamental difference

1705
01:41:33,480 --> 01:41:37,480
And and if you you know, for
anybody listening what I would

1706
01:41:37,480 --> 01:41:41,040
have been trying to express when
I asked the question why did God

1707
01:41:41,040 --> 01:41:44,720
reveal DNC 42 as is knowing we
would reject it.

1708
01:41:46,080 --> 01:41:48,720
Knowing the Saints would reject
revision #1.

1709
01:41:49,400 --> 01:41:54,040
Knowing the Saints would reject
revision #2 because he was

1710
01:41:54,040 --> 01:41:59,480
trying to teach them principles
first and when they rejected the

1711
01:41:59,480 --> 01:42:05,400
principle he gave them more
administrative direction to try

1712
01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:10,280
and give them something you
could do with your hands and in

1713
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:14,840
with your body to make a
difference in in in how you're

1714
01:42:14,840 --> 01:42:18,960
living the gospel To give you a
kick start to learning those

1715
01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:22,720
principles.
The the one of the things that

1716
01:42:22,720 --> 01:42:28,080
is not taught very well in the
church it it it's actually had

1717
01:42:28,080 --> 01:42:31,840
some opposition by some some of
the brethren about 50-60 years

1718
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:35,960
ago and isn't very well taught
in a lot of fundamentalism is

1719
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:42,720
the purpose of the gospel is to
learn truth, receive it, and

1720
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:45,040
then live it.
The early brethren taught that a

1721
01:42:45,040 --> 01:42:47,120
lot.
I even even found some quotes

1722
01:42:47,120 --> 01:42:51,800
from Joseph Smith that weren't
published very well and some of

1723
01:42:51,800 --> 01:42:56,000
them hard, really hard to find,
saying, you know, knowledge is

1724
01:42:56,000 --> 01:42:59,080
the power of salvation.
You know you're learning

1725
01:42:59,080 --> 01:43:03,440
principles, and the more
principles that you learn, the

1726
01:43:03,440 --> 01:43:06,960
more you become like God and you
find the joy and blessing in it,

1727
01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:12,600
DNC 130 verse 20 says, You know,
that's the famous every, every

1728
01:43:12,600 --> 01:43:14,800
blessing is predicated upon
keeping a commandment.

1729
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:16,320
So why do we have the
commandments?

1730
01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:20,240
They're to teach as principles,
but when we live by them bring

1731
01:43:20,240 --> 01:43:24,120
us blessings.
And so the purpose of

1732
01:43:24,120 --> 01:43:29,240
consecration is to teach us to
love our neighbor as ourselves

1733
01:43:29,240 --> 01:43:32,840
or more than ourselves or
whatever, and to acknowledge

1734
01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:37,040
that all things are God and it's
we can get that lip service and

1735
01:43:37,040 --> 01:43:39,960
that's another thing that Orson
Orson Pratt noted.

1736
01:43:40,320 --> 01:43:45,120
He said what DNC 42 did is he
taught the people that they said

1737
01:43:45,120 --> 01:43:47,960
that they were willing to do
stuff but what they found doubt

1738
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:54,640
is their lips believed it but
their hearts did not and and so

1739
01:43:54,640 --> 01:43:57,040
it's really easy to say well
love others it's yourself OK I

1740
01:43:57,040 --> 01:44:00,200
can I can do that It's you know
you should recognize all things

1741
01:44:00,200 --> 01:44:02,400
come from.
OK I can do that all right.

1742
01:44:02,400 --> 01:44:07,680
So you you make $1700 extra
month that you don't really need

1743
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:09,560
for food or clothing or anything
What are you doing with it.

1744
01:44:10,400 --> 01:44:14,080
Well, I just keep it in my bank
and and you know, sometimes we

1745
01:44:14,080 --> 01:44:16,960
go on vacations and you know we
do all these nice things say

1746
01:44:16,960 --> 01:44:19,320
well, your brother so and so
downs.

1747
01:44:19,360 --> 01:44:22,080
I I don't care what ward branch,
I don't care what part of the

1748
01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:24,560
restoration you're at.
You know, somebody who's not as

1749
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:28,520
well off as you are.
You actively trying to make that

1750
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:32,400
person's life as good as yours
'cause if you're not you don't

1751
01:44:32,400 --> 01:44:38,200
really your lips believe but
your heart doesn't because if

1752
01:44:38,200 --> 01:44:41,360
your heart really believed you
would be trying to make sure

1753
01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:44,920
that Everett that there was no
pour among you and and you would

1754
01:44:44,920 --> 01:44:49,120
be trying to do that because you
know that's true principle and

1755
01:44:49,120 --> 01:44:53,640
you love them And that's that's
really what I see with

1756
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:57,680
consecration.
It's it's not the administrative

1757
01:44:57,680 --> 01:45:01,280
forms of it are are there to
kick start us.

1758
01:45:01,680 --> 01:45:03,920
And and that's where I see
that's where I was getting at

1759
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:06,520
earlier that's where I think
Centennial Park really nails it.

1760
01:45:07,560 --> 01:45:10,960
Maybe they're not getting the
administrative details correctly

1761
01:45:11,040 --> 01:45:13,920
and and I can make a very strong
argument they're not if you

1762
01:45:13,920 --> 01:45:15,760
believe Joseph's the prophet,
they are not.

1763
01:45:16,280 --> 01:45:20,600
But they got the principle
behind it well, and they got it

1764
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:23,800
right.
And that's to me, that's why

1765
01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:28,240
they're succeeding, because they
learned a lesson even if they

1766
01:45:28,240 --> 01:45:34,680
didn't learn, you know, the the
maybe they took a, a path that

1767
01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:38,000
was waving back and forth on,
you know, on the way upward

1768
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:40,600
instead of a straight line.
But they're still getting,

1769
01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:42,880
they're moving in the general
right direction and their course

1770
01:45:42,880 --> 01:45:46,240
correctly as they move on and
their hearts are right.

1771
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:49,560
And that's the big difference to
me between consecration and

1772
01:45:49,560 --> 01:45:51,600
socialism.
Socialism doesn't care about

1773
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:53,480
principle.
They don't care about where your

1774
01:45:53,480 --> 01:45:55,160
heart is.
They don't care about what

1775
01:45:55,160 --> 01:45:56,440
you're learning.
They don't care if you

1776
01:45:56,440 --> 01:45:58,720
understand that God is the owner
of everything.

1777
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:00,360
They don't.
They don't care about any of

1778
01:46:00,360 --> 01:46:03,520
those things.
But that's the whole point of

1779
01:46:03,520 --> 01:46:07,200
consecration it.
At the end of the day, God

1780
01:46:07,200 --> 01:46:10,000
doesn't care if you've got two
houses or three.

1781
01:46:10,440 --> 01:46:13,760
He doesn't care if you've got
four cars or a beater.

1782
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:16,480
He doesn't care about a lot of
these details.

1783
01:46:16,480 --> 01:46:21,520
So long as there's no poor among
you, so long as people aren't

1784
01:46:21,520 --> 01:46:25,400
suffering below you, and so long
as you're willing to give to

1785
01:46:25,400 --> 01:46:31,440
somebody who needs it, right.
That's, you know, I'll give you

1786
01:46:31,440 --> 01:46:38,160
another example, Rocky Ridge, I
had a friend and one of the one

1787
01:46:38,160 --> 01:46:41,200
of the founders there and his
daughter came to him once and he

1788
01:46:41,200 --> 01:46:42,440
bought her a car for her
birthday.

1789
01:46:43,760 --> 01:46:45,920
And she came to him and she
said, dad, I feel really guilty

1790
01:46:45,920 --> 01:46:49,360
have this car because, you know,
I know that there are families

1791
01:46:50,200 --> 01:46:57,080
that don't have as nice of a car
as I have, you know, And and he

1792
01:46:57,080 --> 01:46:58,680
said, well, let me ask you a
question.

1793
01:46:59,480 --> 01:47:05,640
If one of these families had no
car and really needed one, would

1794
01:47:05,640 --> 01:47:08,880
you give it to them?
And she said, well, sure.

1795
01:47:09,920 --> 01:47:11,320
And he said then it's a
righteous one.

1796
01:47:14,440 --> 01:47:16,760
And.
And to me, that's that.

1797
01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:22,520
That's the attitude, you know,
OK, people, you know, what's his

1798
01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:27,120
name?
Christian Bale drives like some

1799
01:47:27,120 --> 01:47:30,040
nice truck, but it's not, it's a
beater.

1800
01:47:30,440 --> 01:47:32,880
I mean, doesn't look like a
Lamborghini Maserati.

1801
01:47:33,280 --> 01:47:38,720
It's not a fancy looking car.
It's just it it, it, it's, it's

1802
01:47:38,720 --> 01:47:40,880
really what's the word?
It's mechanically sound.

1803
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:42,520
It doesn't break down, right,
right.

1804
01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:46,080
And this guy could buy any car
he wants in the world, but he

1805
01:47:46,080 --> 01:47:48,840
buys a nice pickup truck because
he can carry stuff for people

1806
01:47:48,840 --> 01:47:51,800
once in a while and you know it
doesn't fall apart.

1807
01:47:52,360 --> 01:47:56,560
And and so he's got this
attitude.

1808
01:47:56,560 --> 01:47:59,880
He's not living above his
neighbor, you know, and and she

1809
01:47:59,880 --> 01:48:02,640
she's like the same thing.
I have a nice car.

1810
01:48:02,760 --> 01:48:05,160
It's not a fancy car, but it's
better than what other people

1811
01:48:05,160 --> 01:48:07,880
have.
Is that OK?

1812
01:48:07,880 --> 01:48:10,800
Well, who's are you living above
everybody else?

1813
01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:14,120
Kristen Bell's like, no, you
know, Keanu Reeves.

1814
01:48:14,120 --> 01:48:16,240
No, I ride the same subway as
everybody else.

1815
01:48:16,480 --> 01:48:18,840
I give people seats whenever
there's an open seat.

1816
01:48:19,360 --> 01:48:22,760
That's the attitude that that
makes the difference, you know,

1817
01:48:23,560 --> 01:48:26,240
and and that's what he was
trying to teach her.

1818
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:30,280
And you know you could nitpick
over details of that, that

1819
01:48:30,280 --> 01:48:32,960
principle and how he's teaching
or whatever, but I think for a

1820
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:35,240
16 year old girl, that's a
really good explanation and

1821
01:48:35,240 --> 01:48:39,920
understanding and that's really
what Consecration's trying to

1822
01:48:39,920 --> 01:48:43,880
teach us.
And and frankly Latter Day

1823
01:48:43,880 --> 01:48:46,880
Saints as a whole, we we don't
get that.

1824
01:48:48,160 --> 01:48:53,360
I I see pockets of it.
I saw a lot of that in Missouri,

1825
01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:57,240
in in those building the temple.
Those are some very consecrated

1826
01:48:57,240 --> 01:49:02,800
men and you know best top notch
people in the world very

1827
01:49:02,800 --> 01:49:05,640
impressed with them.
It some of the people at Rocky

1828
01:49:05,640 --> 01:49:10,240
Ridge you know I've I've seen
people that could be multi

1829
01:49:10,240 --> 01:49:13,280
millionaires living high on the
hog and they walk around like

1830
01:49:13,280 --> 01:49:15,800
everybody else and they give all
their money to the order and

1831
01:49:17,240 --> 01:49:20,720
best people in the world you
know so there there are some out

1832
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:26,120
there and I'm I'm not suggesting
we're not but as a whole all the

1833
01:49:26,120 --> 01:49:30,440
restoration movements looking at
us are we consecrated truly not

1834
01:49:30,440 --> 01:49:35,520
not even close not even close.
We have so many poor among us.

1835
01:49:36,480 --> 01:49:37,720
Yeah.
And.

1836
01:49:37,720 --> 01:49:43,360
And for what, You know, I mean,
if the church can have whatever

1837
01:49:43,360 --> 01:49:48,200
$4 billion shopping center
across from the temple, surely,

1838
01:49:48,560 --> 01:49:51,640
you know, and I read a stat once
that, you know, all their extra

1839
01:49:51,640 --> 01:49:53,800
money could buy a house for
every member of the church.

1840
01:49:54,480 --> 01:49:56,360
You know, I mean, imagine what
you got rid of the mortgage

1841
01:49:56,360 --> 01:49:59,360
payment for every member of the
church, what that would look

1842
01:49:59,360 --> 01:50:03,480
like 10 years from now if they
were consecrated in giving even

1843
01:50:03,480 --> 01:50:09,000
just tithing their money.
You know, at any rate, they're

1844
01:50:09,240 --> 01:50:10,680
we're just, we're not
consecrated.

1845
01:50:10,720 --> 01:50:13,160
We're not living these laws as a
whole.

1846
01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:19,240
And I I think that's really sad.
We.

1847
01:50:19,600 --> 01:50:24,680
Talked about I also get it, you
know, Do I want to take my kids

1848
01:50:24,680 --> 01:50:26,360
on vacation?
Yeah, brother.

1849
01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:27,640
So.
And So's car broke down.

1850
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:30,560
Do I buy him a car instead?
Dang it.

1851
01:50:30,560 --> 01:50:32,880
I haven't been on vacation for
four years, you know?

1852
01:50:33,680 --> 01:50:40,880
Yeah, brother So and So's.
You know, I think this is just

1853
01:50:40,880 --> 01:50:45,320
me looking at it from a very
academic point of view, having

1854
01:50:45,320 --> 01:50:53,520
never lived fully consecrated
within a community, my guess is,

1855
01:50:53,560 --> 01:50:58,720
is that once that community is
up off the ground, right, and

1856
01:50:58,720 --> 01:51:01,720
it's raising all ships, so to
speak, right?

1857
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:05,680
The tide, raise those all ships.
I don't think there would be a

1858
01:51:05,680 --> 01:51:10,720
lot of want of not being able to
take your family away for a

1859
01:51:10,720 --> 01:51:13,080
vacation for a week or whatever.
Right.

1860
01:51:13,640 --> 01:51:15,960
Right.
That's a temporary sacrifice.

1861
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:20,000
That's a temporary sacrifice for
for a long term benefit.

1862
01:51:20,560 --> 01:51:22,960
Yeah, that will.
Becoming the most wealthy people

1863
01:51:22,960 --> 01:51:24,120
on the planet.
Right.

1864
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:26,640
I I think those things would
come in time.

1865
01:51:30,200 --> 01:51:35,400
And I I think that's been
largely 'cause if we look

1866
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:40,160
through history, we have places
like Orderville that weren't

1867
01:51:40,160 --> 01:51:45,200
very successful and were in some
ways downright harsh.

1868
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:48,960
But then you got the Brigham
City model that seemed to do

1869
01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:52,920
very well for a long time, like
it could have kept going had

1870
01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:54,960
they chose to do it sort of a
thing.

1871
01:51:56,200 --> 01:52:02,120
And I think too often there's
been a extra focus on the ones

1872
01:52:02,120 --> 01:52:06,080
that didn't do so well, right.
Those, those cooperatives or

1873
01:52:06,080 --> 01:52:10,440
whatever.
The the other thing I would I

1874
01:52:10,440 --> 01:52:17,440
would say about about this whole
thing is that and and I've been

1875
01:52:17,440 --> 01:52:22,400
banging this drum for a while
and I'm not.

1876
01:52:25,040 --> 01:52:31,120
I'm not so dense as to
understand that.

1877
01:52:31,560 --> 01:52:35,360
It may seem somewhat
hypocritical, but I've said for

1878
01:52:35,360 --> 01:52:39,560
a while, we better start
figuring out how to live around

1879
01:52:39,560 --> 01:52:42,720
each other, right, Gathered like
minded people.

1880
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:47,960
Because if I think there's also
this, this misconception of,

1881
01:52:48,320 --> 01:52:52,200
well, when the hard times come,
right, if if you're LDS, you're

1882
01:52:52,200 --> 01:52:56,720
like, OK, when the hard times
come, we'll just all figure it

1883
01:52:56,720 --> 01:53:01,960
out at that point, right?
A lot of fundamentalists have

1884
01:53:01,960 --> 01:53:05,000
the same point of view.
I tend to be the other

1885
01:53:05,000 --> 01:53:07,920
direction, like we better figure
this out now.

1886
01:53:08,920 --> 01:53:12,760
Right.
So that when it's time we can't

1887
01:53:13,120 --> 01:53:15,360
right.
It's it's kind of like working

1888
01:53:15,360 --> 01:53:18,360
on the play and football that
you really need in the fourth

1889
01:53:18,360 --> 01:53:21,680
quarter that you never practiced
and you're like OK we'll just

1890
01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:25,840
roll out and do this.
And so I, I, I've, I've, I've

1891
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:29,560
been feeling for a while that
that while it yes it may be hard

1892
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:32,720
to gather around like minded
people and and get this done.

1893
01:53:33,400 --> 01:53:36,880
We better start understanding
these principles very quickly,

1894
01:53:37,280 --> 01:53:40,720
at least if we have the
understanding of the principles,

1895
01:53:41,320 --> 01:53:43,760
we have a point at which we can
start from.

1896
01:53:44,280 --> 01:53:48,840
And so in some ways, I feel like
the problem we have now is

1897
01:53:48,840 --> 01:53:52,800
almost the exact opposite of
what those original Saints back

1898
01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:56,200
in the Pioneer era, their
problem was, right?

1899
01:53:57,760 --> 01:54:01,040
I think if we really wanted to
be educated on all the

1900
01:54:01,040 --> 01:54:04,040
principles, well, now we don't
have the federal government

1901
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:06,360
trying to kick us out.
We don't have mobs kicking down

1902
01:54:06,360 --> 01:54:10,840
our door.
We're not, by and large, we're

1903
01:54:10,840 --> 01:54:13,800
not subsistence farmers, right.
We got some spare time.

1904
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:16,360
We can figure these principles
out, right?

1905
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:22,000
And and so it's it's the, you
know, the living it portion that

1906
01:54:22,000 --> 01:54:25,440
that's the toughest because a
lot of us aren't like minded and

1907
01:54:25,440 --> 01:54:28,000
if you're in the LDS church, you
gotta wait for those orders to

1908
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:29,680
come down from Salt Lake to do
it.

1909
01:54:32,240 --> 01:54:36,680
So in some ways the Saints could
could kind of live them but

1910
01:54:36,680 --> 01:54:40,360
didn't necessarily grasp grasp
the concept and the principle.

1911
01:54:40,360 --> 01:54:43,000
So we're in kind of a reverse
thing here, right?

1912
01:54:43,360 --> 01:54:46,320
Where if we really wanted to
know those principles, we could.

1913
01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:49,760
And and that's why I was so
excited when you when you texted

1914
01:54:49,760 --> 01:54:52,480
me and told me that 42 was the
next one coming out.

1915
01:54:52,920 --> 01:54:58,400
Because we we need to understand
these principles way better than

1916
01:54:58,440 --> 01:55:01,760
than we have up to this point.
Yeah.

1917
01:55:02,640 --> 01:55:06,440
And you know, I I really
appreciate that thought and and

1918
01:55:06,440 --> 01:55:07,880
I'd like to augment it a little
bit.

1919
01:55:09,880 --> 01:55:14,600
To my knowledge, Rocky Ridge
Order is the longest standing

1920
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:16,600
order in all the history of
Mormonism.

1921
01:55:17,720 --> 01:55:24,720
They started in the 70s I think
late 70s and so they've learned

1922
01:55:25,000 --> 01:55:30,400
an awful lot about how to live
the United order and they still

1923
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:37,640
struggle and and not in minor
situations they they have some

1924
01:55:37,640 --> 01:55:41,280
really every every few years.
You know they they have a few

1925
01:55:41,280 --> 01:55:44,600
months where they they've got to
debate some point of doctrine

1926
01:55:45,200 --> 01:55:49,280
and the idea that we'll be able
to just kind of get together and

1927
01:55:49,280 --> 01:55:51,080
we'll we'll just pull together
when we need to.

1928
01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:56,960
It's it's kind of laughable you
know when you're subsistence

1929
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:01,360
level living and and and I've
I've had first hand experience

1930
01:56:01,360 --> 01:56:07,720
with this last several years off
and on after I I quit my law

1931
01:56:07,720 --> 01:56:12,000
practice we we just hit some
really bad Financial Times and

1932
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:14,600
we've had our ups and downs but
we've had some really

1933
01:56:14,600 --> 01:56:20,480
subsistence level stuff And and
let me tell you when your focus

1934
01:56:20,520 --> 01:56:23,200
of the morning is to go
downstairs and start a fire to

1935
01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:27,960
heat the house and then your
next level is to you know try

1936
01:56:27,960 --> 01:56:32,280
and figure out how are you going
to pay this bill and how are you

1937
01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:34,920
going to get enough food to get
you the rest of the the month.

1938
01:56:35,640 --> 01:56:39,360
You don't have time to be
sitting down and saying this

1939
01:56:39,960 --> 01:56:42,160
function of our united order is
not working very well.

1940
01:56:42,160 --> 01:56:43,400
How do we make it more
efficient?

1941
01:56:44,080 --> 01:56:47,240
Right.
You know and brother so and so

1942
01:56:47,240 --> 01:56:50,080
really offended me because he
was saying because Jesus is

1943
01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:52,720
Jehovah, even though I don't
believe that he keeps insisting

1944
01:56:52,720 --> 01:56:55,040
on it and now he's saying
because of that he wants to do

1945
01:56:55,040 --> 01:56:58,760
this thing and he interprets the
scripture this way and that's

1946
01:56:58,760 --> 01:57:00,640
going to completely change how
we do our order.

1947
01:57:01,360 --> 01:57:05,320
You think you're going to just
move on past that easily?

1948
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:09,360
No way.
You know, the closest I've seen

1949
01:57:09,360 --> 01:57:13,120
to that is, is in Missouri.
They have very strong doctrinal

1950
01:57:13,120 --> 01:57:16,680
disagreements in their community
from time to time, and yet they

1951
01:57:16,680 --> 01:57:20,920
are so awesome to throw that
aside and say brother so and so

1952
01:57:20,920 --> 01:57:26,000
needs a load of mulch in his
yard and three hours later

1953
01:57:26,000 --> 01:57:28,680
somebody's got a low emulch
that's in your yard and

1954
01:57:29,000 --> 01:57:31,440
doctrinally different or not,
they don't care.

1955
01:57:31,480 --> 01:57:35,360
They love each other and so, you
know, you want to learn to do

1956
01:57:35,360 --> 01:57:36,800
that.
Those are the people that I've

1957
01:57:36,800 --> 01:57:41,120
seen that know how to do it, but
that doesn't come overnight.

1958
01:57:41,880 --> 01:57:45,440
No, that comes.
With yeah, they've been they've

1959
01:57:45,440 --> 01:57:48,840
been going at that for a couple
few decades now and they're

1960
01:57:48,840 --> 01:57:51,240
still struggling in a lot of
ways.

1961
01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:54,840
But they're really good.
It's at those basics of helping

1962
01:57:54,840 --> 01:57:57,800
each other.
But even then, you know, I I ran

1963
01:57:57,800 --> 01:58:00,960
a grocery store there and and we
were, you know, working with

1964
01:58:00,960 --> 01:58:05,920
people to exchange goods and you
know, get this resource from

1965
01:58:05,920 --> 01:58:08,320
this person, this resource and
try and make connections and

1966
01:58:08,320 --> 01:58:10,440
make things happen a little bit
better than they were there.

1967
01:58:10,960 --> 01:58:14,040
And you know, some systems they
already had in place, they're

1968
01:58:14,040 --> 01:58:16,040
doing great.
But some systems there's nothing

1969
01:58:16,040 --> 01:58:18,440
there.
And you're trying to find out

1970
01:58:18,960 --> 01:58:21,640
who can we get eggs from, you
know?

1971
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:27,080
And whatever the situation is,
it takes effort and work to get

1972
01:58:27,080 --> 01:58:29,720
the system where somebody's
making enough eggs for the

1973
01:58:29,720 --> 01:58:33,000
community, even if everybody has
one or two chickens of their

1974
01:58:33,000 --> 01:58:37,240
own, because, you know, they're
they might need 100 chickens and

1975
01:58:37,240 --> 01:58:39,640
they only have 50 or whatever
the situation is.

1976
01:58:40,240 --> 01:58:44,800
Those types of pragmatic things
take a lot of your time and to

1977
01:58:44,800 --> 01:58:47,920
think that, oh, we'll just pull
together when we need to and

1978
01:58:47,920 --> 01:58:49,480
make it happen.
No, you won't.

1979
01:58:50,680 --> 01:58:54,280
We will sure want to and we will
sure hope to.

1980
01:58:54,400 --> 01:58:58,040
But it's just things, things
like that don't just pull

1981
01:58:58,040 --> 01:59:00,760
together simply, it's not that
easy.

1982
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:04,480
Ask anybody in a management
situation, you know how easy it

1983
01:59:04,480 --> 01:59:07,840
is to manage people.
Or ask a polygamist with five

1984
01:59:07,840 --> 01:59:10,080
wives how easy is it to manage
your family?

1985
01:59:10,480 --> 01:59:13,920
And they're not going to give
you a pat two second answer And

1986
01:59:14,280 --> 01:59:17,400
and that's, you know, when you
get in the survival mode and

1987
01:59:17,400 --> 01:59:19,680
everything's falling apart and
all of a sudden you realize,

1988
01:59:19,680 --> 01:59:24,120
wow, we we don't have anybody.
The manufacturers metal stuff

1989
01:59:24,120 --> 01:59:27,960
and I need a Smith.
What am I going to do that's

1990
01:59:27,960 --> 01:59:30,560
going to be 3 days of
researching for you or four days

1991
01:59:30,560 --> 01:59:34,840
a week or you know and then you
might have trouble getting them

1992
01:59:34,840 --> 01:59:36,200
to do it because they're
backlogged.

1993
01:59:36,240 --> 01:59:38,640
It's just that the solutions
aren't that simple.

1994
01:59:40,000 --> 01:59:44,080
We really do need to be banding
together more now like you're

1995
01:59:44,080 --> 01:59:45,840
saying.
And and I've seen a lot of

1996
01:59:45,840 --> 01:59:48,520
people move by the spirit to try
and do different things to get

1997
01:59:48,880 --> 01:59:50,360
groups to work together that
way.

1998
01:59:50,920 --> 01:59:54,240
And I I think it's necessary and
commendable.

1999
01:59:54,240 --> 01:59:58,040
I'm I'm super supportive of any
of those efforts at whatever

2000
01:59:58,040 --> 02:00:01,480
level.
You know, I've got a lot of

2001
02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:05,920
doctrinal disagreements with
Lebara Knights and with the

2002
02:00:05,920 --> 02:00:10,360
Kingston Knights and whatever.
But I don't care at some level

2003
02:00:10,360 --> 02:00:12,640
if they're trying to live the
gospel the best they can.

2004
02:00:13,200 --> 02:00:15,840
You know if if if they're just
saying I'm just trying to get

2005
02:00:15,840 --> 02:00:19,400
closer to father, then put it,
put that aside.

2006
02:00:19,560 --> 02:00:22,200
I can.
I can put shoulder to shoulder

2007
02:00:22,200 --> 02:00:24,800
with you and dig a ditch.
I can shoulder, shoulder with

2008
02:00:24,800 --> 02:00:26,960
you and.
You know, research something for

2009
02:00:26,960 --> 02:00:30,400
you so that we can talk about,
you know, the best way to

2010
02:00:30,400 --> 02:00:33,160
approach the situation or
whatever.

2011
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:35,920
You know, share our talents
together in any type of a

2012
02:00:35,920 --> 02:00:38,320
fashion.
There's, you know, we work with

2013
02:00:38,320 --> 02:00:40,400
Babylon all the time.
Why can't we work with each

2014
02:00:40,400 --> 02:00:43,280
other?
You believe some doctrinal

2015
02:00:43,280 --> 02:00:44,800
thing.
I don't because you think you

2016
02:00:44,800 --> 02:00:47,280
got priests, took keys from a
guy who thinks you know a a

2017
02:00:47,280 --> 02:00:50,240
schwindler.
Who cares?

2018
02:00:50,760 --> 02:00:53,520
You know, I can still.
I can still associate with you.

2019
02:00:54,120 --> 02:00:56,720
We can still be friends.
You know, I've got friends who

2020
02:00:56,720 --> 02:00:58,280
are pagans.
So why can't I have a friend

2021
02:00:58,280 --> 02:01:01,240
who's Lebaronite?
Why can't I have a friend who's

2022
02:01:01,240 --> 02:01:03,400
kinks tonight?
Just because we disagree about

2023
02:01:03,400 --> 02:01:06,440
who holds the keys or what keys
they hold or whatever.

2024
02:01:06,440 --> 02:01:08,240
And So what?
It's just.

2025
02:01:08,240 --> 02:01:12,280
It's just.
Dude, you're you're you're

2026
02:01:12,320 --> 02:01:15,920
you're explaining exactly what I
meant when I said we may not be

2027
02:01:15,920 --> 02:01:18,600
able to hug it out on Sundays,
but we better figure out how to

2028
02:01:18,600 --> 02:01:21,440
work together on Saturdays.
Yeah, 'cause.

2029
02:01:21,520 --> 02:01:24,040
Exactly.
Because I feel like it's it's

2030
02:01:24,600 --> 02:01:28,440
it's getting time.
We, we, everyone I talk to,

2031
02:01:29,760 --> 02:01:32,280
everyone that I have an
opportunity to sit down and talk

2032
02:01:32,280 --> 02:01:34,640
with all describe the same
feeling.

2033
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:38,960
It feels like our society is
hurtling towards an event.

2034
02:01:39,840 --> 02:01:42,240
What that event is, I have no
idea.

2035
02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:45,320
But I can tell you from the
general feeling, it ain't going

2036
02:01:45,320 --> 02:01:48,800
to be great.
And so this is the time to kind

2037
02:01:48,800 --> 02:01:53,520
of prepare and and I would say
start with just learning these

2038
02:01:53,520 --> 02:01:57,280
principles.
Go get Drew's annotated version

2039
02:01:57,280 --> 02:02:00,600
of the Doctrine and Covenants
and sit down and read that

2040
02:02:00,600 --> 02:02:02,640
thing.
Read not only what's in your

2041
02:02:02,640 --> 02:02:05,720
Doctrine and Covenants but read
what the early Brethren were

2042
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:09,280
talking about because they lived
through it.

2043
02:02:09,280 --> 02:02:12,600
They heard Joseph talk and they
will have insights that we

2044
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:16,040
aren't necessarily Privy to
until we read those things.

2045
02:02:16,240 --> 02:02:19,560
But dude, good stuff.
I don't think we've ever I've

2046
02:02:19,560 --> 02:02:23,480
ever done quite this deep of a
dive on on consecration and and

2047
02:02:23,480 --> 02:02:26,760
United Order before.
So good, good stuff.

2048
02:02:26,760 --> 02:02:28,680
Thanks for thanks for coming on
again, man.

2049
02:02:29,520 --> 02:02:31,040
You bet.
Super glad to do it.

2050
02:02:31,040 --> 02:02:36,720
And and you know, I I just, I am
so grateful for what you're

2051
02:02:36,720 --> 02:02:39,400
doing.
And I'm so grateful to see other

2052
02:02:39,400 --> 02:02:41,360
people out there doing the
similar stuff.

2053
02:02:41,360 --> 02:02:44,440
You know, just talking about
these things, airing him out.

2054
02:02:44,440 --> 02:02:49,240
I listened to the debate between
Taylor and Was it Michael Ness

2055
02:02:49,240 --> 02:02:52,760
you?
Know there was 1 Jacob Vedrine.

2056
02:02:52,760 --> 02:02:55,400
And Jacob, Vedrine and Taylor
on.

2057
02:02:55,480 --> 02:02:58,760
Justin Frankham.
Yeah on on blacks in the

2058
02:02:58,760 --> 02:03:03,680
priesthood and you know I I
think that stuff is so good to

2059
02:03:03,680 --> 02:03:07,480
have out there and to see you
know what different people are

2060
02:03:07,480 --> 02:03:11,640
thinking and and stretch our
minds a little bit and and just

2061
02:03:11,640 --> 02:03:15,680
just to open that dialogue
there's so much anti Brigamite

2062
02:03:15,680 --> 02:03:20,160
stuff out there there's so much
anti Mormon stuff out there it's

2063
02:03:20,200 --> 02:03:25,080
to have a faithful venues where
people are disagreeing but

2064
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:29,160
trying to come to the truth.
I I'm just I'm so grateful to

2065
02:03:29,160 --> 02:03:33,240
see it out there.
I I personally don't do well

2066
02:03:33,480 --> 02:03:36,960
listening to podcast regularly I
it just doesn't fit my work very

2067
02:03:36,960 --> 02:03:39,320
well.
I'm I'm writing and thinking all

2068
02:03:39,320 --> 02:03:43,000
the time my brain gets clogged
and I've got to you know listen

2069
02:03:43,000 --> 02:03:46,080
to some sci-fi fantasy or
something to get myself going

2070
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:50,560
but and I'm horrible with
auditory stuff but I I love that

2071
02:03:50,640 --> 02:03:54,200
that we've got the the venue for
for people that do and I know a

2072
02:03:54,200 --> 02:03:56,880
lot of people commute and that's
you know their mainstay of

2073
02:03:56,880 --> 02:04:00,640
learning and anyway super
grateful for it and glad to see

2074
02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:03,600
your your talents go in that
direction too.

2075
02:04:05,080 --> 02:04:09,160
Well, I sure appreciate that.
I I appreciate the sentiment and

2076
02:04:09,160 --> 02:04:13,160
and dude, our conversations, I
always enjoy them a ton.

2077
02:04:13,240 --> 02:04:15,480
I always end up learning weigh
something more.

2078
02:04:15,960 --> 02:04:19,280
So dude, let's keep in touch as
always.

2079
02:04:19,280 --> 02:04:21,960
And when you you crank out
something new, which should be

2080
02:04:21,960 --> 02:04:23,960
in about 6 hours, right?
I mean, if you keep.

2081
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:27,400
Yeah, I'm, I'm planning on it.
Six hours.

2082
02:04:27,800 --> 02:04:30,440
So we'll, we'll get you back on.
We'll talk about that as well.

2083
02:04:30,440 --> 02:04:32,680
Where can people find that
annotated version of the

2084
02:04:32,680 --> 02:04:35,920
Doctrine and Covenants?
So every everything is on

2085
02:04:35,920 --> 02:04:38,160
Amazon.
Everything's print on demand

2086
02:04:38,160 --> 02:04:44,480
these days and if I could
mention mention on that I'm

2087
02:04:44,480 --> 02:04:48,760
doing the entire Doctrine of
Covenants and dozens like I

2088
02:04:48,800 --> 02:04:51,040
think there's 60 or 70 or
something unpublished

2089
02:04:51,040 --> 02:04:53,560
revelations all annotated in the
same way.

2090
02:04:53,560 --> 02:04:56,800
Eventually, as part of this
project, I'm I'm doing them

2091
02:04:56,800 --> 02:05:01,520
digitally so everything's
hyperlinked so you can look at

2092
02:05:01,520 --> 02:05:05,280
stuff super fast.
I've got a video on on how that

2093
02:05:05,280 --> 02:05:08,560
works on Forgot Mormon teaching
on Facebook.

2094
02:05:09,360 --> 02:05:13,160
But I'm I'm ultimately going to
be doing this on a whole series.

2095
02:05:13,680 --> 02:05:16,560
And so if there are any of our
listeners, readers, whatever who

2096
02:05:16,560 --> 02:05:19,880
are reading DNC 76 Annotated,
whether it's Joseph Smith

2097
02:05:19,880 --> 02:05:23,360
edition or Early brother or
whatever, if they're formatting

2098
02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:28,120
things or something you'd like
to see change or different, I am

2099
02:05:28,120 --> 02:05:32,680
super open to critique,
criticism, whatever.

2100
02:05:33,040 --> 02:05:36,360
I'm not super happy with every
little detail myself and I'm

2101
02:05:36,360 --> 02:05:40,120
just I I don't know how to
change stuff because of the

2102
02:05:40,120 --> 02:05:45,480
project I'm doing is so huge.
But if if anybody has has

2103
02:05:45,480 --> 02:05:49,600
thoughts that way understand I'm
super open to ideas and thought.

2104
02:05:49,600 --> 02:05:53,200
I want this to be accessible to
a teenager to read and and

2105
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:57,760
understand and follow and learn.
And I I'm especially sensitive

2106
02:05:57,760 --> 02:05:59,720
for the new generation.
That's why I'm doing digital

2107
02:05:59,720 --> 02:06:03,480
versions.
But I I anyway, just want to

2108
02:06:03,480 --> 02:06:07,280
throw that out there that I'm.
I'm open to any ideas of how to

2109
02:06:07,280 --> 02:06:12,680
make it better so that the final
product for the the whole

2110
02:06:12,920 --> 02:06:16,400
Doctrine Covenants when it's
done is something that feeds the

2111
02:06:16,400 --> 02:06:19,440
needs of everybody.
Whether it's the mom who's not

2112
02:06:19,440 --> 02:06:23,080
super well educated, or it's dad
who's got a PhD, or it's a

2113
02:06:23,080 --> 02:06:26,320
teenager just trying to figure
out where am I in

2114
02:06:26,320 --> 02:06:30,760
fundamentalism, you know, Right.
So anyway, I just, I just wanted

2115
02:06:30,760 --> 02:06:37,120
to throw that out there and
reviews help help me somewhere.

2116
02:06:37,120 --> 02:06:42,000
It helps, helps me get people
who are not familiar with what

2117
02:06:42,000 --> 02:06:46,080
I'm doing to buy, but it also
gives me the opportunity to know

2118
02:06:46,080 --> 02:06:49,480
what my readers will want so
that I can put out more.

2119
02:06:50,320 --> 02:06:54,160
I put up four books last year in
10 editions of new books total

2120
02:06:54,600 --> 02:06:57,720
and next year I want to match
that, do something the same.

2121
02:06:57,720 --> 02:07:01,880
I've got some really big some
topics coming up, and any

2122
02:07:01,880 --> 02:07:05,200
critique and feedback I've got
will just make what I'm doing

2123
02:07:05,200 --> 02:07:08,600
better for for everybody else.
So anyway.

2124
02:07:09,600 --> 02:07:11,880
Perfect.
All right, everybody, go.

2125
02:07:11,880 --> 02:07:16,320
Go to Amazon, Get your version
of of of the annotated version

2126
02:07:16,320 --> 02:07:18,320
of the Doctrine and Covenants.
Drew.

2127
02:07:18,880 --> 02:07:21,600
Dude, it's epic as always.
And we'll talk at you next time,

2128
02:07:21,600 --> 02:07:23,480
all right?
All right.

2129
02:07:23,480 --> 02:07:24,640
Sounds great.
God bless.

2130
02:07:24,640 --> 02:07:26,120
Take care.
Bye everybody.

2131
02:07:56,960 --> 02:07:59,680
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.